On 04/01/2024 10:52, JMB99 wrote:
> On 04/01/2024 09:23, Ken wrote:
>> Sounds like typical Mail shit-stirring.
>
>
> Nothing wrong with a bit of shit-stirring but I suppose you write off
> these campaigns as 'shit-stirring'?
>
> Mercy airlift: A daring mission to transport 100 Vietnamese orphans to
> safety as war ravaged the region, the Stephen Lawrence murder, and a PPE
> shortage during the global Covid pandemic... the Mail campaigns that
> changed the world
>
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9543629/The-Mail-campaigns-changed-world.html
>
>
>
>
The Mail campaigns that made fuck all difference...
--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

Scott wrote:

> Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>
>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>
>> poor according to who?
>> poor on which network(s)?
>
> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.

That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
power-cut are to the emergency services ...

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 14:37:16 +0000, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk>
wrote:

>Scott wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>
>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>
>>> poor according to who?
>>> poor on which network(s)?
>>
>> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.
>
>That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
>power-cut are to the emergency services ...

Yes indeed, I was making that assumption. If the duty is to provide an
'emergency option' I suggest this may well suffice. What are the
public told to do if they witness a fire?

On 04/01/2024 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>
>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>
>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>
>>> poor according to who?
>>> poor on which network(s)?
>>
>> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.
>
> That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
> power-cut are to the emergency services ...

That is all Ofcom are expecting - even access to 105 is not required.

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/01/2024 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Scott wrote:
>>
>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>
>>>> poor according to who?
>>>> poor on which network(s)?
>>>
>>> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.
>>
>> That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
>> power-cut are to the emergency services ...
>
> That is all Ofcom are expecting - even access to 105 is not required.
>

In my experience you can’t get through to the power company during a power
cut because everyone else is trying the same. Maybe it’s improved since 105
came along.

On 04/01/2024 15:41, Tweed wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/01/2024 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>
>>>>> poor according to who?
>>>>> poor on which network(s)?
>>>>
>>>> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.
>>>
>>> That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
>>> power-cut are to the emergency services ...
>>
>> That is all Ofcom are expecting - even access to 105 is not required.
>>
>
> In my experience you can’t get through to the power company during a power
> cut because everyone else is trying the same. Maybe it’s improved since 105
> came along.
>
Exactly. What you *can* do with a smartish mobile phone is get onto
their website and register for text message updates.
These are generally accurate enough.

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

On 04/01/2024 16:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 04/01/2024 15:41, Tweed wrote:
>> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/01/2024 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people with
>>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> poor according to who?
>>>>>> poor on which network(s)?
>>>>>
>>>>> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.
>>>>
>>>> That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
>>>> power-cut are to the emergency services ...
>>>
>>>   That is all Ofcom are expecting - even access to 105 is not required.
>>
>> In my experience you can’t get through to the power company during a power
>> cut because everyone else is trying the same. Maybe it’s improved since 105
>> came along.
>>
> Exactly. What you *can* do with a smartish  mobile phone is get onto their
> website and register for text message updates.

Possibly *you* can, there is no mobile data around here (Ofcom suggest
Three have some, so I got a free SIM, no coverage inside my house).

On 04/01/2024 16:19, Nick Finnigan wrote:
> On 04/01/2024 16:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 04/01/2024 15:41, Tweed wrote:
>>> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/01/2024 14:37, Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>> Scott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nick Finnigan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There has to be a one hour emergency option available for people
>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>> poor indoor mobile coverage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> poor according to who?
>>>>>>> poor on which network(s)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I thought emergency calls could be routed via any network.
>>>>>
>>>>> That seems to assume the only calls which need to be made during a
>>>>> power-cut are to the emergency services ...
>>>>
>>>>   That is all Ofcom are expecting - even access to 105 is not required.
>>>
>>> In my experience you can’t get through to the power company during a
>>> power
>>> cut because everyone else is trying the same. Maybe it’s improved
>>> since 105
>>> came along.
>>>
>> Exactly. What you *can* do with a smartish  mobile phone is get onto
>> their website and register for text message updates.
>
>  Possibly *you* can, there is no mobile data around here (Ofcom suggest
> Three have some, so I got a free SIM, no coverage inside my house).
>

Mmm. 3 do wifi calling if your phone supports it apropos of nothing relevant

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

On 4 Jan 2024 09:37:20 GMT, Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:

>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 03 Jan 2024 13:39:53 +0000, Scott
>> <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 14:14:54 +0100, Marco Moock
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder what the universal service obligation and equality law say
>>>>> about this, if the evidence suggests that pensioners are
>>>>> disproportionately affected (age being a protected characteristic).
>>>>
>>>> They are not excluded from the telephone service
>>>
>>> They will be if there is a power cut of more than one hour.
>>>
>> That covers those with a wired phone. The majority have DECT, with no
>> tolerance for power cuts.
>>
>
>But telephone companies have never had responsibility to maintain service
>for customers with DECT handsets. That has always rested with the customer.
>
>
Yes, but many, even most, of those complaining that they'll lose
service during a power cut after the switch will, in fact, be in no
worse a position than they are today.
>Tim

