On 21.10.23 11:29, John Ashby wrote:
> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>
>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
>>> teachers do?
>>
>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole
>> generation who were not taught grammar at school.   Those people are
>> now teachers.  We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy
>> of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>>
>
> In part over-corrected. Fronted adverbials anyone?
>
> john

Yes please. Or not really. What were they called before?

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>
>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>> past being a hopeless case.
>>
>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
>> teachers do?
>
> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>
It could be more than one. I went to a school that decided to encourage
the little "darlings" to express themselves first and then taught them
how to do it effectively. Then we moved and I changed schools to one
where they taught clear, effective communication first and then
encouraged ideas to be communicated. As a result I missed out on grammar
education. At grammar school (which changed its name as too many people
couldn't spell grammar) our French teacher had to teach us basic grammar
as he was having trouble getting French grammar through to us. I don't
know what excuse the rest of the class had. Most of my grammar education
came from my father.

I had to teach myself joined-up writing too, which is why it is a little
idiosyncratic.

--
Ric

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:29:15 +0100, John Ashby wrote:

> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>
>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but
>>> how many teachers do?
>>
>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole
>> generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people
>> are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education
>> policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).

> In part over-corrected. Fronted adverbials anyone?

Make mine a double.

On 21/10/2023 14:02, Iain Archer wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 11:29:15 +0100, John Ashby wrote:
>
>> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>>
>>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>>
>>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but
>>>> how many teachers do?
>>>
>>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole
>>> generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people
>>> are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education
>>> policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>
>> In part over-corrected. Fronted adverbials anyone?
>
> Make mine a double.
>
>
Quickly make mine a double ITYM

On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 11:29:18 AM UTC+1, John Ashby wrote:
> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
> > On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> >
> >> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
> >> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
> >> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
> >> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
> >> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
> >> past being a hopeless case.
> >>
> >> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
> >> teachers do?
> >
> > I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
> >
> In part over-corrected. Fronted adverbials anyone?
>
Michael Rosen is worth a read on that subject.
<https://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/health-alert-how-fronted-adverbial.html>
is, IMO, a good starting point.

Nick
nickodell49@yahoo.ca

On 21/10/2023 23:15, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 11:29:18 AM UTC+1, John Ashby wrote:
>> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>>
>>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>>
>>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
>>>> teachers do?
>>>
>>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>>>
>> In part over-corrected. Fronted adverbials anyone?
>>
> Michael Rosen is worth a read on that subject.

As on so many things.

> <https://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/health-alert-how-fronted-adverbial.html>
> is, IMO, a good starting point.
>
Thanks,

john

On 22.10.23 07:02, John Ashby wrote:
> On 21/10/2023 23:15, Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Saturday, October 21, 2023 at 11:29:18 AM UTC+1, John Ashby wrote:
>>> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52 PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of
>>>>> been
>>>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how
>>>>> many
>>>>> teachers do?
>>>>
>>>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole
>>>> generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are
>>>> now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy
>>>> of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>>>>
>>> In part over-corrected. Fronted adverbials anyone?
>>>
>> Michael Rosen is worth a read on that subject.
>
> As on so many things.
>
>> <https://michaelrosenblog.blogspot.com/2016/03/health-alert-how-fronted-adverbial.html>
>> is, IMO, a good starting point.
>>
> Thanks,
>
> john
>

Seconded if such a term can exist in the new grammar. Why modernise and
over complicate something? Sounds like it has been invented for no good
reason.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:02:02 +0100, Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com>
scrawled in the dust...

>Most of my grammar education
>came from my father.

Mine came from my mother, who would auto-correct as I spoke. It was my
built-in habit with my own children, who didn't really appreciate it, but I
suspect they have done it too.

To some degree it is a curse, because bad grammar now stops me listening
while I work out what was meant.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:02:02 +0100, Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com>
> scrawled in the dust...
>
>> Most of my grammar education
>> came from my father.
>
> Mine came from my mother, who would auto-correct as I spoke. It was my
> built-in habit with my own children, who didn't really appreciate it, but I
> suspect they have done it too.
>
> To some degree it is a curse, because bad grammar now stops me listening
> while I work out what was meant.

