Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.

1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
3- Greek }
4- Dutch } -> Chinese
5- Estonian}
6- Romanian -> Turkish

Please feel free to add to the list.

On 12/04/2024 09:21, occam wrote:
> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>
> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> 3- Greek }
> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
> 5- Estonian}
> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>
> Please feel free to add to the list.

English -> Double Dutch?

--
Phil B

On 2024-04-12 08:21:05 +0000, occam said:

> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>
> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> 3- Greek }
> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
> 5- Estonian}
> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>
> Please feel free to add to the list.

Lots of examples of different languages at
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 12 Apr 2024, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote

> On 2024-04-12 08:21:05 +0000, occam said:
>
>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2),
>> where language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult
>> to comprehend.
>>
>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>> 3- Greek }
>> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
>> 5- Estonian}
>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>
>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>
> Lots of examples of different languages at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me

The one I've used is "You're talking Swahili..." It' doesn't appear to
be in the Wikipedia list, but I have no idea where I picked it up.

On 12/04/2024 10:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-04-12 08:21:05 +0000, occam said:
>
>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2),  where
>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to
>> comprehend.
>>
>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>> 3- Greek   }
>> 4- Dutch   }   -> Chinese
>> 5- Estonian}
>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>
>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>
> Lots of examples of different languages at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me
>

Thanks. I should have known wiki would have a collection.

Interestingly Mandarin (mainland Chinese) is the only one that does not
refer to other cultures/languages but to birds (and Martians)?

One up for political correctness for the Chinese.

On 2024-04-12, occam wrote:

> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>
> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> 3- Greek }
> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
> 5- Estonian}
> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>
> Please feel free to add to the list.

French -> Hebrew "C'est de l'hébreu!"

I like the "flowcharts" that show the connections.

Here's one I just found, but I've seen bigger versions.

<https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/6x7c8k/various_languages_equivalent_of_its_all_greek_to/>

--
A heretic is someone who shares ALMOST all your beliefs.
Kill him. ---Ivan Stang

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> Lots of examples of different languages at
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me

The Danish expression "en by i Rusland" (a town in Russia) is a general
expression about something that you don't understand or which will never
happen. The two other examples are spot on.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

occam wrote:

> On 12/04/2024 10:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-04-12 08:21:05 +0000, occam said:
>>
>>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2),  where
>>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to
>>> comprehend.
>>>
>>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>>> 3- Greek   }
>>> 4- Dutch   }   -> Chinese
>>> 5- Estonian}
>>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>>
>>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>>
>> Lots of examples of different languages at
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me
>>

> Thanks. I should have known wiki would have a collection.

> Interestingly Mandarin (mainland Chinese) is the only one that does not
> refer to other cultures/languages but to birds (and Martians)?

Also Cantonese, Korean, Indonesian, and Malay.

One Turkish version was the reverse of the ones in other
languages: "I am French to the topic."

My favorites were the ones in Esperanto and Lojban.

--
Jerry Friedman

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>
> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> 3- Greek }
> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese

Never heard or seen that one, probably a misunderstanding,,
based on the existence of the book:
Peter Ho, Dat is Chinees voor mij- Zin en onzin over China,
<https://www.singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-geus/boek/dat-is-chinees-voor-mij/>
(sense and nonsense about China)
It is a book explaining China and Chinese culture.

Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
(so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.

Best translated into English as 'gibberish', or 'gobbledygook',

Jan

> 5- Estonian}
> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>
> Please feel free to add to the list.

(subtracted from)

On 12/04/2024 15:57, jerryfriedman wrote:
> occam wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/2024 10:46, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-04-12 08:21:05 +0000, occam said:
>>>
>>>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2),  where
>>>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to
>>>> comprehend.
>>>>
>>>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>>>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>>>> 3- Greek   }
>>>> 4- Dutch   }   -> Chinese
>>>> 5- Estonian}
>>>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>>>
>>>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>>>
>>> Lots of examples of different languages at
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_to_me
>>>
>
>> Thanks. I should have known wiki would have a collection.
>
>> Interestingly Mandarin (mainland Chinese) is the only one that does not
>> refer to other cultures/languages  but to birds (and Martians)?
>
> Also Cantonese, Korean, Indonesian, and Malay.
>
> One Turkish version was the reverse of the ones in other
> languages: "I am French to the topic."
>
> My favorites were the ones in Esperanto and Lojban.
>

Yes, the Esperanto one has the element of "the pot calling the kettle
black".

The (second) Turkish expression ('Anladıysam Arap olayım.') is
definitely racist. It is essentially saying "if I understand this, I'm a
n*gger." (Arap is used to mean a black person.)

On 2024-04-12 14:09:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:

> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>>
>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>> 3- Greek }
>> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
>
> Never heard or seen that one, probably a misunderstanding,,
> based on the existence of the book:
> Peter Ho, Dat is Chinees voor mij- Zin en onzin over China,
> <https://www.singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-geus/boek/dat-is-chinees-voor-mij/>
> (sense and nonsense about China)
> It is a book explaining China and Chinese culture.
>
> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.

