Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>
>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>> the spring.
>>>>
>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>
>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>
>> Yet more lies.
>>
>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has
>>>> confirmed this afternoon that his opinion is nothing new has just been
>>>> agreed.
>>>>
>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>
>>> Yes, you.
>>>
>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>
>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>
>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>> are RMT members.
>>
>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>
>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>
> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>
>

Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?

Are there any other DOO areas?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>
>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>
>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>> because none were available.
>>>
>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>
>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>
>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that can be
>> operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs than cleaning the
>> toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original position. Larger stations
>> probably require staff to supervise evacuations/other emergencies. I
>> imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>
> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>
> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
> station staff.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>>> because none were available.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>>
>>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>>
>>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that can be
>>> operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs than cleaning the
>>> toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original position. Larger stations
>>> probably require staff to supervise evacuations/other emergencies. I
>>> imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>>
>> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>>
>> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
>> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
>> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
>> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
>> station staff.
>
> I don’t, but you can’t practically run a railway service if the more
> important/larger stations on the route need to be staffed.

In message <ukhluj$2qqot$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:19 on Sun, 3 Dec
2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>
>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>
>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>
>>> Yet more lies.
>>>
>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has confirmed this afternoon that his
>>>>>opinion is nothing new has just been agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>
>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>
>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>>
>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>>> are RMT members.
>>>
>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>
>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>
>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>
>Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>
>Are there any other DOO areas?

Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
running.

However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.

But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
--
Roland Perry

In message <ukhnrf$2r3bn$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:47 on Sun, 3 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>>
>>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>>
>>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>>> because none were available.
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>>
>>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>>
>>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that can be
>>> operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs than
>>>cleaning the
>>> toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original position. Larger stations
>>> probably require staff to supervise evacuations/other emergencies. I
>>> imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>>
>> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>>
>> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
>> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
>> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
>> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
>> station staff.
>
>I don’t, but you can’t practically run a railway service if the more
>important/larger stations on the route need to be staffed.

In message <SvZaN.12602$iIT1.4864@fx15.ams1>, at 11:20:18 on Sun, 3 Dec
2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>>>> because none were available.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that
>>>>can be operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs
>>>>than cleaning the toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original
>>>>position. Larger stations probably require staff to supervise
>>>>evacuations/other emergencies. I imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>>>
>>> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>>>
>>> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
>>> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
>>> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
>>> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
>>> station staff.
>>
>> I don’t, but you can’t practically run a railway service if the more
>> important/larger stations on the route need to be staffed.
>
>Don't RMT members also maintain, prepare and check the trains before they
>can enter service? Don't they sell and check tickets, and supervise
>barrier lines? Don't they provide passenger assistance? Don't they unlock
>the doors and turn on the station lights?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ukhluj$2qqot$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:19 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has confirmed this afternoon that his
>>>>>> opinion is nothing new has just been agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>
>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>>>
>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>>>> are RMT members.
>>>>
>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>
>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>>
>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>
>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>
>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>
> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
> running.
>
> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>
> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?

Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
especially the busy ones.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ukhnrf$2r3bn$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:12:47 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>>>> because none were available.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that can be
>>>> operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs than
>>>> cleaning the
>>>> toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original position. Larger stations
>>>> probably require staff to supervise evacuations/other emergencies. I
>>>> imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>>>
>>> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>>>
>>> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
>>> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
>>> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
>>> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
>>> station staff.
>>
>> I don’t, but you can’t practically run a railway service if the more
>> important/larger stations on the route need to be staffed.
>
> The really big/important stations are operated by Network Rail, and I
> thought their dispute with the RMT had been settled. Or is it just their
> track workers?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <SvZaN.12602$iIT1.4864@fx15.ams1>, at 11:20:18 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>>>>> because none were available.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>>>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>>>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>>>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>>>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>>>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>>>>
>>>>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that
>>>>> can be operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs
>>>>> than cleaning the toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original
>>>>> position. Larger stations probably require staff to supervise
>>>>> evacuations/other emergencies. I imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>>>>
>>>> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>>>>
>>>> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
>>>> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
>>>> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
>>>> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
>>>> station staff.
>>>
>>> I don’t, but you can’t practically run a railway service if the more
>>> important/larger stations on the route need to be staffed.
>>
>> Don't RMT members also maintain, prepare and check the trains before they
>> can enter service? Don't they sell and check tickets, and supervise
>> barrier lines? Don't they provide passenger assistance? Don't they unlock
>> the doors and turn on the station lights?
>
> Barriers can be locked open, ticket offices can be unstaffed (even if
> not permanently, plenty are only open for a short period of the day) and
> it only takes one person to unlock the concourse doors and switch the
> lights on.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ukhluj$2qqot$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:19 on Sun, 3 Dec
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has confirmed this afternoon that his
>>>>>>> opinion is nothing new has just been agreed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>>>>> are RMT members.
>>>>>
>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>
>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>
>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>
>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
>> running.
>>
>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
>> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>
>> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
>
> Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
> especially the busy ones.

