Paul wrote:
> When I do
>
> snap list
>
> I see a "gnome" entry. I see Firefox too. In the tree,
> Firefox is only available as a Snap, not as a .deb (whereas
> Firefox is a .deb on Mint and acquired directly from Mozilla
> in a brown paper bag).
>
> If I do this
>
> sudo apt remove snapd
>
> then before and after I reboot the VM, the loop mounts are still there,
> and the Snap packages are still running. The loop mounts are on top of
> mount point /snap and thus the 4GB we see in the tree there, is all
> squashfs mounts on top of /snap.
>
> bullwinkle@SUPERFLY:~$ cat /etc/mtab
> ...
> /dev/loop2 /snap/bare/5 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/loop3 /snap/core22/607 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/loop0 /snap/core22/858 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
>
> /dev/loop1 /snap/gnome-42-2204/126 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0 <=== Trouble ???
> /dev/loop4 /snap/firefox/2517 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0 <=== Trouble ???
>
> /dev/loop5 /snap/snapd-desktop-integration/83 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/sda2 /var/snap/firefox/common/host-hunspell ext4 ro,noexec,noatime 0 0
> /dev/loop10 /snap/snapd/18933 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/loop8 /snap/gtk-common-themes/1535 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/loop7 /snap/gnome-42-2204/87 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/loop6 /snap/snap-store/959 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> /dev/loop9 /snap/snapd/19457 squashfs ro,nodev,relatime,errors=continue,threads=single 0 0
> ...
> bullwinkle@SUPERFLY:~$
>
> However, with no snapd, this command no longer works.
>
> snap list # command not found
>
> Doing that seems to remove the management of it, at least.
>
> If, using Synaptic, I attempt the equivalent of
>
> sudo apt install firefox
>
> then it includes as a dependency, the snapd package I have just removed.
>
> So not only will I have to switch over my Firefox, before doing
> additional damage, I'll need to find Gnome DE too, as a .deb .
> Ubuntu Studio might have different dependencies, similar to those.
>
> *******
>
> I gave it a try, and Ubuntu 23.04 survived the removal of its nads.
>
> sudo apt remove snapd
>
> Then, boot the DVD and do a bit more work.
>
> sudo mount /dev/sda2 /mnt
> cd /mnt/snap
> sudo rm -Rf *
> cd ..
> sudo chattr +i snap # This keeps the naughty munchkins from mounting stuff in here
> sudo umount /mnt
>
> On a reboot, it still works. There is a "gnome" entry in Synaptic,
> so maybe a .deb version there awaits.
>
> [Picture]
>
> https://i.postimg.cc/FHKCK8Ss/ub2304-unsnapped.gif

Firstly IIRC he was using 22.04 LTS, and my example was for 22.04 LTS.
Non-LTS can be a crapshoot. I have a HP EliteBook that has 23.04 but I
haven't bothered to remove the snap version of Firefox because I was
testing the claim that they improved the snap load times and it seems
that they have.

Now before you can remove snapd you do have to change the repository
priority of Firefox to the deb, else after an update the snap version
will be reinstalled. But, at least with 22.04, after doing the previous
steps nothing breaks when your remove snapd.

snapd:
Installed: (none)
Candidate: 2.58+22.04.1
Version table:
2.58+22.04.1 500
500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-updates/main amd64
Packages
500 http://security.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy-security/main amd64
Packages
2.55.3+22.04 500
500 http://us.archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu jammy/main amd64 Packages

No snapd.

sysfs /sys sysfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
proc /proc proc rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
udev /dev devtmpfs
rw,nosuid,relatime,size=3805692k,nr_inodes=951423,mode=755,inode64 0 0
devpts /dev/pts devpts
rw,nosuid,noexec,relatime,gid=5,mode=620,ptmxmode=000 0 0
tmpfs /run tmpfs
rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=769476k,mode=755,inode64 0 0
/dev/sda1 / ext4 rw,relatime,errors=remount-ro 0 0
securityfs /sys/kernel/security securityfs
rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
tmpfs /dev/shm tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,inode64 0 0
tmpfs /run/lock tmpfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,size=5120k,inode64 0 0
cgroup2 /sys/fs/cgroup cgroup2
rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,nsdelegate,memory_recursiveprot 0 0
pstore /sys/fs/pstore pstore rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
bpf /sys/fs/bpf bpf rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,mode=700 0 0
systemd-1 /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc autofs
rw,relatime,fd=29,pgrp=1,timeout=0,minproto=5,maxproto=5,direct,pipe_ino=18610
0 0
mqueue /dev/mqueue mqueue rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
hugetlbfs /dev/hugepages hugetlbfs rw,relatime,pagesize=2M 0 0
debugfs /sys/kernel/debug debugfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
tracefs /sys/kernel/tracing tracefs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
ramfs /run/credentials/systemd-sysusers.service ramfs
ro,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime,mode=700 0 0
configfs /sys/kernel/config configfs rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
fusectl /sys/fs/fuse/connections fusectl rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
/dev/sdb1 /mnt/extra ext4 rw,relatime 0 0
/dev/sda5 /home ext4 rw,relatime 0 0
binfmt_misc /proc/sys/fs/binfmt_misc binfmt_misc
rw,nosuid,nodev,noexec,relatime 0 0
sunrpc /run/rpc_pipefs rpc_pipefs rw,relatime 0 0
tmpfs /run/user/1000 tmpfs
rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,size=769472k,nr_inodes=192368,mode=700,uid=1000,gid=1000,inode64
0 0
gvfsd-fuse /run/user/1000/gvfs fuse.gvfsd-fuse
rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=1000 0 0
portal /run/user/1000/doc fuse.portal
rw,nosuid,nodev,relatime,user_id=1000,group_id=1000 0 0

