Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>>> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-22, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>>>>> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:
>>>>>> On 2023-02-22 15:52, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>>>>> On 19/02/2023 21:22, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>>>> So you stop and have lunch for 25 minutes along the way. Various
>>>>> Tesla variants can reach 405 miles (Model S), as a google search
>>>>> will confirm.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, choosing a vehicle based upon a one-time might-happen seems
>>>>> counterintuitive - like someone is reaching for a reason to dislike
>>>>> battery-electric vehicles.
>>>>>
>>>> Damn right I am opposed to battery-electric vehicles. When I think of
>>>> all the unrenewable batteries that are going to have to dumped in the
>>>> years to come, and the useless remainders of those vehicles. The whole
>>>> plan to replace fossil fuels with renewables is fantasy, tosh.
>>>>
>>>> The only road forwards is heavy tax on fossil fuels to eke out what is
>>>> remaining in the ground. Won't go down well with Bill Gates, with his
>>>> four private jets, or that ilk
>>>
>>> Hydrogen is the only logical way to go. The problems with hydrogen are
>>> slowly being solved, but the people pushing plug-in EVs are going to be
>>> getting in the way of adoption.
>>
>> It degrades the container you store it in.
>
>This is an are where they’re making decent progress.

Are you sure about that? Can you point to some published work
on this? Airbus is spending large amounts of money researching
hydrogen as a replacement for JET-A. Storage capability is
correlated with the size of the H2 molecule, not to mention
where do you _get_ the hydrogen (solar electrolosis requires a whole
shitload of solar panels to replace any substantial fraction of
fossil fuels - and why not juststore and use the electricity directly then?)

Then there are the transportation issues and the energy require to
compress and cool the H2 into a form economically transported.

As a replacement for JET-A, it is a potentially viable, albeit more
expensive, solution. As a replacement for automobile fuel, I wouldn't
hold my breath.

https://www.h2bulletin.com/knowledge/hydrogen-colours-codes/

>I think they’re developing a system that stores the H2 in a crystal lattice
>of some sort that eliminates a lot of the problems.

Shades of cold fusion (hydrogen in a nickel metal lattice). Good luck
with that.

https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/hydrogen-storage
https://spectra.mhi.com/4-ways-of-storing-hydrogen-from-renewable-energy

It may be more viable to blend the H2 with CO2 removed from the atmosphere
into a synthetic hydrocarbon with characteristics similar to gasoline,
but again, the electricity used to generate the H2 and extract the CO2
could just be used directly. Given the advancements in battery tech
over the last decade, I have little doubt which approach will be vialbe
in the long run.

Your range anxiety is overblown.

Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> writes:
>Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>

>>
>> I think they’re developing a system that stores the H2 in a crystal lattice
>> of some sort that eliminates a lot of the problems. That’s what I mean
>> about not rushing to push everyone into some sort of half-assed battery
>> system that has problems of its own when a better system is on its
>> way.
>
>I can't see how you can squeeze a tank of H2 into another tank with a
>solid in it without needing more space.

Palladium can be used to store H2. However, Palladium is extremely
rare and currently costs around $50,000/kg at current demand.

At atomic scales, even a dense metal is spacious.

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>On 23/02/2023 11:05, maus wrote:
>> On 2023-02-23, Vir Campestris<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>> OK, so it's not 45 minutes, it's only 25 minutes.
>>>
>> It will be shorter in future, actually, when you think of plugging it
>> in, it is already recharged :):}
>
>The smallest Tesla battery is 50kWh.
>
>Assume I want a 1-minute recharge and that will require 50*60 = 3000kW.
>
>Equivalent to a thousand electric fires.
>
>What kind of plug will I need for that?

https://electrek.co/2021/11/01/tesla-launches-new-home-charger-that-works-j1772-all-electric-cars/

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>> Incidentally a friend of mine has recently gone from Cambs to Northern
>> Ireland in a petrol car. Local knowledge has told him he'll be unlikely
>> to get his Tesla charged over there.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>
>I have driven cross-country three of four times (I lost count). There is no
>way I’d want to take any of the current crop of EVs on a road trip. Often
>our “stops” consisted of filling the tank while wife and I took turns going
>to the bathroom, and maybe grab a fast-food sandwich and a candy bar. Total
>time - about 15 min. Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of
>those quick stops. How much time would an EV add? Make that three stops at
>1/2 hour or 45 min each. Adds an hour and a half to each day’s drive to
>make the same milage. i
>

So rent a car when you need to make such a trip. Or fly and rent an electric
car locally.

