On 2023-09-09 07:59, Nic wrote:
> On 9/9/23 6:48 AM, bad sector wrote:
>> On 2023-09-08 17:03, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 9/8/23 14:08, azigni wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> There are several references to remove snap. They all take less than
>>>> ten minutes. All you need to do is be able to open a terminal and
>>>> copy and paste.
>>>>
>>>> Web browser Search: Ubuntu remove snap
>>>>
>>>> First suggestion of my search: https://itsfoss.com/remove-snap/
>>>> Doesn't get easier than than that.
>>>
>>> I'll look into it on Sunday, to see how the default package manager
>>> then installs/upgrades/reinstalls all my apps without snap. Its the
>>> apps that rule, OSes are after all just plugins for them.
>>
>>
>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>> with the system. Advanced users may do this only if they are not
>> afraid of the command line and troubleshooting the system. The latest
>> releases of Ubuntu has snap integrated deeply. Also, many
>> Ubuntu-specific features, like livepatch, will only work with snap
>> enabled. As a suggestion, do not perform this on your main production
>> machine, unless you know what you are doing."
>>
>> When I read stuff like this I normally run like hell, but this time I
>> just backed up the 'buntu partition and went at it. Turns out that
>> Firefox-v-nonsnap was already installed and the only snap stuff left was
>> snap system files. Killed every one of them. We'll see where the road
>> goes, for now (because I also want to do something useful with my time
>> and the zasf-dssi is absent in the installed Rosegarden) I get
>> problems associated with THAT (another thread belonging in
>> alt.os.linux.ubuntu only).
>>
>>
>>
> Reminds me of the good old days when M$ claimed that Internet Explorer
> was deeply integrated into the OS, and the court case that came out of
> this entwining.

Well lo and behold the system rebooted OK but then I only got a single
curser flash for logging-in and everything froze like Loctite®. I'm
already using the recovered *.dd partition :-)

Of course if Ubuntu want to follow microcancer that, as we say, is their
ship, their bridge, their watch.

Le 09-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
> On 09 Sep 2023 14:20:42 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Why has systemd gained such a near-complete hegemony?
>>
>> Because SysV is crap,
>>
>
> Says who?

Except old people who had passed their all life to understand and master
SysV and who can't be replaced? Everyone.

> Says you?

Not only. If I was the only one, it would never have been replaced.
Because it's way more work to change something like that than to stay
with your actual init system.

> Who the fuck are you?

It doesn't matter. I'm not the one who put SysV in the history of the
operating system.

> But SysV is not nearly the only init system available on GNU/Linux.

Yes. Now. Thanks to systemd. Before systemd, there was nothing really
usable. Canonical tried tu use something else, that failed and they were
happy to switch to systemd when it became available. Thanks to systemd,
the alternatives have improved to be able to keep await from it without
going back to SysV.

But still, the alternatives aren't that good. Granted, systemd do some
things it shouldn't. But as it's the init system, there are some reason
to put them there. And the alternatives don't take care of what
shouldn't be done by the init system. So that, the maintainers have to do
the work done by systemd for the other init systems if they want to
provide an init system along with systemd. The maintainers don't want
to. I can understand them. You can contribute to the distro if you want
to do it yourself.

> You do not understand my original point because you, like all the others,
> are a total idiot.

I found your previous message interesting. I was surprised and worried
about your health. I'm happy to see you are back and equal to yourself.

> I originally said that there is nothing wrong with systemd PER SE.

Yes. That's why I was worried.

> The problem is that the distros see it as a completely "either/or" issue.

As I wrote, it is something like that. And, as there are many distros,
each one choosing it's alternative, everything is OK.

> That is to say, in their view, GNU/Linux has to either be systemd or it
> has to be something else.

No. In their view they have to choose what they will maintain. A system
with systemd or a system with something else. The major one choose
systemd, others choose something else based on the major one.

For example, if you look at archlinux reasons, it's not, like you
believe, only to do the will of Red Hat:
<https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=1149530#p1149530>
<https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/4lzxs3/comment/d3rhxlc/?context=3>

They didn't choose systemd because if they didn't they would feel alone.
They where happy to do it because once the work involved done, they
would relieved from the miseries of SysV.