No snap virtual mounts...no broken GNOME.

--
Take care,

Jonathan
-------------------
LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com

On 2023-09-09, Jasen Betts <usenet@revmaps.no-ip.org> wrote:
> On 2023-09-08, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
>> On Fri, 08 Sep 2023 11:25:51 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>
>> If a GNU/Linux distro cannot offer CHOICE then it should
>> quietly step out of the game.
>
> Thus reducing choice further?

It offers choice by simply being available. If it's a choice "Nux Vomica"
doesn't personally like, then he can choose something else. That's how
choice works.

Non-problem "solved."

--
"Evil preaches tolerance until it is dominant, then it tries to silence good."
-- Archbishop Charles J. Chaput

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 17:32:23 -0400, Nic wrote:

>
> I give up, what is so special about Gentoo, your personal subjective
> will be ok for starters.
>

Gentoo is the ultimate Linux distro. Hands down.

It's blurb says it all: Your Linux, Your Way.

And that is EXACTLY what it is.

All good software should be near-infinitely configurable and on Unix systems
this is indeed the norm. All good Linux distros should be near-infinitely
configurable as well, but only Gentoo fulfills this mandate.

Much, i.e. whole books, can be said about Gentoo. But I will give a quick
though very incomplete overview.

First, there are several flavors, or profiles, of Gentoo. Some of them are
the "hardened", the "multilib", and the "desktop" profiles. Each profile contains
a relevant set of configuration options that effect the goals of that profile.
This can spare a user much effort.

But the profiles themselves are fully configurable and profile options can
be overridden by the user. Custom profiles can also be created by a user.
With Gentoo the user ALWAYS maintains ultimate control.

Second, once a particular profile is selected, the building and installation
of all software is determined by the "USE" flags. These flags essentially
control which configure options are enabled/disabled for a particular software
package. USE flags can be invoked either globally for all packages or individually
for a single package.

Each package in the Gentoo repository has an associated "ebuild" file that
contains all info necessary to build and install a package, and like everything
else, the ebuild file is editable by the user so the user is again in complete
control of every phase of the build process right down to the smallest detail.

All of this may sound extremely complicated but with a bit of experience it all
becomes very straightforward, fast, and natural.

Furthermore, Gentoo can accommodate all types of users from novice to advanced.

A novice user can let the profiles do all the work while the advanced user can
create an intensely customized distro down to the fine details.

The best thing about Gentoo is that it is totally AUTOMATED. Once a week
I execute the simple command:

emerge -sync && emerge -Du world

This automagically downloads, builds, and installs any and all updates.
(Even LibreOffice, which takes about 40 minutes to compile.)

There is no doubt. Gentoo is the ultimate Linux distro. It can be as simple
or as complex as one desires.

There should be no reason for anyone, at any skill level, to use anything
else.

Incidentally, my favorite USE flag is "-systemd."

This imperative instructs Gentoo to exclude that abomination from the system.

But one question does remain. Is intense customization a worthy goal?

The answer is a resounding "yes!"

I am not a fan of benchmarks but I have run a few comparisons between generically
built software, i.e. the kind that is delivered by most distros, and highly
optimized versions.

The result is that if one eliminates all the security features (i.e. stack protection,
etc.) and includes relevant compiler optimizations across the kernel and all software
then performance will increase by at least 30% and even more in a lot of cases.

There is no substitute for extreme optimization and most distros will not deliver.

Does this REALLY make a difference?

To the novice user perhaps not. But to the power user it can mean rendering, for
example, a POVRAY animation in 2 hours as opposed to 3 hours, and believe me that
difference is HUGE.

I encourage everyone to use Gentoo. Start off at the novice level and then
learn more and work you way to the advanced level. In the long run, you will
be richly rewarded.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 23:04:09 -0400, bad sector wrote:

> Correct me if I misread something but by 2015 MOST distros (weighted)
> had already adopted systemd and the ease it offers to developers will
> IMO very quickly drive it to almost total monopoly. The only distros
> resisting will be few and far between with dark futures. I am already
> limiting all future new distros to be considered to non-systemd ones
> because when systemd does hit monopoly it WILL start dictating kernel
> development, directions and policy. I will have none of it.
>

You are absolutely correct, sir.

