Bill Borland <bill.g3efs@gmail.com> writes:

> Help! I am living in an old persons' Home and have no living
> relatives in this country. I would like to phone my daughter who lives
> in New Zealand; the only local calls I ever make are very occasional
> calls to doctor or hospital and occasional calls to one friend - all my
> old friends are dead (I am 97 and have outlived them all). So what I am
> looking for is the cheapest available calls to N.Z. Can anyone
> recommend a suitable network?
>
> Many thanks, and best regards.

You don't say whether you want to use a landline or a mobile or a
smartphone, or whether the recipient has a landline smartphone or mobile

Voipfone charges 2.1p per minute to New Zealand landline
Skype charges 2.2p per minute.

On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ mobile.
> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great idea).
>
> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are free if you
> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of those.
>
> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays' to NZ,
> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines only.
>

Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works on 4G
and WiFi on my phones.

--
The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to
fight for it. - Aneurin Bevan

On 27 Mar 2024 14:01:53 GMT, Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> wrote:
>
> QUOTE “First, [Signal is] end-to-end encrypted (E2EE) by default. That
> means only you and your recipient(s) on Signal can read your messages.
> [Even] the creators of Signal cannot peek inside your conversations. While
> other services like Facebook Messenger and Telegram include an E2EE option,
> Signal is one of the very few to make it mandatory. Bear in mind that
> Signal is built for privacy, not anonymity. In fact, its main concern is
> ensuring that you're speaking securely with only the people you intend, not
> hiding your identity.
>
> Second, Signal has no incentive to sell your data. It's a 501(c)(3)
> non-profit organization registered in the US. Companies are keen to grab
> your data so they can target you for ads or simply sell that information to
> someone else. That's just not Signal's model. WhatsApp is also free, but it
> sits atop of Meta's data mining empire. Telegram is still trying to figure
> out its monetization” ENDQUOTE [from a review]
>
> Signal is funded through grants and donations.
>
I donate to Signal. Money well spent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moxie_Marlinspike

https://moxie.org/

--
"That they’re an armed, racist gang." - Moxie Marlinspike,
Rolling Stone July 31 2016 About the Police

Julian Macassey <julian@n6are.com> wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ mobile.
> > (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great idea).
> >
> > They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are free if you
> > have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of those.
> >
> > Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays' to NZ,
> > but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines only.
> >
>
> Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works on 4G
> and WiFi on my phones.

Signal only works if your correspondent also has Signal installed. It's no
good for making calls to random phone numbers, and they removed the SMS
feature so you can now only use it to text people who have Signal.

If you have a smartphone or tablet and can convince your correspondent to
install Signal then I agree it's a good option.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>
> Signal only works if your correspondent also has Signal installed. It's no
> good for making calls to random phone numbers, and they removed the SMS
> feature so you can now only use it to text people who have Signal.

The OP only wants to contact his daughter in NZ, not random numbers.

>
> If you have a smartphone or tablet and can convince your correspondent to
> install Signal then I agree it's a good option.
>
> Theo
>

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ <timdownieuk@yahoo.co.youkay> wrote:
> Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > Signal only works if your correspondent also has Signal installed. It's no
> > good for making calls to random phone numbers, and they removed the SMS
> > feature so you can now only use it to text people who have Signal.
>
> The OP only wants to contact his daughter in NZ, not random numbers.

We don't know whether the daughter has Signal or even a smartphone. We also
don't know whether she is amenable installing things - if this is 'I want
to call my long lost daughter in NZ' then it's different to 'I chat to my
daughter every week but it's expensive, how can I make it cheaper?'.

If the OP runs Signal and his daughter isn't on Signal, she will just not
exist as far as the app is concerned. He might have the number but he can't
call it from Signal. So it's mostly not useful for calling someone unless
you've told them to install the app first.

The internet says the most popular communication app in NZ is Facebook
Messenger, with Signal coming in at #10:
https://www.similarweb.com/top-apps/google/new-zealand/communication/

so quite likely she doesn't have it installed.

Theo

On 27/03/2024 22:50, Julian Macassey wrote:
> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ mobile.
>> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great idea).
>>
>> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are free if you
>> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of those.
>>
>> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays' to NZ,
>> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines only.
>>
>
> Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works on 4G
> and WiFi on my phones.
>
>
The problem I found was what my relatives could or would be prepared to
use on *their* end.

Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 28 Mar 2024 11:30:35 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Julian Macassey <julian@n6are.com> wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> > It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ mobile.
>> > (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great idea).
>> >
>> > They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are free if you
>> > have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of those.
>> >
>> > Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays' to NZ,
>> > but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines only.
>> >
>>
>> Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works on 4G
>> and WiFi on my phones.
>
> Signal only works if your correspondent also has Signal installed.

Yup, that's the point. But it is easy to set up.

> It's no good for making calls to random phone numbers,

The request was how to make affordble calls to a single recipient in
a foreign country. Signal will do that.

> and they removed the SMS feature so you can now only use it to text people
> who have Signal.

Which is a feature. No fraud attempts like SMS.
>
> If you have a smartphone or tablet and can convince your correspondent to
> install Signal then I agree it's a good option.

--
“I think law enforcement should be difficult. And it should
actually be possible to break the law.” - Moxie Marlinspike,
March RSA Conf' 2016

On 28 Mar 2024 13:14:36 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
> The internet says the most popular communication app in NZ is Facebook
> Messenger, with Signal coming in at #10:
> https://www.similarweb.com/top-apps/google/new-zealand/communication/

I am not surprised.
>
> so quite likely she doesn't have it installed.

Then all she has to do is install it.

Problem solved.

--
The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to
fight for it. - Aneurin Bevan

On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>On 27/03/2024 22:50, Julian Macassey wrote:
>> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ mobile.
>>> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great idea).
>>>
>>> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are free if you
>>> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of those.
>>>
>>> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays' to NZ,
>>> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines only.
>>>
>>
>> Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works on 4G
>> and WiFi on my phones.
>>
>>
>The problem I found was what my relatives could or would be prepared to
>use on *their* end.
>
>Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone

And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.

On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 27/03/2024 22:50, Julian Macassey wrote:
>>> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ mobile.
>>>> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great idea).
>>>>
>>>> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are free if you
>>>> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of those.
>>>>
>>>> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays' to NZ,
>>>> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines only.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works on 4G
>>> and WiFi on my phones.
>>>
>>>
>> The problem I found was what my relatives could or would be prepared to
>> use on *their* end.
>>
>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>
> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.

I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
to force you into using an email address linked to the account.

If you have a throwaway email address like 'junk@mydomain.com' that you
can use, it helps, as do ad blockers like Ublock origin.

'Pay for advert free content' isn't that attractive when you don't see
the ads in the first place.

--
"The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow witted
man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest
thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly
persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid
before him."

- Leo Tolstoy

On 30/03/2024 10:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 27/03/2024 22:50, Julian Macassey wrote:
>>>> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ
>>>>> mobile.
>>>>> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great
>>>>> idea).
>>>>>
>>>>> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are
>>>>> free if you
>>>>> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of
>>>>> those.
>>>>>
>>>>> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays'
>>>>> to NZ,
>>>>> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines
>>>>> only.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>     Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works
>>>> on 4G
>>>> and WiFi on my phones.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> The problem I found was what my relatives could or would be prepared to
>>> use on *their* end.
>>>
>>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>>
>> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>
> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>
> If you have a throwaway email address like 'junk@mydomain.com' that you
> can use, it helps, as do ad blockers like Ublock origin.
>
> 'Pay for advert free content' isn't that attractive when you don't see
> the ads in the first place.
>
>
I think the attraction of WhatsApp is that it does not need an e-mail
address just a mobile number...

Dave

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
> > <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
> >
> > And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>
> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.

There are two privacy challenges:
1. WhatsApp wants to hoover up all your contacts 'to link you up with other
people on WhatsApp' - in other words uploading them all to Facebook.
They then know your social graph.

2. Whatsapp can still do traffic analysis - ie who talks when to whom for
how long. As any policeman will tell you, the phone logs of the accused
are often incriminating even if you didn't intercept the calls.