By far the vast majority of car owners don't make such trips regularly.

You'll still be able to buy gas for the rest of your life anyway, so you
can keep your car as long as someone will sell you some gas.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:47:50 +0000
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The smallest Tesla battery is 50kWh.
>
> Assume I want a 1-minute recharge and that will require 50*60 = 3000kW.

Charging slows down a lot for the last 20% unless you want to
destroy the battery, which is why everyone talks about time to 80%.

The fastest chargers on the market at the moment run at 480kW. I
read once that a megawatt is about the limit since nobody wants to go over
about 1000V (current high end cars apparently run at 800V) and anything over
1000A leads to a cable nobody will be able to lift. Your three megawatt
charger would have to avoid the need to lug cables - challenging when
charging ports are wherever the car manufacturer thought looked cute.

Still the 480kW that's available today will get you a ten minute
charge, a megawatt would get that down to five minutes. That's not too
different to pumping fuel in.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-23 16:58, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 13:47:50 +0000
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> The smallest Tesla battery is 50kWh.
>>
>> Assume I want a 1-minute recharge and that will require 50*60 = 3000kW.
>
> Charging slows down a lot for the last 20% unless you want to
> destroy the battery, which is why everyone talks about time to 80%.
>
> The fastest chargers on the market at the moment run at 480kW. I
> read once that a megawatt is about the limit since nobody wants to go over
> about 1000V (current high end cars apparently run at 800V) and anything over
> 1000A leads to a cable nobody will be able to lift. Your three megawatt
> charger would have to avoid the need to lug cables - challenging when
> charging ports are wherever the car manufacturer thought looked cute.
>
> Still the 480kW that's available today will get you a ten minute
> charge, a megawatt would get that down to five minutes. That's not too
> different to pumping fuel in.

The issue will then be the transmission lines to those fast charging
stations. Or the stations will have to keep a huge battery pack of their
own.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-02-23 15:45, Peter Flass wrote:
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 22/02/2023 14:52, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> Eventually, yes.
>>>>
>>>> We get away with not having quite enough fuel pumps, and queues at peak
>>>> times. The queues are only a few minutes. Say three cars' worth.
>>>>
>>>> Three cars' worth at 45 minutes each hurts.
>>>>
>>>> I've pointed out to my wife that an EV would be great for her. There's a
>>>> spare slot in the breaker box in the garage waiting for a charger, we
>>>> have private parking, and she never goes more than a few miles - the
>>>> longest day she's ever likely to do is under 150 miles.
>>>>
>>>> On the other hand my mother is 150 miles away, and her sister 400 miles
>>>> away, and there's no guarantee that we could get a charge at the end of
>>>> that journey. So we need a car with the ability to do a quick refill.
>>>> Which means dino juice.
>>>
>>> Are y'all incapable of a simple google search?
>>>
>>> The Model 3, today, charges to 80% in 25 minutes with
>>> the current high-speed chargers.
>>>
>>> As battery and charger technology improves, so will the charge
>>> time become shorter.
>>>
>>
>> OK, so it's not 45 minutes, it's only 25 minutes.
>>
>> I don't mind a 25 minute break on the occasional long journey that I do.
>>
>> I do object a long queue for the charger.
>>
>> Three cars worth at 25 minutes is better than three at 45, but it still
>> hurts.
>>
>> Incidentally a friend of mine has recently gone from Cambs to Northern
>> Ireland in a petrol car. Local knowledge has told him he'll be unlikely
>> to get his Tesla charged over there.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>
> I have driven cross-country three of four times (I lost count). There is no
> way I’d want to take any of the current crop of EVs on a road trip. Often
> our “stops” consisted of filling the tank while wife and I took turns going
> to the bathroom, and maybe grab a fast-food sandwich and a candy bar. Total
> time - about 15 min. Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of
> those quick stops. How much time would an EV add? Make that three stops at
> 1/2 hour or 45 min each. Adds an hour and a half to each day’s drive to
> make the same milage. i

I always stop about half an hour for every two or three hour driving.