But systemd has already been dictating kernel development.

Their GNOME project requires interprocess communication (IPC).
They consider DBUS, a user-space program, to be inadequate
and so they demand that IPC be built in to the kernel (first
kmod and then Bus1).

So far, their demands have been rejected by Torvalds and many
other kernel developers, but they'll keep trying.

In effect, systemd is demanding a requirement for kernel-space
IPC for user-space software (i.e. GNOME). This is outrageous!

Systemd is really a dangerous trend that should be rejected
by everyone.

On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 19:08:08 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:

>
> Then stay with gentoo, and stop don't whine about what other distributions choose
> to do with their resources.
>

What you call a "whine" is in reality a "protestation" against the hegemony of
systemd that literally threatens the freedom of GNU/Linux and FOSS.

All GNU/Linux users should be aware of this danger.

Systemd is NOT merely an alternative init system and service manager.

Systemd is a work in progress and is the forefront of a commercial expropriation
of all of GNU/Linux.

On 9/14/23 15:28, Nux Vomica wrote:
> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 19:08:08 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>
>>
>> Then stay with gentoo, and stop don't whine about what other distributions choose
>> to do with their resources.
>>
>
> What you call a "whine" is in reality a "protestation" against the hegemony of
> systemd that literally threatens the freedom of GNU/Linux and FOSS.

EEE at its best? What's next, the pink stub for Torvalds?

> All GNU/Linux users should be aware of this danger.
>
> Systemd is NOT merely an alternative init system and service manager.
>
> Systemd is a work in progress and is the forefront of a commercial expropriation
> of all of GNU/Linux.
>

Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I have kept AvLinux, Ubuntu-Studio
and two Suse systems in my stable in the mistaken belief that systemd
was just another option to be preserved. Not sure about AvLinux, it uses
MX. I'm upgrading all 4 to death-row, just a question of time to find
replacements, a year on the outside.

14 microcancer-free distros:
https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/

Nux Vomica wrote:
> Furthermore, Gentoo can accommodate all types of users from novice to
> advanced.
>
> A novice user can let the profiles do all the work while the advanced
> user can create an intensely customized distro down to the fine
> details.

I was surprised to find a useful thread in the gentoo forums started by
a user that was new to linux and wanted to check out gentoo. He was
welcomed and well encouraged.

https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1037416-start-0.html
Completely new to Linux, want to try Gentoo

He didn't sound like someone who had just fallen off the turnip truck :-)

--
Mike Easter

On 9/14/23 16:15, bad sector wrote:
> On 9/14/23 15:28, Nux Vomica wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Sep 2023 19:08:08 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Then stay with gentoo, and stop don't whine about what other
>>> distributions choose
>>> to do with their resources.
>>>
>>
>> What you call a "whine" is in reality a "protestation" against the
>> hegemony of
>> systemd that literally threatens the freedom of GNU/Linux and FOSS.
>
> EEE at its best?  What's next, the pink stub for Torvalds?
>
>> All GNU/Linux users should be aware of this danger.
>>
>> Systemd is NOT merely an alternative init system and service manager.
>>
>> Systemd is a work in progress and is the forefront of a commercial
>> expropriation
>> of all of GNU/Linux.
>>
>
> Thanks for pointing out my mistake. I have kept AvLinux, Ubuntu-Studio
> and two Suse systems in my stable in the mistaken belief that systemd
> was just another option to be preserved. Not sure about AvLinux, it uses
> MX. I'm upgrading all 4 to death-row, just a question of time to find
> replacements, a year on the outside.
>
>
> 14 microcancer-free distros:
> https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/

Red pencil: my bad, the list is actually much longer
if we consider those distros that offer several init
systems (I was just eyeballing gentoo which like Artix
offers several of them though including systemd as well)

On 2023-09-14, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
>
> I encourage everyone to use Gentoo. Start off at the novice level and then
> learn more and work you way to the advanced level. In the long run, you will
> be richly rewarded.

I'm happy you've found a Linux distribution you like. I like Linux Mint.

Choice is good.

--
Freedom. Use it or lose it.

Le 11-09-2023, bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> a écrit :
> On 9/9/23 19:02, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>
>> No. Many distro are choosing, they have to. it doesn't mean they want
>> their distro being the only one used. They choose from a lot of reasons:
>> what kind of users they want to attract, what amount of work it will
>> trigger, what they want for themselves...
> Correct me if I misread something but by 2015 MOST distros (weighted)
> had already adopted systemd and the ease it offers to developers will
> IMO very quickly drive it to almost total monopoly. The only distros
> resisting will be few and far between with dark futures. I am already
> limiting all future new distros to be considered to non-systemd ones
> because when systemd does hit monopoly it WILL start dictating kernel
> development, directions and policy. I will have none of it.

