On 05/01/2024 15:34, David Woolley wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 10:46, Scott wrote:
>> Mine carried a clear instruction that a corded phone should be
>> available to use in emergencies.
>
> You are in an extremely small minority that reads instructions!

That's Darwinism at work.....

On 05/01/2024 16:36, Richmond wrote:

>
> Incidentally I have had a 1km copper line for 14 years and only two
> faults in that time that I recall. So you aren't quoting an average.

It's not the cable that's the problem, it's the joints.

BTW What's the longest possible length of continuous cable that
Openreach might have installed ?

Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> writes:

> On 05/01/2024 16:36, Richmond wrote:
>
>> Incidentally I have had a 1km copper line for 14 years and only two
>> faults in that time that I recall. So you aren't quoting an average.
>
>
> It's not the cable that's the problem, it's the joints.
>
> BTW What's the longest possible length of continuous cable that
> Openreach might have installed ?

How long is a piece of string? I'll tell you if you tell me the 'true
cost'.

(10km).

On 06/01/2024 17:42, Richmond wrote:
> Mark Carver <mark@invalid.com> writes:
>
>> On 05/01/2024 16:36, Richmond wrote:
>>
>>> Incidentally I have had a 1km copper line for 14 years and only two
>>> faults in that time that I recall. So you aren't quoting an average.
>>
>>
>> It's not the cable that's the problem, it's the joints.
>>
>> BTW What's the longest possible length of continuous cable that
>> Openreach might have installed ?
>
> How long is a piece of string? I'll tell you if you tell me the 'true
> cost'.
>
> (10km).

Unlikely. If it's a long bit of drop-wire serving a handful of
dwellings, 350 metres ?

https://www.fscables.com/products/bt-drop-wire.html

Am 05.01.2024 um 15:34:59 Uhr schrieb David Woolley:

> On 05/01/2024 10:46, Scott wrote:
> > Mine carried a clear instruction that a corded phone should be
> > available to use in emergencies.
>
> You are in an extremely small minority that reads instructions!

If people don't read them, they shouldn't complain about failures.

Am 05.01.2024 um 12:09:33 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:48:30 +0100, Marco Moock
> <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
>
> >Am 04.01.2024 um 11:49:00 Uhr schrieb Scott:
> >
> >> I think that is the reality now but I was just thinking in a
> >> judicial review there would be an argument to be had. Also, there
> >> is an election coming up and which demographic is most likely to
> >> vote?
> >
> >Most people don't care about the technology they use as long as they
> >can use it.
>
> Yes, but it's not 'most people'. It is a two particular demographics,
> older an more vulnerable people, that the concern relates to.

Do they really care?
What is the price they are willing to pay for uninterrupted telephone
service?
UPS at home, redundant internet connections, backup cellular and
satellite telephone.
All of that is available, but cost money.

> >As some guys already mentioned, many people use DECT phones and I
> >assume most of them don't know that they can use a corded phone in
> >case of a power cut.
>
> Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!

I told facts.

> >Most elderly people will simply complain because something is being
> >changed.
>
> If they are likely to take their grievance to the ballot box, will
> this not elevate this to a political issue (like the station ticket
> offices where most people buy tickets electronically)?

Has the government the power to enforce certain technology in carrier's
network's?

> >If they can continue using their analog line without noticing that
> >something at the exchange changed (it already happened when digital
> >exchanges were introduced).
> >Providing analog lines with current equipment is possible. Having
> >that machines connected to a UPS is also possible, but do customers
> >REALLY care if they don't know about the change?
>
> I think (without having read the Daily Mail article) the point is that
> the supplied backup is only good for one hour and a power cut could
> last seven days. This is something some customers may well notice.

Of course, but isn't that a general problem of the power company?
I doubt that the old exchanges had an UPS that lasts that long.

> As someone about to move to VOIP, I am not arguing from my own
> perspective (I will make sure I have backup) but suggesting there is a
> problem for some members of society.

I agree with that, but I think that is a more general problem for them.
No stair lifts will work, no fridge, no light.
I think a power outage for multiple days is the big problem here.

Am 05.01.2024 um 12:43:36 Uhr schrieb Richmond:

> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>
> >>As some guys already mentioned, many people use DECT phones and I
> >>assume most of them don't know that they can use a corded phone in
> >>case of a power cut.
> >
> > Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
>
> Indeed, I have a corded phone and so does my Aged P, as there have
> been enough power cuts and problems with cordless phones to make it a
> good troubleshooting backup. And of course if you report a fault it
> is a good idea to plug a corded phone into the first/main phone
> socket to elimine other problems.
>
> VOIP has caused many problems for my Aged P. Still ongoing....

What were those problems?

Am 05.01.2024 um 14:15:59 Uhr schrieb Richmond:

> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>
> > have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
> > those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
> > costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
> > able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
> > spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
>
> What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
> expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
> even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.