>

<https://www.team-bhp.com/news/volvo-electric-truck-travels-3000-km-longest-electric-cv>

«*The trip helped the company gain important knowledge on the use of
e-trucks for long-distance journeys.*

Volvo's 40-tonne FH electric semi-trailer truck recently completed a
3000 km round trip between Zurich (Switzerland) and Valencia (Spain),
making it the longest distance travelled by a commercial electric truck
to date.

The trip was made by the Swiss logistics company, Krummen Kerzers, and
the truck was driven by Balint Schnell, carrying 20 tonnes of groceries.
It was the first time Schnell was driving an electric truck, requiring
him to not only familiarise himself with the semi but also study the
route and plan ahead. Following the EU driving & rest times, Schnell
stopped 20 times during the entire trip while also planning the route in
a way that the charging times coincided with these breaks.

The entire round-trip is said to have taken him a week to complete,
which in a conventional diesel truck would have taken 4 days. The FH
electric is said to have a range of up to 300 km on a single charge.
Schnell stated that the route isn't designed for charging electric
semis, making him use regular EV stations. However, if the EV station
was used by other vehicles, the charging speeds would reduce drastically.

Peter Krummen, Co-Managing Director of Krummen Kerzers, stated that the
trip helped the company gain important knowledge on the use of e-trucks
for long-distance journeys. He also added that the entire trip helped
save 3 tons of CO2 emissions.»
--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 2023-02-19 19:10, Peter Flass wrote:
> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 18 Feb 2023 03:02:10 GMT
>> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> Another factor that isn't yet fully appreciated is battery life.
>>> EVs haven't been around long enough for a significant number of
>>> batteries to wear out, so we have yet to find out exactly what
>>> is involved in amortizing a $25,000 replacement battery.
>>
>> EVs have been around long enough for us to know that replacing the
>> battery is not going to happen - it's even less sensible than replacing a
>> worn out IC engine and very few do that these days. An EV is essentially a
>> battery on wheels, almost all of the value is in the battery. When the
>> battery won't hold a useful charge the car is dead.
>
> I thought they were planning a system where the dealer could just pull out
> a rack of batteries and slide in a new one?

For buses or delivery vans, maybe.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 21:23:15 +0100
"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> The issue will then be the transmission lines to those fast charging
> stations. Or the stations will have to keep a huge battery pack of their
> own.

Yep they'll need power like a large factory. Personally I expect
that when my car is an EV it will get almost all its charging done at home
and I'll only use public charge points very rarely.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops

I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700 miles
in a day.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops
>
> I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700 miles
> in a day.

Been there, done that. It's doable, but tiring - especially solo.
Best done when you're in your 20s.

Last summer we drove from Vancouver, B.C. to Moab, Utah,
a distance of about 1200 miles. We did it in two days,
but there were three of us spelling each other off,
and we found a motel at the halfway point. Even then,
we thought we'd take three days for the return trip,
although once on the road we changed our minds,
pushed on through, and got home in two days.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Microsoft is a dictatorship.
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | Apple is a cult.
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | Linux is anarchy.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | Pick your poison.

On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 23:44:11 GMT
Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops
> >
> > I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700
> > miles in a day.
>
> Been there, done that. It's doable, but tiring - especially solo.
> Best done when you're in your 20s.
>
> Last summer we drove from Vancouver, B.C. to Moab, Utah,
> a distance of about 1200 miles. We did it in two days,

If I have to go that kind of distance I'll fly or if it's across
mainland Europe I might take a train. Driving it would not enter
consideration.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops
>
> I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700 miles
> in a day.
>

Asides from anything else, In Ireland, you would be getting very wet.
Consider deliveries, and the return journies.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On 23/02/2023 15:41, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Are you sure about that? Can you point to some published work
> on this? Airbus is spending large amounts of money researching
> hydrogen as a replacement for JET-A. Storage capability is
> correlated with the size of the H2 molecule, not to mention
> where do you_get_ the hydrogen (solar electrolosis requires a whole
> shitload of solar panels to replace any substantial fraction of
> fossil fuels - and why not juststore and use the electricity directly then?)

<snip>

"why not juststore and use the electricity directly then?"