At the start of Linux, there was no such thing as choice, there was only
SysV. So, it was a monopoly of SysV which dictated de facto the way the
kernel was build. So now, I'd like to know why a monopoly of SysV was
good when it's technologically crap when a monopoly of systemd is bad
when it's technologically better.

Now, systemd looks like a monopoly because every major distro choose to
use it. There are some alternative (unavailable at the start of Linux,
mind you). But nobody use them because they choose to avoid the issues
solved by systemd when they criticise it. Except shepherd which was
created by guix because they like to go further than nix when they still
use systemd when that suit them.

But as long as you are unable to provide a good alternative, the only
thing you can do is crying. Systemd was the first to use namespaces
andcgroup. Before docker. They are not only requesting improvement, they
are also using the good things provided from the kernel.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 14-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
>
> But systemd has already been dictating kernel development.

No.

> Their GNOME project requires interprocess communication (IPC).
> They consider DBUS, a user-space program, to be inadequate
> and so they demand that IPC be built in to the kernel (first
> kmod and then Bus1).

Gnome is neither the kernel nor systemd. It requires (almost) systemd,
it's not the same thing.

> So far, their demands have been rejected by Torvalds and many
> other kernel developers, but they'll keep trying.

So, you agree they are not dictating anything to the kernel development.
They are requesting. And if Linus agrees, because he believe it's a good
thing, he does it, if he disagrees, he rejects it. Which is a very good
way to work together. When a new thing is needed, the experts (ie: not
you) agree on the right place to put it and on the right way to take
care of it.

The kernel's evolutions need to be very close to the init system when
someone (not you) want to have a modern computer.

> Systemd is really a dangerous trend that should be rejected
> by everyone.

The way I'm using my computer today is not the way I used it 30 years
ago. And Linux has been able to evolved with the new needs. I know, you
are stuck in the past, you spend more time compiling (or trying to)
gentoo than using it, but you don't have to keep up with updates if the
only thing you want to do is use it the way you used it 30 years ago.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 9/16/23 09:15, Stéphane CARPENTIER a composé:
> Le 11-09-2023, bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> a écrit :

>> Correct me if I misread something but by 2015 MOST distros (weighted)
>> had already adopted systemd and the ease it offers to developers will
>> IMO very quickly drive it to almost total monopoly. The only distros
>> resisting will be few and far between with dark futures. I am already
>> limiting all future new distros to be considered to non-systemd ones
>> because when systemd does hit monopoly it WILL start dictating kernel
>> development, directions and policy. I will have none of it.
>
> At the start of Linux, there was no such thing as choice, there was only
> SysV. So, it was a monopoly of SysV which dictated de facto the way the
> kernel was build. So now, I'd like to know why a monopoly of SysV was
> good when it's technologically crap when a monopoly of systemd is bad
> when it's technologically better.
>
> Now, systemd looks like a monopoly because every major distro choose to
> use it.

By a monopoly I mean control of Linux by virtue of its rather obvious
ambitions which *to me* look like a challenge to the kernel, to
Torvalds, and to everything that Linux means to me and many others.
Simply put it seems to be cutting much too wide a swath and reminds me
of the late Gen'l Prigozhin :-)))

Choice is fine, anyone who likes it can use it. As a 2nd step in
liberating my computer (after finally dumping the glass-crap terravirus)
I have placed all distros using ONLY systemd on death row and am just
about to install gentoo for the first time, it replaces Ubuntu-Studio,
thus raising my systemd-free systems to 4. It's like a ministerial
remanipulation. Of the 3 systemd users remaining I might keep Suse
Tumbleweed for a spell, on a thin thread, only because of seniority
rights ..Suse was the 2nd one I ever tried just when it was forking from
Slackware).

--
Ain't but five things in life worth fighting for, namely these
four: sex, loot, and the freedom to pursue high ideals!

Le 11-09-2023, bad sector <nomail@_invalid.nos.pam> a écrit :
> On 2023-09-10 16:52, Nux Vomica wrote:
>> On Sat, 09 Sep 2023 15:36:57 -0400, David W. Hodgins wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> If redhat and/or ibm ever decide to make changes to systemd that
>>> annoy enough developers and distribution creators, then like any gpl
>>> licensed software, it will get forked.
>>>
>>
>> There is much more to GNU/Linux than developers and distro creators.
>> There are also USERS and a LOT of users do not desire systemd, GNOME,
>> KDE, etc.

No. A very few users are very loud about the war against systemd. But
the vast majority of users don't care about systemd. The vast majority
of users don't care about xorg/wayland. The vast majority of users don"t
care about lilo/grub. The vast majority of users don't know uefi is not
bios.

The vast majority of users care about the way they can keep in touch
with their family and friends. If you explain the majority of users the
gafam are bad, the question that follows is: OK, so how can I do? So you
have to provide alternatives.

