On 31/10/2023 11:01, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
> legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the appearance
> of some written work. Teacher picked up the book, showed us all, then
> began to read, only to find that he had great difficulty. The script was
> quite a heavy italic, and most of the characters were indistinguishable
> from "n".

See also S\"utterlin Schrift.

john

On 31/10/2023 11:50, John Ashby wrote:
> On 31/10/2023 11:01, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>> That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
>> legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the appearance
>> of some written work. Teacher picked up the book, showed us all, then
>> began to read, only to find that he had great difficulty. The script
>> was quite a heavy italic, and most of the characters were
>> indistinguishable from "n".
>
> See also S\"utterlin Schrift.
>
> john

Don't remind me. In pre-digital days I once spent a week researching
some manuscripts at the Albertina in Vienna where the entire card
catalogue was written in it. Luckily the librarian was very helpful. And
didn't seem to mind that I frequently took the name of JJ Fux in vain.

--
Kate B

On 31-Oct-23 11:34, Jim Easterbrook wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:01:41 +0000, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>
>> The script
>> was quite a heavy italic, and most of the characters were
>> indistinguishable from "n".
>
> Have you seen Donald Trump's signature?
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Donald_J._Trump_signature.svg
>
Yes, but that wasn't him signing that.
One of his underlings must have done it - maybe the coffee boy.

Donald wasn't even there at the time - whatever time that was.

--
Sam Plusnet

In message <6vm1kit61ecmgb3n3j2p7p5n3iojeq5357@4ax.com> at Tue, 31 Oct
2023 11:01:41, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> writes
[]
>That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
>legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the

And the converse. I've encountered both in genealogy (neat that's hard
to read, and very scratty that's actually cleared up some confusions).

>appearance of some written work. Teacher picked up the book,
>showed us all, then began to read, only to find that he had great
>difficulty. The script was quite a heavy italic, and most of the
>characters were indistinguishable from "n".

That reminds me of old (pre-war? Not sure) German script; I think it
might be what John Ashby calls "S\"utterlin Schrift". That looks like a
burst of static - or rather, a waveform: something like
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ - unless you can spot the odd dot or umlaut to identify
an i or similar, you (well, I) have great difficulty! It's not untidy -
it can be very neat. Just, as Chris says, the letters look very similar
to each other.
[]
>We were taught quite curly capitals, though I've pretty much lost
>the habit now. Shall we say that, in my scrawl, they were not
>really embellishment.

I don't remember them teaching me anything fancy - I think they were
happy if they could get me to just approach legibility.
[]
>There was then a downward spiral exacerbated by the teacher (in
>her probationary year - seemed to have a few things to prove to
>herself) who required me to re-do the previous week's essay more
>neatly before I could begin to write the current one, which I
>would then have to hurry to complete, further untidiness...
>
>Bitter, moi?

If as you describe, you have every right to be!
[]
>Memory is hazy now, but I think all our proper work had to be
>done in ink, ballpoints were only permitted for rough notes. How
>are things arranged these days?
>
>Chris

I think I was further complicated (this would be late '60s, maybe
including 1970) by "felt pens" just coming in then. I think my mum took
to those quite enthusiastically.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

If you carry on hating, you're the one who's damaged.
- Sir Harold Atcherley, sent to the Burma/Siam railway in April 1943

On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 07:08:23 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Oct 2023 11:03:19 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>scrawled in the dust...
>
>>My parents were very hot on speaking "correctly" - ie with "no accent"!
>>This was not always easy for me because I tend to subconsciously pick up
>>an accent. When we had a holiday cottage in what was then north
>>Lancashire (now Cumbria) my father once remarked to my mother that he
>>wouldn't be surprised if my children were born talking with a Lancashire
>>accent. My mother responded that she'd be *very* surprised if they were
>>born talking.
>
Interesting item on the BBC Radio 4 Six O'clock news tonight about the
decline in the number of people speaking RP and Cockney and what's
replacing those accents. You can read the article that the news item
was based on here....
<https://theconversation.com/cockney-and-queens-english-have-all-but-disappeared-among-young-people-heres-whats-replaced-them-215478>

