On 02/08/2023 10:18, siwilson wrote:
> On 29/07/2023 07:03, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 28/07/2023 17:25, crn@nospam.com wrote:
>>> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
>>>> gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.
>>>
>>> Plenty available if you know where to ask.
>>> WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
>>> Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.
>>
>>
>> Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
>> E0.  Not going to happen.
>>
>>
>
> I wish they would though. I think it's a reasonable request. I think
> there's listtle evidence that ethanol is "green". It's not just fuel
> lines. Plastic/fibreglass tanks, crank seals etc. as well. Many places
> sell stuff that claims to be ethanol proof and it subsequently turns out
> not to be.
>
> I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
> problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
> simple to dispose.
>

Hmm. I've run the Morini on E5 when I can get it, or E10 if not, for
years without any obvious effects, even though often left with fuel in a
half full tank over winter. The 57 Gilera for 5 years, but pretty much
exclusively on E5 TBF (and the SO MX5). I give the Morini and Gilera a
splash of 'lead replacement' snake oil occasionally. Probably will do
the same regime for the Honda.

Absolutely the case that measures need to be taken to ensure the
'protection grade' of E5 is available without travelling miles and miles.

The tank issue is indeed a real one. The MRC got some alloy tanks made
for Darts for that reason.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 15:07:19 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
> I've never been a member. Always saw them as cranks.

Eye Oop, I'm having the requisite couple of days off morphine, also got some rather embarrassing reading glasses/magnifying lenses O^O

What I found was a bunch of people on rat bikes, C-grade choppers and "bobbers", leather waistcoats, smoking roll-ups and A_Lot of tattoos
<shudder>

> And now... part of the climate change denial action 'team'.
>
> https://www.desmog.com/motorcycle-action-group/#:~:text=MAG%20opposes%20emissions%20charges%20on,Low%20Emission%20Zone%20(ULEZ).

Don't tell me the idol has feet of clay? you can't be a fan of ULEZ?
a) it's ideological and so gets *everything* wrong
partially I expect because...
b) it's really a sleeper to bring in the camera technology required to implement road tolling.

> [1] They've been described as a group of two parts; Hippies and Libertarians.

Jeez, there is nothing whatsoever Libertarian about the LibDems.

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 10:18:07 UTC+1, siwilson wrote:
> On 29/07/2023 07:03, Pete Fisher wrote:
> > On 28/07/2023 17:25, c...@nospam.com wrote:
> >> Pete Fisher <pe...@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
> >>> gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.
> >>
> >> Plenty available if you know where to ask.
> >> WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
> >> Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.
> >
> >
> > Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
> > E0. Not going to happen.
> >
> >
> I wish they would though. I think it's a reasonable request. I think
> there's listtle evidence that ethanol is "green". It's not just fuel
> lines. Plastic/fibreglass tanks, crank seals etc. as well. Many places
> sell stuff that claims to be ethanol proof and it subsequently turns out
> not to be.
>
> I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
> problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
> simple to dispose.

Ethanol in petrol is another one of those insane ideas, introduced by idealogs, which is both pointless and counter productive.
Every hectare churning out corn for ethanol fuel additive should be dedicated to growing human foods.

By now every car and van sold should a petrol electric hybrid. The non plug-in, electric motor driven type.
Every HGV tractor unit should also be an electric motor driven petrol hybrid.
These things were achievable, not requiring of huge lithium battery packs.
The reduction (already) in fuel consumption and pollution would have been colossal.

Also our Evo X really wants 99 octane ethanol free fuel!

siwilson wrote:
> I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
> problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
> simple to dispose.

https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/limoncello

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 12:29:02 UTC+1, Hog wrote:

> Ethanol in petrol is another one of those insane ideas, introduced by idealogs, which is both pointless and counter productive.
> Every hectare churning out corn for ethanol fuel additive should be dedicated to growing human foods.
>
> By now every car and van sold should a petrol electric hybrid. The non plug-in, electric motor driven type.

I don't really have a position on whether ethanol in petrol is good or not from an environmental PoV.

I'm a fan of electric cars, now being on my third (Vauxhall Ampera(Chevy Volt), Nissan Leaf, Nissan Leaf).

For most of June and July my car's been (mostly) powered by my solar panels..

> Every HGV tractor unit should also be an electric motor driven petrol hybrid.
> These things were achievable, not requiring of huge lithium battery packs..