But they won't care about the internal way their system is working. They
don't want to care, so they never will.

>> But the voice of these users is totally disregarded because the
>> developers and distro maintainers have the "we know best" attitude.

No. First, the distro maintainers do what they want, you disagree with
their choices? Good, create your own distro. If your choices are good, a
lot of people will follow you. Second, the voices of the users are
disregarded because they are empty. If you don't like systemd, you can
propose something better. As long as you are unable to propose something
better, you are only a barking voice and so you are disregarded.

>> There are some few exceptions, with Gentoo being the most significant.

Of course, Gentoo is more a manual than a distro. It's easier to tell
people how to do things and let them being on their own than do all the
process.

With ubuntu, they install everything. The end-user has only to choose a
few option, like his language, and if he wants to remove everything that
was installed previously or not. The end-user don't want to learn about
bios, uefi, lilo, grub, sysint, systemd, runit, xorg, wayland. They just
want it to run and it's what ubuntu provides. It's a distro well suited
for beginners, and if you don't like the defaults because you know what
you need, so keep away from ubuntu. That's it.

I'm not using ubuntu and I will never tell people to do the same choices
I do because the way I'm using my computer is not the way they want to
use their. But I'm not disregarding the other distros because the
defaults choices are not the best ones for me.

>> It it were not for Gentoo I would not be able to maintain my custom
>> GNU/Linux system as I desire.
>
> I tend to agree, in 30 years no one has EVER asked me anything about
> my preferences.

Of course, 30 years ago, there was no choice. The SysV was the only one.
You couldn't get away of X11. There was only lilo. There was only fvwm
with a few config files. So back then having no choices was good and now
having choices is bad because some default are done without your
consent?

What are you doing to participate in the choices. Are you actively in
touch with the maintainers? Because you can start there if you want your
preferences to be taken into account.

> If I were a dev

Yes, if you were. Have you ever been? Do you know what their work is?

> I would ask users

How? Now, almost every open source project is on github/gitlab/whatever
and if you want you can go there to ask questions/improvement.

> to authorize their preferences file
> to call-itself home AND would let THAT guide policy exclusively.

Of course, ten thousand people with a different and strong vision, how
would you do it to be able to reply positively to them all?

I really don't see any tool I'm using which can't be configured like I
want. Of course it would be better if every config file was in a
directory in .config but you call it a monopoly (oK, not you, FR but
it's the same for this discussion).

> Example-wise, I ask how come most browsers cater to the needs of a
> very small merchant minority AT ALL?

It's called a RFC. It's a norm and it's way better than 30 years ago
where no browser followed it and each one was implementing it's own
vision of what the web should be.

> Why is HTML developing always more to limit rather than enforce
> optionally total privacy? Just how free IS linux?

It looks like it's very confused for you. Do you know what html is?
What's its relation with Linux?

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 14-09-2023, Mike Easter <MikeE@ster.invalid> a écrit :
> Nux Vomica wrote:
>> Furthermore, Gentoo can accommodate all types of users from novice to
>> advanced.
>>
>> A novice user can let the profiles do all the work while the advanced
>> user can create an intensely customized distro down to the fine
>> details.
>
> I was surprised to find a useful thread in the gentoo forums started
> by a user that was new to linux and wanted to check out gentoo. He
> was welcomed and well encouraged.
>
> https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-1037416-start-0.html Completely
> new to Linux, want to try Gentoo
>
>
> He didn't sound like someone who had just fallen off the turnip truck
> :-)

Of course, he didn't come to Gentoo because it looks cool and wanted
everyone else to do the work for him. He wanted to learn, and so, was
welcomed.

The people are willing to help, it's not the same thing as doing it
because the other don't want to understand. Some people are coming
because they have issues, they want only answers they can copy/paste
without trying to understand. Those people are not welcome. It's not
related to gentoo, it's the same everywhere.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 14-09-2023, bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> a écrit :
> On 9/14/23 16:15, bad sector wrote:
>>
>> 14 microcancer-free distros:
>> https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/
>
> Red pencil: my bad, the list is actually much longer
> if we consider those distros that offer several init
> systems (I was just eyeballing gentoo which like Artix
> offers several of them though including systemd as well)

So everything's OK, there is no monopoly and you can sleep well. Good.

Just about your link. I understand someone can consider systemd bloated
by itself. But saying SysV is simple compared to systemd is just a joke.

I agree, it's really a big issue with systemd, there are a lot of
documentation, but there is nowhere to start. It really miss something
to start and to follow until being able to master.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 16-09-2023, bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> a écrit :
> I have placed all distros using ONLY systemd on death row

And for the distros who propose only openrc, runit or so.6, you have the
same treatment or they deserve a special favor?

Because it's easy to tell people chose what you want, here are the man
pages (which is LFS and Gentoo way, Archlinux a little bit less). When
you want to tell people, just clic here and your choice will be
automatically installed, it's a little bit trickier. And criticise the
default is easy, to provide an alternative way is more difficult.