On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:00:22 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 04/01/2024 09:37, Tim+ wrote:
>> But telephone companies have never had responsibility to maintain service
>> for customers with DECT handsets. That has always rested with the customer.
>
>
>There is still a socket that a standard wired phone can be plugged into.
>I have a wall mounted phone near my master socket and can be quickly
>plugged if needed.
>
Yes, but you know that DECT phones need external power and that
directly plugged-in ones (normally) don't. I suspect that a great
number of people who are getting exercised by the power cut issue
presented by VoIP have no idea that they are already vulnerable in
this way.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 09:46:25 +0000, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 4 Jan 2024 11:00:22 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
>
>>On 04/01/2024 09:37, Tim+ wrote:
>>> But telephone companies have never had responsibility to maintain service
>>> for customers with DECT handsets. That has always rested with the customer.
>>
>>
>>There is still a socket that a standard wired phone can be plugged into.
>>I have a wall mounted phone near my master socket and can be quickly
>>plugged if needed.
>>
>Yes, but you know that DECT phones need external power and that
>directly plugged-in ones (normally) don't. I suspect that a great
>number of people who are getting exercised by the power cut issue
>presented by VoIP have no idea that they are already vulnerable in
>this way.

Mine carried a clear instruction that a corded phone should be
available to use in emergencies.

Am 04.01.2024 um 11:49:00 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> I think that is the reality now but I was just thinking in a judicial
> review there would be an argument to be had. Also, there is an
> election coming up and which demographic is most likely to vote?

Most people don't care about the technology they use as long as they
can use it.

As some guys already mentioned, many people use DECT phones and I
assume most of them don't know that they can use a corded phone in case
of a power cut.

Most elderly people will simply complain because something is being
changed.

If they can continue using their analog line without noticing that
something at the exchange changed (it already happened when digital
exchanges were introduced).
Providing analog lines with current equipment is possible. Having that
machines connected to a UPS is also possible, but do customers REALLY
care if they don't know about the change?

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:48:30 +0100, Marco Moock
<mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:

>Am 04.01.2024 um 11:49:00 Uhr schrieb Scott:
>
>> I think that is the reality now but I was just thinking in a judicial
>> review there would be an argument to be had. Also, there is an
>> election coming up and which demographic is most likely to vote?
>
>Most people don't care about the technology they use as long as they
>can use it.

Yes, but it's not 'most people'. It is a two particular demographics,
older an more vulnerable people, that the concern relates to.
>
>As some guys already mentioned, many people use DECT phones and I
>assume most of them don't know that they can use a corded phone in case
>of a power cut.

Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
>
>Most elderly people will simply complain because something is being
>changed.

If they are likely to take their grievance to the ballot box, will
this not elevate this to a political issue (like the station ticket
offices where most people buy tickets electronically)?
>
>If they can continue using their analog line without noticing that
>something at the exchange changed (it already happened when digital
>exchanges were introduced).
>Providing analog lines with current equipment is possible. Having that
>machines connected to a UPS is also possible, but do customers REALLY
>care if they don't know about the change?

I think (without having read the Daily Mail article) the point is that
the supplied backup is only good for one hour and a power cut could
last seven days. This is something some customers may well notice.

As someone about to move to VOIP, I am not arguing from my own
perspective (I will make sure I have backup) but suggesting there is a
problem for some members of society.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:

>>As some guys already mentioned, many people use DECT phones and I
>>assume most of them don't know that they can use a corded phone in case
>>of a power cut.
>
> Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

Indeed, I have a corded phone and so does my Aged P, as there have been
enough power cuts and problems with cordless phones to make it a good
troubleshooting backup. And of course if you report a fault it is a good
idea to plug a corded phone into the first/main phone socket to elimine
other problems.

VOIP has caused many problems for my Aged P. Still ongoing....

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> In reality OfCom is going to make some placatory sounding statements (I
> think they already have) without actually forcing anything concrete. The
> industry can’t afford to keep the copper network going for just emergency
> use and I can’t see the general public willing to accept a mandatory
> surcharge. Most people aren’t interested in copper for emergency use, and
> once you lose the economies of scale the costs per line go up very rapidly.

And increasingly few people use copper landlines for calls, so once they
have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by those few
who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the costs of maintaining
the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able to pay the true costs even
if they were forced to, the death spiral will accelerate very rapidly.