Theo

In article <uu8r5f$u0j4$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
<g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
>On 30/03/2024 10:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 27/03/2024 22:50, Julian Macassey wrote:
>>>>> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ
>>>>>> mobile.
>>>>>> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great
>>>>>> idea).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are
>>>>>> free if you
>>>>>> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of
>>>>>> those.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays'
>>>>>> to NZ,
>>>>>> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines
>>>>>> only.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>     Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works
>>>>> on 4G
>>>>> and WiFi on my phones.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> The problem I found was what my relatives could or would be prepared to
>>>> use on *their* end.
>>>>
>>>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>>>
>>> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>>
>> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
>> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>>
>> If you have a throwaway email address like 'junk@mydomain.com' that you
>> can use, it helps, as do ad blockers like Ublock origin.
>>
>> 'Pay for advert free content' isn't that attractive when you don't see
>> the ads in the first place.
>>
>>
>I think the attraction of WhatsApp is that it does not need an e-mail
>address just a mobile number...
>
>Dave

My thanks to all who have assisted.
--
Bill Borland

Bill Borland <bill.g3efs@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <uu8r5f$u0j4$1@dont-email.me>, David Wade
> <g4ugm@dave.invalid> writes
>> On 30/03/2024 10:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 27/03/2024 22:50, Julian Macassey wrote:
>>>>>> On 27 Mar 2024 15:13:00 +0000 (GMT), Theo
>>>>>> <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's not free, it's 0.7p/min to a NZ landline and 21p/min to a NZ
>>>>>>> mobile.
>>>>>>> (another reason why 'let's all just use mobiles' isn't such a great
>>>>>>> idea).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They have a 'freedays' promotion where certain destinations are
>>>>>>> free if you
>>>>>>> have topped up in the last 90 days, but it seems NZ isn't one of
>>>>>>> those.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Another Finarea/Betamax/Dellmont clone service may offer 'freedays'
>>>>>>> to NZ,
>>>>>>> but given the price of mobile calls it's likely to be NZ landlines
>>>>>>> only.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>     Get Signal, I run it on Android devices and Linux. Signal works
>>>>>> on 4G
>>>>>> and WiFi on my phones.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> The problem I found was what my relatives could or would be prepared to
>>>>> use on *their* end.
>>>>>
>>>>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>>>>
>>>> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>>>
>>> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
>>> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>>>
>>> If you have a throwaway email address like 'junk@mydomain.com' that you
>>> can use, it helps, as do ad blockers like Ublock origin.
>>>
>>> 'Pay for advert free content' isn't that attractive when you don't see
>>> the ads in the first place.
>>>
>>>
>> I think the attraction of WhatsApp is that it does not need an e-mail
>> address just a mobile number...
>>
>> Dave
>
> My thanks to all who have assisted.

Have you found a satisfactory solution?

Bill Borland <bill.g3efs@gmail.com> wrote:

> My thanks to all who have assisted.

Best of luck! Hope some of the advice has been useful.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 30/03/2024 11:11, Theo wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>>> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>>>
>>> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>>
>> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
>> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>
> There are two privacy challenges:
> 1. WhatsApp wants to hoover up all your contacts 'to link you up with other
> people on WhatsApp' - in other words uploading them all to Facebook.
> They then know your social graph.

Agreed that's why it free, you sell your soul to the devil ,similar can
be said about all free internet services.

There is a saying if you pay for something on the internet its the
product,if its free your the product.

>
> 2. Whatsapp can still do traffic analysis - ie who talks when to whom for
> how long. As any policeman will tell you, the phone logs of the accused
> are often incriminating even if you didn't intercept the calls.
>

Correct but anybody with access to you internet logs can regardless of
what Messaging system you use. In the UK the legislation is called
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.

If you use a VPN that marks you as interesting or suspicious to the
three letter agency's.

grinch <grinch@sommewhere.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > 2. Whatsapp can still do traffic analysis - ie who talks when to whom for
> > how long. As any policeman will tell you, the phone logs of the accused
> > are often incriminating even if you didn't intercept the calls.
> >
>
> Correct but anybody with access to you internet logs can regardless of
> what Messaging system you use. In the UK the legislation is called
> Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.
>
I run my own SMTP server on my desktop machine so, for E-Mail at
least, it's me that has access to my mail sending logs. I suppose I
*ought* to keep long term records and I do to some extent because I
back my systems up carefully. However, if I was being 'naughty' it
would be trivial to lose all my mail sending logs.

Also, in reality, I use a 'smart host' for sending E-Mail so that
should have records but, again, it would be very easy to bypass the
smart host if I wanted to hide my logs.

--
Chris Green
·

On 31/03/2024 10:55, grinch wrote:
> There is a saying if you pay for something  on the internet its the
> product,if its free your the product

There is a saying that if you pay for something on the internet then
it's for the product, but if it's free, then *you* are the product.

For anyone else who found the sheer laziness and wrong spelling in the
original indecipherable...

--
New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in
the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in
someone else's pocket.