> This view is horribly wrong. Systemd should only be a choice among many
> choices and all distros should offer ALL choices or they should leave
> the world of FOSS.

Yes, but to be able do it, it needs a lot of work. When do you start?
Because you complain easily, but LFS propose only two init systems, so a
lot of them are missing.

And by the way I'd love to see how you put shepherd in LFS.

> Is that too complicated for your idiotic mind to comprehend?

The issue is not to understand what you mean but the implications of your
meaning.

>> The second reason, is gnome.
>>
>
> Fuck GNOME.

Why?

> I've never used GNOME and I never will use GNOME.

I don't like it, I'm not using it and I'll probably never use either. So
what?

> It is totally UNNECESSARY.

Why? OK, I, personally, have no use of it. But if a lot of people are
happy with it, why shouldn't they be able to use it? Because your great
speech about choice is only about your own choice?

> But GNOME spills over into GTK+ and the latest versions of GTK+
> are ridiculous lunacy.

For me, the major issue with gnome isn't GTK, it's what it does. As it
takes care of things it shouldn't, like managing the sound and the usb
disks. When you have gnome with another WM, it can be tricky sometimes.
But it's not a reason to refuse people happy with it to use it.

> QED the freedesktop/RedHat folly that is poisoning GNU/Linux.

Sometimes, having a little bit standard is good. I would like to have
all my config files in my ~/.config instead of in a lot of places. To
know where to find some information is easier when some standard is
respected.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

bad sector wrote:
> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
> with the system.

"built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
easily remove it, it is not "built-in"

lsb_release -a && apt-cache policy snapd firefox
No LSB modules are available.
Distributor ID: Ubuntu
Description: Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS
Release: 22.04
Codename: jammy
snapd:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 2.58+22.04.1
Version table:
2.58+22.04.1 500
500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates/main amd64
Packages
500 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-security/main amd64
Packages
2.55.3+22.04 500
500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages
firefox:
Installed: 117.0+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1
Candidate: 117.0+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1
Version table:
1:1snap1-0ubuntu2 -1
500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages
*** 117.0+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1 500
500 https://ppa.launchpadcontent.net/mozillateam/ppa/ubuntu
jammy/main amd64 Packages
100 /var/lib/dpkg/status

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> bad sector wrote:
>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>> with the system.
>
> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"

OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out, then
I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled and now I'm writing from
it. End of story.

> lsb_release -a && apt-cache policy snapd firefox
> No LSB modules are available.
> Distributor ID: Ubuntu
> Description: Ubuntu 22.04.3 LTS
> Release: 22.04
> Codename: jammy
> snapd:
> Installed: (none)
> Candidate: 2.58+22.04.1
> Version table:
> 2.58+22.04.1 500
> 500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates/main amd64
> Packages
> 500 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-security/main amd64
> Packages
> 2.55.3+22.04 500
> 500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages
> firefox:
> Installed: 117.0+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1
> Candidate: 117.0+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1
> Version table:
> 1:1snap1-0ubuntu2 -1
> 500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages
> *** 117.0+build2-0ubuntu0.22.04.1~mt1 500
> 500 https://ppa.launchpadcontent.net/mozillateam/ppa/ubuntu
> jammy/main amd64 Packages
> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status
>

On Sat, 09 Sep 2023 11:56:06 -0400, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:

> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 18:47:30 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>
>>
>> It's becoming harder not to use systemd because it simplifies things for
>> applications that don't have to duplicate code to make sure things they need
>> are available.
>>
>
> Oh, is it?
>
> I have never ever used that P.O.S. known as "systemd" and have never ever
> experienced any issues whatsoever regarding software usage.
>
> Would you care to give some specific examples where systemd is essential?
>
> In my opinion, any GNU/Linux software developer that creates software that
> is dependent on systemd should be ostracized from the FOSS community.
>
> But that will potentially implicate all the RedHat/IBM lackeys at freedesktop.org.
>
> People stand up! Purge these commercial influences from FOSS.

I am not saying it's essential. This is linux so there are always other ways of
doing things. It's easier for developers and distribution providers to use and
debug, and provides tools for them that simplify things. Those tools are now
used by some desktop environments such as gnome. While gnome can be used without
it, it's more difficult.