>I tend to reflect the accent of the person I'm talking to, though I don't
>think I do that locally, unless I come across a Londoner, maybe I've grown
>out of it. I certainly picked up North London accents (and vocabulary) at
>primary school just north of Watford. My parents were quick to squash some
>of that, particularly the less polite vocabulary.
>My own children picked up 'Estuary' accents at primary school - neither use
>them now.
>
This sometimes happens to me but it's not a deliberate attempt on my
part to mimic. It's just something that seems to happen. I have a
theory wot iz myne (but which I probably stole from somebody else)
that there are active accents and there are passive accents. By which
I mean that there are certain subtleties with some accents that make
it almost irresistible to want your own voice to follow this accent
and for you to speak in a similar way. Then again I may be in long and
deep conversation with someone else from somewhere else and their
accent doesn't even leave a mark on mine.

Within a few months of moving there, my sister was speaking with a
gentle but distinct Australian accent. Yet my son has been living in
Canada for over thirteen years and still sounds British. I wouldn't
want to be too dogmatic about my theory but nevertheless I've noticed
quite a lot of other examples. And people blessed with active accents
seldom seem to me to adopt passive accents however long they's been
living in that environment

>I've always regarded the mirroring of accents as a social camouflage, which
>can be useful at times.

I always used to be quite good at mimicking regional and foreign
accents for fun but never tried to adopt one as self-defence. In a
Professor Higginsian way, I could usually identify where somebody had
grown up at home or abroad. That applied to foreigners speaking
English as a foreign language or speaking in their own tongue. I can
recognise a lot of languages just by the sound of them but - and
here's the rub - I can't recognise regional variations within the few
languages I pretend that I can speak: with those languages and
dialects it comes down to - can I understand what they are saying or
not? I'm too focused on trying to extract the meaning from the words
to be able to listen to the sound and shape of the dialect.

Nick

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:23:20 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 30/10/2023 21:25, Vicky wrote:
>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:45:08 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>>> particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>>> which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>>>
>>> My eldest brother went to the original old primary school in the same
>>> village, and then went off to boarding school, followed by architecture
>>> school. I'm not sure what style of script he was taught, but by the time I
>>> saw much of his writing, he was using a very plain style which was not
>>> joined up. I liked that, and my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>>> but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>>> --
>> I thought the crossed 7 was continental. It seemed good to me so that
>> it differentiated clearly between 1 and 7
>
>I acquired crossed 7's when I lived in Austria, and sometimes little
>upticks on the 1s as well. I lost those after I came home, they seemed
>too fancy, though the crossed 7s stuck fast.
>
>But before that I had been taught copperplate at primary school, and
>then italic at secondary school - part of the required equipment in our
>first year was an Osmiroid fountain pen, and we all learnt italic
>writing quite formally, with homework and everything. I still write
>italic, though not with a square nib any more.
>
>I regret that handwriting seems to be being dropped now in the UK - it
>seems to be lost in the US already, very few of my American friends can
>write legibly at all, however educated. Not only has it been proven that
>one remembers things better if one has physically written them down, but
>come the apocalypse no-one will know how to record it.

Did the apocalypse really happen if nobody was able to record it?

Never mind bad actors in unfriendly countries, it's been a long time
since we had a cosmic storm even approaching anything like the
Carrington Event[1] but back in 1859, even the primitive communication
systems of the day were fried. Imagine what would happen to the more
sensitive and delicate electronics that we use today?