I get large batteries need a lot of resources but I'm not convinced that the resources are necessarily excessive when looked at the lifetime cost.

> The reduction (already) in fuel consumption and pollution would have been colossal.

Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.

siwilson <siwilson@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 29/07/2023 07:03, Pete Fisher wrote:

>> Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
>> E0.  Not going to happen.

> I wish they would though. I think it's a reasonable request. I think
> there's listtle evidence that ethanol is "green". It's not just fuel
> lines. Plastic/fibreglass tanks, crank seals etc. as well. Many places
> sell stuff that claims to be ethanol proof and it subsequently turns out
> not to be.

<cough>
Ducati petrol tanks, anyone?

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

Hog <york996@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ethanol in petrol is another one of those insane ideas, introduced
> by idealogs, which is both pointless and counter productive.
> Every hectare churning out corn for ethanol fuel additive should be
> dedicated to growing human foods.

It isn't often we agree but this is one of those times.

Adding oxygenates to gasoline might have made _some_ sense as an
antipollution measure back in the days of carburetors and early
non-closed loop fuel injection.

Since the onset of closed loop FI systems with sophisticated catalytic
converters and lambda sensors, it has made no sense whatsoever, and
as far as I can see it is simply a subsidy program for farmers and
big agribusiness, nothing more.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 02/08/2023 12:29, Hog wrote:

> Ethanol in petrol is another one of those insane ideas, introduced by idealogs, which is both pointless and counter productive.
> Every hectare churning out corn for ethanol fuel additive should be dedicated to growing human foods.
>
It probably seemed a good idea at the time.

> By now every car and van sold should a petrol electric hybrid. The non plug-in, electric motor driven type.
> Every HGV tractor unit should also be an electric motor driven petrol hybrid.
> These things were achievable, not requiring of huge lithium battery packs.
> The reduction (already) in fuel consumption and pollution would have been colossal.
>

GPWM

> Also our Evo X really wants 99 octane ethanol free fuel!

As pragmatic as ever, I see.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 02/08/2023 12:10, Hog wrote:

> b) it's really a sleeper to bring in the camera technology required to implement road tolling.
>
THIS.

Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 14:05:24 UTC+1, Mark Olson wrote:
> Hog <yor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Ethanol in petrol is another one of those insane ideas, introduced
> > by idealogs, which is both pointless and counter productive.
> > Every hectare churning out corn for ethanol fuel additive should be
> > dedicated to growing human foods.
> It isn't often we agree but this is one of those times.

I can't be responsible for your hangups, dude

> Adding oxygenates to gasoline might have made _some_ sense as an
> antipollution measure back in the days of carburetors and early
> non-closed loop fuel injection.
>
> Since the onset of closed loop FI systems with sophisticated catalytic
> converters and lambda sensors, it has made no sense whatsoever, and
> as far as I can see it is simply a subsidy program for farmers and
> big agribusiness, nothing more.

Turning food producing land towards (more valuable) fuel producing ethanol was entirely the work of giant agri-business producers. Aided by their stooges in government and low IQ green campaigners.
In a world of starving millions every hectare of food producing land should be employed in natural self sustaining agricultural rotation. To lower prices, reduce chemical use and increase overall production volumes. Also increasing the number of people employed in agriculture.

The same insanity is directed against forestry by those same low IQ types.
Grown trees don't sequester much carbon, *growing* trees do so and on a remarkable scale.
The great softwood forests of the world should be felled (in rotation). Composite wood products are now superior to concrete for many building projects. Concrete production being a major carbon producer.
Hundreds of millions of hectares of new growth forestry and the significant replacement of concrete is one of the top three most effective things which could be done to stabilise the atmosphere.

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 14:30:58 UTC+1, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 12:29, Hog wrote:
>
> > Ethanol in petrol is another one of those insane ideas, introduced by idealogs, which is both pointless and counter productive.
> > Every hectare churning out corn for ethanol fuel additive should be dedicated to growing human foods.
> >
> It probably seemed a good idea at the time.
> > By now every car and van sold should a petrol electric hybrid. The non plug-in, electric motor driven type.
> > Every HGV tractor unit should also be an electric motor driven petrol hybrid.
> > These things were achievable, not requiring of huge lithium battery packs.
> > The reduction (already) in fuel consumption and pollution would have been colossal.
> >
> GPWM

The Toyota Prius was launched in 1997. in 25 years all cars and light vans could have been made hybrids.
That is to say electric motor driven. Small batteries and ultra-capacitors. Petrol powered generators (sometimes called range-extenders).
Electric motor designs that do not use rare earth magnets.
Petrol generators, which may be extremely light 2T or rotary variants, running at a fixed set of RPM, which can be incredibly efficient.