You need people who manage the exchanges.
Routing needs to be established between the old exchanges and VoIP and
all goes through VoIP and only a linecard in the cabinet provides POTS.
Those linecards need to be bought.

You also need people who have the knowledge to do that.

If that costs will be put on the telephone bill, I think many people
will switch to VoIP.

Am 05.01.2024 um 14:22:47 Uhr schrieb Scott:

> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> wrote:
>
> >Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> >
> >> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
> >> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
> >> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
> >> able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
> >> spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
> >
> >What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
> >expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
> >even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>
> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?

I don't think that this will be profitable. Think about the loan costs
of the workers.

Am 05.01.2024 um 14:29:16 Uhr schrieb Richmond:

> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>
> > On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com>
> > wrote:
> >>Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> >>
> >>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
> >>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
> >>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
> >>> able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
> >>> spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
> >>
> >>What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
> >>expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
> >>even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
> >
> > Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>
> I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
> repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
> crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
> cope.

Is steeling copper wires really a ting in the UK?

Am 05.01.2024 um 15:36:34 Uhr schrieb Richmond:

> Local power cuts are just one of the problems. Power cuts in the house
> are also a problem, as are people unplugging routers because they
> don't know what they are.

Then it is their problem. There is an instruction manual that tells the
purpose of it. Another way is to place a sticky note on the socket to
tell then not to unplug it.

> Also strange problems with phoning out
> which no one yet understands.
>
> Wouldn't it be better to have a cabinet with a UPS than every house
> having a UPS?

That would be nice, but most customers don't request that.

> What's the true cost of an overhead wire to a cabinet?

As long as that wire already exist and isn't going to be damaged, it is
zero.

Am 05.01.2024 um 16:00:36 Uhr schrieb Tweed:

> Younger people are wedded to mobiles and see no need to pay for a
> landline phone.

They also prefer using WhatsApp or Discord to have phone calls to
others because most of them use those services.

Am 05.01.2024 um 16:30:06 Uhr schrieb Richmond:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> > On 05/01/2024 14:15, Richmond wrote:
> >> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
> >>
> >>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
> >>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
> >>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
> >>> able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
> >>> spiral will accelerate very rapidly. >> What is the true cost? I
> >>> don't see how it can be so astronomically >> expensive to
> >>> maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did, >> even
> >>> when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
> >>
> > Old copper? I was getting about 4 engineer visits a year at probably
> > around £400 a visit with all the travel fuel test kit and so on.
> >
> > You happy to pay £1600 a year for line rental?
>
> How did we ever have phone lines then? There were fewer subscribers in
> the sixties and seventies than there are now. And yet we could do
> it. Now we must believe it is impossible.

All of those customers used that lines, now more customers exist, but
many of them won't use them anymore in the future.
That means that maintaining that copper network will mean more costs
per subscriber.

Marco Moock wrote:

> schrieb Scott:
>
>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>
> I don't think that this will be profitable. Think about the loan costs
> of the workers.

Last I heard, BT said they would recover about 200,000 tonnes of copper
in the 2030s ...

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> schrieb Scott:
>>
>>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>>
>> I don't think that this will be profitable. Think about the loan costs
>> of the workers.
>
> Last I heard, BT said they would recover about 200,000 tonnes of copper
> in the 2030s ...
>
>
>

In round figures at today’s scrap prices that works out at about £1000
million (written thus to avoid arguments about what constitutes a billion…)

it will be a race between BT/OR and the thieves.

On 07/01/2024 11:32, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 05.01.2024 um 12:09:33 Uhr schrieb Scott:

>> As someone about to move to VOIP, I am not arguing from my own
>> perspective (I will make sure I have backup) but suggesting there is a
>> problem for some members of society.
>
"A socialist is someone who wants the government to do to someone else
what he cant be arsed to do himself"

> I agree with that, but I think that is a more general problem for them.
> No stair lifts will work, no fridge, no light.
> I think a power outage for multiple days is the big problem here.
>

Indeed. There are people on life support kit at home. If the power goes,
they are fucked.

--
“But what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an
hypothesis!”

Mary Wollstonecraft

On 07/01/2024 11:56, Andy Burns wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> schrieb Scott:
>>
>>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>>
>> I don't think that this will be profitable. Think about the loan costs
>> of the workers.
>
> Last I heard, BT said they would recover about 200,000 tonnes of copper
> in the 2030s ...
>
>
$8,346.00 per ton is today's spot price, Of refined metal.

£2000 per ton is today's scrap price for copper cable.

so probably around £400 million in value

Openreach is valued at £26 billion

Rolling out FTTP is expected to cost £25bn

So its a bit, but not a huge bit, of the costs.

