At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
future;

1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!

2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
leisurely life!
Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…

If machines are doing all the work, who or what is going to provide the
wherewithal to house, feed, heat and care for us all? As I understand it,
(and I am no economist / accountant / scientist) one reason to work is so
that there is a product at the end of my labours which someone else is
prepared to pay me for - and this pay I receive is in turn, paid to others
for the facilities and services I want myself. Bartering or paying with
some form of promissory token has been around for ‘ever’ nearly - what will
happen in the ‘labourless society’?

Confused of Earley.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <ui3dff$2sqhg$1@dont-email.me> at Fri, 3 Nov 2023 18:17:19,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>
>At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
>future;
>
>1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
>charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!

I think that was around the start of nuclear. People (some people) have
always been sufficiently wary of it that that was never going to happen.
>
>2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
>leisurely life!
>Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
>even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…
>
>If machines are doing all the work, who or what is going to provide the
>wherewithal to house, feed, heat and care for us all? As I understand it,
>(and I am no economist / accountant / scientist) one reason to work is so
>that there is a product at the end of my labours which someone else is
>prepared to pay me for - and this pay I receive is in turn, paid to others
>for the facilities and services I want myself. Bartering or paying with
>some form of promissory token has been around for ‘ever’ nearly - what will
>happen in the ‘labourless society’?
>
>Confused of Earley.
>
I think the idea of the second one was that eventually machines would do
the housing, feeding, and so on. The underlying fact that those machines
still have to be paid for seems to have escaped the utopians - much like
the current assumption that everything's there online: it (roughly) is,
but not free. (Even where there is "free" wifi, someone's paying for it
- e. g. in shops or pubs or shopping centres, someone's paying for it to
entice you into them - basically, a form of advertising, like anything
else "free".)

There _are_ things we now take for granted will be provided without
_obvious_ payment being required, some of which _would_ surprise those
who were writing those predictions (1950s mostly?). [Equally, there are
some things we now accept having to pay for which they'd have expected
provided "free" - mostly, I think, staff, such as conductors on buses,
and petrol station attendants (when did you last see one of those?).]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"You play the market?" "No, the ukelele. And I sing too"
- Tony Curtis/Marilyn Monroe in SLIH

On Friday, November 3, 2023 at 2:17:21 PM UTC-4, Mike McMillan wrote:

> If machines are doing all the work, who or what is going to provide the
> wherewithal to house, feed, heat and care for us all? As I understand it,
> (and I am no economist / accountant / scientist) one reason to work is so
> that there is a product at the end of my labours which someone else is
> prepared to pay me for - and this pay I receive is in turn, paid to others
> for the facilities and services I want myself. Bartering or paying with
> some form of promissory token has been around for ‘ever’ nearly - what will
> happen in the ‘labourless society’?

What will happen is that the machines will be owned by some (rich) people - who will collect the monies resulting from the machine's "labours". Those who don't have the capital to buy the machine to generate income, presumably will be in A Spot Of Bother. I don't know what mechanism will exist to prevent them starving to death; some kind of income redistribution, I imagine.

My prediction is that it will become an even more dramatic widening of the wealth gap that we observe today.

Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>
> At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
> future;
>
> 1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
> charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!
>
> 2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
> leisurely life!
> Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
> even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…
>
> If machines are doing all the work, who or what is going to provide the
> wherewithal to house, feed, heat and care for us all? As I understand it,
> (and I am no economist / accountant / scientist) one reason to work is so
> that there is a product at the end of my labours which someone else is
> prepared to pay me for - and this pay I receive is in turn, paid to others
> for the facilities and services I want myself. Bartering or paying with
> some form of promissory token has been around for ‘ever’ nearly - what will
> happen in the ‘labourless society’?
>
> Confused of Earley.

What has happened previously with mechanisation and automation is that
large numbers of people have lost their jobs and the money that previously
went to pay their wages partly paid for the new machinery and people to
look after them, and partly ended up in the pockets of the providers and
the users of the new machinery.