The attempted switch to EV ignored the lack of clean electricity generation, the lack of grid capacity and the diabolical impact of massive scale lithium battery production.
I don't know if it's generally known yet but pure EV are proving difficult to impossible for accident repairs. The insurance industry are waking up.
I expect the 2030 target to crumble.

> > Also our Evo X really wants 99 octane ethanol free fuel!

> As pragmatic as ever, I see.

TBF it moves 1000 miles per year.

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:

> Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.

As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.

However we abandoned effective and competent government and business regulation long ago, if indeed it ever existed. We can be sure it is not going to improve.

On 8/2/2023 7:25 AM, Hog wrote:
>
> The Toyota Prius was launched in 1997. in 25 years all cars and light vans could have been made hybrids.

Global Warming/Climate Change was first described in the 1950's. The
Prius could have been launched long before 1997.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 15:32:29 UTC+1, Hog wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
>
> > Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.
> As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.

Oh, I don't question that. I was just surprised at how much energy is wasted through wearing out brake pads and generating heat in disks.

On 02/08/2023 10:18, siwilson wrote:
> On 29/07/2023 07:03, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 28/07/2023 17:25, crn@nospam.com wrote:
>>> Pete Fisher <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some are also covid deniers and 5G nuts. Some are convinced that the
>>>> gummint should be forced to ensure a supply of E0 petrol.
>>>
>>> Plenty available if you know where to ask.
>>> WARTER aviation UL91 or 100LL. www.aaoil.co.uk
>>> Availble for delivery in 55 and 195 litre drums.
>>
>>
>> Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
>> E0.  Not going to happen.
>>
>>
>
> I wish they would though. I think it's a reasonable request. I think
> there's listtle evidence that ethanol is "green". It's not just fuel
> lines. Plastic/fibreglass tanks, crank seals etc. as well. Many places
> sell stuff that claims to be ethanol proof and it subsequently turns out
> not to be.
>
> I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
> problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
> simple to dispose.
>
<gulp>

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 02/08/2023 15:32, Hog wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
>
>> Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.
>
> As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.
>
> However we abandoned effective and competent government and business regulation long ago, if indeed it ever existed. We can be sure it is not going to improve.

BTW, you do realise that the ULEZ is far more about levels of NOx and
PM2.5s than CO2 ? Doesn't change the thrust of your argument.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 15:32, Hog wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>
>>> Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.
>> As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.
>>
>> However we abandoned effective and competent government and business regulation long ago, if indeed it ever existed. We can be sure it is not going to improve.
>
> BTW, you do realise that the ULEZ is far more about levels of NOx and
> PM2.5s than CO2 ? Doesn't change the thrust of your argument.

As is 'Euro [n]' legislation which for bikes, at least, has resulted in
new models having larger engines and worse fuel economy (and hence
more CO2) in order to not reduce power output.

On 03/08/2023 10:31, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 02/08/2023 15:32, Hog wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car
>>>> burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use).
>>>> Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor
>>>> as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or
>>>> take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only
>>>> need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of
>>>> burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated
>>>> vehicle.
>>> As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997.
>>> Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades
>>> past.
>>>
>>> However we abandoned effective and competent government and business
>>> regulation long ago, if indeed it ever existed. We can be sure it is
>>> not going to improve.
>>
>> BTW, you do realise that the ULEZ is far more about levels of NOx and
>> PM2.5s than CO2 ? Doesn't change the thrust of your argument.
>
> As is 'Euro [n]' legislation which for bikes, at least, has resulted in
>  new models having larger engines and worse fuel economy (and hence
> more CO2) in order to not reduce power output.

Swings and roundabouts. The NOx and PM2.5 shorten life quicker than
global warming - for now at least.

As for diesels, their time as the power plant for just doing the school
run in an SUV should be numbered.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

On 02/08/2023 12:41, ogden wrote:
> siwilson wrote:
>> I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
>> problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
>> simple to dispose.
>
> https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/limoncello

Is that what you were testing out in Gedinne? Ethanol based limoncello!