--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 07/01/2024 11:39, Marco Moock wrote:
> Am 05.01.2024 um 14:29:16 Uhr schrieb Richmond:
>
>> Scott <newsgroups@gefion.myzen.co.uk> writes:
>>
>>> On Fri, 05 Jan 2024 14:15:59 +0000, Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> have gone FTTP the copper landline service will only be used by
>>>>> those few who make voice calls. Since they won't be paying the
>>>>> costs of maintaining the copper infrastructure, and wouldn't be
>>>>> able to pay the true costs even if they were forced to, the death
>>>>> spiral will accelerate very rapidly.
>>>>
>>>> What is the true cost? I don't see how it can be so astronomically
>>>> expensive to maintain a copper wire, especially since we always did,
>>>> even when there were fewer landlines than there are now.
>>>
>>> Could it be the opportunity cost of selling all the scrap copper?
>>
>> I think it might be one of those things which becomes true by
>> repetition, like the police are short of staff so cannot investigate
>> crimes, the NHS is short of staff so don't phone your GP, they can't
>> cope.
>
> Is steeling copper wires really a ting in the UK?
>
Sure

At 2000 a tonne, even a few pounds of cable will net you a few pounds
of money

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> writes:

> Then it is their problem.

No it isn't because everything was fine until Virgin Media forced a
change. Let's not forget who is paying.

> There is an instruction manual that tells the
> purpose of it. Another way is to place a sticky note on the socket to
> tell then not to unplug it.

I didn't see any instruction manual actually. I am sure Virgin Media
would agree with you. I expect they think everyone is a 25 year old
telephone engineer. But why didn't they stick a note on it? It was their
idea to put a hub in afterall.

Marco Moock wrote:

> Is steeling copper wires really a ting in the UK?

While I was still on ADSL a 400-pair cable running into the village was
stolen ... twice, about one weeks outage each time.

Am 07.01.2024 um 13:36:32 Uhr schrieb Andy Burns:

> Marco Moock wrote:
>
> > Is steeling copper wires really a ting in the UK?
>
> While I was still on ADSL a 400-pair cable running into the village
> was stolen ... twice, about one weeks outage each time.

Were those cable underground or over the ground (what is the proper
word for that)?

Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> Am 07.01.2024 um 13:36:32 Uhr schrieb Andy Burns:
>
>> Marco Moock wrote:
>>
>>> Is steeling copper wires really a ting in the UK?
>>
>> While I was still on ADSL a 400-pair cable running into the village
>> was stolen ... twice, about one weeks outage each time.
>
> Were those cable underground or over the ground (what is the proper
> word for that)?
>
>

Ducted underground cables get stolen in rural areas. The standard method is
to find the underground chamber entrance (manhole), cut cable, find next
manhole, attach cable to big vehicle and drive. BT run alarm signals in one
of the pairs, but the thieves are long gone before anyone gets to the site.
It does speed up the introduction of FTTP as a colleague found out.

Am 07.01.2024 um 14:01:23 Uhr schrieb Tweed:

> Marco Moock <mm+usenet-es@dorfdsl.de> wrote:
> > Am 07.01.2024 um 13:36:32 Uhr schrieb Andy Burns:
> >
> >> Marco Moock wrote:
> >>
> >>> Is steeling copper wires really a ting in the UK?
> >>
> >> While I was still on ADSL a 400-pair cable running into the village
> >> was stolen ... twice, about one weeks outage each time.
> >
> > Were those cable underground or over the ground (what is the proper
> > word for that)?
> >
> >
>
> Ducted underground cables get stolen in rural areas. The standard
> method is to find the underground chamber entrance (manhole), cut
> cable, find next manhole, attach cable to big vehicle and drive. BT
> run alarm signals in one of the pairs, but the thieves are long gone
> before anyone gets to the site. It does speed up the introduction of
> FTTP as a colleague found out.

I hope people are not cutting cable to get FTTH faster. :-)

Marco Moock wrote:

> schrieb Andy Burns:
>
>> While I was still on ADSL a 400-pair cable running into the village
>> was stolen ... twice, about one weeks outage each time.
>
> Were those cable underground or over the ground

underground in ducts.

> (what is the proper word for that)?

overhead, or on poles, but 400 pairs would be too heavy for that ...

On 07/01/2024 14:23, Andy Burns wrote:
> Marco Moock wrote:
>
>> schrieb Andy Burns:
>>
>>> While I was still on ADSL a 400-pair cable running into the village
>>> was stolen ... twice, about one weeks outage each time.
>>
>> Were those cable underground or over the ground
>
> underground in ducts.
>
>> (what is the proper word for that)?
>
> overhead, or on poles, but 400 pairs would be too heavy for that ...
>
Not always. Ive seen some seriously heavy stuff on overheads. Certainly
more than 20 pair, though 400 might be an issue.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey