Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.

--
Pete

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>

IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>>
>
> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
>

Carl Claunch’s Blog http://rescue1130.blogspot.com has had a few posts
about his attempts to fix an IBM 1053 (same mechanism as a selectric) used
as an 1130 console. I never realized there was so much to those things.

--
Pete

> Now even terminal emulators are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.

$deity forbid they actually have to _see_ a keyboard, it might make
them clinically depressed. Then they'd have to get an emotional
support shark, or something.

De

(Ok, yes, some snark here.)

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,

Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

On 2023-10-09, Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>
> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.

The university had 2741s and TTYs (mostly model 33, but the occasional
35 and even a few 37s). They did have a few 2260s (wow, 12x80 screen!).

Once out in the real world, it was all cards. No terminals of any sort
for several years, then Univac's Uniscope 100 and 200 terminals (block
mode, synchronous, polled protocol - programming was a nightmare).
Our foray into terminal emulators consisted of an ISA-bus card with
a synchronous port, plus software that emulated the Uniscope on an
MS-DOS box. I envied those DEC shops and their character-mode
asynchronous terminals - they were so simple by comparison.
I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
(and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
game at all was a strong incentive.

As for terminal emulators, I always have at least one open,
on both Linux and Windows boxes. Call me strange, but I find
that most of the time a command-line interface is so much simpler
than that gooey stuff, and I can do things in a dozen keystrokes
while J. Random Luser spends five minutes pointing and clicking
and dragging and dropp... oh damn, where did I drop that thing...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> >> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> >> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
> >> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
> >> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
> >> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
> >> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
> >>
> >
> > IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
> >
>
> Carl Claunch's Blog http://rescue1130.blogspot.com has had a few posts
> about his attempts to fix an IBM 1053 (same mechanism as a selectric) used
> as an 1130 console. I never realized there was so much to those things.
>

Heck, yeah. I spent a whole on-call night shift diagnosing a broken
keyboard spring through its freaky hardware logic effects. Dang
mechanical faults, I should have known b*etter.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> game at all was a strong incentive.

[...]

Oh my, Zork* was ~difficult~. I still try to solve it now when I'm
really bored. It is very dark here, you may be eaten by a grue...

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe <https://youtu.be/_kqytf31a8E>

My pet rock Gordon just is.

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>

yes

--
Pete

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-10-09, Sn!pe <snipeco.2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>> Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>>> seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>>> terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>>> are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>>
>> IBM Selectric, then KSR33; I used to fix those mofos.
>
> The university had 2741s and TTYs (mostly model 33, but the occasional
> 35 and even a few 37s). They did have a few 2260s (wow, 12x80 screen!).
>
> Once out in the real world, it was all cards. No terminals of any sort
> for several years, then Univac's Uniscope 100 and 200 terminals (block
> mode, synchronous, polled protocol - programming was a nightmare).
> Our foray into terminal emulators consisted of an ISA-bus card with
> a synchronous port, plus software that emulated the Uniscope on an
> MS-DOS box. I envied those DEC shops and their character-mode
> asynchronous terminals - they were so simple by comparison.
> I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> game at all was a strong incentive.
>
> As for terminal emulators, I always have at least one open,
> on both Linux and Windows boxes. Call me strange, but I find
> that most of the time a command-line interface is so much simpler
> than that gooey stuff, and I can do things in a dozen keystrokes
> while J. Random Luser spends five minutes pointing and clicking
> and dragging and dropp... oh damn, where did I drop that thing...
>

I do too. I usually have at least three open for three working directories,
and then maybe another for a specific task. I use a GUI editor (nedit) but
start instances of it it as needed as as separate tasks from the
appropriate command-line.

--
Pete

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,

The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
PASCAL. About 1987-89.

I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
--
Jim

drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) writes:

> > Now even terminal emulators are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.
>
> $deity forbid they actually have to _see_ a keyboard, it might make
> them clinically depressed. Then they'd have to get an emotional
> support shark, or something.
>
> De
>
> (Ok, yes, some snark here.)

A bizarre complaint to make at a time when there's a general obsession
with keyboards of all sorts. Mechanical keyboards, custom keyboard
layouts, individually lubricating key switches... The Kids These Days
are nuts for keyboards. Hell, it's a real pain to try and source an
*actual* video terminal with the keyboard still attached, because old
keyboards (run through an adapter) are a hot commodity these days!

Uh, err, I mean, damn those snowflake millennials, with their purple
hair and their rap music, and their dastardly invention of the Graphical
User Interface!

john

On 2023-10-09, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>
> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.

In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> On 2023-10-09, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>
>> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
>> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>>
>> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
>> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
>
> In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
> One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?
>

We had amber VT-220s on our /730. Great terminals.

--
Pete

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
>seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
>terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
>are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.

TTY (ASR-33 with reader/punch, 110 baud), LA-120 (Decwriter, 132 column, 300 baud)
ADM-3A (1200 baud), various VT100 clones (9600 baud), Burroughs block mode
stations such as TD700, TD830, ET1100, MT983 and T27. I still have a couple
of real T27's I use with my burroughs emulator. NCD X terminals (NCD16
monochrome and NCD17c color) until PC-based linux systems replaced all my
unix boxes.

We had Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals where I went to grad school. Those
were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
actually got an H19 tucked away now.