The leisure society requires instead that this second part is instead
collected by the state and then redistributed to those that have lost their
jobs (which would increasingly be everybody) as a universal basic income,
which could be supplemented by selling other products, like art and music,
that the machines weren’t making, and that would give life a bit of
purpose.

The problem is that nobody who currently makes often obscene amounts of
money from the current system wants to sign up to the leisure society
approach, instead preferring to capture even the human production that was
expected to give a bit of meaning to a life of leisure.

And most politicians prefer to cosy up with the super-wealthy people
created by the system rather than persuade them or oblige them to hand back
their unneeded money for the greater good.

On 03/11/2023 18:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
> At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
> future;
>
> 1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
> charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!
>
> 2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
> leisurely life!
> Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
> even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…

And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.

(1) It might have been 5. It's been there well over 80 years now.
--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 03/11/2023 18:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
>> future;
>>
>> 1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
>> charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!
>>
>> 2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
>> leisurely life!
>> Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
>> even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…
>
> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>
> (1) It might have been 5. It's been there well over 80 years now.

The last I heard… The Tamar Bridge was ‘entolled’ to enter Cornwall but
free to enter Devon. (or ‘England’ as many Cornish prefer to think of it.)

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
[]
>And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>
>(1) It might have been 5. It's been there well over 80 years now.

And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd accept
including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

.... basically it's another language and unless you've studied it, it's
difficult to grasp. I know people get outraged at me saying it, but it's only
my opinion. I'm not telling people who adore Shakespeare to stop adoring it
this minute. - Jane Horrocks, in Radio Times 30 July - 5 August 2011

On 06/11/2023 15:04, Mike McMillan wrote:

<snip>

> The last I heard… The Tamar Bridge was ‘entolled’ to enter Cornwall but
> free to enter Devon. (or ‘England’ as many Cornish prefer to think of it.)

Other way round.
--
Cheers
Clive

On 06/11/2023 15:32, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
> 13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
> []
>> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>>
>> (1) It might have been 5.  It's been there well over 80 years now.
>
> And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
> fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
> specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd accept
> including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.

There was a toll on the Forth Road Bridge until 2008, when the SNP voted
to abolish it. Subsequently a new road bridge was built - the
Queensferry Crossing - and that too is toll-free. The old road bridge is
now reserved for public transport, bikes and pedestrians.Altogether the
three Forth Bridges, from the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, are
impressive and rather beautiful.

--
Kate B

On 06/11/2023 11:29, Wenlock wrote:
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>
>> At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
>> future;

[snip]

>> Confused of Earley.
>
> What has happened previously with mechanisation and automation is that
> large numbers of people have lost their jobs and the money that previously
>
[snip]

by the system rather than persuade them or oblige them to hand back
> their unneeded money for the greater good.

Extremely LW

--
Steveski

On 06-Nov-23 13:45, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> On 03/11/2023 18:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
>> future;
>>
>> 1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
>> charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!
>>
>> 2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
>> leisurely life!
>> Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
>> even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…
>
> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>
> (1) It might have been 5.  It's been there well over 80 years now.

Don't lose heart.

The Severn Bridge toll was to end once the (original) bridge was paid
for. Minds were changed, and it actually lasted from 1966 to December 2018.

I don't think they ever had to pump water out of the Severn Bridge, so
that must have been a cost saving.

P.S. The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident,
due to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting
the signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 06-Nov-23 17:00, Kate B wrote:
> On 06/11/2023 15:32, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
>> 13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>> []
>>> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>>> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>>>
>>> (1) It might have been 5.  It's been there well over 80 years now.
>>
>> And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
>> fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
>> specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd
>> accept including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.
>
> There was a toll on the Forth Road Bridge until 2008, when the SNP voted
> to abolish it. Subsequently a new road bridge was built - the
> Queensferry Crossing - and that too is toll-free. The old road bridge is
> now reserved for public transport, bikes and pedestrians.Altogether the
> three Forth Bridges, from the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, are
> impressive and rather beautiful.
>
How long before the is a fourth Forth bridge?