The main current "green" power systems are solar (doesn't work at night)
wind (only works when it's windy, and sometimes there are windless
patches hundreds of miles across) and hydro (we've used all the good
sites already). None of these will provide the power we want at the
times we want it.

If you have a system that will store electricity at grid scales we're
all ears. The world really will beat a path to your door.

Storing hydrogen is one of the possible methods, but as we've discussed
it has all sorts of problems.

Andy

On 23/02/2023 15:51, Scott Lurndal wrote:
> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 23/02/2023 11:05, maus wrote:
>>> On 2023-02-23, Vir Campestris<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> OK, so it's not 45 minutes, it's only 25 minutes.
>>>>
>>> It will be shorter in future, actually, when you think of plugging it
>>> in, it is already recharged :):}
>>
>> The smallest Tesla battery is 50kWh.
>>
>> Assume I want a 1-minute recharge and that will require 50*60 = 3000kW.
>>
>> Equivalent to a thousand electric fires.
>>
>> What kind of plug will I need for that?
>
> https://electrek.co/2021/11/01/tesla-launches-new-home-charger-that-works-j1772-all-electric-cars/
>
Try again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772

says "can deliver up to 19.2 kW"

Not 3000kW.

It also says there's an add on that takes it up to 350kW. A long way
from a 1 minute charge, even if the batteries could take it.

This implies we will need a lot more charging stations on big service
areas compared to the number of fuel pumps - you don't just need enough
so the queue doesn't get long, which is where we are on pumps, you need
enough so there's almost never a queue.

A guaranteed 25 minute charge on a long trip would be OK, time for a
bite to eat. Not great, but OK.

A 25 minute charge time with a queue of three before you get to the
charge station would not be acceptable.

Andy

On 24 Feb 2023 08:13:41 GMT
maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops
> >
> > I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700
> > miles in a day.
> >
>
>
> Asides from anything else, In Ireland, you would be getting very wet.

Nah, a trip from here up the west coast to Donegal or so then
across to Belfast, down to Dublin and on to Wexford, across the bottom to
Cork and back up to Kerry (taking in Dingle of course) would be way more
than 700 miles.

Doing it in a day would be positively heroic.

> Consider deliveries, and the return journies

I see all the van makers have electric versions with ranges in the
3-400km region - they have smaller batteries than some of the mid-range
cars this year - they seem to be exploring the load/range trade off.

Long range is definitely where IC vehicles win, but unless you need
it the EV wins in every other respect apart from price!

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2023 08:13:41 GMT
> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
>> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >
> cars this year - they seem to be exploring the load/range trade off.
>
> Long range is definitely where IC vehicles win, but unless you need
> it the EV wins in every other respect apart from price!
>

I see the post office, which here is turning into a 4day service, has
changed its vehicles. A big thing in the whole problem is tax. I think
that if EV gets popular, the plugs will have to be different than
ordinary household plugs to allow electricy to be taxed for vehicles
like petrol and deisel presently is. Otherwise that tax will have to be
raised elsewhere.

Yes, I agree, there are problems to be overcome under both systems (EV
or direct fuel), but saying `It will be all right on the night' will not
solve it.

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

On 24 Feb 2023 10:40:07 GMT
maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:

> On 2023-02-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 24 Feb 2023 08:13:41 GMT
> > maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> >> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
> >> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >
> > cars this year - they seem to be exploring the load/range trade off.
> >
> > Long range is definitely where IC vehicles win, but unless you need
> > it the EV wins in every other respect apart from price!
> >
>
> I see the post office, which here is turning into a 4day service, has
> changed its vehicles. A big thing in the whole problem is tax. I think
> that if EV gets popular, the plugs will have to be different than
> ordinary household plugs to allow electricy to be taxed for vehicles
> like petrol and deisel presently is. Otherwise that tax will have to be
> raised elsewhere.
>

Tax Guinness! Ah, that's already been thought of.

> Yes, I agree, there are problems to be overcome under both systems (EV
> or direct fuel), but saying `It will be all right on the night' will not
> solve it.
>
>
> --
> greymausg@mail.com
> where is our money gone, Dude?
>

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 10:02:08 +0000
Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> If you have a system that will store electricity at grid scales we're
> all ears. The world really will beat a path to your door.

