On 2023-09-16, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
>
> However, since the encroachment of systemd and freedesktop my freedom in
> this regard is seriously undermined.

Undermined in what way? You've explained that you're an elite "non-ignoramus"
who can use Linux without the "commercial" GUI. So be happy, you've got what
you want — apparently.

Me, I've got Linux Mint and I'm happy with it. What business is it of yours
what other people use and enjoy? The world could do with a lot fewer control
freaks.

--
Freedom. Use it or lose it.

On 9/17/23 8:08 AM, RonB wrote:
> On 2023-09-16, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>
>> However, since the encroachment of systemd and freedesktop my freedom in
>> this regard is seriously undermined.
>
> Undermined in what way? You've explained that you're an elite "non-ignoramus"
> who can use Linux without the "commercial" GUI. So be happy, you've got what
> you want — apparently.
>
> Me, I've got Linux Mint and I'm happy with it. What business is it of yours
> what other people use and enjoy? The world could do with a lot fewer control
> freaks.

--
Freedom. Use it or lose it.

No contest, but just *using* was never enough!

--
Sundays are AvLinux days: Debian GNU/Linux 11 (bullseye),
Kernel=6.4.12-1-liquorix-amd64 on x86_64,DM=Unknown,
DE=XFCE, ST=x11,grub2, GPT, BIOS-boot
https://imgur.com/4QltVrI.png https://imgur.com/RsbswMP.png

On 9/17/23 7:56 AM, Nux Vomica wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2023 08:32:18 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>
>>> But _I_ have.
>>
>> I don't believe you. You believe using gentoo is the same as installing
>> LFS. And I'm pretty sure you never go to the end of your install part.
>>
>
> My system is actually a hybrid of LFS and Gentoo.
>
> LFS has an automated build called ALFS but the ALFS build does not allow
> any customization. Gentoo allows package customization and so I use the
> LFS boot scripts to initialize and then Gentoo to build the packages.
>
> Read the LFS boot scripts (for non-systemd). They are quite simple.
> For a stand-alone workstation it DOES NOT require 4 million lines of
> code (i.e. systemd) to boot a system. I use only 50 loc -- and that
> includes comments.
>
> Most people do not realize how amazingly simple it is to boot a
> Linux system. Neither systemd nor SysV is necessary.

That's why it needs to be exterminated, you cannot enslave an entire
civilisation if the IT neomachinery is so simple that within a few years
even gradeschool students can complile kernels with one hand! That's how
hot-rods came to be a thorn that took 50 years to exterminate by
burrying in mountains of red tape that cleared the way for unrepairable
throwaway cars and eventual 'technology rental' instead of ownership!

I just done my first gentoo install BTW :-)

--
Sabre on the wall
Echo down the hall
Our legion fears and victories:
"Freedom's test
Is ever next
Therefore keep me clear
To serve, not rust
In hands I trust
To rather fall than feel
The sorry hollow
Of void tomorrow
Should man to but God kneel!"

On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 10:02:14 -0400, bad sector wrote:

>
> That's why it needs to be exterminated, you cannot enslave an entire
> civilisation if the IT neomachinery is so simple that within a few years
> even gradeschool students can complile kernels with one hand!
>

Exactly.

How soon before we see "telemetryd" or "keystrokelogd" or "scanforchildpornd"
services appear on the average Linux distro?

Furthermore, it would be very easy to make such tethering and
enforcement services absolutely mandatory so that the system
would not boot without them.

I believe that Ubuntu already does this.

After all, the only way to convert Windows users to Linux is to make
Linux into Windows.

>
> I just done my first gentoo install BTW :-)
>

Excellent.

Here is a recommended CFLAGS variable to put in your make.conf:

CFLAGS="-O2 -pipe -march=native -malign-data=cacheline -floop-interchange -floop-strip-mine \
-floop-block -fno-stack-protector -mindirect-branch=keep -mfunction-return=keep \
-mharden-sls=none -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE

This will prevent all the idiotic "security" features that have obsessed the
Linux distro developers. (According to them, like Chicken Little, the sky is
falling.)