Actually, if every major distro choose systemd, it's because it's
actually the best. The day something really better appears, they will
switch for it.

Mind you, you do what you want. I really don't care if you want to use
something else than systemd. You can do it, I will not object. What I'm
saying is the choice of the init system is very important and if you ask
for a distro who chose to use systemd to propose alternatives in the name
of choice, you should ask distros which chose only openrc, runit or
anything else to propose alternatives. Just to be coherent in the name
of choice.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 9/16/23 10:34, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 14-09-2023, bad sector <forgetski@INVALID.net> a écrit :
>> On 9/14/23 16:15, bad sector wrote:
>>>
>>> 14 microcancer-free distros:
>>> https://itsfoss.com/systemd-free-distros/
>>
>> Red pencil: my bad, the list is actually much longer
>> if we consider those distros that offer several init
>> systems (I was just eyeballing gentoo which like Artix
>> offers several of them though including systemd as well)
>
> So everything's OK, there is no monopoly and you can sleep well. Good.
>
> Just about your link. I understand someone can consider systemd bloated
> by itself. But saying SysV is simple compared to systemd is just a joke.
>
> I agree, it's really a big issue with systemd, there are a lot of
> documentation, but there is nowhere to start. It really miss something
> to start and to follow until being able to master.

Bottom line, it's just like democracy, neither one
is about being right or wrong, the qualitative is
fortunately non-avenue. The only thing that counts
is the top administrative prerogative: what one WANTS.
It doesn't matter if systemd is the best thing that
ever happened to humanity, if I don't want it on my
street then it can go screw :-)

On Sat, 16 Sep 2023 10:02:03 -0400, bad sector <forgetski@invalid.net> wrote:
> By a monopoly I mean control of Linux by virtue of its rather obvious
> ambitions which *to me* look like a challenge to the kernel, to
> Torvalds, and to everything that Linux means to me and many others.
> Simply put it seems to be cutting much too wide a swath and reminds me
> of the late Gen'l Prigozhin :-)))

It's no more of a monopoly than glibc. It's simply a very useful component that
simplifies resource management by making it much more consistent.

Regards, Dave Hodgins

Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> there are a lot of documentation, but there is nowhere to start. It
> really miss something to start and to follow until being able to
> master.

I like its wp article as an overview/ starting place.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemd

The man pages aren't much fun, but freedesktop has an organization
system. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/index.html

The wp article has a graphic of an alleged graphical systemd-manager and
there's a Poettering article about graphical systemadm, but those are
hard to find more about.

--
Mike Easter

On 16 Sep 2023 13:27:04 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>
> The way I'm using my computer today is not the way I used it 30 years
> ago. And Linux has been able to evolved with the new needs.
>

You are a total ignoramus, Mr. Carpentier.

Linux, as an OS, has not "evolved" over the past 30 years.

The only radical changes have been in the so-called "desktop" environment (DE)
that has been spearheaded by the IBM/RedHat endeavor known as freedesktop.org.

The definition of a "modern" Linux is entirely artificial and has been
introduced by IBM/RedHat solely to market their ridiculous DE initiative.

Sophisticated users of GNU/Linux do not require a DE. A DE is intended to mimic
Microsoft Windows and thus appeals only to the unsophisticated user.

In principle, there is nothing wrong with this, but freedesktop.org is introducing
features that now make it difficult or impossible to design and build a custom
GNU/Linux system.

You, Mr. Carpentier, have obviously never designed and built your own Linux
distro. You, Mr. Carpentier, are like a lot of (but by no means all) users
who just want an easy and free Linux implementation and have no clue about the
threats posed by freedesktop/systemd.

Do not forget, Mr. Carpentier, that GNU/Linux was created by sophisticated computer
users for the benefit of sophisticated computer users. Pandering to the masses is
entirely an invention of IBM/RedHat and all of their misguided adherents.

I thank the gods for FreeBSD which remains untainted by IBM/RedHat.

I also hope that the GNU project is able to complete their HURD operating system
which will certainly reject the imposed IBM/RedHat hegemony (but this is a long shot).

You, Mr. Carpentier, like most others, are merely parroting the hype about
systemd. But your knowledge of GNU/Linux is shallow and so are your opinions.

On 16 Sep 2023 13:15:24 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>
> At the start of Linux, there was no such thing as choice, there was only
> SysV. So, it was a monopoly of SysV which dictated de facto the way the
> kernel was build.
>

Totally and unequivocally false.

The early Linux distos merely adopted SysV because that's all that
their developers knew.

But SysV is as unnecessary as systemd or any other init system.

You fail to grasp this point, Mr. Carpentier, because you are an ignoramus
regarding the operation of the GNU/Linux operating system.

So, please, do not express these misleading falsehoods.

The Linux kernel is a fantastic creation that will allow many, many
possibilities for a competent user.