An OAP with a schoolboy's sense of humour wishes to know.

--
Sam Plusnet

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
> 13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
> []
>> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>>
>> (1) It might have been 5. It's been there well over 80 years now.
>
> And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
> fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
> specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd accept
> including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.

However, the Kyle of Lochalsh - Kyleakin bridge is now toll free I believe.

Mrs McT

On 07/11/2023 09:09, Chris wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
>> 13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>> []
>>> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>>> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>>>
>>> (1) It might have been 5. It's been there well over 80 years now.
>>
>> And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
>> fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
>> specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd accept
>> including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.
>
> However, the Kyle of Lochalsh - Kyleakin bridge is now toll free I believe.
>
>
> Mrs McT
>

This Act of the Scottish Parliament abolished tolls on all bridges
(Forth, Tay, Skye) in Scotland.

Abolition of Bridge Tolls (Scotland) Act 2008

On 06/11/2023 19:56, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 06-Nov-23 17:00, Kate B wrote:
>> On 06/11/2023 15:32, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
>>> 13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>>> []
>>>> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>>>> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>>>>
>>>> (1) It might have been 5.  It's been there well over 80 years now.
>>>
>>> And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
>>> fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
>>> specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd
>>> accept including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.
>>
>> There was a toll on the Forth Road Bridge until 2008, when the SNP
>> voted to abolish it. Subsequently a new road bridge was built - the
>> Queensferry Crossing - and that too is toll-free. The old road bridge
>> is now reserved for public transport, bikes and pedestrians.Altogether
>> the three Forth Bridges, from the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries, are
>> impressive and rather beautiful.
>>
> How long before the is a fourth Forth bridge?
>
> An OAP with a schoolboy's sense of humour wishes to know.
>
Probably not for some considerable time. The Queensferry crossing is
performing well, on the whole, the Forth Road Bridge is available as a
"spare", and the Forth Bridge, opened in 1890, and a World Heritage
Site, is used by many trains every day.

Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
>> In message <kqs8v8FjllvU1@mid.individual.net> at Mon, 6 Nov 2023
>> 13:45:12, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>> []
>>> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
>>> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>>>
>>> (1) It might have been 5. It's been there well over 80 years now.
>>
>> And the Dartford tunnel (and maybe Elizabeth bridge? Not sure if the
>> fiction was still going when they built that), I don't think after a
>> specific number of years, but when the construction cost (OK, I'd accept
>> including loan interest) had been paid off. Ha.
>
> However, the Kyle of Lochalsh - Kyleakin bridge is now toll free I believe.
>
>
> Mrs McT
>
>

http://www.lochalsh.co.uk/skye_bridge.shtml

On 6.11.23 13:45, Jenny M Benson wrote:
> On 03/11/2023 18:17, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> At school, we were told that there were two things we would see in the
>> future;
>>
>> 1, that electricity would be so cheap, it would not be worth metering and
>> charging for… yeah, well that has worked out well so far hasn’t it?!
>>
>> 2. We would have machines to do all the work and we could just enjoy a
>> leisurely life!
>> Well, I have never understood how this would work and I don’t think that
>> even Elon Musk could provide an answer to my question, which is…
>
> And the Mersey Tunnel was going to be toll-free after I
> forget-how-many(1)-years-in-existence.
>
> (1) It might have been 5.  It's been there well over 80 years now.

I believe that story was originally tolled about the Itchen Bridge in
Southampton. Not used it in many years but I suspect that there is
still a toll.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.

There is a tunnel? I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
world.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

On 12-Nov-23 13:51, krw wrote:
> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>
> There is a tunnel?  I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
> world.