Presumably it's a particular requirement on stations with curved platforms
or served by long trains?

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>
>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>
>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>
>>> Yet more lies.
>>>
>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has
>>>>> confirmed this afternoon that his opinion is nothing new has just been
>>>>> agreed.
>>>>>
>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>
>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>
>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>>
>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>>> are RMT members.
>>>
>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>
>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>
>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>
>>
>
> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>
> Are there any other DOO areas?

I don't think so, but there are DCO routes. It seems to be quite a
complicated picture, depending on historic agreements and train types.

<https://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/driver-only-operation-trains-rail-strikes-b2262938.html>

On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 14:54:38 +0000, Bevan Price
<bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:

>On 01/12/2023 13:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 01/12/2023 07:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>
>>>> ASLEF continue in their campaign to convince people to explore other
>>>> transport options than rail.
>>>>
>>> Do you have a reference to assert your claims?
>>>
>>
>> The RMT dispute is not 'settled' as such; the current industrial action is
>> called off as a pay deal for *2022* has been agreed; 2023's pay deal
>> negotiations and potential T&C changes begin in early 2024 at TOC level.
>>
>> ASLEF haven't been offered the same agreement as the RMT has; if that were
>> offered I feel confident that the forthcoming action would be postponed
>> while it was put to a vote [1].
>>
>> [1] ASLEF's rules (agreed and voted on by the members) state that a pay
>> deal cannot be put to the membership if the recommendation from the
>> Executive Committee is that members should reject it; that's why none of
>> the previous offers have been put to ballot.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
>I wonder what would happen if DfT/TOCs put more pressure on ASLEF - e.g.
>saying that for each future strike day, drivers' annual pay will be
>reduced by, say £1000 per year? (To help compensate for lost revenue. Of
>course that might mean some changes to the law, but there are probably
>enough Tories to force such a change through Parliament.)
>
Is that really the sort of society you want to live in?

In message <ukhp78$2r9di$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:08 on Sun, 3 Dec
2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>
>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>
>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
>> running.
>>
>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
>> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>
>> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
>
>Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
>especially the busy ones.

But is it an unnecessary luxury?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ukhluj$2qqot$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:19 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has confirmed this afternoon that his
>>>>>> opinion is nothing new has just been agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>
>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>>>
>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>>>> are RMT members.
>>>>
>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>
>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>>
>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>
>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>
>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>
> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
> running.
>
> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.

That, presumably, means they don't have DOO? I know Merseyrail backed down,
despite the new 777s being designed for DOO.

On 03/12/2023 12:12, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ukhp78$2r9di$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:08 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow
>>>> Suburban
>>>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but
>>>> 'guard' is
>>>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>>
>>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>>
>>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
>>> running.
>>>
>>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
>>> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>>
>>> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
>>
>> Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
>> especially the busy ones.
>
> But is it an unnecessary luxury?

Perhaps the train also visits other, unstaffed stations where a guard
is needed, and this station is served by other, DOO trains which require
platform dispatch staff. Or it's just a long train on a bendy platform.

In message <uki0if$2sa3m$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:41:35 on Sun, 3 Dec
2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>On 03/12/2023 12:12, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ukhp78$2r9di$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:08 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow
>>>>>Suburban
>>>>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but
>>>>>'guard' is
>>>>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>>>
>>>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
>>>> running.
>>>>
>>>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
>>>> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>>>
>>>> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
>>>
>>> Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
>>> especially the busy ones.

>> But is it an unnecessary luxury?
>
>Perhaps the train also visits other, unstaffed stations where a guard
>is needed, and this station is served by other, DOO trains which require
>platform dispatch staff. Or it's just a long train on a bendy platform.

A veritable confluence of edge cases! The thing about DOO trains is they
are supposed to have CCTV along the train so a bendy platform doesn't
matter. If anything it's a dispatcher who would have difficulty seeing
the whole length of the train at once.