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 10:38:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher :
>
> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>
> If you have a throwaway email address like 'junk@mydomain.com' that you
> can use, it helps, as do ad blockers like Ublock origin.
>
> 'Pay for advert free content' isn't that attractive when you don't see
> the ads in the first place.

Use Signal. No ads, and not connected to Zuckerberg who has proved he
can not be trusted.

--
"And yet here he is (Mark Zuckerberg), one of the most powerful
idiots in the world." - Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) 17 Jun 2021

On Sat, 30 Mar 2024 10:56:47 +0000, David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> wrote:
> I think the attraction of WhatsApp is that it does not need an e-mail
> address just a mobile number...

As does Signal. How about that.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/datasafety?id=org.thoughtcrime.securesms

--
The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to
fight for it. - Aneurin Bevan

On 30 Mar 2024 11:11:40 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>> > On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>> > <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>> >
>> > And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>>
>> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
>> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>
> There are two privacy challenges:
> 1. WhatsApp wants to hoover up all your contacts 'to link you up with other
> people on WhatsApp' - in other words uploading them all to Facebook.
> They then know your social graph.
>
> 2. Whatsapp can still do traffic analysis - ie who talks when to whom for
> how long. As any policeman will tell you, the phone logs of the accused
> are often incriminating even if you didn't intercept the calls.

Did I say that Zuckerberg wasn't to be trusted?

--
"And yet here he is (Mark Zuckerberg), one of the most powerful
idiots in the world." - Roger Waters (Pink Floyd) 17 Jun 2021

On 01/04/2024 10:06, Julian Macassey wrote:
> On 30 Mar 2024 11:11:40 +0000 (GMT), Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>>>>
>>>> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>>>
>>> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
>>> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>>
>> There are two privacy challenges:
>> 1. WhatsApp wants to hoover up all your contacts 'to link you up with other
>> people on WhatsApp' - in other words uploading them all to Facebook.
>> They then know your social graph.
>>
>> 2. Whatsapp can still do traffic analysis - ie who talks when to whom for
>> how long. As any policeman will tell you, the phone logs of the accused
>> are often incriminating even if you didn't intercept the calls.
>
> Did I say that Zuckerberg wasn't to be trusted?
>
No one is to be trusted. Insanely enough, for humans who cant take it
with them, there are people who are preoccupied with power and money
rather than just having a nice life.

I guess they were bottle fed as babies or something. It all smacks of
deep insecurity.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 10:55:07 +0100, grinch <grinch@sommewhere.com> wrote:
> On 30/03/2024 11:11, Theo wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 30/03/2024 10:31, Ken wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 28 Mar 2024 14:09:58 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
>>>> <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> Whatsapp being acceptable to almost everyone
>>>>
>>>> And with end to end encryption not the privacy risk some imagine.
>>>
>>> I think the key issues with all these apps is targeted ads, and trying
>>> to force you into using an email address linked to the account.
>>
>> There are two privacy challenges:
>> 1. WhatsApp wants to hoover up all your contacts 'to link you up with other
>> people on WhatsApp' - in other words uploading them all to Facebook.
>> They then know your social graph.
>
> Agreed that's why it free, you sell your soul to the devil ,similar can
> be said about all free internet services.
>
> There is a saying if you pay for something on the internet its the
> product,if its free your the product.
>
>>
>> 2. Whatsapp can still do traffic analysis - ie who talks when to whom for
>> how long. As any policeman will tell you, the phone logs of the accused
>> are often incriminating even if you didn't intercept the calls.
>>
>
> Correct but anybody with access to you internet logs can regardless of
> what Messaging system you use. In the UK the legislation is called
> Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000.
>
> If you use a VPN that marks you as interesting or suspicious to the
> three letter agency's.

If we all use VPNs, TOR etc. the signal to noise ratio will keep the
spooks busy.

--
“I think law enforcement should be difficult. And it should
actually be possible to break the law.” - Moxie Marlinspike,
March RSA Conf' 2016

On Sun, 31 Mar 2024 17:38:30 +0100, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 31/03/2024 10:55, grinch wrote:
>> There is a saying if you pay for something  on the internet its the
>> product,if its free your the product
>
> There is a saying that if you pay for something on the internet then
> it's for the product, but if it's free, then *you* are the product.
>
> For anyone else who found the sheer laziness and wrong spelling in the
> original indecipherable...
>

"If something is free, you're not the customer, you're the
product." Bruce Schneier, Data and Goliath, 2015

HTH

--
The NHS will last as long as there are folk left with faith to
fight for it. - Aneurin Bevan