I know that feeling well, I blame the …. Oh, err…. That is where we came in
wasn’t it?!

Poisonally, I attribute my moderately well spoken manner to my father as he
was a school teacher in a junior school and latterly became the head of the
‘ESN’ department I think that my speech was corrected as yours would have
been Penny and I well remember in later years that people would remark to
my parents how well I spoke. But it is still fun to speak in Umraese innit?
--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 20.10.23 00:24, krw wrote:
> On 13.10.23 16:50, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>> I should of been
>
> How does one advise a close relation of a mistake of that nature on
> Facebook when spotted knowing that umbrage will be taken?
>

Well I did not manage that correction with the good lady wife but she
did amend a spelling mistake I identified!

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On 27/10/2023 09:20, Mike McMillan wrote:
> Poisonally, I attribute my moderately well spoken manner to my father as
> he was a school teacher in a junior school and latterly became the head
> of the ‘ESN’ department I think that my speech was corrected as yours
> would have been Penny and I well remember in later years that people
> would remark to my parents how well I spoke. But it is still fun to
> speak in Umraese innit?

My parents were very hot on speaking "correctly" - ie with "no accent"!
This was not always easy for me because I tend to subconsciously pick up
an accent. When we had a holiday cottage in what was then north
Lancashire (now Cumbria) my father once remarked to my mother that he
wouldn't be surprised if my children were born talking with a Lancashire
accent. My mother responded that she'd be *very* surprised if they were
born talking.

It was my father's habit to say "look it up in the dictionary" whenever
one of us children asked the meaning of a word. To this day, I cannot
let an unrecognized word pass me by - which I think is more virtue than
fault.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

In message <uhfrt6$260q2$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 27 Oct 2023 08:20:54,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
[]
>> To some degree it is a curse, because bad grammar now stops me listening
>> while I work out what was meant.
>
>I know that feeling well, I blame the …. Oh, err…. That is where we came in
>wasn’t it?!
[]
Or, even if I can work out what was meant, I'm trying to devise an
explanation to the speaker why what they said was wrong - and then miss
what they're saying next.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Do ministers do more than lay people?

On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:02:02 +0100, Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com>
wrote:

>On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52?PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>
>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>
>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
>>> teachers do?
>>
>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>>
>It could be more than one. I went to a school that decided to encourage
>the little "darlings" to express themselves first and then taught them
>how to do it effectively. Then we moved and I changed schools to one
>where they taught clear, effective communication first and then
>encouraged ideas to be communicated. As a result I missed out on grammar
>education. At grammar school (which changed its name as too many people
>couldn't spell grammar) our French teacher had to teach us basic grammar
>as he was having trouble getting French grammar through to us. I don't
>know what excuse the rest of the class had. Most of my grammar education
>came from my father.
>
>I had to teach myself joined-up writing too, which is why it is a little
>idiosyncratic.

I had to teach myself joined-up writing too. The resultant scrawl
would have been more appropriate for a doctor than a musical
instrument maker. Ah well...

In my case, I had all my childhood illnesses one after another and
when I got back to school they'd "done" joined-up writing and in a
class of over forty with no teaching assistants in those days my class
teacher just didn't have time to go through everything with this
left-hander.

Nick

On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:03:19 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

>My parents were very hot on speaking "correctly" - ie with "no accent"!
>This was not always easy for me because I tend to subconsciously pick up
>an accent. When we had a holiday cottage in what was then north
>Lancashire (now Cumbria) my father once remarked to my mother that he
>wouldn't be surprised if my children were born talking with a Lancashire
>accent. My mother responded that she'd be *very* surprised if they were
>born talking.

I tend to reflect the accent of the person I'm talking to, though I don't
think I do that locally, unless I come across a Londoner, maybe I've grown
out of it. I certainly picked up North London accents (and vocabulary) at
primary school just north of Watford. My parents were quick to squash some
of that, particularly the less polite vocabulary.
My own children picked up 'Estuary' accents at primary school - neither use
them now.

I've always regarded the mirroring of accents as a social camouflage, which
can be useful at times.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On 27-Oct-23 21:25, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:02:02 +0100, Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52?PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>>
>>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>>
>>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
>>>> teachers do?
>>>
>>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>>>
>> It could be more than one. I went to a school that decided to encourage
>> the little "darlings" to express themselves first and then taught them
>> how to do it effectively. Then we moved and I changed schools to one
>> where they taught clear, effective communication first and then
>> encouraged ideas to be communicated. As a result I missed out on grammar
>> education. At grammar school (which changed its name as too many people
>> couldn't spell grammar) our French teacher had to teach us basic grammar
>> as he was having trouble getting French grammar through to us. I don't
>> know what excuse the rest of the class had. Most of my grammar education
>> came from my father.
>>
>> I had to teach myself joined-up writing too, which is why it is a little
>> idiosyncratic.
>
> I had to teach myself joined-up writing too. The resultant scrawl
> would have been more appropriate for a doctor than a musical
> instrument maker. Ah well...
>
> In my case, I had all my childhood illnesses one after another and
> when I got back to school they'd "done" joined-up writing and in a
> class of over forty with no teaching assistants in those days my class
> teacher just didn't have time to go through everything with this
> left-hander.

Having had only the usual minor childhood illnesses, I have no excuse
for my terrible handwriting.
We were never taught to do joined-up writing, you were somehow expected
to 'get on with it'.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Sat, 28 Oct 2023 20:08:30 +0100, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> scrawled in
the dust...

>On 27-Oct-23 21:25, Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Sat, 21 Oct 2023 14:02:02 +0100, Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 21/10/2023 10:40, Ben Blaney wrote:
>>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 4:50:52?PM UTC+1, Jenny M Benson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't surprise me at all that teachers are not correcting bad
>>>>> grammar - they probably don't recognise bad grammar when they hear/see
>>>>> it. I am forever screeching at the radio when I heard people say
>>>>> something like "myself and my friend are ..." or read "I should of been
>>>>> ..." to give but 2 examples. And (1) "less than/fewer than" is long
>>>>> past being a hopeless case.
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) Yes, I KNOW you shouldn't start a sentence with "And" - but how many
>>>>> teachers do?
>>>>
>>>> I believe that a part of the problem is that there is a whole generation who were not taught grammar at school. Those people are now teachers. We're seeing the effect of a terrible education policy of the ~1980s (now corrected, I'm told).
>>>>
>>> It could be more than one. I went to a school that decided to encourage
>>> the little "darlings" to express themselves first and then taught them
>>> how to do it effectively. Then we moved and I changed schools to one
>>> where they taught clear, effective communication first and then
>>> encouraged ideas to be communicated. As a result I missed out on grammar
>>> education. At grammar school (which changed its name as too many people
>>> couldn't spell grammar) our French teacher had to teach us basic grammar
>>> as he was having trouble getting French grammar through to us. I don't
>>> know what excuse the rest of the class had. Most of my grammar education
>>> came from my father.
>>>
>>> I had to teach myself joined-up writing too, which is why it is a little
>>> idiosyncratic.
>>
>> I had to teach myself joined-up writing too. The resultant scrawl
>> would have been more appropriate for a doctor than a musical
>> instrument maker. Ah well...
>>
>> In my case, I had all my childhood illnesses one after another and
>> when I got back to school they'd "done" joined-up writing and in a
>> class of over forty with no teaching assistants in those days my class
>> teacher just didn't have time to go through everything with this
>> left-hander.
>
>Having had only the usual minor childhood illnesses, I have no excuse
>for my terrible handwriting.
>We were never taught to do joined-up writing, you were somehow expected
>to 'get on with it'.

I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.

My eldest brother went to the original old primary school in the same
village, and then went off to boarding school, followed by architecture
school. I'm not sure what style of script he was taught, but by the time I
saw much of his writing, he was using a very plain style which was not
joined up. I liked that, and my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:45:08 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>
>My eldest brother went to the original old primary school in the same
>village, and then went off to boarding school, followed by architecture
>school. I'm not sure what style of script he was taught, but by the time I
>saw much of his writing, he was using a very plain style which was not
>joined up. I liked that, and my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>--
I thought the crossed 7 was continental. It seemed good to me so that
it differentiated clearly between 1 and 7