I don't, but:

There are several companies supplying lithium batteries at grid
scale for short term storage (and companies making a fortune filling them
with cheap electricity and selling it later at peak prices). While Tesla
got a lot of media coverage putting the first one in nobody bothered to
notice when they became a commodity item used by grid planners.

There are at least two companies supplying flow batteries at grid
scale, one supplying a vanadium based battery with 25 year electrodes the
other a ferric chloride based battery whose electrodes apparently do not
degrade. As far as I can tell they're both shipping batteries as fast as
they can build them (of course both have patents on their stable
electrodes). Both ship 'small' systems as a bunch of 40' containers and
talk in terms of gigawatt hours per acre for large installations.

There are a bunch of startups (it looks a bit like 1978 in the
micro business) going for the domestic scale flow battery market. I'll be
keeping a very close eye on these.

The current flow batteries will do the job if we build enough of
them (100K million litre tanks and a *lot* of electrodes to power the
world for a week or so) and there's plenty of raw materials for the
electrolytes (especially the ferric chloride one).

Something better would be nice, but good enough is available today
commercially. Building enough to ditch fossil fuels will take time and
money but it is technically possible and appears to be financially feasible
too judging by the way the battery makers are selling all they can make.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 23:44:11 GMT
> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops
>>>
>>> I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700
>>> miles in a day.
>>
>> Been there, done that. It's doable, but tiring - especially solo.
>> Best done when you're in your 20s.
>>
>> Last summer we drove from Vancouver, B.C. to Moab, Utah,
>> a distance of about 1200 miles. We did it in two days,
>
> If I have to go that kind of distance I'll fly or if it's across
> mainland Europe I might take a train. Driving it would not enter
> consideration.
>

It’f fun to drive, and you get to see a lot more of the country than you do
from a plane.

--
Pete

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2023 08:13:41 GMT
> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
>>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Also did about 700 miles per day with one or two of those quick stops
>>>
>>> I can't think of anything that would persuade me to drive 700
>>> miles in a day.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Asides from anything else, In Ireland, you would be getting very wet.
>
> Nah, a trip from here up the west coast to Donegal or so then
> across to Belfast, down to Dublin and on to Wexford, across the bottom to
> Cork and back up to Kerry (taking in Dingle of course) would be way more
> than 700 miles.
>
> Doing it in a day would be positively heroic.

I’m trying to picture the roads there, and I doubt you have too many
superhighways (maybe “motorways” there?) If so, I agree with you. If you
can clock 75-80 mph regularly, it’s only a bother. Then , on back roads,
700 miles is often 800 or 900, with lots of traffic lights ( and flocks of
sheep?)
>
>> Consider deliveries, and the return journies
>
> I see all the van makers have electric versions with ranges in the
> 3-400km region - they have smaller batteries than some of the mid-range
> cars this year - they seem to be exploring the load/range trade off.
>
> Long range is definitely where IC vehicles win, but unless you need
> it the EV wins in every other respect apart from price!
>

--
Pete

On 2023-02-24 11:12, Vir Campestris wrote:
> On 23/02/2023 15:51, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 23/02/2023 11:05, maus wrote:
>>>> On 2023-02-23, Vir Campestris<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid>  wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> OK, so it's not 45 minutes, it's only 25 minutes.
>>>>>
>>>> It will be shorter in future, actually, when you think of plugging it
>>>> in, it is already recharged :):}
>>>
>>> The smallest Tesla battery is 50kWh.
>>>
>>> Assume I want a 1-minute recharge and that will require 50*60 = 3000kW.
>>>
>>> Equivalent to a thousand electric fires.
>>>
>>> What kind of plug will I need for that?
>>
>> https://electrek.co/2021/11/01/tesla-launches-new-home-charger-that-works-j1772-all-electric-cars/
>>
> Try again.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_J1772
>
> says "can deliver up to 19.2 kW"
>
> Not 3000kW.
>
> It also says there's an add on that takes it up to 350kW. A long way
> from a 1 minute charge, even if the batteries could take it.
>
> This implies we will need a lot more charging stations on big service
> areas compared to the number of fuel pumps - you don't just need enough
> so the queue doesn't get long, which is where we are on pumps, you need
> enough so there's almost never a queue.
>
> A guaranteed 25 minute charge on a long trip would be OK, time for a
> bite to eat. Not great, but OK.
>
> A 25 minute charge time with a queue of three before you get to the
> charge station would not be acceptable.

