In message <ukpc9n$m7gu$2@dont-email.me>, at 08:44:39 on Wed, 6 Dec
2023, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 05/12/2023 21:22, Roger Lynn wrote:
>> On 03/12/2023 15:05, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <uki0if$2sa3m$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:41:35 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>> 2023, Certes <Certes@example.org> remarked:
>>>> Perhaps the train also visits other, unstaffed stations where a guard
>>>> is needed, and this station is served by other, DOO trains which require
>>>> platform dispatch staff. Or it's just a long train on a bendy platform.
>>>
>>> A veritable confluence of edge cases! The thing about DOO trains is they
>>> are supposed to have CCTV along the train so a bendy platform doesn't
>>> matter. If anything it's a dispatcher who would have difficulty seeing
>>> the whole length of the train at once.

>> Do 165s and 168s have CCTV? (I don't know.)
>
>Not on the 165s, don't know about the 168s but I would assume not.

Does Chiltern have very many bendy platforms where you wouldn't be able
to see from one end of a 4-car DMU to another?
--
Roland Perry

In message <r5krmi9cdsfd940av3rmutrj1bq2tuuvua@4ax.com>, at 13:19:36 on
Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:06:38 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>
>>In message <jlfrmi5cve6ff4ko5rcf98r2706fco32kf@4ax.com>, at 11:58:12 on
>>Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 10:38:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <ukiakn$2tpd9$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:27 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>>>2023, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow
>>>>>>>Suburban services, can't run without a guard (by various job
>>>>>>>titles but 'guard' is the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>
>>>>>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of
>>>>>>those running.
>>>>
>>>>>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes,
>>>>>>such as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>>>>
>>>>>All of the mentioned "TOCs" retain "guards".
>>>>
>>>>On some services, and at the present rate, not for much longer.
>>>
>>>When did a UK service last go DOO?
>>
>>There's clearly a lot of discussion about it between TOCs and the
>>unions.
>
>The TOCs (ie, DfT) want it on some (commuter-type) routes, the unions
>don't. The unions go on strike to block it, and
>usually win.
>
>> I don't have a date for your specific enquiry, so that
>>relieves you of the responsibility to do enough research to quibble
>>about it.
>
>Why don't you just admit that you have no idea when it was?

I already said I don't recall any particular date. And note that you, Mr
Know-All, have not offered one either.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
> In message <r5krmi9cdsfd940av3rmutrj1bq2tuuvua@4ax.com>, at 13:19:36 on
> Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 13:06:38 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <jlfrmi5cve6ff4ko5rcf98r2706fco32kf@4ax.com>, at 11:58:12 on
>>> Mon, 4 Dec 2023, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On Mon, 4 Dec 2023 10:38:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ukiakn$2tpd9$2@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:27 on Sun, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2023, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Virtually all trains outside of the former NSE area, and Glasgow
>>>>>>>> Suburban services, can't run without a guard (by various job
>>>>>>>> titles but 'guard' is the Rule Book definition) on board, I think?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Are there any other DOO areas?
>>>
>>>>>>> Well, the trains you mention above are probably only a third of
>>>>>>> those running.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> However, several other areas show up in searches of DOO disputes,
>>>>>>> such as Northern, Merseyrail and West Midlands Trains.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All of the mentioned "TOCs" retain "guards".
>>>>>
>>>>> On some services, and at the present rate, not for much longer.
>>>>
>>>> When did a UK service last go DOO?
>>>
>>> There's clearly a lot of discussion about it between TOCs and the
>>> unions.
>>
>> The TOCs (ie, DfT) want it on some (commuter-type) routes, the unions
>> don't. The unions go on strike to block it, and
>> usually win.
>>
>>> I don't have a date for your specific enquiry, so that
>>> relieves you of the responsibility to do enough research to quibble
>>> about it.
>>
>> Why don't you just admit that you have no idea when it was?
>
> I already said I don't recall any particular date. And note that you, Mr
> Know-All, have not offered one either.

The Elizabeth Line is DOO, and I'm not sure if the existing routes that TfL
Rail took over were already entirely DOO. I think they were, but could be
wrong. If so, that would probably be the most recent DOO introduction.

Other than that, the most recent switch to DOO that I can think of was a
decade ago, by an operator that was mainly DOO already. Since then, there
have been a number of DCO introductions, but I don't think any of these
have moved to routine DOO.

The Merseyrail 777s were partly cost-justified on the basis of being DOO,
but the unions have forced them to be DCO. Similarly, Southern won the long
battle to remove guards from some trains, but they were replaced by OBSs.