Where systems like sysv init are more difficult to work with are the edge cases
such as having /usr/local on a remote file system and it containing things to
be started at boot. That type of setup is used in some organizations. It can be
done, but is not easy, and since sysv init doesn't support having overrides in
a location that is not part of the package, updates must be done with more caution.

If you just use a linux install, the learning curve of the switch will be annoying
because the benefits are mostly not visible to end users. They do benefit from
fewer bugs, and having easier ways to customize things, but if they don't need
to customize things they will not see those as benefits.

For the package developers and distribution creators the benefits are much more
obvious.

If redhat and/or ibm ever decide to make changes to systemd that annoy enough
developers and distribution creators, then like any gpl licensed software, it
will get forked.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 2023-09-09 14:21, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 09-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
>> On 09 Sep 2023 14:20:42 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>> QED the freedesktop/RedHat folly that is poisoning GNU/Linux.
>
> Sometimes, having a little bit standard is good. I would like to have
> all my config files in my ~/.config instead of in a lot of places. To
> know where to find some information is easier when some standard is
> respected.
>

Anyone can chose Gnome if they like, OR kde, that's the whole idea.
*Artix offers 3 init systems*, all of them WORK. You can chose one at
installation OR you can switch them several times a day if that's what
tickles your fancy.

https://wiki.artixlinux.org/Main/Migration

What nobody wants (except looney losers) is to give a monopoly to a
single init system, or a single app, or a single box, or a single
smartphone, or a single OS ...but that's exactly what many distro
builders are doing. There's a saying that the only people who fantasize
about war and combat (see them 'games') are the snotty little fucks who
have never seen war. The same goes for freedom and choices, the only
people that don't even notice that it's being taken away from them are
the ones who have never lived without them because they had never been
taken away from them (yet!).

--
War, is the school of peace.

On Sat, 09 Sep 2023 17:34:10 -0400, bad sector <nosuch@invalid.gov> wrote:
> What nobody wants (except looney losers) is to give a monopoly to a
> single init system, or a single app, or a single box, or a single
> smartphone, or a single OS ...but that's exactly what many distro
> builders are doing. There's a saying that the only people who fantasize
> about war and combat (see them 'games') are the snotty little fucks who
> have never seen war. The same goes for freedom and choices, the only
> people that don't even notice that it's being taken away from them are
> the ones who have never lived without them because they had never been
> taken away from them (yet!).

The most of the distros that provide systemd only, previously only provided
sysv init, so the amount of choice has not changed, just which choice has been
made.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

Le 09-09-2023, bad sector <nosuch@INVALID.gov> a écrit :
> On 2023-09-09 14:21, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 09-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
>>> On 09 Sep 2023 14:20:42 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>> QED the freedesktop/RedHat folly that is poisoning GNU/Linux.
>>
>> Sometimes, having a little bit standard is good. I would like to have
>> all my config files in my ~/.config instead of in a lot of places. To
>> know where to find some information is easier when some standard is
>> respected.
>
> Anyone can chose Gnome if they like, OR kde, that's the whole idea.

Yes, but from what I saw, having KDE and gnome installed at the same
time can be tricky.

> What nobody wants (except looney losers) is to give a monopoly to a
> single init system, or a single app, or a single box, or a single
> smartphone, or a single OS

Of course.

> ...but that's exactly what many distro builders are doing.

No. Many distro are choosing, they have to. it doesn't mean they want
their distro being the only one used. They choose from a lot of reasons:
what kind of users they want to attract, what amount of work it will
trigger, what they want for themselves...

Some distro like archlinux and nixos have the most important number of
packages available. So they choose only one init system (systemd for
both of them, it's not an accident) and take care of other things. And
they let other people build upon their distro managing the differences.
It's what Artix does upon Archlinux and I never heard about a war about
it.

> There's a saying that the only people who fantasize
> about war and combat (see them 'games') are the snotty little fucks who
> have never seen war. The same goes for freedom and choices, the only
> people that don't even notice that it's being taken away from them are
> the ones who have never lived without them because they had never been
> taken away from them (yet!).

The first choice to do is about your distro. If you are a newbie, of
course, you take a distro someone around you knows to be able to help
you in case of need. Or a very popular distro on which you can find help
on internet. But when you are a newbie, you don't know the differences
between SysV/systemd/runit/shepherd/whatever. So, you take it as it is
and when you become more knowledgeable you can start to do your own
choices. And your own choice mean to start to choose your distro.

When I started to install Linux the first time, around 95, I had no
choice: Internet was very limited (at the university, not at home, and
when I was looking for pictures I saw them displayed at the time they
where downloded, so downloading Linux wasn't an option). So I bought a
book related to Linux with a CD inside and that was it: slackware.

But now, I can choose what I want, and I know why I make some choices.
And I know why I wouldn't tell beginners to do the choices I do for
myself. If you truly believe there is no choice, it's really because you
aren't looking for it.

But yes, ubuntu is for the beginners. So the choices made by Canonical
are toward the beginners. And beginners don't care about the war
against systemd. The beginners want to know if they will be able to
read their emails, to surf on Internet, read their documents and look
their pictures/videos. And that's nice. It doesn't mean there is no
choice. It means some people have different choices to do depending on
their priorities. Sometimes it's only getting things done fast and easy
to be able to focus on something else.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

bad sector wrote:
>
> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out, then
> I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled and now I'm writing from
> it. End of story.

Removing snapd has nothing to do with gdm3 used to login stock Ubuntu.
You removed something else.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 2023-09-09, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Sep 2023 09:30:34 -0000 (UTC), Jasen Betts wrote:
>
>>
>>> If a GNU/Linux distro cannot offer CHOICE then it should
>>> quietly step out of the game.
>>
>> Thus reducing choice further?
>
> No. Reducing anti-choice.
>

You really beleive that?

Where will this end one distro that includes every piece of crap
badly integrated?

--
Jasen.
🇺🇦 Слава Україні

---Not directed or meant as a direct reply to previous post.

I am amazed at all the crying and gnashing of teeth over small parts of
Linux. There are currently over 200 separate Linux distributions, some
of which are not children and do things there own way. Try one of them,
it may meet all your expectations.

MY first venture was Suse on three floppy diskettes. I didn't appreciate
what it was and bought a imac, then a second. Finally I retried Linux,
PCLinux OS, and from there to Debian with a little hopping along the
way, but mostly Debian based.

My point is, there are lots of options out there. If you do not like
Windoze, like to get petty over how your pc boots up, get over it, and
move on to another distro.

Ubuntu is going to do whatever Ubuntu wants. That should be perfectly
clear. Debian spent over $8 million last year. The other big players are
dropping/dumping in big bucks too.

I have donated $0.00 to Linux. I'm grateful for Linux in all its forms.
Be grateful, you too can be a user for $0.00. If that isn't good enough,
move on to another OS.

Without going past the first page of search results, I found these
alternate OS's. Maybe one of them fits you to a tee.

1. Linux: The Best Windows Alternative
2. Chromium OS
3. FreeBSD: The Free Operating System That Isn’t Linux
4. FreeDOS: Free Disk Operating System Based on MS-DOS
5. illumos: A Free OS for Your PC
6. ReactOS: The Free Windows Clone Operating System
7. Long-Running Free OS Haiku
8. MorphOS: An Alternative OS for Old Macs
9. A Free Alternative Operating System: AROS
10. MenuetOS
11. PrimeOS: A Free Android OS for PC
12. One of the Oldest Alternatives to Windows: RISC OS

If either Linux or one of these do not work for you, can we just stop
the whining?

On 09/09/2023 23:53, bad sector wrote:
> On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>> bad sector wrote:
>>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>>> with the system.
>>
>> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
>> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"
>
> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out, then I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled
> and now I'm writing from it. End of story.
>
>
>
<..snipped...>

probably PBK&C
Not a guru, myself. Followd easy-to-find instructions, now running fine withot snap Ub. 20.04, fully updated.

--
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#befor

On 9/10/23 01:00, Henry Crun wrote:
> On 09/09/2023 23:53, bad sector wrote:
>> On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>> bad sector wrote:
>>>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>>>> with the system.
>>>
>>> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
>>> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"
>>
>> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out,
>> then I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled and now I'm
>> writing from it. End of story.
>>
> <..snipped...>
>
> probably PBK&C

That's always possible but the steps listed really exlude unrelated
interventions.