Also, be sure to build Python with the following option to improve performance
by 15-30%:

-fno-semantic-interposition

Also, set the make.conf CPU_FLAGS_X86 variable to the output of cpuid2cpuflags.

Le 17-09-2023, Nux Vomica <nv@linux.rocks> a écrit :
> On 17 Sep 2023 08:32:18 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>>
>>> But _I_ have.
>>
>> I don't believe you. You believe using gentoo is the same as
>> installing LFS. And I'm pretty sure you never go to the end of your
>> install part.
>>
>
> My system is actually a hybrid of LFS and Gentoo.

It's not a proof that you created your own distro. It's a proof you
heard about another distro. But I have strong difficulties to believe
you are using it.

> LFS has an automated build called ALFS but the ALFS build does not
> allow any customization.

LFS is more a manual than a real distro. The only reason why you can't
customize it is because you don't understand it. And for that point I
really can believe it.

> Read the LFS boot scripts (for non-systemd).

No. LFS for non-systemd is for SysV. It's crap, it belongs to the past
and I have no time to lose with it. I can understand some arguments
explaining why systemd is bloated, but saying systemd is bloated *and*
SysV is simple is nonsense.

> They are quite simple. For a stand-alone workstation it DOES NOT
> require 4 million lines of code (i.e. systemd) to boot a system. I
> use only 50 loc -- and that includes comments.

Yes, I understood, if you need a USB stick, you have to put it in the
slot of your computer before booting it. If you forget, you reboot. I
didn't use my computer this way for a reason. And anyone telling me it's
the right and only way to use a computer is just a caveman whose
argument is useless.

> Most people do not realize how amazingly simple it is to boot a Linux
> system.

Yes, if you want to boot it every five minutes, it's easy, but it's a
lost of time. There are better way, I have no time to go back 30 years
in time.

> Neither systemd nor SysV is necessary.

Yes, but once it's booted knowing what's running on it and why, systemd
is very valuable, SysV is useless, like alternatives to systemd. They
are simple because they do nothing and they don't provide the good
things that come with systemd.

> Using systemd is like attaching a massive truck trailer to a sports
> car.

That's what I heard from the guys against systemd, but when I look at my
computer, I can see by myself it's just false.

> Check out KISS Linux:
>
> https://kisslinux.org/

So, yes, it's great for him. He do what he want. Where is the choice? As
he does it for himself, I have nothing against him for his choices. He
proves one can still have freedom. Unlike what you said.

But if you read, he has no more X11, and you say X11 is good and wayland
is bad. Why do you say he's right when the major distros are wrong to do
the same choice?

You say you use fvwm, he has only sway. So, where is the choice?

Once again, I have nothing against his choices for himself. I don't want
to do the same choices, so I wont follow his choices. And that's
freedom. But there is very less freedom in his distribution than in the
major distros. Why do you like his lack of freedom when you despise the
major distros lack of freedom.

>> I know, you are stuck in the past and it was better before. But 20
>> years ago, ... So I don't want your superior technology: it belongs
>> to the past and stays there.
>>
>
> You'd better start using the abacus then.

You mean you ideal year is 20 years after the invention of the abacus?

> The Von Neumann architecture goes back to 1945. Essentially, we are
> all using 80-year-old technology.

No. Nobody is using floppy disk or perforated cards anymore. Except
maybe you. The principles and the science beyond them are the same. The
technology is not.

> The majority of the "modern" Linux book process is involved with
> constructing the exact same /dev tree (over and over and over) that
> could be built statically.