There is, but you have to dig to find it.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 12-Nov-23 13:51, krw wrote:
>> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>>
>> There is a tunnel?  I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
>> world.
>
> There is, but you have to dig to find it.
>

One end is in India…

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

krw <krw@whitnet.uk> wrote:
> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>
> There is a tunnel? I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
> world.
>

I’ve seen the tunnel, I did go across the Mersey. It was a boat trip and
we picked more punters up from there.

Mrs McM

On 12/11/2023 13:51, krw wrote:
> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>
> There is a tunnel?  I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
> world.

As a child living in Birkenhead, using the Mersey Tunnel was a frequent
occurrence and not considered in any way special or unusual. Once we
gave a lift to a friend's daughter, travelling from the Lake District to
visit relatives in Liverpool. I couldn't understand why she was so
envious to hear we would be travelling on through the Tunnel. (We
always referred to it just as "the Tunnel".)

A trip (to a Royal Liverpool Philharmonic Concert) with my aunt and
grandmother led to a family saying which has been quoted innumerable
times since. We were in my aunt's Morris Minor, travelling in the "slow
lane". A car whizzed past and Grannie remarked that it was going very
fast and my Auntie assured her it could only be doing 30. "30's the
limit in the Tunnel, you know" responded Auntie, piously.

Auntie would have been horrified had she known that we once went through
with we children lounging over 2 Calor Gas bottles draped with blankets
because Father didn't want to have to wait for the obligatory escort.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

On 13/11/2023 09:57, Chris wrote:
> krw <krw@whitnet.uk> wrote:
>> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>>
>> There is a tunnel? I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
>> world.
>>
>
> I’ve seen the tunnel, I did go across the Mersey. It was a boat trip and
> we picked more punters up from there.
>
Were the first lot of punters worn out ?
Must have been very long poles on those punts.

BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13/11/2023 09:57, Chris wrote:
>> krw <krw@whitnet.uk> wrote:
>>> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>>>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>>>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>>>
>>> There is a tunnel? I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
>>> world.
>>>
>>
>> I’ve seen the tunnel, I did go across the Mersey. It was a boat trip and
>> we picked more punters up from there.
>>
> Were the first lot of punters worn out ?
> Must have been very long poles on those punts.
>
>

Too sharp by half, Britters.

I’m not really a boat person and was happy to hide on the lower deck with
a 12 guide dog if it felt too frail in its legs to climb to the top deck.
He was having nine of that and raced after his good dog friend aged 8. I
had no choice, the others nagged me to go up. It was cold but sunny and
eventually I survived. The bribery (these girls know me too well) was
better photos.

Mrs McT

Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> BrritSki <rtilburyTAKEOUT@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 13/11/2023 09:57, Chris wrote:
>>> krw <krw@whitnet.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 6.11.23 19:52, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>>>> The only time we ever went down the Mersey Tunnel was by accident, due
>>>>> to being in the wrong lane when we came around a corner & spotting the
>>>>> signs, but it being too late to cross two lanes of busy traffic.
>>>>
>>>> There is a tunnel? I thought you had to use a ferry in that part of the
>>>> world.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’ve seen the tunnel, I did go across the Mersey. It was a boat trip and
>>> we picked more punters up from there.
>>>
>> Were the first lot of punters worn out ?
>> Must have been very long poles on those punts.
>>
>>
>
> Too sharp by half, Britters.
>
> I’m not really a boat person and was happy to hide on the lower deck with
> a 12 guide dog if it felt too frail in its legs to climb to the top deck.
> He was having nine of that and raced after his good dog friend aged 8. I
> had no choice, the others nagged me to go up. It was cold but sunny and
> eventually I survived. The bribery (these girls know me too well) was
> better photos.
>
> Mrs McT
>
>

Mine Dew, when the Toodles went for a boat trip on our wedding anniversary,
the crew heard that it was our anniversary and offered me the opportunity
to ‘take the helm’ for a while - which I did, I didn’t have the heart to
tell them I am registered blind.;-))) No-one came to any harm and I didn’t
hit any of the moorings or impinge upon the land belonging to the landed
gentry / celebs who reside along the Thames banks.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan