On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>> That's true today, however even fewer have a gas station
>> at their home either. Rather a wash, don't you think?
>
> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
> get a full charge in five minutes.

Speak the correct language. The newspeak would be, achieve a 85% charge
in under an hour. Like torrents, the last %15 can take an long time.
Have a cup of coffee? at somewhere of minimal interest!. How
attractive! `Josephines' in Kilkenny, where they hardly speak English?
It closed down for lack of business.

>
>>
>> Charge times are becoming more competitive with gas tank
>> fill times.
>>
>>> once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Or the support structures will be built out to prevent
>> stress - a significant part of the recently passed
>> Infrastructure Investment act.
>>
>> It's pretty clear that the car manufacturers are all
>> on board (simplifies the process of building a vehicle,
>> that's for sure).

They are too busy laughing.

>>
>
>
>

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>
>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>
>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>
>
> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
> will be needed.
>
Not economic. The world is full of unrecycled lithium Batteries. I wish
there was a way of finding how long your recharge will last in your old
battery, and be careful not to get that battery wet. Bad things happen
when the new batteries get wet.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 13:33:55 +0100
Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:40:12 +0100
> > "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
> >> won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands,
> >> but because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.
> >
> > If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on home
> > made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily available
> > online, try not to burn down the house.
>
> In principle yes (I mean, the very first Diesel engine ran on peanut oil),
> but there are traps. Biodiesel usually isn't straight up vegetable oil,

It never is.

> but usually chemically processed vegetable oils (e.g. rapeseed methyl
> ester, aka RME) and that stuff can be decidedly unfriendly to the

That's the stuff.

> fuel system and the engine (e.g. plastics and metals - with pure RME
> some plastic have shown noticeable degradation and some metals have

Yes some engines need seals replacing - last time I looked into it
Viton seal kits were available for a wide range of engines.

> So will running 100% biodiesel in a diesel engine not rated for kill
> the engine? Most likely not, but you should expect to pay a lot more
> attention to regular servicing and maintenance to spot (and fix) whatever
> issues (e.g. plastic parts of the fuel system degrading) crop up.

Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
> get a full charge in five minutes.

Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
is parked ?

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

To: Peter Flass
-=> Peter Flass wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

PF> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
PF> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure
PF> will start showing signs of stress.

I read something about the government paying Tesla to open up the
Supercharger network to other cars. Tesla drivers may not like queueing
up behind a Nissan Leaf to charge.

When I had my kitchen remodeled, we tore out the floor, and I noticed I
had a straight path under the floor from my circuit breaker to the
outside wall where my carport is. I had them pull a 220-capable wire and
leave it there, so if I do go electric, most of the legwork is done.

I was looking at the 2023 Prius to replace my 2014 plug-in Prius, but
the $10K dealer markup plus $2K dealer-installed improvements (usually
undercoating) puts the cost of the car in the price of a EV.

.... It's a bold strategy, Cotton, let's see if it plays out for 'em...
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
-=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-

AAS> Range is not a biggie! Pretty much every EV on the market has
AAS> more range than anyone sane would drive in a day and way more than
AAS> anyone should drive without a good break.

Things have improved. I remember in 2014 working for a tech company in
Silicon Valley, and Nissan Leaf drivers needed to charge in order to
get home. I'd find a passive agressive post-it note on my car if I was
in a meeting and left my car plugged in 15 minutes after it had
charged.

.... "He who is without oil, shall cast the first rod."-Compressions 8.7:1.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.

EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.

Most people won't own an EV anywhere near battery end of life, just
as most people don't own an IC car anywhere near engine end of life. It'll
only be those who buy at the bottom of the second hand market (there are
some pretty cheap early Leafs around with degraded batteries) and those who
buy and keep until dead. The heavily driven ten year old Leafs are still
above 505 of the original capacity (or so the ads claim) which makes them
only suitable for short distance runarounds. Modern EVs with their
much bigger batteries should be a lot more useful at ten years old.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 08:20:00 -0800
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-z2k-this> wrote:

> To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
> -=> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote to alt.folklore.computers <=-
>
> AAS> Range is not a biggie! Pretty much every EV on the market
> AAS> has more range than anyone sane would drive in a day and way more
> AAS> than anyone should drive without a good break.
>
> Things have improved.

A great deal.

> I remember in 2014 working for a tech company in
> Silicon Valley, and Nissan Leaf drivers needed to charge in order to
> get home.

Sure the first generation Leafs had 24kWh batteries and could
barely cover 100km on a charge. Most of the current crop of EVs are at least
in the 50-65kWh range as well as being more efficient than the early Leaf.
Current Leafs are either 40kWh (270km) or 62kWh (385km), many competitors
do a little better on similar size batteries and of course some cars have
much bigger batteries like the electric Ford F150 with a choice of 98 or
130kh.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.

Well, this _is_ a group whose charter is the fun of running
an obsolete computer...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>
> EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
> battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
> worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
> battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
> battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.

Auto manufacturers always did have planned obsolescence mastered.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

To: Ahem A Rivet's Shot
Re: Re: After the storm, hopefully
By: Ahem A Rivet's Shot to alt.folklore.computers on Sat Feb 18 2023 04:31 pm

AA> only be those who buy at the bottom of the second hand market (there are
AA> some pretty cheap early Leafs around with degraded batteries) and those who
AA> buy and keep until dead. The heavily driven ten year old Leafs are still
AA> above 505 of the original capacity (or so the ads claim) which makes them
AA> only suitable for short distance runarounds. Modern EVs with their

My company has 2 2014 Leafs (leaves?), if memory serves they were listed at 95 miles per charge. They get around 29 now.
--- Synchronet 3.20a-Win32 NewsLink 1.113
* realitycheckBBS - Aptos, CA - telnet://realitycheckbbs.org

On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 10:46:38 -0800
"Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-6g3-this> wrote:

> My company has 2 2014 Leafs (leaves?), if memory serves they were listed
> at 95 miles per charge. They get around 29 now.

That sounds about right - listed at 95 but realistically they did
about 60 and now down to 50% capacity.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:

> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>
> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
> is parked ?

It's midnight. I get a call that

+ my grandson is critically ill

+ my business is on fire

+ a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home

and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.

I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
in and I'm gone.

Can't do that with a battery.

As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
"fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
(Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
widespread outage of long duration may occur at any time due to a
major infrastruture failure. I have that 10 gal. for a buffer. The
general store where I get my gas also has a gen set to power their
pumps, again as a short term buffer but but better than no charge for
an EV.

--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that
>
> + my grandson is critically ill
>
> + my business is on fire
>
> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>
> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.

See, I don't do that. Part of the Saturday weekly shopping trip is
to completely fill up the tank (with diesel) after I got the shopping
done. Even if it's just 10 liters or so. And a full tank is around
700+ km range with that car (unless I hit the mountains, obviously).

>
> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
> in and I'm gone.
>
> Can't do that with a battery.
>
> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a

Fortunately, the local utilities are very good at preventive maintenance
and ensuring that Things Simply Work As They Are Supposed To Do.
It helps to live in a small rich country, I admit.

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 13:33:55 +0100
> Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 22:40:12 +0100
>> > "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> >> You can keep using your ICE (in Europe) for years. Till 2050. Then you
>> >> won't be able, not because they'll pry it from your cold dead hands,
>> >> but because you will not be able to buy petrol or diesel.
>> >
>> > If it's a diesel then it should be easy enough to run it on home
>> > made biodiesel - making instructions and even kits are easily available
>> > online, try not to burn down the house.
>>
>> In principle yes (I mean, the very first Diesel engine ran on peanut oil),
>> but there are traps. Biodiesel usually isn't straight up vegetable oil,
>
> It never is.

Before RME became common, quite a few people running cars with older
(and more robust) Diesel engines switched to feeding them (carefully
filtered) used cooking oil. With the side effect that you tended to
smell a greasy spoon fastfood joint in the middle of nowhere if you
found yourself driving behind them ;-)

>> but usually chemically processed vegetable oils (e.g. rapeseed methyl
>> ester, aka RME) and that stuff can be decidedly unfriendly to the
>
> That's the stuff.

It's also apparently a really good solvent, which is typically not a
desired property in an engine fuel ;-)

>> fuel system and the engine (e.g. plastics and metals - with pure RME
>> some plastic have shown noticeable degradation and some metals have
>
> Yes some engines need seals replacing - last time I looked into it
> Viton seal kits were available for a wide range of engines.

Yup, replace the (plastic/rubber) parts that RME tends to attack and
you should be good.

>> So will running 100% biodiesel in a diesel engine not rated for kill
>> the engine? Most likely not, but you should expect to pay a lot more
>> attention to regular servicing and maintenance to spot (and fix) whatever
>> issues (e.g. plastic parts of the fuel system degrading) crop up.
>
> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.

AFAIK ethanol also does a decent job as an anti-knock agent, without
poisoning your fellow man with lead. Again, parts of the fuel system
(IIRC mostly seals) might need replacement for that.

Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:

> On 2023-02-18, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>> Yep - all part of the fun of running an obsolete vehicle. Not too
>> dissimilar to the problem of five star petrol going away when tetraethyl
>> lead did - some cars needed it to avoid pinking.
>
> Well, this _is_ a group whose charter is the fun of running
> an obsolete computer...

I'm pretty sure I could remember how to power up, load and run jobs
on an IBM 1401 but it would only be fun once or twice.
Writing some code, nope, give me python.
Autocoder was cool at the time, but I don't want to go back.

--
Dan Espen

Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> writes:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>
>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>> is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that
>
> + my grandson is critically ill
>
> + my business is on fire
>
> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>
> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
> in and I'm gone.
>
> Can't do that with a battery.

With such a perilous life, I hope you keep your cell phone in your
pocket and you are good at pressing the Uber button.

I'll probably replace my current car with an electric. The way I use a
car I probably don't need a 220 line in the garage.
The car would be on charge 20 hours a day on average.

--
Dan Espen

On 18 Feb 2023 17:56:28 -0400
Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:

>
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>
> > On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner
> >> and get a full charge in five minutes.
> >
> > Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
> > is parked ?
>
> It's midnight. I get a call that

You car has been charging for several hours, was almost certainly
nowhere near fully discharged when you park (unless you drive hundreds of
kilometres every day) and is now fully charged or nearly so. You did choose
a car with range suitable to your needs I presume.

But in 45 years of adult life I have *never* had such a call.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-18, Alexander Schreiber <als@usenet.thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> wrote:
>>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>>
>>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 06:19:51 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>>>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>>>
>>> Why would you want to do that if you have a charger where the car
>>> is parked ?
>>
>> It's midnight. I get a call that
>>
>> + my grandson is critically ill
>>
>> + my business is on fire
>>
>> + a landslide/forest fire/toxic spill threatens my home
>>
>> and I need to go far away *now*. I've been meaning to fill the tank at
>> the pumps 5 miles away but have put it off and I'm running on fumes.
>
> See, I don't do that. Part of the Saturday weekly shopping trip is
> to completely fill up the tank (with diesel) after I got the shopping
> done. Even if it's just 10 liters or so. And a full tank is around
> 700+ km range with that car (unless I hit the mountains, obviously).
>
>>
>> I always have 10 gal. of preservative-treated gas stowed. I dump it
>> in and I'm gone.
>>
>> Can't do that with a battery.
>>
>> As well, much of the power distribution industry has been converted to
>> "fix it when it breaks" rather that "maintain to a high standard".
>> (Known perps: Nova Scotia Power, California's PG&E) As a result, a
>
> Fortunately, the local utilities are very good at preventive maintenance
> and ensuring that Things Simply Work As They Are Supposed To Do.
> It helps to live in a small rich country, I admit.
>
> Kind regards,
> Alex.

Sugar cane alcohol seems to work better, I am told that a foreighner in
Brasil constantly thinks that they smell burned candy, until they get
used to it.

Only years ago, people were told that adding lead to petrol was a great
idea

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> writes:
>On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>
>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>
>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>> start showing signs of stress.
>
>Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>
>Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.

Tesla's batteries have a projected (and warranted) lifespan of 300,000 to 500,000
miles. That's between 22 and 35 years. How many cars last that long today?

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>
>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>
>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>
>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>
>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>
>
>Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
>after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
>‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
>has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
>will be needed.

Tesla batteries should last 22 to 30 years (minimum of 300,000 miles);
with a 10 to 15% range reduction near the end. That's longer than most
IC cars will last (and many will require a new engine by then if they
were still on the road).

On 2023-02-19, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>>
>>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>>
>>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>>
>>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>>
>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>>
>>
>>Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
>>after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
>>‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
>>has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
>>will be needed.
>
> Tesla batteries should last 22 to 30 years (minimum of 300,000 miles);
> with a 10 to 15% range reduction near the end. That's longer than most
> IC cars will last (and many will require a new engine by then if they
> were still on the road).

I am told that many Honda diesels are overrunning their registers. That
is over a million miles. Salesmen around here (.ie) are claiming 25
years for the time that solar panels last. In my experience, looking at
them when driving along the road, 15 is stretching it. It is also very
important to not let the batteries get wet. There was some cartoons
years ago about not letting pets get wet, it caused them to turn
violent. EV batteries are much the same.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On Sun, 19 Feb 2023 15:39:37 GMT
scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote:

> Tesla's batteries have a projected (and warranted) lifespan of 300,000 to
> 500,000 miles. That's between 22 and 35 years. How many cars last that

Tesla must be doing something very right with their
charge/discharge cycles and temperature control to only drop 15% in that
time.

> long today?

Very few, all sorts of things are reaching EOL in a car by then and
it's a dead cert that something is going to happen that costs more than the
value of the car to fix - often a head gasket or clutch.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> That's true today, however even fewer have a gas station
>>> at their home either. Rather a wash, don't you think?
>>
>> It will be when I can pull into a charging station around the corner and
>> get a full charge in five minutes.
>
> Speak the correct language. The newspeak would be, achieve a 85% charge
> in under an hour. Like torrents, the last %15 can take an long time.
> Have a cup of coffee? at somewhere of minimal interest!. How
> attractive! `Josephines' in Kilkenny, where they hardly speak English?
> It closed down for lack of business.

I’d accept 85% in five minutes.

>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>> Charge times are becoming more competitive with gas tank
>>> fill times.
>>>
>>>> once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>>
>>> Or the support structures will be built out to prevent
>>> stress - a significant part of the recently passed
>>> Infrastructure Investment act.
>>>
>>> It's pretty clear that the car manufacturers are all
>>> on board (simplifies the process of building a vehicle,
>>> that's for sure).
>
> They are too busy laughing.
>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--
Pete

maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> On 2023-02-18, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-17, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2023 14:13:20 -0700
>>>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> (or make EVs an improvement on ICs, which is a very long shot).
>>>>>
>>>>> In many ways they already are a big improvement on ICEs. In fact
>>>>> apart from the range available with a full tank and being cheaper I can't
>>>>> think of a single advantage for IC based cars.
>>>>
>>>> Range is a biggie, also recharging time. Not everyone has access to a
>>>> charger at home. once EVs become more common support infrastructure will
>>>> start showing signs of stress.
>>>
>>> Although you can charge at home overnight without needing new hardware,
>>> all that extra load on the electrical grid will indeed cause problems.
>>> Here in B.C. we have lots of hydro power, but most new capacity is
>>> earmarked for LNG production or sales to California.
>>>
>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>>
>>
>> Yes. It really cuts into the value of a used car. Cars used to fall apart
>> after five years or so anyway, so it wouldn’t have been a problem in the
>> ‘50s, but my current Honda is coming up on 20 years, and apparently still
>> has some residual value. then, of course, battery recycling infrastructure
>> will be needed.
>>
> Not economic. The world is full of unrecycled lithium Batteries. I wish
> there was a way of finding how long your recharge will last in your old
> battery, and be careful not to get that battery wet. Bad things happen
> when the new batteries get wet.
>

It might be economic in the quantities they’re talking about. I could do
the math, if I weren’t so lazy. Say eventually 85% of all cars on the road
are EVs, and also say that batteries last 15 years ( I have no idea,
actually). This would tell you how many pounds of lithium would be recycled
annually.

--
Pete