On 2023-10-23 14:50, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>> On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>>
>>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> Define "better"... ;-)
>
> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.

xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
remember to turn off, as I do not want it).

Tabs is clearly a fancy UI thing. :-)

Less memory? I have no idea. But considering that xterm uses little
enough memory that it don't even move the needle on my memory total, it
can't really make much of a difference with urvxt.

>> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
>
> Nope, no menus and it lacks functionality that's in xterm, it
> doesn't do Tectronix 4014 emulation only vt102.

I have to admit - I never use the Tektronix mode. :-)

>> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
>
> I'm sure it does.

That, plus probably a lot of work compared to xterm, to get the keyboard
to send the right data is probably what for me would be the main reasons
not to use it.

But it always depends on what one needs...

Johnny

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:05:04 +0200
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

> xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
> remember to turn off, as I do not want it).

Ah it couldn't when I started to use urxvt. I long since
standardised on Unicode (UTF-8 generally) because everything else is just a
mess - but then at a PPOE I was the person everyone came to with
internationalisation issues - pushing everything but Unicode to the edges
was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.

> That, plus probably a lot of work compared to xterm, to get the keyboard
> to send the right data is probably what for me would be the main reasons
> not to use it.

Not much - I have this in Xdefaults to pick up the Euro symbol that
wasn't happening by default, but it may well no longer be necessary.

urxvt*keysym.M-4: €

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> writes:
>On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200
>Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> On 2023-10-23 10:09, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>> > On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 18:13:47 -0000 (UTC)
>> > Thomas Koenig <tkoenig@netcologne.de> wrote:
>> >
>> >> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>> >
>> > Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> Define "better"... ;-)
>
> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.

My version of xterm supports UTF-8.

I'd rather have two independent xterm windows than tabs.

xterm's memory usage is de minimus.

> was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
> I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
> labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.

Ah, so everything windoze touches. :(

De

On 2023-10-23 16:59, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 16:05:04 +0200
> Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>
>> xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
>> remember to turn off, as I do not want it).
>
> Ah it couldn't when I started to use urxvt. I long since
> standardised on Unicode (UTF-8 generally) because everything else is just a
> mess - but then at a PPOE I was the person everyone came to with
> internationalisation issues - pushing everything but Unicode to the edges
> was always an essential first step for anything text encoding related. Then
> I just had to cope with places that sent stuff in Win-* encodings wrongly
> labelled as the not quite equivalent ISO-8859-* encodings.

Don't know how long xterm have had Unicode support, and I don't know
when you switched. But it's definitely been around in xterm way longer
than I care to remember now.

Personally I use xterm a lot in combination with connecting to old DEC
systems, which all use DEC MCS. Close enough to Latin-1 to work just
fine like that, but everything goes totally shit and bonkers if I have
UTF-8.

>> That, plus probably a lot of work compared to xterm, to get the keyboard
>> to send the right data is probably what for me would be the main reasons
>> not to use it.
>
> Not much - I have this in Xdefaults to pick up the Euro symbol that
> wasn't happening by default, but it may well no longer be necessary.
>
> urxvt*keysym.M-4: €

Well, I don't want the Euro, but I do want all my numeric keypad keys
sending nice escape sequences like a VT100, and so on. And that's where
things can get exciting. But xterm can be told to do the right thing...
But it's obscure. Didn't see any of that in the documentation for urxvt.
So no good for such needs.

Johnny

On Tue, 24 Oct 2023 12:25:10 +0200
Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:

> Don't know how long xterm have had Unicode support, and I don't know
> when you switched. But it's definitely been around in xterm way longer
> than I care to remember now.

It's been a very long time - no idea how long.

> Personally I use xterm a lot in combination with connecting to old DEC
> systems, which all use DEC MCS. Close enough to Latin-1 to work just

Ah yes that makes a lot of difference - as always horses for
courses.

--
Steve O'Hara-Smith
Odds and Ends at http://www.sohara.org/
Host: Beautiful Theory meet Inconvenient Fact
Obit: Beautiful Theory died today of factual inconsistency

Johnny Billquist wrote:

> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>
>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>
>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>
>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>
> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.

Various exploits shown at DEFCON 31 regarding escape sequences in term
programs on windows/macOS/linux/BSD

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:
>Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>
>>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>
>>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>>
>>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>
>> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
>> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
>
>Various exploits shown at DEFCON 31 regarding escape sequences in term
>programs on windows/macOS/linux/BSD

xterm escape sequences have been known vectors for decades.

On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:09:31 +0200 Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> wrote:
>> And I also bet [urxvt's] VT100 emulation have bugs.

On 10/23/2023 5:50 AM, Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
> I'm sure it does.

When even DEC's own implementations of the protocol had variations, the
"copycat" implementations would have had to decide which quirks to copy
in their emulations ...

Johnny Billquist <bqt@softjar.se> writes:

>> Unicode, tabs and also less memory use than xterm.

>xterm definitely can do Unicode (one of the things I always have to
>remember to turn off, as I do not want it).

NOT having Unicode is a clear plus...

--
A host is a host from coast to coast...............wb8foz@panix.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close..........................
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433

Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> writes:
>>Johnny Billquist wrote:
>>
>>> Ahem A Rivet's Shot wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thomas Koenig wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> xterm ist not a terminal emulator?
>>>>
>>>> Yes but urxvt is a better one.
>>>
>>> I bet urxvt looks fancier, have snassy menus, and a ton of functions.
>>> And I also bet it's VT100 emulation have bugs.
>>
>>Various exploits shown at DEFCON 31 regarding escape sequences in term
>>programs on windows/macOS/linux/BSD

> xterm escape sequences have been known vectors for decades.

Ah... the old "flash" program and knowing that "esc K 1 B 0" will make
a VT100 lock up and go BLEEEEEEEEE!!!!! forever.

--
David Griffith
dave@661.org