> Not a guru, myself. Followd easy-to-find instructions, now running fine
> withot snap Ub. 20.04, fully updated.

I followed the instructions:

1
removed all the 'snap-listed' snap-based packages and then

2
removed all the snap-system packagess that remained.

I did nothing else. I might try again if and when I have time.

On 10/09/2023 14:34, bad sector wrote:
> On 9/10/23 01:00, Henry Crun wrote:
>> On 09/09/2023 23:53, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>> bad sector wrote:
>>>>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>>>>> with the system.
>>>>
>>>> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
>>>> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"
>>>
>>> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out, then I couldn't log in any more, then I
>>> backleveled and now I'm writing from it. End of story.
>>>
>> <..snipped...>
>>
>> probably PBK&C
>
> That's always possible but the steps listed really exlude unrelated interventions.
>
>> Not a guru, myself. Followd easy-to-find instructions, now running fine withot snap Ub. 20.04, fully updated.
>
> I followed the instructions:
>
> 1
> removed all the 'snap-listed' snap-based packages and then
>
> 2
> removed all the snap-system packagess that remained.
>
> I did nothing else. I might try again if and when I have time.
>
>
>
I did this over a year ago, and the site where I read the instructions is no longer accessable. But I do recall there
being more ste[s than what you mentioned. Sorry, memory cells are fading...

--
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#befor

On 9/10/23 00:53, this is what azigni wrote:
> I have donated $0.00 to Linux. I'm grateful for Linux in all its forms. Be grateful, you too can be a user for $0.00. If
> that isn't good enough, move on to another OS.
>
>
I thought about Mint's plea for donations, irregardless of which way the donations are going, I put in $25 last month.
I guess I was in just that right mood and as much as I use my machine, and the hours of fun and use I get a day out of
it, I thought $25 was a cheap expense. Not that it is flawless, just quite useful.

Soap box over.
--
Linux Mint 21.2 Cinnamon
Al

Henry Crun wrote:
> On 10/09/2023 14:34, bad sector wrote:
>> On 9/10/23 01:00, Henry Crun wrote:
>>> On 09/09/2023 23:53, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>>> bad sector wrote:
>>>>>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>>>>>> with the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
>>>>> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"
>>>>
>>>> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out,
>>>> then I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled and now I'm
>>>> writing from it. End of story.
>>>>
>>> <..snipped...>
>>>
>>> probably PBK&C
>>
>> That's always possible but the steps listed really exlude unrelated
>> interventions.
>>
>>> Not a guru, myself. Followd easy-to-find instructions, now running
>>> fine withot snap Ub. 20.04, fully updated.
>>
>> I followed the instructions:
>>
>> 1
>> removed all the 'snap-listed' snap-based packages and then
>>
>> 2
>> removed all the snap-system packagess that remained.
>>
>> I did nothing else. I might try again if and when I have time.
>>
>>
>>
> I did this over a year ago, and the site where I read the instructions
> is no longer accessable. But I do recall there being more ste[s than
> what you mentioned. Sorry, memory cells are fading...
>

Basically following these instructions, (one of many sites with same info):

<https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/04/how-to-install-firefox-deb-apt-ubuntu-22-04>

Then completely remove snapd if you have not other snap apps

sudo apt remove snapd

That is it.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 9/10/23 08:56, Henry Crun wrote:
> On 10/09/2023 14:34, bad sector wrote:
>> On 9/10/23 01:00, Henry Crun wrote:
>>> On 09/09/2023 23:53, bad sector wrote:
>>>> On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>>> bad sector wrote:
>>>>>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>>>>>> with the system.
>>>>>
>>>>> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
>>>>> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"
>>>>
>>>> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out,
>>>> then I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled and now I'm
>>>> writing from it. End of story.
>>>>
>>> <..snipped...>
>>>
>>> probably PBK&C
>>
>> That's always possible but the steps listed really exlude unrelated
>> interventions.
>>
>>> Not a guru, myself. Followd easy-to-find instructions, now running
>>> fine withot snap Ub. 20.04, fully updated.
>>
>> I followed the instructions:
>>
>> 1
>> removed all the 'snap-listed' snap-based packages and then
>>
>> 2
>> removed all the snap-system packagess that remained.
>>
>> I did nothing else. I might try again if and when I have time.
>>
> I did this over a year ago, and the site where I read the instructions
> is no longer accessable. But I do recall there being more ste[s than
> what you mentioned. Sorry, memory cells are fading...

