I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.

And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.

https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).

Also... Steve Baker's a member FFS.

Rather disappointed by Lembit Opik, but maybe I should just accept that a lot of the LibDems are libertarian cranks[1]. Then again he's been expelled from the LibDems.

Glad I never joined (MAG, I did join the LibDems, briefly)

[1] They've been described as a group of two parts; Hippies and Libertarians.

On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.
>
> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>
> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>
> Also... Steve Baker's a member FFS.
>
> Rather disappointed by Lembit Opik, but maybe I should just accept that a lot of the LibDems are libertarian cranks[1]. Then again he's been expelled from the LibDems.
>
> Glad I never joined (MAG, I did join the LibDems, briefly)
>
> [1] They've been described as a group of two parts; Hippies and Libertarians.

Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.
>
> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>
> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>
> Also... Steve Baker's a member FFS.
>
> Rather disappointed by Lembit Opik, but maybe I should just accept that a lot of the LibDems are libertarian cranks[1]. Then again he's been expelled from the LibDems.
>
> Glad I never joined (MAG, I did join the LibDems, briefly)
>
> [1] They've been described as a group of two parts; Hippies and Libertarians.

Yep, in one of the other places on the internet that I frequent, one of
the regulars asked why more weren't MAG members.

I told him.

It was a bit like the fun you have when a Conservative candidate knocks
on the door.
--
Gyp

Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
> gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.

Plenty available if you know where to ask.
WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.
--
http://www.netunix.com/

> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.
>
> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team’
>
> [1] They've been described as a group of two parts; Hippies and Libertarians.

In a past life I was a MAG local rep. Fell out rather badly with the national committee and told them to spin on it.

On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 16:25:49 +0000, crn wrote:

> www.aaoil.co.uk

404 not found.

Scion <a.b@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> On Fri, 28 Jul 2023 16:25:49 +0000, crn wrote:
>
>> www.aaoil.co.uk
>
> 404 not found.

Works OK for me, try warteraviation.com

--
http://www.netunix.com/

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 3:07:19 PM UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.
>
> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
Colo(u)r me unsurprised. The whole "MAH FREEDUMB!" helmet thing
was always a pretty obvious attractant to the frankly unhinged.

--
WUN

On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 5:25:51 PM UTC+1, c...@nospam.com wrote:
> Pete Fisher <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
> > gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.
> Plenty available if you know where to ask.
> WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
> Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago.#

And rest my case.

--
WUN

On 7/28/2023 4:08 PM, WUN wrote:
> On Friday, July 28, 2023 at 3:07:19 PM UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.
>>
>> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>
> Colo(u)r me unsurprised. The whole "MAH FREEDUMB!" helmet thing
> was always a pretty obvious attractant to the frankly unhinged.
>
When the guy hit me on purpose* on the freeway, and I landed face first
on asphalt, I had a reason to wear a full-face helmet ALL the time on bikes.
Seems the rational thing to do.

*He was out on bail for murdering his wife and figured "what the hell?
What's one more dead body?" He was out on bail with a driving license
for another 2 years before he went to prison.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 28/07/2023 17:25, crn@nospam.com wrote:
> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
>> gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.
>
> Plenty available if you know where to ask.
> WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
> Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.

Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
E0. Not going to happen.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher wrote:

> the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock E0.  Not
> going to happen.

Before E10 came along, I believe the tesco momentum E5 used to be 0% in
practice (except in some refinery areas) tests showed it contained 2.5%
a year ago, it felt worth it for better mpg to me vs E10 (though of
course once you start playing that game you never know how much your
driving is affecting the economy).

But Texaco and Esso still were still 0% a year ago.

<https://www.youtube.com/@thefuelreviewer7451>

On 29/07/2023 08:41, Andy Burns wrote:
> Pete Fisher wrote:
>
>> the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock E0.  Not
>> going to happen.
>
> Before E10 came along, I believe the tesco momentum E5 used to be 0% in
> practice (except in some refinery areas) tests showed it contained 2.5%
> a year ago, it felt worth it for better mpg to me vs E10 (though of
> course once you start playing that game you never know how much your
> driving is affecting the economy).
>
> But Texaco and Esso still were still 0% a year ago.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/@thefuelreviewer7451>

I think Esso recently announced there would be no effective E0 even on
their stations in some areas that used to stock it.