So today's enforced switchover to VOIP over FTTC might be delayed and the
exchange shutdown programme paused temporarily, but ultimately once FTTP is
installed in an area (and offered at the same price as copper for an
equivalent or better service) most people will migrate away from ADSL/FTTC
and the copper service will rapidly become uneconomic to support.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:

> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by those few
> who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the costs of maintaining
> the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able to pay the true costs even
> if they were forced to, the death spiral will accelerate very rapidly.

What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:

>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>
>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by those few
>> who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the costs of maintaining
>> the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able to pay the true costs even
>> if they were forced to, the death spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
>
>What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
>even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.

Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:

> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>
>>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
>>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
>>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able
>>> to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death spiral
>>> will accelerate very rapidly.
>>
>>What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>>expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
>>even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>
> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?

I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
cope.

Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> >Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> >
> >> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by those few
> >> who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the costs of maintaining
> >> the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able to pay the true costs even
> >> if they were forced to, the death spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
> >
> >What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
> >expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
> >even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>
> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?

At last someone else has realised what I have been saying all along.
Selling off the family siver ...er, copper.

--
~ Liz Tuddenham ~
(Remove the ".invalid"s and add ".co.uk" to reply)
www.poppyrecords.co.uk

On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:29:16 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>>>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
>>>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
>>>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able
>>>> to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death spiral
>>>> will accelerate very rapidly.
>>>
>>>What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>>>expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
>>>even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>>
>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>
>I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
>repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
>crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
>cope.

I heard about the doctor who phoned the plumber in a panic at 3 am to
deal with a leak in the toilet. The plumber said, 'Just put two
aspirins down the pan then call me back when my office opens at 9 am.'

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 14:38:06 +0000, liz@poppyrecords.invalid.invalid
(Liz Tuddenham) wrote:

>Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>> >
>> >> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by those few
>> >> who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the costs of maintaining
>> >> the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able to pay the true costs even
>> >> if they were forced to, the death spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
>> >
>> >What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>> >expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
>> >even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>>
>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>
>At last someone else has realised what I have been saying all along.
>Selling off the family siver ...er, copper.

Is this also why there is a shortage of police officers :-)

Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>
>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
>>>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
>>>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be able
>>>> to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death spiral
>>>> will accelerate very rapidly.
>>>
>>> What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>>> expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
>>> even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>>
>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>
> I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
> repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
> crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
> cope.
>

A copper network requires ducts, multicore cables to the exchange, and
exchange buildings and the associated exchange equipment. Those costs are
currently shared by many subscribers. If the numbers of subscribers to the
copper system collapse (which they will despite the fuss) the costs of the
above will not fall in direct proportion to the loss of subscribers. The
question the Mail has failed to ask is are you willing to pay 2, 3 or 4
times your current line rental to keep the service.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes:

> Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
>>>>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
>>>>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
>>>>> able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
>>>>> spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
>>>>
>>>> What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>>>> expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always
>>>> did, even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>>>
>>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>>
>> I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
>> repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
>> crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
>> cope.
>>
>
> A copper network requires ducts, multicore cables to the exchange, and
> exchange buildings and the associated exchange equipment. Those costs
> are currently shared by many subscribers. If the numbers of
> subscribers to the copper system collapse (which they will despite the
> fuss) the costs of the above will not fall in direct proportion to the
> loss of subscribers. The question the Mail has failed to ask is are
> you willing to pay 2, 3 or 4 times your current line rental to keep
> the service.

I am quite happy for them to put an overhead wire to a cabinet. I don't
really need my wire to go all the way to the exchange. What's the true
cost of an overhead wire to a cabinet?

Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
>>>>>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
>>>>>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
>>>>>> able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
>>>>>> spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
>>>>>
>>>>> What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>>>>> expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always
>>>>> did, even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>>>>
>>>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>>>
>>> I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
>>> repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
>>> crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
>>> cope.
>>>
>>
>> A copper network requires ducts, multicore cables to the exchange, and
>> exchange buildings and the associated exchange equipment. Those costs
>> are currently shared by many subscribers. If the numbers of
>> subscribers to the copper system collapse (which they will despite the
>> fuss) the costs of the above will not fall in direct proportion to the
>> loss of subscribers. The question the Mail has failed to ask is are
>> you willing to pay 2, 3 or 4 times your current line rental to keep
>> the service.
>
> I am quite happy for them to put an overhead wire to a cabinet. I don't
> really need my wire to go all the way to the exchange. What's the true
> cost of an overhead wire to a cabinet?
>
>

What do you expect to happen in the cabinet? If it is a current FTTC
cabinet it will stop working a few hours into a power cut, so you are no
better off. Once FTTP comes along the cabinets will vanish as well.

On 05/01/2024 10:46, Scott wrote:
> Mine carried a clear instruction that a corded phone should be
> available to use in emergencies.

You are in an extremely small minority that reads instructions!