While I agree with that last bit, as far as I can tell, it sounds like
we might get something like 200 miles, or 300 km on one charge. Maybe a
bit less on that 25 minute charge.

One break to get a bite to eat is fine. Having to do one every 300
kilometers is not fine. I won't be grabbing a serious bite to eat every
2-3 hours.

Johnny

On Fri, 24 Feb 2023 05:59:09 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > On 24 Feb 2023 08:13:41 GMT
> > maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Asides from anything else, In Ireland, you would be getting very wet.
> >
> > Nah, a trip from here up the west coast to Donegal or so then
> > across to Belfast, down to Dublin and on to Wexford, across the bottom
> > to Cork and back up to Kerry (taking in Dingle of course) would be way
> > more than 700 miles.
> >
> > Doing it in a day would be positively heroic.
>
> I’m trying to picture the roads there, and I doubt you have too many
> superhighways (maybe “motorways” there?)

No, on that run there's some between Limerick and Donegal, Belfast
to Dublin and Dublin to Cork (and that's most of the network) but most of it
will be on single carriageway roads and some of it will be on windy bog
roads.

> If so, I agree with you. If you can clock 75-80 mph regularly, it’s
> only a bother.

Not a hope - 75-80 kph would be pushing your luck on the good bits
with short stretches of 120kph on the (few) motorways.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/

On 2023-02-24, Kerr-Mudd, John <admin@127.0.0.1> wrote:
> On 24 Feb 2023 10:40:07 GMT
> maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-02-24, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> > On 24 Feb 2023 08:13:41 GMT
>> > maus <maus@mail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 2023-02-23, Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
>> >> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2023 07:45:52 -0700
>> >> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> > cars this year - they seem to be exploring the load/range trade off.
>> >
>> > Long range is definitely where IC vehicles win, but unless you need
>> > it the EV wins in every other respect apart from price!
>> >
>>
>> I see the post office, which here is turning into a 4day service, has
>> changed its vehicles. A big thing in the whole problem is tax. I think
>> that if EV gets popular, the plugs will have to be different than
>> ordinary household plugs to allow electricy to be taxed for vehicles
>> like petrol and deisel presently is. Otherwise that tax will have to be
>> raised elsewhere.
>>
>
> Tax Guinness! Ah, that's already been thought of.

unlike electricity, tou can always make your own.
>
>> Yes, I agree, there are problems to be overcome under both systems (EV
>> or direct fuel), but saying `It will be all right on the night' will not
>> solve it.
>>
>>
>> --
>> greymausg@mail.com
>> where is our money gone, Dude?
>>
>
>

--
greymausg@mail.com
where is our money gone, Dude?

Vir Campestris <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> writes:
>On 23/02/2023 15:41, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>> Are you sure about that? Can you point to some published work
>> on this? Airbus is spending large amounts of money researching
>> hydrogen as a replacement for JET-A. Storage capability is
>> correlated with the size of the H2 molecule, not to mention
>> where do you_get_ the hydrogen (solar electrolosis requires a whole
>> shitload of solar panels to replace any substantial fraction of
>> fossil fuels - and why not juststore and use the electricity directly then?)
>
><snip>
>
>"why not juststore and use the electricity directly then?"
>
>The main current "green" power systems are solar (doesn't work at night)
>wind (only works when it's windy, and sometimes there are windless
>patches hundreds of miles across) and hydro (we've used all the good
>sites already). None of these will provide the power we want at the
>times we want it.
>
>If you have a system that will store electricity at grid scales we're
>all ears. The world really will beat a path to your door.

Do a google search on utility-scale storage. There are several systems
currently in operation, and a bunch more in various phases of investigation
from battery systems (li-ion and various flow batteries) to molten salt
systems and of course the standby pumped storage). There is plenty of
room for innovation in this segment.

>
>Storing hydrogen is one of the possible methods, but as we've discussed
>it has all sorts of problems.

You don't necessarily have to store it as molecular hydrogen.

https://www.iea.org/reports/grid-scale-storage