And that's the most impressive thing behind Linux. It was so well
designed it has managed to evolved to what it is today. But it doesn't
mean it's the same thing and the same way to use it.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Dan Purgert <dan@djph.net> writes:

> ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.]
> On 2023-09-08, Big Al wrote:
>> On 9/8/23 08:18, this is what Henry Crun wrote:
>>>
>>> I am gradually moving laptop...netbook...eventully desktop from Ub.
>>> to MX. Very smooth learning curve, some advantages, some
>>> disadvantages. On Ubuntu I have been running for about  year with no
>>> snap or flatpak. If only I could avoid the horror that is systemd. We
>>> are supposed to have choice, but to choose 'no systemd' immediately
>>> implies 'not Ubuntu' Pity 'bout that.
>>>
>> Can you explain the issue with systemd? I think Linux Mint uses it
>> and I haven't seen any apparent issues.
>
> It's one of those things that, if it's all you've used will probably not
> be all that easy to grasp (for example, my take with Pulse Audio was
> similar).
>
> Personally, I'm not much a fan of their binary logging, or how it can
> get in the way of applications like screen or tmux (or even nohup). The
> general pervasiveness and expansion of "systemd-anotherthingd" doesn't
> really instill confidence either.

All logging is binary logging. How do you think data is represented in
memory or stored on disk?

It's not as if plain text (ASCII) logfiles are printed with type on a
gutenberg press or something. They're binary data in a certain format.

It's true that journald uses a different format for its native logfiles,
and it requires special tools to read those files. However, plain ASCII
text files require special tools to read as well, it's just that we're
used to those tools and they have a long history in unix.

That's not even a problem, because it's very easy to use rsyslog or
syslog-ng to collect logs and output them to local plain text
logfiles. In fact, some distros have this setup by default. Besides
that, anybody doing this professionally is sending syslog to a remote,
central logserver or log collector.

>
> It's either going to turn out to be one of those things that in 10 years
> we'll collectively "forget" was a problem, either because there's a
> schism in the general Linux community that's too great to bridge; or
> because something soured distro decision makers against it enough that
> they've moved on.

It never really was a problem. Some people don't like systemd, and
that's fine. Having some variety in unix and Linux, and in unix and
linux users is a great thing IMO. I think the systemd "issue" has been
blown out of proportion by some people. In fact, I can't believe we're
still talking about it.

My career is currently centered around logging and logs. I hear
absolutely zero about any supposed problems with systemd/journald. It's
not a topic of conversation, it's never mentioned at all, and it's
just. not. an. issue.

"David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> writes:

>
> Learning how to use systemd and all of it's components is a large learning curve.
> So was learning how to minimize cyclic dependencies with initd start up scripts.

SysV init scripts were a puked-up cat's hairball of non-uniform shell
scripts and a bunch of symlinks. Good riddance! :-)

On 9/17/23 10:38, Nux Vomica wrote:
> On Sun, 17 Sep 2023 10:02:14 -0400, bad sector wrote:
>
>> That's why it needs to be exterminated, you cannot enslave an entire
>> civilisation if the IT neomachinery is so simple that within a few years
>> even gradeschool students can complile kernels with one hand!
>
> Exactly.
>
> How soon before we see "telemetryd" or "keystrokelogd" or "scanforchildpornd"
> services appear on the average Linux distro?
>
> Furthermore, it would be very easy to make such tethering and
> enforcement services absolutely mandatory so that the system
> would not boot without them.
>
> I believe that Ubuntu already does this.
>
> After all, the only way to convert Windows users to Linux is to make
> Linux into Windows.

EEE:

Embrace
Join, infiltrate, place 5th coulmns

Expand
Make it as big and as complicated as possible
with as few 'other' people in control as possible

Exterminate
Denature it to the point of becoming unsuitable for
its previous vocation and unrecognizable

>> I just done my first gentoo install BTW :-)
>
> Excellent.
>
> Here is a recommended CFLAGS variable to put in your make.conf:
>
> CFLAGS="-O2 -pipe -march=native -malign-data=cacheline -floop-interchange -floop-strip-mine \
> -floop-block -fno-stack-protector -mindirect-branch=keep -mfunction-return=keep \
> -mharden-sls=none -U_FORTIFY_SOURCE
>
> This will prevent all the idiotic "security" features that have obsessed the
> Linux distro developers. (According to them, like Chicken Little, the sky is
> falling.)
>
> Also, be sure to build Python with the following option to improve performance
> by 15-30%:
>
> -fno-semantic-interposition
>
> Also, set the make.conf CPU_FLAGS_X86 variable to the output of cpuid2cpuflags.

You're going too fast, saved for notes though, but so far I'm just
kicking the tires :-)