On 30/10/2023 21:25, Vicky wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:45:08 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>> particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>> which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>>
>> My eldest brother went to the original old primary school in the same
>> village, and then went off to boarding school, followed by architecture
>> school. I'm not sure what style of script he was taught, but by the time I
>> saw much of his writing, he was using a very plain style which was not
>> joined up. I liked that, and my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>> but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>> --
> I thought the crossed 7 was continental. It seemed good to me so that
> it differentiated clearly between 1 and 7

Similarly when I started doing algebra it became necessary to cross z's
to distinguish them from 2's and to make l's loopy to distinguish them
from 1's (that's ell's from one's which is nigh on impossible in some
fonts and has caused trouble with WiFi passwords in the past).

john

On 30/10/2023 21:25, Vicky wrote:
> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:45:08 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>> particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>> which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>>
>> My eldest brother went to the original old primary school in the same
>> village, and then went off to boarding school, followed by architecture
>> school. I'm not sure what style of script he was taught, but by the time I
>> saw much of his writing, he was using a very plain style which was not
>> joined up. I liked that, and my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>> but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>> --
> I thought the crossed 7 was continental. It seemed good to me so that
> it differentiated clearly between 1 and 7

I acquired crossed 7's when I lived in Austria, and sometimes little
upticks on the 1s as well. I lost those after I came home, they seemed
too fancy, though the crossed 7s stuck fast.

But before that I had been taught copperplate at primary school, and
then italic at secondary school - part of the required equipment in our
first year was an Osmiroid fountain pen, and we all learnt italic
writing quite formally, with homework and everything. I still write
italic, though not with a square nib any more.

I regret that handwriting seems to be being dropped now in the UK - it
seems to be lost in the US already, very few of my American friends can
write legibly at all, however educated. Not only has it been proven that
one remembers things better if one has physically written them down, but
come the apocalypse no-one will know how to record it.

--
Kate B

In message <uhp7q2$kin9$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 30 Oct 2023 21:39:14,
John Ashby <johnashby20@yahoo.com> writes
>On 30/10/2023 21:25, Vicky wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:45:08 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>>> particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>>> which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.

I remember that name, though not whether it is from being taught it or
from knowing my mother had to learn it to become a teacher (her writing
was very different before that).
[]
>> I thought the crossed 7 was continental. It seemed good to me so
>>that
>> it differentiated clearly between 1 and 7

The German (at least - maybe several countries) "1" has a long "nose":
you can see it in the "logo" for TV prog.s made by German channel 1 on
YouTube, many of which have it in the corner of the picture. (It has
quite a thick vertical too.)
>
>Similarly when I started doing algebra it became necessary to cross z's
>to distinguish them from 2's and to make l's loopy to distinguish them
>from 1's (that's ell's from one's which is nigh on impossible in some
>fonts and has caused trouble with WiFi passwords in the past).

I picked up when computer coding: top and tail capital I, and cross zs,
and cross zeroes. (I don't write in the Scandinavian [I think] language
that has that as a letter.) I _think_ I already crossed my 7s, possibly
as a result of time in Germany, though was never in German schools (the
British army in Germany had its own schools).
>
>john
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn.

In message <kqaommFu0e7U1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 30 Oct 2023
22:23:20, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk> writes
[]
>But before that I had been taught copperplate at primary school, and
>then italic at secondary school - part of the required equipment in our
>first year was an Osmiroid fountain pen, and we all learnt italic
>writing quite formally, with homework and everything. I still write
>italic, though not with a square nib any more.

They tried to teach me writing with a nib at primary school - and being
left-handed, with nibs of weird shapes: either curved, or at least with
a funny angle end. I remember it as a reasonably miserable exercise. I
never really saw the point (no pun intended) of what they were trying to
get at: if anyone ever _did_ point out why my natural style was "wrong"
(I presume they wanted thin upstrokes and thick downstrokes, and I guess
my default would have produced the opposite), they failed to explain to
me why that _mattered_. I was so relieved when I could just get back to
ballpen writing.

At secondary school, my writing _was_ a problem, and my parents paid for
me to have extra lessons (from a - lady - teacher at the "prep" school,
i. e. the small primary-age part of my boarding school: that didn't
bother me as much as it would have some boys). The main difference _I_
saw was that she taught me to write _bigger_; I don't mind that, though
I don't know if (a) it's more legible (b) she taught me [or tried to]
other aspects I'm not aware of. My writing is still not great - I try to
avoid writing where I can.