Familiar :-)

No rush, I fixed a hsitload of outstanding issues so my ubuntu
2do list is _almost_ clear

On Sat, 09 Sep 2023 15:36:57 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:

>
> If redhat and/or ibm ever decide to make changes to systemd that annoy enough
> developers and distribution creators, then like any gpl licensed software, it
> will get forked.
>

There is much more to GNU/Linux than developers and distro creators. There
are also USERS and a LOT of users do not desire systemd, GNOME, KDE, etc.

But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the developers
and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.

This is no delusion. The "we know best and let the user be damned" attitude
is perhaps the norm among developers and distro maintainers.

There are some few exceptions, with Gentoo being the most significant.

It it were not for Gentoo I would not be able to maintain my custom GNU/Linux
system as I desire.

On 9/10/2023 11:02 AM, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
> Henry Crun wrote:
>> On 10/09/2023 14:34, bad sector wrote:
>>> On 9/10/23 01:00, Henry Crun wrote:
>>>> On 09/09/2023 23:53, bad sector wrote:
>>>>> On 2023-09-09 15:16, Jonathan N. Little wrote:
>>>>>> bad sector wrote:
>>>>>>> "I advise against removing snap support from Ubuntu as it is built-in
>>>>>>> with the system.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "built-in with the system" Sorry I am calling bs on that one. You can
>>>>>> easily remove it, it is not "built-in"
>>>>>
>>>>> OK, take it up with the copuke guru who wrote it. Me I took it out,
>>>>> then I couldn't log in any more, then I backleveled and now I'm
>>>>> writing from it. End of story.
>>>>>
>>>> <..snipped...>
>>>>
>>>> probably PBK&C
>>>
>>> That's always possible but the steps listed really exlude unrelated
>>> interventions.
>>>
>>>> Not a guru, myself. Followd easy-to-find instructions, now running
>>>> fine withot snap Ub. 20.04, fully updated.
>>>
>>> I followed the instructions:
>>>
>>> 1
>>> removed all the 'snap-listed' snap-based packages and then
>>>
>>> 2
>>> removed all the snap-system packagess that remained.
>>>
>>> I did nothing else. I might try again if and when I have time.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I did this over a year ago, and the site where I read the instructions
>> is no longer accessable. But I do recall there being more ste[s than
>> what you mentioned. Sorry, memory cells are fading...
>>
>
> Basically following these instructions, (one of many sites with same info):
>
> <https://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2022/04/how-to-install-firefox-deb-apt-ubuntu-22-04>
>
> Then completely remove snapd if you have not other snap apps
>
> sudo apt remove snapd
>
> That is it.
>

When I do

snap list

I see a "gnome" entry. I see Firefox too. In the tree,
Firefox is only available as a Snap, not as a .deb (whereas
Firefox is a .deb on Mint and acquired directly from Mozilla
in a brown paper bag).

If I do this

sudo apt remove snapd

then before and after I reboot the VM, the loop mounts are still there,
and the Snap packages are still running. The loop mounts are on top of
mount point /snap and thus the 4GB we see in the tree there, is all
squashfs mounts on top of /snap.

bullwinkle@SUPERFLY:~$ cat /etc/mtab
....
/dev/loop2 /snap/bare/5 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/loop3 /snap/core22/607 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/loop0 /snap/core22/858 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0

/dev/loop1 /snap/gnome-42-2204/126 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0 <=== Trouble ???
/dev/loop4 /snap/firefox/2517 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0 <=== Trouble ???

/dev/loop5 /snap/snapd-desktop-integration/83 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/sda2 /var/snap/firefox/common/host-hunspell ext4 ro,noexec,noatime 0 0
/dev/loop10 /snap/snapd/18933 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/loop8 /snap/gtk-common-themes/1535 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/loop7 /snap/gnome-42-2204/87 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/loop6 /snap/snap-store/959 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
/dev/loop9 /snap/snapd/19457 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
....
bullwinkle@SUPERFLY:~$

However, with no snapd, this command no longer works.

snap list # command not found

Doing that seems to remove the management of it, at least.