The reality is that the encroachment of systemd is now limiting those
possibilities and this represents a tremendous DISSERVICE to the FOSS
community,

Unfortunately, a total ignoramus like you, Mr. Carpentier, as well as
most others, cannot comprehend, let alone appreciate, the threat that
systemd poses.

Now return to your pre-packaged Linux distos, like Ubuntu, Arch, etc.,
that are made for ignoramuses.

On 16 Sep 2023 14:09:05 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>
> But
> the vast majority of users don't care about systemd. The vast majority
> of users don't care about xorg/wayland. The vast majority of users don"t
> care about lilo/grub. The vast majority of users don't know uefi is not
> bios.
>

The vast majority, then, like you Mr. Carpentier, are total ignoramuses.

Have you ever created your own Linux distro?

No, you have not. In fact, you CANNOT. You are an ignoramus.

But _I_ have.

However, since the encroachment of systemd and freedesktop my freedom in
this regard is seriously undermined.

For one thing, static device nodes, which is the superior methodology, are no
longer possible (aside from a GUI-less system).

But you, Mr. Carpentier, are a complete ignoramus with no knowledge of
operating systems or of Linux and therefor you could never realize this
egregious loss of freedom caused by systemd.

You, Mr. Carpentier, like a beaten lackey, can only speak for the popular
and commercial Linux distros.

But GNU and Linux were never conceived to support commercial interests. They
were conceived to support FOSS.

You, Mr. Carpentier, can only contribute to the degradation of GNU/Linux.

Nux Vomica wrote:
> GNU/Linux was created by sophisticated computer
> users for the benefit of sophisticated computer users. Pandering to the masses is
> entirely an invention of IBM/RedHat and all of their misguided adherents.

I don't agree w/ that POV.

L. Torvalds, the student, 'crafted' a 'makeshift' operating system based
on what he had learned from his exposure to Minix and Unix, and opened
the door for its evolution to others in his newsgroup.

R. Stallman tried to create an OS and associated s/w to scratch his
'free software' agenda with the GNU project.

GNU Linux has been evolving ever since in a great many directions which
differ from your own personal POV. Those directions extend from
embedded systems to super computers to 'simplified' user systems for
beginners and all kinds of things in between.

It is fine that there is also a niche for you and those who agree w/
you, as well as niches for others including the users who don't care
anything about how it works as long as it does what they want.

We use all kinds of devices every day for which the underlying
'technology' or physical principles such as relativity for GPS is poorly
understood by those users.

--
Mike Easter

Le 16-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
> On 16 Sep 2023 14:09:05 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>
>> But
>> the vast majority of users don't care about systemd. The vast majority
>> of users don't care about xorg/wayland. The vast majority of users don"t
>> care about lilo/grub. The vast majority of users don't know uefi is not
>> bios.
>>
>
> The vast majority, then, like you Mr. Carpentier, are total ignoramuses.

There is a time where you have to choose what you want. Either the
distros must take care of the users' will or they do what is best in
their opinion. You can't, at the same time, criticise the distro to not
take into account the users' will and say the users are ignorants so
their will are of no interest.

But, one of the reason there are a lot of distros is not all people
want to be an expert in informatics to use their computer. They just
want to send mail, have a chat with their grand-childs who are thousand
miles away. And for this, they don't want to take full CS course. And
they don't need to. And there is nothing wrong with it.

So, the vast majority of the users are ignorants, yes. So what? Their
computers work fine. They can do what they need with it. They have other
interests in life than computers. For them a computer is just a tool and
they don't need to know the internals of it to use it.

> Have you ever created your own Linux distro?

In fact, yes, I did. Based on Archlinux, it's not that difficult. When
you want to automate things, you need a default iso with a password set
for to be able to use ssh.

> No, you have not. In fact, you CANNOT. You are an ignoramus.

Read and learn (if you can).
====================================================================

#!/bin/bash
# To create my personal installer iso

# vars to be used later
# The directory with the the etc files
ETC="releng/airootfs/etc"
# The user to be able to log
USR="sca"
# and its password, no need to have difficult password: its purpose is only for the creation
PASSWD=$(openssl passwd -6 sca)

# First, I want a clean and up to date repo
rm -Rf releng
cp -r /usr/share/archiso/configs/releng/ .

# I'm french, so I want my locale to be French
echo "LANG=fr_FR.UTF-8" > $ETC/locale.conf
# And, most importantly, a full AZERTY keyboard
echo "KEYMAP=fr-latin9" > $ETC/vconsole.conf