On 02/08/2023 13:53, Mark Olson wrote:
> siwilson <siwilson@nodamnspamn.hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 29/07/2023 07:03, Pete Fisher wrote:
>
>>> Indeed, but the hardliners want at least some petrol stations to stock
>>> E0.  Not going to happen.
>
>> I wish they would though. I think it's a reasonable request. I think
>> there's listtle evidence that ethanol is "green". It's not just fuel
>> lines. Plastic/fibreglass tanks, crank seals etc. as well. Many places
>> sell stuff that claims to be ethanol proof and it subsequently turns out
>> not to be.
>
> <cough>
> Ducati petrol tanks, anyone?
>
.... and some Triumph models too.

On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 10:17:49 UTC+1, Pete Fisher wrote:
> On 02/08/2023 15:32, Hog wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
> >
> >> Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.
> >
> > As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.
> >
> > However we abandoned effective and competent government and business regulation long ago, if indeed it ever existed. We can be sure it is not going to improve.

> BTW, you do realise that the ULEZ is far more about levels of NOx and
> PM2.5s than CO2 ? Doesn't change the thrust of your argument.

Yes, but those are reduced commensurately with 80mpg+ vehicles, that weight 500kg less than an EV.
But I don't think ULEZ is really about NOx...

On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 21:36:04 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 15:32:29 UTC+1, Hog wrote:

> > As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.
> Oh, I don't question that. I was just surprised at how much energy is wasted through wearing out brake pads and generating heat in disks.

One must lose almost as much energy as has been pumped in, so yeah and wasting it, long after there were alternative, was stupid.

Do you know about Telma electromagnetic (eddy current) brakes? as deployed on Swiss buses since (at least) 1970. I was fascinated to find out about them during a first visit.

Our Evo has amazing brakes, built to live between full throttle and maximum braking. Huge vented fully floating Brembo disks on ally carriers, which generate silly amounts of heat, even though it's an aluminium body. Such a shame Mitsubishi didn't follow on with a hybrid XI with regen. 4WD with anti-yaw control (which made it unique) must be easier to do in 6 Axis IMU electronic drive.

Tim wrote:
> ogden wrote:
> > siwilson wrote:
> >> I've ended up making my own. Which ends up being another pollution
> >> problem because you end up with a surplus ethanol/water mix which ain't
> >> simple to dispose.
> >
> > https://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/limoncello
> Is that what you were testing out in Gedinne? Ethanol based limoncello!

No, that was an ethanol/ethanol mix.

Making limoncello is really what it's sold for though.

On 03/08/2023 13:42, Hog wrote:

> Do you know about Telma electromagnetic (eddy current) brakes? as deployed on Swiss buses since (at least) 1970. I was fascinated to find out about them during a first visit.

Electric trains and trams have been using eddy-current braking for more
than a century, but I don't know how long the back EMF has been used to
recharge accumulators. Quite a while, I would guess.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On 03/08/2023 13:16, Hog wrote:
> On Thursday, 3 August 2023 at 10:17:49 UTC+1, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 02/08/2023 15:32, Hog wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, 2 August 2023 at 13:29:45 UTC+1, Stephen Packer wrote:
>>>
>>>> Something that has staggered me is how much of the energy my car burns is recycled (loads of stats from the Nissan on energy use). Around 20-25% of the energy used is that gained from using the motor as a generator rather than brakes. That energy is the same (give or take) in all cars on the routes I take and I would guess would only need a small battery to store it and make use of it in place of burning petrol (or diesel) albeit at the cost of a more complicated vehicle.
>>>
>>> As I just mentioned to Pete, the Prius was launched in 1997. Electric drive and regen should have become the default two decades past.
>>>
>>> However we abandoned effective and competent government and business regulation long ago, if indeed it ever existed. We can be sure it is not going to improve.
>
>> BTW, you do realise that the ULEZ is far more about levels of NOx and
>> PM2.5s than CO2 ? Doesn't change the thrust of your argument.
>
> Yes, but those are reduced commensurately with 80mpg+ vehicles, that weight 500kg less than an EV.
>
> But I don't think ULEZ is really about NOx...

Not now, so much. I agree. Infrastructure for road pricing.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"