Nick
[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:01:41 +0000, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk>
wrote:

>Penny wrote:
>
>>I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>>particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>>which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>
>I remember my mother having to teach Marian Richardson to her
>junior class.
>
>That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
>legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the
>appearance of some written work. Teacher picked up the book,
>showed us all, then began to read, only to find that he had great
>difficulty. The script was quite a heavy italic, and most of the
>characters were indistinguishable from "n".
>
>> my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>>but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>
>We were taught quite curly capitals, though I've pretty much lost
>the habit now. Shall we say that, in my scrawl, they were not
>really embellishment.
>
>My reports usually included remarks upon my bad writing.
>Interestingly I once found one of my dad's old reports with very
>similar comments.
>
>When we started to use ink, my already bad writing got worse. The
>ink also seemed to work its way inexorably up our fingers when
>using pen holders.
>
>There was then a downward spiral exacerbated by the teacher (in
>her probationary year - seemed to have a few things to prove to
>herself) who required me to re-do the previous week's essay more
>neatly before I could begin to write the current one, which I
>would then have to hurry to complete, further untidiness...
>
>Bitter, moi?
>
>We had to provide our own ink at secondary school, which for me
>was from 1961 onwards. Does anybody remember Skrip, with a little
>internal reservoir in the bottle?
>
><http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=4062>
>
>IIRC one of the other bottles had flat sides, so that it could
>sit at an angle, for much the same reason.
>
>I eventually had a Sheaffer snorkel, which extended a probe to
>suck up ink - quite a neat mechanism. It was a victim of a clear
>out as all the rubber parts had perished.
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7SaP37uX5o
>
>I gather these can be worth something nowadays.
>
>Memory is hazy now, but I think all our proper work had to be
>done in ink, ballpoints were only permitted for rough notes. How
>are things arranged these days?
>
I still like writing personal stuff with a fountain pen but I fear
that this year's Christmas cards are going to be written in ballpoint.
First my Waterman, then my Parker ended up leaving more ink on my
fingers than on the page and I don't think I can put off the necessary
repairs to my Sheaffer (not a snorkel) any longer.

I came upon a spare part supplier called Pendragon (Pen. Dragon.
Geddit? (Googleable just like that if you want to use them
yourselves)) and I got myself a replacement bladder..
....for the Scheaffer, not for me although come to think of it...

Let's see if the repair is as easy as they seem to say it is.

Nick

On 31-Oct-23 20:28, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:23:20 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 30/10/2023 21:25, Vicky wrote:
>>> On Sun, 29 Oct 2023 10:45:08 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>>>> particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>>>> which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>>>>
>>>> My eldest brother went to the original old primary school in the same
>>>> village, and then went off to boarding school, followed by architecture
>>>> school. I'm not sure what style of script he was taught, but by the time I
>>>> saw much of his writing, he was using a very plain style which was not
>>>> joined up. I liked that, and my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>>>> but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>>>> --
>>> I thought the crossed 7 was continental. It seemed good to me so that
>>> it differentiated clearly between 1 and 7
>>
>> I acquired crossed 7's when I lived in Austria, and sometimes little
>> upticks on the 1s as well. I lost those after I came home, they seemed
>> too fancy, though the crossed 7s stuck fast.
>>
>> But before that I had been taught copperplate at primary school, and
>> then italic at secondary school - part of the required equipment in our
>> first year was an Osmiroid fountain pen, and we all learnt italic
>> writing quite formally, with homework and everything. I still write
>> italic, though not with a square nib any more.
>>
>> I regret that handwriting seems to be being dropped now in the UK - it
>> seems to be lost in the US already, very few of my American friends can
>> write legibly at all, however educated. Not only has it been proven that
>> one remembers things better if one has physically written them down, but
>> come the apocalypse no-one will know how to record it.
>
> Did the apocalypse really happen if nobody was able to record it?
>
> Never mind bad actors in unfriendly countries, it's been a long time
> since we had a cosmic storm even approaching anything like the
> Carrington Event[1] but back in 1859, even the primitive communication
> systems of the day were fried. Imagine what would happen to the more
> sensitive and delicate electronics that we use today?
>
>
>
> Nick
> [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrington_Event

Would that mean the "Today" programme could not be broadcast?