My local Sainsburys used to give low results when tested but I can't
find the website that reports the tests any more.

Riders of ancient bikes with old rubber carb internals swear they must
have E0. Though in many cases, they could renew the fuel lines etc. -
but,but, originality!

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 29/07/2023 09:02, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 29/07/2023 08:41, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Pete Fisher wrote:
>>
>>> the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock E0.  Not
>>> going to happen.
>>
>> Before E10 came along, I believe the tesco momentum E5 used to be 0%
>> in practice (except in some refinery areas) tests showed it contained
>> 2.5% a year ago, it felt worth it for better mpg to me vs E10 (though
>> of course once you start playing that game you never know how much
>> your driving is affecting the economy).
>>
>> But Texaco and Esso still were still 0% a year ago.
>>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/@thefuelreviewer7451>
>
> I think Esso recently announced there would be no effective E0 even on
> their stations in some areas that used to stock it.
>
> My local Sainsburys used to give low results when tested but I can't
> find the website that reports the tests any more.
>
> Riders of ancient bikes with old rubber carb internals swear they must
> have E0. Though in many cases, they could renew the fuel lines etc. -
> but,but, originality!

Being an owner of two 'historic' bikes I have followed the whole E'x'
issue for some time but having little knowledge, or much understanding,
of the issues I did nothing but just kept putting in whatever the pump
supplied.

Recently however, I started to have a few running problems but since I
started using (snake oil alert) this stuff:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B085XJZY8N?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_product_details
things have got better and I feel comforted by the knowledge that I have
done something/tried. :-)

As an aside, I have great faith in millers products and use their engine
oils in my ancient boat engines and also their diesel additive for
swmbo's ancient van which really does make it run cleaner and smoother -
in fact cleaner than ever according to the MoT records.

HTH

Chris

--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 12:26:52 +0100, "chrisnd @ukrm" <chrisnd@privacy.net> wrote:

> snake oil alert

Of course, <doit tempter="Devil">it always goes without saying,
"There's that marvelous Marvel Mystery Oil,"</doit> which contributes
the *je ne sais quoi* of wintergreen toward improving the function of
Keihin carbs, but youse in the EU (or out of it) wouldn't know about
that.

I, myself, have indulged in aviation gasoline (avgas) for its lead
content. It was nice, but not worth the trip to fill up at a resort
boat landing.

--
Worst Case

On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.
>
> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>
> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>

Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?

MPG isn't usually that much better.
Oil changes ae more frequent.
Tyre life is radiclly less

[1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 30/07/2023 16:54, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>
> On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> I've never been a member.  Always saw them as cranks.
>>
>> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>>
>> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>>
>>
>
> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>
> MPG isn't usually that much better.
> Oil changes ae more frequent.
> Tyre life is radiclly less.
>
> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)
>
What I look on as 'bikes', motorcycles, etc nearly always have much
smaller engines. Anything over 500cc is, IMO, overkill. (though I'd have
another Vincent at the drop of a ha^h^h^helmet.) So it stands to reason
that they would pollute less. My 350 Matchless did 90 mpg when driven
all mimsylike.

In the case of a few of the bikes I've had the oil is on a 'total loss'
system, while others drank oil because they thought they were a
total-loss oiler (seemingly), while the chaincases of other SOBs needed
topping-up frequently. 2-strekes consumed oil as part of the fuel mix
and often progressed at the head of a cloud of smoke.

But compare those with a Rumi: 250cc twin with internals on a par with a
watchmaker's craft. No oil leaks and a lean petroil mixture - you'd
hardly know it was a twostroke.

Where tyre life is less it's down to a) silly acceleration b) ear'oling
c) thinner rubber in the first place.