If, using Synaptic, I attempt the equivalent of

sudo apt install firefox

then it includes as a dependency, the snapd package I have just removed.

So not only will I have to switch over my Firefox, before doing
additional damage, I'll need to find Gnome DE too, as a .deb .
Ubuntu Studio might have different dependencies, similar to those.

*******

I gave it a try, and Ubuntu 23.04 survived the removal of its nads.

sudo apt remove snapd

Then, boot the DVD and do a bit more work.

sudo mount /dev/sda2 /mnt
cd /mnt/snap
sudo rm -Rf *
cd ..
sudo chattr +i snap # This keeps the naughty munchkins from mounting stuff in here
sudo umount /mnt

On a reboot, it still works. There is a "gnome" entry in Synaptic,
so maybe a .deb version there awaits.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/FHKCK8Ss/ub2304-unsnapped.gif

Paul

On 9/10/23 4:52 PM, Nux Vomica wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2023 15:36:57 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>
>> If redhat and/or ibm ever decide to make changes to systemd that annoy enough
>> developers and distribution creators, then like any gpl licensed software, it
>> will get forked.
>>
> There is much more to GNU/Linux than developers and distro creators. There
> are also USERS and a LOT of users do not desire systemd, GNOME, KDE, etc.
>
> But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the developers
> and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.
>
> This is no delusion. The "we know best and let the user be damned" attitude
> is perhaps the norm among developers and distro maintainers.
>
> There are some few exceptions, with Gentoo being the most significant.
>
> It it were not for Gentoo I would not be able to maintain my custom GNU/Linux
> system as I desire.
>
I give up, what is so special about Gentoo, your personal subjective
will be ok for starters.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 16:52:17 -0400, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
> There is much more to GNU/Linux than developers and distro creators. There
> are also USERS and a LOT of users do not desire systemd, GNOME, KDE, etc.

They are free to use linux from scratch or a distribution that suits their
preferences.

> But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the developers
> and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.
> This is no delusion. The "we know best and let the user be damned" attitude
> is perhaps the norm among developers and distro maintainers.

While I understand the perception, I don't agree with it. There will always be
disagreements over how things should be done. The distro has to go with what
can it do with the resources it has, that satisfies as many of the users as
possible.

There is no way one distribution can do everything that everyone wants.

> There are some few exceptions, with Gentoo being the most significant.
> It it were not for Gentoo I would not be able to maintain my custom GNU/Linux
> system as I desire.

Then stay with gentoo, and stop don't whine about what other distributions choose
to do with their resources.

With gentoo, it's great for the more technically experienced users. Not so much
for the new linux users, or those using low power hardware, who just want
something that works easily, out of the box.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

On 9/10/23 14:52, Nux Vomica wrote:
> But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the developers
> and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.
>
Sorry, this is no delusion either. Want some cheese? Why are you beating
a dead horse?

I think this distribution will suit you perfectly. You can have Linux
working exactly the way you want it.

https://www.linuxfromscratch.org/

Welcome to Linux From Scratch!

Linux From Scratch (LFS) is a project that provides you with
step-by-step instructions for building your own custom Linux system,
entirely from source code.

Currently, the Linux From Scratch organization consists of the following
subprojects:

LFS :: Linux From Scratch is the main book, the base from which all
other projects are derived.
BLFS :: Beyond Linux From Scratch helps you extend your finished
LFS installation into a more customized and usable system.
ALFS :: Automated Linux From Scratch provides tools for automating
and managing LFS and BLFS builds.
Hints :: The Hints project is a collection of documents that
explain how to enhance your LFS system in ways that are not included in
the LFS or BLFS books.
Patches :: The Patches project serves as a central repository for
all patches useful to an LFS user.
LFS Editor's Guide :: A document that describes the LFS development
process.
Museum :: Copies of ancient LFS and BLFS versions.