Enquiring minds might like to hide under the bedclothes, & all that.

--
Sam Plusnet

Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk> wrote:
> Penny wrote:
>
>> I was taught Marian Richardson joined up writing. I was not a fan,
>> particularly after an incomer joined my class, who had been taught Italic,
>> which really impressed me. I moved towards a sloping style.
>
> I remember my mother having to teach Marian Richardson to her
> junior class.
>
> That reminds me that writing which looks "neat" isn't necessarily
> legible. I remember someone at school being praised for the
> appearance of some written work. Teacher picked up the book,
> showed us all, then began to read, only to find that he had great
> difficulty. The script was quite a heavy italic, and most of the
> characters were indistinguishable from "n".
>
>> my own script owed quite a lot to that style,
>> but included a curly cap I and a crossed 7.
>
> We were taught quite curly capitals, though I've pretty much lost
> the habit now. Shall we say that, in my scrawl, they were not
> really embellishment.
>
> My reports usually included remarks upon my bad writing.
> Interestingly I once found one of my dad's old reports with very
> similar comments.
>
> When we started to use ink, my already bad writing got worse. The
> ink also seemed to work its way inexorably up our fingers when
> using pen holders.
>
> There was then a downward spiral exacerbated by the teacher (in
> her probationary year - seemed to have a few things to prove to
> herself) who required me to re-do the previous week's essay more
> neatly before I could begin to write the current one, which I
> would then have to hurry to complete, further untidiness...
>
> Bitter, moi?
>
> We had to provide our own ink at secondary school, which for me
> was from 1961 onwards. Does anybody remember Skrip, with a little
> internal reservoir in the bottle?
>
> <http://dirck.delint.ca/beta/?page_id=4062>
>
> IIRC one of the other bottles had flat sides, so that it could
> sit at an angle, for much the same reason.
>
> I eventually had a Sheaffer snorkel, which extended a probe to
> suck up ink - quite a neat mechanism. It was a victim of a clear
> out as all the rubber parts had perished.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7SaP37uX5o
>
> I gather these can be worth something nowadays.
>
> Memory is hazy now, but I think all our proper work had to be
> done in ink, ballpoints were only permitted for rough notes. How
> are things arranged these days?
>
> Chris

You lot think you had it bad? Biros were introduced at my second boarding
school the term I arrived. The biros were guarded like gold dust. They
were short and stubby and we had to return them to the teacher at the end
of each lesson. The other lessons were still fountain pens. My dad bought
me a cartridge pen, right messy thing in my hand. A couple of our
classrooms were very tiny. Special schools by then had no more than 16 to
a class and all but two classrooms had been designed for wheelchair users
as the now school had begun life as two schools on one piece of land but
two separate schools. But something had gone awry on the second floor.
There were two small rooms plus some toilets. I reckon on thi king back
there was a balls up twixt drawings and building and being there was
nowhere else for the senior boys loos, it was taken out of these two rooms.

One room was where we did, first Latin, and then German. I decided on my
first day that year to sit by the window so I could see better. Next to me
was one of our left handers. For the last three yrs of our schooling he
was forever getting his elbow in my face holding his pen up at right
angles. I couldn’t change places: one just didn’t. And in any case, being
able to read the board in a subject you liked helped if a teacher used it.
Not all teachers taught us as if we had sight problems: most weren’t
trained to be (old mates of the Head who co-founded the school from the war
I’m told). Had to be careful not to nudge him either or he’d have caused
trouble. Thing is, he remembers sitting next to me but not how his arm got
in my way.

Mrs McT

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 20:18:17 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
scrawled in the dust...

>Within a few months of moving there, my sister was speaking with a
>gentle but distinct Australian accent.