I don't think guards are supplied only on trains which have
stations-which-require-a-guard. It's a one-size-fits-all thing for whole
TOCs.
--
Roland Perry

On 03/12/2023 12:12, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ukhp78$2r9di$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:36:08 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow
>>>> Suburban
>>>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but
>>>> 'guard' is
>>>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>>
>>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>>
>>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
>>> running.
>>>
>>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
>>> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>>
>>> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
>>
>> Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
>> especially the busy ones.
>
> But is it an unnecessary luxury?

No.

On 03/12/2023 12:01, Ken wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 14:54:38 +0000, Bevan Price
> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 01/12/2023 13:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 01/12/2023 07:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>
>>>>> ASLEF continue in their campaign to convince people to explore other
>>>>> transport options than rail.
>>>>>
>>>> Do you have a reference to assert your claims?
>>>>
>>>
>>> The RMT dispute is not 'settled' as such; the current industrial action is
>>> called off as a pay deal for *2022* has been agreed; 2023's pay deal
>>> negotiations and potential T&C changes begin in early 2024 at TOC level.
>>>
>>> ASLEF haven't been offered the same agreement as the RMT has; if that were
>>> offered I feel confident that the forthcoming action would be postponed
>>> while it was put to a vote [1].
>>>
>>> [1] ASLEF's rules (agreed and voted on by the members) state that a pay
>>> deal cannot be put to the membership if the recommendation from the
>>> Executive Committee is that members should reject it; that's why none of
>>> the previous offers have been put to ballot.
>>>
>>>
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>
>>
>> I wonder what would happen if DfT/TOCs put more pressure on ASLEF - e.g.
>> saying that for each future strike day, drivers' annual pay will be
>> reduced by, say £1000 per year? (To help compensate for lost revenue. Of
>> course that might mean some changes to the law, but there are probably
>> enough Tories to force such a change through Parliament.)
>>
> Is that really the sort of society you want to live in?

I was just speculating, but you can be fairly sure that there are those
on the "far right" who are possibly thinking about even worse actions.

On 03/12/2023 11:23, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <ukhluj$2qqot$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:19 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just
>>>>>>>>>> settled
>>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a
>>>>>>>> sarcastic
>>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was
>>>>>>>> settled in the
>>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was
>>>>>>> settled in
>>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>
>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you
>>>>> wish to
>>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking
>>>>> very
>>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>>
>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>
>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon that his
>>>>>> opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>
>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>> difference.
>>>>
>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of
>>>>> them
>>>>> are RMT members.
>>>>
>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>
>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>>
>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>
>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>
>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>
> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
> running.
>
> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>

All of the mentioned "TOCs" retain "guards".

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 03/12/2023 12:01, Ken wrote:
>> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 14:54:38 +0000, Bevan Price
>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 01/12/2023 13:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 01/12/2023 07:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ASLEF continue in their campaign to convince people to explore other
>>>>>> transport options than rail.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have a reference to assert your claims?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The RMT dispute is not 'settled' as such; the current industrial action is
>>>> called off as a pay deal for *2022* has been agreed; 2023's pay deal
>>>> negotiations and potential T&C changes begin in early 2024 at TOC level.
>>>>
>>>> ASLEF haven't been offered the same agreement as the RMT has; if that were
>>>> offered I feel confident that the forthcoming action would be postponed
>>>> while it was put to a vote [1].
>>>>
>>>> [1] ASLEF's rules (agreed and voted on by the members) state that a pay
>>>> deal cannot be put to the membership if the recommendation from the
>>>> Executive Committee is that members should reject it; that's why none of
>>>> the previous offers have been put to ballot.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what would happen if DfT/TOCs put more pressure on ASLEF - e.g.
>>> saying that for each future strike day, drivers' annual pay will be
>>> reduced by, say £1000 per year? (To help compensate for lost revenue. Of
>>> course that might mean some changes to the law, but there are probably
>>> enough Tories to force such a change through Parliament.)
>>>
>> Is that really the sort of society you want to live in?
>
> I was just speculating, but you can be fairly sure that there are those
> on the "far right" who are possibly thinking about even worse actions.

The normal right-wing proposal is driverless trains.