But some of the better engineered

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:12:23 +0100, RustyHinge
<rusty.hinge@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:

>On 30/07/2023 16:54, YTC#1 wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>> I've never been a member.  Always saw them as cranks.
>>>
>>> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>>>
>>> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>>
>> MPG isn't usually that much better.
>> Oil changes ae more frequent.
>> Tyre life is radiclly less.
>>
>> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)
>>
>What I look on as 'bikes', motorcycles, etc nearly always have much
>smaller engines. Anything over 500cc is, IMO, overkill. (though I'd have
>another Vincent at the drop of a ha^h^h^helmet.) So it stands to reason
>that they would pollute less. My 350 Matchless did 90 mpg when driven
>all mimsylike.

Size of engine only makes a small difference directly, though there
may be secondary effects. Bike engines tend to be more highly tuned
than car ones. A 600 these days can make as much power as a 1200cc
car.

Older bikes may have been more economical (no personal experience) but
they also had limited top-end power.

Bike engines are getting bigger because it is easier to make, say
110hp, from a 1200 twin than a 1000 twin and still meet modern
emissions targets.

>In the case of a few of the bikes I've had the oil is on a 'total loss'
>system, while others drank oil because they thought they were a
>total-loss oiler (seemingly), while the chaincases of other SOBs needed
>topping-up frequently. 2-strekes consumed oil as part of the fuel mix
>and often progressed at the head of a cloud of smoke.

It's an interesting question: in 6000 miles, which uses more oil, a
two-stroke that chucks it out of the exhaust, or a four-stroke with
oil changes? Of course, 2-strokes have gearbox oil to change as well.

>Where tyre life is less it's down to a) silly acceleration b) ear'oling
>c) thinner rubber in the first place.

Actualy stickier rubber that allows vastly better grip wet or dry.

For many, acceleration is where it's at, and I'm sure that applied in
the past as well. If they'd had the power that modern bikes have, I'm
sure they'd have used it.

What does distress me is how heavy bikes are still.

--

-Pip

On 30/07/2023 18:33, Pipl wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:12:23 +0100, RustyHinge
> <rusty.hinge@foobar.girolle.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 30/07/2023 16:54, YTC#1 wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>>> I've never been a member.  Always saw them as cranks.
>>>>
>>>> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>>>
>>> MPG isn't usually that much better.
>>> Oil changes ae more frequent.
>>> Tyre life is radiclly less.
>>>
>>> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)
>>>
>> What I look on as 'bikes', motorcycles, etc nearly always have much
>> smaller engines. Anything over 500cc is, IMO, overkill. (though I'd have
>> another Vincent at the drop of a ha^h^h^helmet.) So it stands to reason
>> that they would pollute less. My 350 Matchless did 90 mpg when driven
>> all mimsylike.
>
> Size of engine only makes a small difference directly, though there
> may be secondary effects. Bike engines tend to be more highly tuned
> than car ones. A 600 these days can make as much power as a 1200cc
> car.
>
> Older bikes may have been more economical (no personal experience) but
> they also had limited top-end power.
>
> Bike engines are getting bigger because it is easier to make, say
> 110hp, from a 1200 twin than a 1000 twin and still meet modern
> emissions targets.
>
>> In the case of a few of the bikes I've had the oil is on a 'total loss'
>> system, while others drank oil because they thought they were a
>> total-loss oiler (seemingly), while the chaincases of other SOBs needed
>> topping-up frequently. 2-strekes consumed oil as part of the fuel mix
>> and often progressed at the head of a cloud of smoke.
>
> It's an interesting question: in 6000 miles, which uses more oil, a
> two-stroke that chucks it out of the exhaust, or a four-stroke with
> oil changes? Of course, 2-strokes have gearbox oil to change as well.
>
>> Where tyre life is less it's down to a) silly acceleration b) ear'oling
>> c) thinner rubber in the first place.
>
> Actualy stickier rubber that allows vastly better grip wet or dry.
>
> For many, acceleration is where it's at, and I'm sure that applied in
> the past as well. If they'd had the power that modern bikes have, I'm
> sure they'd have used it.

Depends what era you're talking about: look at the spec of the Vincent
Black Lightning (1953 IIRC)

> What does distress me is how heavy bikes are still.

Disclaimer: I don't have shares in Rumi - if indeed they still exist...

The Rumi was all magnesium, the obvious parts excepted.

In ye olden dayes we used to lighten bikes by drilling holes in engine
plates, replacing mudguards with aluminium ones, removing anything
unnecessary, etc.

Judiciously done, a 'bike could safely be lightened by many pounds.
(Works for metric, too!)

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 30/07/2023 16:54, YTC#1 wrote:
>
>
> On 28/07/2023 15:07, Stephen Packer wrote:
>> I've never been a member.  Always saw them as cranks.
>>
>> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>>
>> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).
>>
>
> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>
> MPG isn't usually that much better.
> Oil changes ae more frequent.
> Tyre life is radiclly less

I tend to make this point too.

MAG also advocates against what they refer to as "anti tamper"
legislation which, like it or not, is there primarily to ensure that
emissions control measures remain in place.

--
Gyp

YTC#1 wrote:
> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>
> MPG isn't usually that much better.
> Oil changes ae more frequent.
> Tyre life is radiclly less
>
> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)

I think the argument is that for traffic-congested areas like the ULEZ,a
vehicle that isn't spending most of its time either idling while
stationary or accelerating away from rest will be less damaging.

Plus, replacing cars with bikes means less congestion for the remaining
cars.

On 01/08/2023 11:39, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>>
>> MPG isn't usually that much better.
>> Oil changes ae more frequent.
>> Tyre life is radiclly less
>>
>> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)
>
> I think the argument is that for traffic-congested areas like the ULEZ,a
> vehicle that isn't spending most of its time either idling while
> stationary or accelerating away from rest will be less damaging.
>
> Plus, replacing cars with bikes means less congestion for the remaining
> cars.

All true, given most cars still have only one occupant. Car sharing has
never really caught on.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 01/08/2023 11:48, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 11:39, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>> YTC#1 wrote:
>>> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>>>
>>> MPG isn't usually that much better.
>>> Oil changes ae more frequent.
>>> Tyre life is radiclly less
>>>
>>> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)
>>
>> I think the argument is that for traffic-congested areas like the
>> ULEZ,a vehicle that isn't spending most of its time either idling
>> while stationary or accelerating away from rest will be less damaging.
>>
>> Plus, replacing cars with bikes means less congestion for the
>> remaining cars.
>
> All true, given most cars still have only one occupant. Car sharing has
> never really caught on.
>

Neither has bike sharing :-)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 01/08/2023 11:48, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 01/08/2023 11:39, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>> YTC#1 wrote:
>>> Do bikes[1] really pollute less than cars?
>>>
>>> MPG isn't usually that much better.
>>> Oil changes ae more frequent.
>>> Tyre life is radiclly less
>>>
>>> [1] Motorbikes, not push bikes :-)
>>
>> I think the argument is that for traffic-congested areas like the
>> ULEZ,a vehicle that isn't spending most of its time either idling
>> while stationary or accelerating away from rest will be less damaging.
>>
>> Plus, replacing cars with bikes means less congestion for the
>> remaining cars.
>
> All true, given most cars still have only one occupant. Car sharing has
> never really caught on.

Hrrrmph - tell that to the doggers.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 29/07/2023 07:03, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 28/07/2023 17:25, crn@nospam.com wrote:
>> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
>>> gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.
>>
>> Plenty available if you know where to ask.
>> WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
>> Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.
>
>
> Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
> E0.  Not going to happen.
>
>

I wish they would though. I think it's a reasonable request. I think
there's listtle evidence that ethanol is "green". It's not just fuel
lines. Plastic/fibreglass tanks, crank seals etc. as well. Many places
sell stuff that claims to be ethanol proof and it subsequently turns out
not to be.

I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
simple to dispose.

--
/Simon