I didn't see or hear Bro#2 for four years after he left for Australia. He
came back for a holiday, with his fiancee before they moved to Tasmania,
where she came from, and got married - her family would not have approved
if they hadn't. He had acquired an Australian accent (which I always mirror
when I see him), but he says Australians still hear him as a Pom.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 23:31:12 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

>They tried to teach me writing with a nib at primary school - and being
>left-handed, with nibs of weird shapes: either curved, or at least with
>a funny angle end. I remember it as a reasonably miserable exercise. I
>never really saw the point (no pun intended) of what they were trying to
>get at: if anyone ever _did_ point out why my natural style was "wrong"
>(I presume they wanted thin upstrokes and thick downstrokes, and I guess
>my default would have produced the opposite), they failed to explain to
>me why that _mattered_.

It matters to me when I see shop or house names made with plastic letters
and they are upside down or back to front.

In typing, the number of people who use l (lower case L) in place of I (cap
i) in regnal numbers, or in place of 1, or 0 in place of o in a word is
surprising. I suppose they learned to type on a typewriter which didn't
have a 1 key (like me).

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 22:23:20 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

>I regret that handwriting seems to be being dropped now in the UK - it
>seems to be lost in the US already, very few of my American friends can
>write legibly at all, however educated. Not only has it been proven that
>one remembers things better if one has physically written them down, but
>come the apocalypse no-one will know how to record it.

I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find it quite
difficult.

In spite of all John Wyndham's books, I doubt there will be anyone left to
write stuff down. I did like the dragon books where children learned to
write and figure with a stylus on clay, or was it a sand tray? They also
learned from songs. In later books they made paper and managed to revive
the computers they found.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 20:38:19 +0000, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca>
scrawled in the dust...

>I came upon a spare part supplier called Pendragon (Pen. Dragon.
>Geddit? (Googleable just like that if you want to use them
>yourselves)) and I got myself a replacement bladder..
>...for the Scheaffer, not for me although come to think of it...

When I was 'buyer' in the stationery shop, I ensured we stocked spares for
all the fancy pens we sold, and some we didn't :)
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On 01-Nov-23 16:55, Chris wrote:

> You lot think you had it bad? Biros were introduced at my second boarding
> school the term I arrived. The biros were guarded like gold dust. They
> were short and stubby and we had to return them to the teacher at the end
> of each lesson. The other lessons were still fountain pens.

At our school, use of biros was forbidden - except in 'Science' where it
was compulsory.
The Science teacher had a "Bic" branded rack of 30(ish) biros and we
were all directed to take one at the start of the lesson, returning them
at the end.
No-one was allowed to leave until every biro was accounted for.

--
Sam Plusnet

Penny wrote:

>I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find it quite
>difficult.

Same here. If I do want to be able to read what I have written, I
use capitals.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

On 01/11/2023 21:36, Chris J Dixon wrote:
> Penny wrote:
>
>> I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find it quite
>> difficult.
>
> Same here. If I do want to be able to read what I have written, I
> use capitals.
>

Am I AOU in keeping a handwritten journal? It's not a really exciting
one but it certainly helps me remember things. Not sure anyone else
could read the handwriting, though in case they can, I have left
instructions for them all to be destroyed when I die, if I haven't got
there first.

--
Kate B

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 21:58:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

>On 01/11/2023 21:36, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>> Penny wrote:
>>
>>> I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find it quite
>>> difficult.
>>
>> Same here. If I do want to be able to read what I have written, I
>> use capitals.
>>
>
>Am I AOU in keeping a handwritten journal? It's not a really exciting
>one but it certainly helps me remember things. Not sure anyone else
>could read the handwriting, though in case they can, I have left
>instructions for them all to be destroyed when I die, if I haven't got
>there first.

I kept one for some years after the Husgod died. I wrote in it every night,
as a letter to him. It helped me sort out my thoughts on whatever I was
finding difficult at the time - mostly regarding the children, who were 4
and 10 when he died.