In principle, driverless trains are much simpler to implement than
driverless road vehicles, and quite a few metro lines are already
driverless. So, politicians like BoJo don't want to pay the existing
drivers less; they want to eliminate most of those jobs altogether. Indeed,
that day will probably come, sooner or later, but they'd like to accelerate
the process.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:

>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that can be
>> operated only by the driver. …
>
> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all…

Lines != stations. I don’t think I need to point out the implications.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 03/12/2023 12:01, Ken wrote:
>>> On Sat, 2 Dec 2023 14:54:38 +0000, Bevan Price
>>> <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 01/12/2023 13:13, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 01/12/2023 07:16, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ASLEF continue in their campaign to convince people to explore other
>>>>>>> transport options than rail.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have a reference to assert your claims?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The RMT dispute is not 'settled' as such; the current industrial action is
>>>>> called off as a pay deal for *2022* has been agreed; 2023's pay deal
>>>>> negotiations and potential T&C changes begin in early 2024 at TOC level.
>>>>>
>>>>> ASLEF haven't been offered the same agreement as the RMT has; if that were
>>>>> offered I feel confident that the forthcoming action would be postponed
>>>>> while it was put to a vote [1].
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] ASLEF's rules (agreed and voted on by the members) state that a pay
>>>>> deal cannot be put to the membership if the recommendation from the
>>>>> Executive Committee is that members should reject it; that's why none of
>>>>> the previous offers have been put to ballot.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I wonder what would happen if DfT/TOCs put more pressure on ASLEF - e.g.
>>>> saying that for each future strike day, drivers' annual pay will be
>>>> reduced by, say £1000 per year? (To help compensate for lost revenue. Of
>>>> course that might mean some changes to the law, but there are probably
>>>> enough Tories to force such a change through Parliament.)
>>>>
>>> Is that really the sort of society you want to live in?
>>
>> I was just speculating, but you can be fairly sure that there are those
>> on the "far right" who are possibly thinking about even worse actions.
>
> The normal right-wing proposal is driverless trains.
>
> In principle, driverless trains are much simpler to implement than
> driverless road vehicles, and quite a few metro lines are already
> driverless. So, politicians like BoJo don't want to pay the existing
> drivers less; they want to eliminate most of those jobs altogether. Indeed,
> that day will probably come, sooner or later, but they'd like to accelerate
> the process.

Once again one longs for someone to reexcavate Driver Ancromarty’s
description of what it takes to driving a well known route.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On 4/12/23 03:40, Recliner wrote:
In principle, driverless trains are much simpler to implement than
> driverless road vehicles, and quite a few metro lines are already
> driverless. So, politicians like BoJo don't want to pay the existing
> drivers less; they want to eliminate most of those jobs altogether. Indeed,
> that day will probably come, sooner or later, but they'd like to accelerate
> the process.
>

And the higher the wages of the drivers, the faster this will happen as
the business case looks better.
Drivers are getting more expensive, the technology to replace them is
getting cheaper.

It's just a matter of time when the two graphs cross over.

My local rail unions waged a successful campaign against driver-only
operation over the last couple of years - but I think their win has only
bought forward the point where the cost of automation crosses the cost
of crew. If they had accepted DOO, the justification for replacing one
skilled and trained crew instead of two skilled and trained crew could
have delayed the automation push by years. Now the business case for
automation has the cost of 2 crew to offset the cost not one.
I guess that's has bought forward the cost justifications for automation
10-15 years.
(We already have a 'digital railway' program in flight, using ETCS to do
level 2 ATP - and that will provide a baseline for more automation)

Id day they have one the battle but lost the war.