For many years starting in about 1980 I had a TEC as my home
terminal. Another outstanding design; I wish I still had it. I think
it was a Model 70 as shown in this ad, but I'm not sure.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/224103237620

Once I had a workstation with a serial port and kermit, there really
wasn't any reason to have a physical terminal any more...

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 20:05:16 +0100
Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700
> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
> > has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
> > punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
Fax machines? modems?

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 21:07:01 +0100
snipeco.2@gmail.com (Sn!pe) wrote:

> Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > I did, however, manage to port the original 350-point Adventure
> > (and later, Zork, once I got my hands on the source code) to our
> > Univac 90/30. It was a lot of work, but being able to lay the
> > game at all was a strong incentive.
>
Attack Bear
> [...]
>
> Oh my, Zork* was ~difficult~. I still try to solve it now when I'm
> really bored. It is very dark here, you may be eaten by a grue...
>
I got stuck on the Carousel for ages and ages. And my hotair balloon was
working fine, I just couldn't get to the next location.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Mon, 09 Oct 2023 18:29:27 -0600
Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

> We had Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals where I went to grad school. Those
> were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
> actually got an H19 tucked away now.
>
> For many years starting in about 1980 I had a TEC as my home
> terminal. Another outstanding design; I wish I still had it. I think
> it was a Model 70 as shown in this ad, but I'm not sure.
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/224103237620
>
> Once I had a workstation with a serial port and kermit, there really
> wasn't any reason to have a physical terminal any more...
>
IBM shop; v expensive IRMA board, and strange key assignments.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On Mon, 09 Oct 2023 23:29:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs
<cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>On 2023-10-09, D.J <chucktheouch@gmnol.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Oct 2023 11:23:12 -0700, Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
>>> has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
>>> punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
>>
>> The terminals I used at university were Dec VT-102 vacuum tube/valve
>> terminals we used with a DEC VAX 11/730 and wrote our homework in VAX
>> PASCAL. About 1987-89.
>>
>> I used an amber terminal somewhere back then, but I don't remember
>> where. I think it was an Ampex. No idea on the model number.
>
>In one place I worked, we had two Qume QVT-102 terminals.
>One was green, the other amber. Remember the term "ergonomics"?

Yeah, the split keyboards. One half for each hand. My hands refused to
use them.
--
Jim

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.

BD-R is still cheaper than anything else for archival purposes...or is it?

I was about to assert that it was. The last spindle of 50 BD-Rs I bought
cost me $32.46, which works out to about 2.6¢/GB. The cheapest 8-TB
external hard drive up on Amazon right now (https://amzn.to/45ptmwj) is
about $160, or 2.0¢/GB.

Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.

--
_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

On Tue, 10 Oct 2023 15:45:08 GMT
scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> wrote:
> > Probably also the birth and death of floppy discs, QIC cartridge
> > tapes, optical discs and of course bubble memory.
>
> BD-R is still cheaper than anything else for archival purposes...or is it?
>
> I was about to assert that it was. The last spindle of 50 BD-Rs I bought
> cost me $32.46, which works out to about 2.6¢/GB. The cheapest 8-TB
> external hard drive up on Amazon right now (https://amzn.to/45ptmwj) is
> about $160, or 2.0¢/GB.
>
> Then again, I have some 12-13 TB to back up and multiple schemes in place to
> handle it (BD-R for things like media files, cloud storage (via Duplicity)
> for things like documents). This way, everything is backed up off-site.
> Doing the same with hard drives would require either a second server offsite
> to receive copies via rsync or hauling drives back and forth.
>
I'd imagine I have <2M of text that I (and probably no-one else) cares
about; a number of photos from wayback when 1M was a stupidly large number
of pixels per photo (but again only immediate family might take an
interest in) - say 100M, and erm no pirate DVDs or anything else.
I have a 500M hard drive from yesteryear that probably has my valuable
stuff + various install images of outofdate software etc. Still space
galore on it. I did used to backup religiously as a developer, but no-one
cares now about DOS or even 32bit apps. Why worry?
--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
: Looking at some recent stuff on Bitsavers I just realized that my career
: has witnessed the birth and death of video terminals. I started in the
: punched-card era, but my first terminals were hardcopy: IBM 2741, TTY,
: Execuport, etc. Video terminals were a huge advance, and, for a while it
: seemed like there were scores of manufacturers. Then PCs came along, and
: terminal emulators replaced real terminals. Now even terminal emulators
: are the refuge of a few die-hards like me.

At the risk of starting a definition war, terminals survive but it's now
spelled "thin client."

On 2023-10-10, sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org
<sarr.blumson@alum.dartmouth.org> wrote:

> At the risk of starting a definition war, terminals survive
> but it's now spelled "thin client."

"There is no cloud. It's just someone else's computer."

Gotta get me one of those T-shirts...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>

On 2023-10-10, Joe Pfeiffer <pfeiffer@cs.nmsu.edu> wrote:

> We had Heath/Zenith Z19 terminals where I went to grad school. Those
> were great -- they just plain worked, and were bulletproof. I've
> actually got an H19 tucked away now.

So do I. Now all I have to do is restore the boot ROM in the
IMSAI that it was hooked to, and I'll have a working CP/M machine,
complete with 8-inch floppies.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | They offer a huge range of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | world-class vulnerabilities
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | that only Microsoft can provide.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- druck <news@druck.org.uk>