I've never read it. I'm not sure when I stopped doing it - though I could
probably work that out if I did. I know I filled an A4 hard-back book and
started on an A5 one.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

In message <hi91kip0515i2752ojmftrmr2h0dl06j18@4ax.com> at Tue, 31 Oct
2023 07:10:36, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> writes
>On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 23:31:12 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>scrawled in the dust...
>
>>They tried to teach me writing with a nib at primary school - and being
>>left-handed, with nibs of weird shapes: either curved, or at least with
>>a funny angle end. I remember it as a reasonably miserable exercise. I
>>never really saw the point (no pun intended) of what they were trying to
>>get at: if anyone ever _did_ point out why my natural style was "wrong"
>>(I presume they wanted thin upstrokes and thick downstrokes, and I guess
>>my default would have produced the opposite), they failed to explain to
>>me why that _mattered_.
>
>It matters to me when I see shop or house names made with plastic letters
>and they are upside down or back to front.
>
>In typing, the number of people who use l (lower case L) in place of I (cap
>i) in regnal numbers, or in place of 1, or 0 in place of o in a word is

Those bug me too. But when it came to handwriting, any of those with
whom I had to deal could with minimal effort _see_ (understand) why I
had difficulty. It wasn't laziness, like using the wrong letters (or
upside down or back to front) - in fact I suspect those who were
bothered by my handwriting both _would_ use wrong plastic letters, _and_
wouldn't see why that would bother _me_.

>surprising. I suppose they learned to type on a typewriter which didn't
>have a 1 key (like me).
>
You are like a typewriter that doesn't have a 1 key? (-:

I remember my dad's portable (Olivetti, IIRR) didn't have a 1, or a !
(you used ' and .), and probably other idiosyncracies. (Probably no 0.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

A professor is one who talks in someone else's sleep.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:10:36 +0000, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 23:31:12 +0000, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
>scrawled in the dust...
>
>>They tried to teach me writing with a nib at primary school - and being
>>left-handed, with nibs of weird shapes: either curved, or at least with
>>a funny angle end. I remember it as a reasonably miserable exercise. I
>>never really saw the point (no pun intended) of what they were trying to
>>get at: if anyone ever _did_ point out why my natural style was "wrong"
>>(I presume they wanted thin upstrokes and thick downstrokes, and I guess
>>my default would have produced the opposite), they failed to explain to
>>me why that _mattered_.
>
>It matters to me when I see shop or house names made with plastic letters
>and they are upside down or back to front.
>
>In typing, the number of people who use l (lower case L) in place of I (cap
>i) in regnal numbers, or in place of 1, or 0 in place of o in a word is
>surprising. I suppose they learned to type on a typewriter which didn't
>have a 1 key (like me).

Unlike the Morcambe and Wise typewriters of which you speak, my old
Tippa S portable[1] has all the right keys in the right order. But do
you remember those toy typewriters? IIRC they only had lower or upper
case letters and I'm not too sure about numbers and punctuation

Nick
[1]Which I still have in the cupboard along with the Grundig
reel-to-reel tape recorder

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 21:58:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 01/11/2023 21:36, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>> Penny wrote:
>>
>>> I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find it quite
>>> difficult.
>>
>> Same here. If I do want to be able to read what I have written, I
>> use capitals.
>>
>
>Am I AOU in keeping a handwritten journal? It's not a really exciting
>one but it certainly helps me remember things. Not sure anyone else
>could read the handwriting, though in case they can, I have left
>instructions for them all to be destroyed when I die, if I haven't got
>there first.

Destroyed? Worked well for Ken Dodd, didn't it?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66727223

Nick

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 20:22:49 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

>On 01-Nov-23 16:55, Chris wrote:
>
>> You lot think you had it bad? Biros were introduced at my second boarding
>> school the term I arrived. The biros were guarded like gold dust. They
>> were short and stubby and we had to return them to the teacher at the end
>> of each lesson. The other lessons were still fountain pens.
>
>At our school, use of biros was forbidden - except in 'Science' where it
>was compulsory.
>The Science teacher had a "Bic" branded rack of 30(ish) biros and we
>were all directed to take one at the start of the lesson, returning them
>at the end.
>No-one was allowed to leave until every biro was accounted for.