# For a user non root to be able to log
# First the passwd file
echo "$USR:x:1000:1000::/home/$USR:/usr/bin/bash" >> $ETC/passwd
# Then the shadow file
echo "$USR:$PASSWD:14871::::::" >> $ETC/shadow
# Then the groups to be able to connect and act as root with sudo
echo "root:x:0:root" > $ETC/group
echo "adm:x:4:$USR" >> $ETC/group
echo "wheel:x:10:$USR" >> $ETC/group
echo "uucp:x:14:$USR" >> $ETC/group
echo "$USR:x:1000" >> $ETC/group
# And finally, I follow the doc, but I'm not so sure it's useful
echo "root:!*::root" > $ETC/gshadow
echo "$USR:!*::" >> $ETC/gshadow
# And after finally, a sudoers
echo "root ALL=(ALL) ALL" > $ETC/sudoers
echo "%wheel ALL=(ALL) NOPASSWD: ALL" >> $ETC/sudoers

# And now, the creation
sudo mkarchiso -v -w /tmp/archpero-tmp releng
sudo rm -Rf /tmp/archpero-tmp
sudo chown -R stef:stef out

====================================================================

> But _I_ have.

I don't believe you. You believe using gentoo is the same as installing
LFS. And I'm pretty sure you never go to the end of your install part.

> However, since the encroachment of systemd and freedesktop my freedom in
> this regard is seriously undermined.

It's not. Before it was SysV, you had no more freedom.

> For one thing, static device nodes, which is the superior methodology, are no
> longer possible (aside from a GUI-less system).

I know, you are stuck in the past and it was better before. But 20 years
ago, I remember at work, with Windows I don't remember which, probably
XP, when someone removed your mouse or your keyboard, you had no more
possibility than reboot. So I don't want your superior technology: it
belongs to the past and stays there.

Maybe it's your issue. You learned some things long time ago and you
are at the same time unable to learn anything knew and afraid of the
futur. But you have done the wrong choice long ago. You should have
learn cobol. And do nothing else than cobol. It doesn't evolved and you
wouldn't have more and more difficulties to find a work where knowledge
of the past is less and less valuable.

> But you, Mr. Carpentier, are a complete ignoramus with no knowledge of
> operating systems or of Linux and therefor you could never realize this
> egregious loss of freedom caused by systemd.

In fact, with systemd there is more freedom, because of it. They did
everything they can for it. With SysV, there was a monopoly and you had
to use it their way. When systemd came, it let you use your own SysV
scripts at the same time as the new script. Like that, you were able to
switch smoothly from SysV to systemd. And that's freedom. And it works
fine because when the Guix guys wanted to go further in the management of
their distro, they created shepherd and still used the part of systemd
they had no need/time to replace.

And that, unlike your claim, is freedom. For real. Unlike other init
system, systemd is aware of the others and let you use them when you
need. But to understand it, you should learn systemd and freedom.

> You, Mr. Carpentier, like a beaten lackey, can only speak for the popular
> and commercial Linux distros.

I'm speaking of guix since a few messages. It's not a popular and
commercial distro. Once again, you claim things you don't understand.

> But GNU and Linux were never conceived to support commercial interests. They
> were conceived to support FOSS.

For GNU, yes, for Linux, certainly not. You should learn history. Linux
was conceived as a hobby. And what Linus want about liberty is easy to
understand, he explained it: you can use Linux if you want, the only
thing he want is if you improve it, he can get your improvement for him.
It looks fair to him and I believe it is. He never wage war for FOOS
like Stallman do.

> You, Mr. Carpentier, can only contribute to the degradation of GNU/Linux.

I'm proud of your claim, because you consider any improvement as a
degradation, so what you mean is I'm going in the right direction even
if you are unable to understand it.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 17 Sep 2023 08:32:18 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

>
>> But _I_ have.
>
> I don't believe you. You believe using gentoo is the same as installing
> LFS. And I'm pretty sure you never go to the end of your install part.
>

My system is actually a hybrid of LFS and Gentoo.

LFS has an automated build called ALFS but the ALFS build does not allow
any customization. Gentoo allows package customization and so I use the
LFS boot scripts to initialize and then Gentoo to build the packages.

Read the LFS boot scripts (for non-systemd). They are quite simple.
For a stand-alone workstation it DOES NOT require 4 million lines of
code (i.e. systemd) to boot a system. I use only 50 loc -- and that
includes comments.

Most people do not realize how amazingly simple it is to boot a
Linux system. Neither systemd nor SysV is necessary.

Using systemd is like attaching a massive truck trailer to a sports car.

Check out KISS Linux:

https://kisslinux.org/

One man. One Linux. Simplicity in the flesh.

>
> I know, you are stuck in the past and it was better before. But 20 years
> ago, ... So I don't want your superior technology: it
> belongs to the past and stays there.
>

You'd better start using the abacus then.

The Von Neumann architecture goes back to 1945. Essentially, we are all
using 80-year-old technology.

The majority of the "modern" Linux book process is involved with constructing
the exact same /dev tree (over and over and over) that could be built statically.

Only apes create a new bed each and every night. The human being uses a "static" bed.

>
> I'm speaking of guix since a few messages.
>

This is your only valuable statement.

I decided to check out GUIX and I may try it out soon.

It seems to have a steep learning curve but it may be worth the investment
of time.