(Aside: once, at university, I fell asleep in a lecture _while actually
taking notes_. I was interested to observe, looking at them later, that
they got smaller over a few inches.)
>
>I regret that handwriting seems to be being dropped now in the UK - it
>seems to be lost in the US already, very few of my American friends can
>write legibly at all, however educated. Not only has it been proven
>that one remembers things better if one has physically written them
>down, but come the apocalypse no-one will know how to record it.
>
(-:

I am reminded of the observation that progress in/with breast implants
and Viagra has so outstripped that with Alzheimers that we'll soon have
loads of senior citizens with firm boobs and the male equivalent, but no
memory of what to do with them ...
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Sometimes you win, sometimes you learn.

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 23:31:12 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver"
<G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:

>hey tried to teach me writing with a nib at primary school - and being
>left-handed, with nibs of weird shapes: either curved, or at least with
>a funny angle end. I remember it as a reasonably miserable exercise. I
>never really saw the point (no pun intended) of what they were trying to
>get at: if anyone ever _did_ point out why my natural style was "wrong"
>(I presume they wanted thin upstrokes and thick downstrokes, and I guess
>my default would have produced the opposite), they failed to explain to
>me why that _mattered_. I was so relieved when I could just get back to
>ballpen writing.
>
>At secondary school, my writing _was_ a problem, and my parents paid for
>me to have extra lessons (from a - lady - teacher at the "prep" school,
>i. e. the small primary-age part of my boarding school: that didn't
>bother me as much as it would have some boys). The main difference _I_
>saw was that she taught me to write _bigger_; I don't mind that, though
>I don't know if (a) it's more legible (b) she taught me [or tried to]
>other aspects I'm not aware of. My writing is still not great - I try to
>avoid writing where I can.
They did't have biros when I was struggling with pens with nibs and
ink. Just those or pencils. my writing was always bad and still is,
but when I taught beginners or ESOL and made worksheets or wrote on
the board I was able to use non- joined up, clear writing. Also to
write for grandkids.

Penny wrote:

>I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.

I remember my mother having to teach Marian Richardson to her
junior class.

That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the
appearance of some written work. Teacher picked up the book,
showed us all, then began to read, only to find that he had great
difficulty. The script was quite a heavy italic, and most of the
characters were indistinguishable from "n".

> my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.

We were taught quite curly capitals, though I've pretty much lost
the habit now. Shall we say that, in my scrawl, they were not
really embellishment.

My reports usually included remarks upon my bad writing.
Interestingly I once found one of my dad's old reports with very
similar comments.

When we started to use ink, my already bad writing got worse. The
ink also seemed to work its way inexorably up our fingers when
using pen holders.

There was then a downward spiral exacerbated by the teacher (in
her probationary year - seemed to have a few things to prove to
herself) who required me to re-do the previous week's essay more
neatly before I could begin to write the current one, which I
would then have to hurry to complete, further untidiness...

Bitter, moi?

We had to provide our own ink at secondary school, which for me
was from 1961 onwards. Does anybody remember Skrip, with a little
internal reservoir in the bottle?

<http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=4062>

IIRC one of the other bottles had flat sides, so that it could
sit at an angle, for much the same reason.

I eventually had a Sheaffer snorkel, which extended a probe to
suck up ink - quite a neat mechanism. It was a victim of a clear
out as all the rubber parts had perished.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7SaP37uX5o

I gather these can be worth something nowadays.

Memory is hazy now, but I think all our proper work had to be
done in ink, ballpoints were only permitted for rough notes. How
are things arranged these days?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:01:41 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:

> The script
> was quite a heavy italic, and most of the characters were
> indistinguishable from "n".

Have you seen Donald Trump's signature?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donald_J._Trump_signature.svg

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:01:41 +0000, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:

>That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
>legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the
>appearance of some written work. Teacher picked up the book,
>showed us all, then began to read, only to find that he had great
>difficulty. The script was quite a heavy italic, and most of the
>characters were indistinguishable from "n".

When writing for students of English or literacy my writing was clear.
And worksheets did have to look inviting so I suppose neat too.