Biro's - or rather Biromes - are very popular in Argentina and each
year September 29th is celebrated as Inventors' Day.

Nick

In message <6798kilsrn78vio9bcgtn9jkt6go5sjqm0@4ax.com> at Thu, 2 Nov
2023 22:42:07, Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> writes
[]
>Unlike the Morcambe and Wise typewriters of which you speak, my old
>Tippa S portable[1] has all the right keys in the right order. But do
>you remember those toy typewriters? IIRC they only had lower or upper
>case letters and I'm not too sure about numbers and punctuation

Yes, they had something like a manually-turned golfball (though IIRR it
was more cylindrical); _far_ slower to use than actual writing, even if
you wrote slowly to be neat!
>
>Nick
>[1]Which I still have in the cupboard along with the Grundig
>reel-to-reel tape recorder

I've been wondering for the last few years where my father's Philips one
got to; maybe he sold it. I do have my (work) department's old
Ferrograph which I rescued when it was going to be thrown out, but
that's only half-track. (And weighs sufficient that it'd probably be
considered a two-man lift these days.)
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

pu gnikcab yb naem uoy tahw siht sI

On 02/11/2023 22:45, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 21:58:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 01/11/2023 21:36, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>> Penny wrote:
>>>
>>>> I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find it quite
>>>> difficult.
>>>
>>> Same here. If I do want to be able to read what I have written, I
>>> use capitals.
>>>
>>
>> Am I AOU in keeping a handwritten journal? It's not a really exciting
>> one but it certainly helps me remember things. Not sure anyone else
>> could read the handwriting, though in case they can, I have left
>> instructions for them all to be destroyed when I die, if I haven't got
>> there first.
>
> Destroyed? Worked well for Ken Dodd, didn't it?
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66727223
>
> Nick

And Kafka.

john

On 03-Nov-23 7:43, John Ashby wrote:
> On 02/11/2023 22:45, Nick Odell wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 21:58:25 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/11/2023 21:36, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>> Penny wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I rarely hand write more than a shopping list these days, and find
>>>>> it quite
>>>>> difficult.
>>>>
>>>> Same here. If I do want to be able to read what I have written, I
>>>> use capitals.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Am I AOU in keeping a handwritten journal? It's not a really exciting
>>> one but it certainly helps me remember things. Not sure anyone else
>>> could read the handwriting, though in case they can, I have left
>>> instructions for them all to be destroyed when I die, if I haven't got
>>> there first.
>>
>> Destroyed? Worked well for Ken Dodd, didn't it?
>> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66727223
>>
>> Nick
>
> And Kafka.

Can I offer Dante Gabriel Rossetti as a counterbalance?

(He had is wife exhumed so he could retrieve some of his poetry from her
coffin.)

--
Sam Plusnet

On 02-Nov-23 22:51, Nick Odell wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 20:22:49 +0000, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>
>> On 01-Nov-23 16:55, Chris wrote:
>>
>>> You lot think you had it bad? Biros were introduced at my second boarding
>>> school the term I arrived. The biros were guarded like gold dust. They
>>> were short and stubby and we had to return them to the teacher at the end
>>> of each lesson. The other lessons were still fountain pens.
>>
>> At our school, use of biros was forbidden - except in 'Science' where it
>> was compulsory.
>> The Science teacher had a "Bic" branded rack of 30(ish) biros and we
>> were all directed to take one at the start of the lesson, returning them
>> at the end.
>> No-one was allowed to leave until every biro was accounted for.
>
> Biro's - or rather Biromes - are very popular in Argentina and each
> year September 29th is celebrated as Inventors' Day.

That puzzled me.
I knew László Bíró was Hungarian, so I didn't see the connection.
I now understand.

Thanks to Wikipedia, I now know that the Nepali English name for a biro
is "dot pen" - and that Nepali English is a 'thing'.

Yer lives & learns.

--
Sam Plusnet