On 9/9/23 19:02, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 09-09-2023, bad sector <nosuch@INVALID.gov> a écrit :
>> On 2023-09-09 14:21, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 09-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
>>>> On 09 Sep 2023 14:20:42 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>>>> QED the freedesktop/RedHat folly that is poisoning GNU/Linux.
>>>
>>> Sometimes, having a little bit standard is good. I would like to have
>>> all my config files in my ~/.config instead of in a lot of places. To
>>> know where to find some information is easier when some standard is
>>> respected.
>>
>> Anyone can chose Gnome if they like, OR kde, that's the whole idea.
>
> Yes, but from what I saw, having KDE and gnome installed at the same
> time can be tricky.
>
>> What nobody wants (except looney losers) is to give a monopoly to a
>> single init system, or a single app, or a single box, or a single
>> smartphone, or a single OS
>
> Of course.
>
>> ...but that's exactly what many distro builders are doing.
>
> No. Many distro are choosing, they have to. it doesn't mean they want
> their distro being the only one used. They choose from a lot of reasons:
> what kind of users they want to attract, what amount of work it will
> trigger, what they want for themselves...
Correct me if I misread something but by 2015 MOST distros (weighted)
had already adopted systemd and the ease it offers to developers will
IMO very quickly drive it to almost total monopoly. The only distros
resisting will be few and far between with dark futures. I am already
limiting all future new distros to be considered to non-systemd ones
because when systemd does hit monopoly it WILL start dictating kernel
development, directions and policy. I will have none of it.

On 2023-09-10, David W. Hodgins <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 16:52:17 -0400, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
>> There is much more to GNU/Linux than developers and distro creators. There
>> are also USERS and a LOT of users do not desire systemd, GNOME, KDE, etc.
>
> They are free to use linux from scratch or a distribution that suits their
> preferences.
>
>> But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the developers
>> and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.
>> This is no delusion. The "we know best and let the user be damned" attitude
>> is perhaps the norm among developers and distro maintainers.
>
> While I understand the perception, I don't agree with it. There will always be
> disagreements over how things should be done. The distro has to go with what
> can it do with the resources it has, that satisfies as many of the users as
> possible.
>
> There is no way one distribution can do everything that everyone wants.

That's why I see multiple distributions of Linux to be a huge plus. If you
look around you'll probably come close to one that will match your
preferences. For me it's stability, ease of use and a "traditional" desktop.
That's why I've been using Linux Mint for about 15 years.

Choice is good.

>> There are some few exceptions, with Gentoo being the most significant.
>> It it were not for Gentoo I would not be able to maintain my custom GNU/Linux
>> system as I desire.
>
> Then stay with gentoo, and stop don't whine about what other distributions choose
> to do with their resources.
>
> With gentoo, it's great for the more technically experienced users. Not so much
> for the new linux users, or those using low power hardware, who just want
> something that works easily, out of the box.
>
> Regards, Dave Hodgins

--
Freedom. Use it or lose it.

On 2023-09-10 16:52, Nux Vomica wrote:
> On Sat, 09 Sep 2023 15:36:57 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>
>>
>> If redhat and/or ibm ever decide to make changes to systemd that annoy enough
>> developers and distribution creators, then like any gpl licensed software, it
>> will get forked.
>>
>
> There is much more to GNU/Linux than developers and distro creators. There
> are also USERS and a LOT of users do not desire systemd, GNOME, KDE, etc.
>
> But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the developers
> and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.
>
> This is no delusion. The "we know best and let the user be damned" attitude
> is perhaps the norm among developers and distro maintainers.
>
> There are some few exceptions, with Gentoo being the most significant.
>
> It it were not for Gentoo I would not be able to maintain my custom GNU/Linux
> system as I desire.

I tend to agree, in 30 years no one has EVER asked me anything about my
preferences. If I were a dev I would ask users to authorize their
preferences file to call-itself home AND would let THAT guide policy
exclusively. Example-wise, I ask how come most browsers cater to the
needs of a very small merchant minority AT ALL? Why is HTML developing
always more to limit rather than enforce optionally total privacy? Just
how free IS linux?

--
Mondays are Artix days: Kernel=6.4.12-artix1-1 on x86_64,
DM=Unknown, DE=KDE, ST=x11,grub2, GPT, BIOS-boot
https://imgur.com/UPyLC3A.png