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ukhcsg$2peej$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:05:36 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <ukg999$2gvt7$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:58:01 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Coffee <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 19:19, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ukfmmi$2e6sa$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:40:50 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <ukfi7h$2dgni$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:24:33 on Sat, 2 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On 02/12/2023 15:11, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dec 2023,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just settled  their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcastic  comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in the  Spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was settled in  the spring.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you wish to provide a bumptious commentary on the rail
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> industry without looking very silly, you do need to make some
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has  confirmed this afternoon
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that his opinion is nothing new has just been  agreed.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one this week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as very few of them are RMT members.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who
>>>>>>>>>>>>> might have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I've seen increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And they all depend on signal staff.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the signal staff settled long ago. But back to Roland’s
>>>>>>>>>> point - the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs are needed (see guards and
>>>>>>>>>> dispatch staff amongst many others), they aren’t employed just
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The majority of stations round here are unmanned, so no dispatch staff
>>>>>>>>> to go on strike. What I don't know is if the one station which *is*
>>>>>>>>> manned is a poison pill for all the others.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes but the terminus station is likely to need staff as will a few
>>>>>>>> intermediate larger stations. There aren’t many railway lines
>>>>>>>> that can be operated solely by a driver.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't think I saw any platform dispatchers at Stansted Airport.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There'll be risk assessments for every relevant train type (and length)
>>>>>> on every platform on every railway station. For instance IETs must
>>>>>> have a dispatcher at Carmarthen and some were cancelled recently
>>>>>> because none were available.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm sure there will be such risk assessments, but I'm challenging the
>>>>> sweeping statement made about specifically terminus stations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kings Lynn for example is served by 1tph OPO service, and I wouldn't
>>>>> expect them to employ a dispatcher. Similarly I think the terminus
>>>>> platforms at Cambrridge (for the trains to Norwich) are self-dispatched
>>>>> by the driver/guard, even if some of the through platforms [mainly
>>>>> trains to/from London] do have dispatchers.
>>>>
>>>> The point is that there’s very few, if any, railway lines that can be
>>>> operated only by the driver. There’s more to RMT TOC jobs than cleaning the
>>>> toilets, which appeared to be Roland’s original position. Larger stations
>>>> probably require staff to supervise evacuations/other emergencies. I
>>>> imagine this to be the case at Stansted.
>>>
>>> You overestimate the number of stations manned by anyone at all.
>>>
>>> Last time I was at Littleport I met a railway employee who'd driven all
>>> the way from Downham Market to assist one wheelchair passenger onto a
>>> London-bound train. In the grand scheme of things, it would have saved
>>> them a fortune to pay for a taxi to Ely, where they do normally have
>>> station staff.
>>
>> I don’t, but you can’t practically run a railway service if the more
>> important/larger stations on the route need to be staffed.
>
> Don't RMT members also maintain, prepare and check the trains before they
> can enter service? Don't they sell and check tickets, and supervise
> barrier lines? Don't they provide passenger assistance? Don't they unlock
> the doors and turn on the station lights?
>
>

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ukhluj$2qqot$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:40:19 on Sun, 3 Dec
>> 2023, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <3ooaN.13$XUo2.1@fx14.ams1>, at 17:06:07 on Fri, 1 Dec 2023,
>>>>> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <ukcqk6$1t8ro$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:29:26 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>> 2023, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <IPhaN.87461$OAC8.26087@fx09.ams1>, at 09:37:44 on Fri, 1 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Despite recent rumours to the contrary here, the RMT has just settled
>>>>>>>>>>> their ongoing dispute.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There were no such rumours here.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Don't be ridiculous, in the last couple of weeks you posted a sarcastic
>>>>>>>>> comment to the effect I'd not noticed the RMT dispute was settled in the
>>>>>>>>> Spring.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It was pointed out that the RMT dispute with Network Rail was settled in
>>>>>>>> the spring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That "small print" was omitted.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No it wasn't. You just didn't understand the difference. If you wish to
>>>>>> provide a bumptious commentary on the rail industry without looking very
>>>>>> silly, you do need to make some effort to understand it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet more lies.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed our laid-back friend has confirmed this afternoon that his
>>>>>>> opinion is nothing new has just been agreed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There has been an ongoing (until yesterday) RMT dispute with
>>>>>>>> most of the TOCs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, most of us understand that. There's just one refusenik.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You seem not to know the difference between the RDG and NR.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's preposterous to suggest any people here don't know that difference.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The RMT had different disputes with both and separate series of
>>>>>> strikes. The NR dispute was settled months ago, and the RDG one this
>>>>>> week. And, no, that won't stop the drivers' strikes as very few of them
>>>>>> are RMT members.
>>>>>
>>>>> What surprises me is how much disruption the RMT-who-work-for-TOCs
>>>>> caused, when I agree so few are train drivers (outside TfL anyway).
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need to cancel a train just because an RMT person who might
>>>>> have cleaned the toilet on board is on strike. And yes, I've seen
>>>>> increasing numbers of trains with toilets locked out etc, recently.
>>>>
>>>> Lots of services depend on a guard and platform dispatch staff.
>>>
>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow Suburban
>>> services, can't run without a guard (by various job titles but 'guard' is
>>> the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>
>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>
>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of those
>> running.
>>
>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes, such
>> as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>
>> But why do you need a guard *and* platform dispatch staff?
>
> Lots of stations have trains with guards and platform dispatch staff -
> especially the busy ones.
>
>

Particularly necessary if there are long trains, restricted sightlines
and/or more than one 'high risk' point on the platform eg entrances or
blind corners.

Anna Noyd-Dryver