I have the idea that Welsh, Waals/Wallon, Vlach, Welschland and others
are all cognate and come from a word meaning "foreign". The Walloons do
call themselves Wallons (ones I know do, anyway), but the Welsh for
Welsh (Cymraeg) is nothing like "Welsh".
>
> Best translated into English as 'gibberish', or 'gobbledygook',
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>> 5- Estonian}
>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>
>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>
> (subtracted from)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 37 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 12-Apr-24 15:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.

"Koeterwaals" put me in mind of "caterwaul" (spellings are many and
various).

Chaucer used it in the Wife of Bath's Prologue.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet wrote:

>> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
>> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
>> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
>> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
>> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
>
> "Koeterwaals" put me in mind of "caterwaul" (spellings are many and
> various).

Danish has "kaudervælsk", and ODS (dictionary of the Danish language
until 1950) explains it as a German word "Kauderwelsch" where "kauder"
may come from "kaudern": do business, usure (? what an usurer does),
haggle - used about the foreign or mixed language that foreign peddlers
would use. "-vælsk" means "foreign" with a negative connotation.

--
Bertel
Kolt, Denmark

Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:

> Sam Plusnet wrote:

>>> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
>>> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
>>> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
>>> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
>>> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
>>
>> "Koeterwaals" put me in mind of "caterwaul" (spellings are many and
>> various).

> Danish has "kaudervælsk", and ODS (dictionary of the Danish language
> until 1950) explains it as a German word "Kauderwelsch" where "kauder"
> may come from "kaudern": do business, usure (? what an usurer does),
> haggle - used about the foreign or mixed language that foreign peddlers
> would use. "-vælsk" means "foreign" with a negative connotation.

There's no English verb corresponding to "usurer". You have to
say "practice usury", "lend money at interest", or some such.

--
Jerry Friedman

Op 12/04/2024 om 16:09 schreef J. J. Lodder:
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>>
>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>> 3- Greek }
>> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
>
> Never heard or seen that one, probably a misunderstanding,,

Normal usage down here (B-vl).

> based on the existence of the book:
> Peter Ho, Dat is Chinees voor mij- Zin en onzin over China,
> <https://www.singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-geus/boek/dat-is-chinees-voor-mij/>
> (sense and nonsense about China)
> It is a book explaining China and Chinese culture.
>
> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.

Not used here (known though).

> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
>
> Best translated into English as 'gibberish', or 'gobbledygook',

So it doesn't fit in the bi-language list here.

--
guido wugi

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:

> On 12-Apr-24 15:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
> > From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> > the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> > (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> > It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
>
> "Koeterwaals" put me in mind of "caterwaul" (spellings are many and
> various).
>
> Chaucer used it in the Wife of Bath's Prologue.

Yes, thought of that, but it seems to be completely unrelated.
The 'cater' part may be from Middle Dutch 'kater', (E. Tomcat)
with the 'waul' imitative,

Jan

Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2024-04-12 14:09:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
>
> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >
> >> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> >> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
> >>
> >> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> >> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> >> 3- Greek }
> >> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
> >
> > Never heard or seen that one, probably a misunderstanding,,
> > based on the existence of the book:
> > Peter Ho, Dat is Chinees voor mij- Zin en onzin over China,
> > <https://www.singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-geus/boek/dat-is-chinees-voor-mij/>
> > (sense and nonsense about China)
> > It is a book explaining China and Chinese culture.
> >
> > Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
> > From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> > the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> > (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> > It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
>
> I have the idea that Welsh, Waals/Wallon, Vlach, Welschland and others
> are all cognate and come from a word meaning "foreign".

Yes, same root for all.
Applies to Romance or Celtic languages spoken by others.

> The Walloons do
> call themselves Wallons (ones I know do, anyway), but the Welsh for
> Welsh (Cymraeg) is nothing like "Welsh".

You remind me of a exchange I heard long ago:
Englishman: Why do you call yourself Dutch?
Dutchman: We don't, you do!

Jan

jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>
> > Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
> >>> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
> >>> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> >>> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> >>> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> >>> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
> >>
> >> "Koeterwaals" put me in mind of "caterwaul" (spellings are many and
> >> various).
>
> > Danish has "kaudervælsk", and ODS (dictionary of the Danish language
> > until 1950) explains it as a German word "Kauderwelsch" where "kauder"
> > may come from "kaudern": do business, usure (? what an usurer does),
> > haggle - used about the foreign or mixed language that foreign peddlers
> > would use. "-vælsk" means "foreign" with a negative connotation.
>
> There's no English verb corresponding to "usurer". You have to
> say "practice usury", "lend money at interest", or some such.

"Loan Shark", for bad American ones?
(but indeed not one word)

Jan

wugi <wugi@brol.invalid> wrote:

> Op 12/04/2024 om 16:09 schreef J. J. Lodder:
> > occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
> >
> >> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> >> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
> >>
> >> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> >> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> >> 3- Greek }
> >> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
> >
> > Never heard or seen that one, probably a misunderstanding,,
>
> Normal usage down here (B-vl).
>
> > based on the existence of the book:
> > Peter Ho, Dat is Chinees voor mij- Zin en onzin over China,
> > <https://www.singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-geus/boek/dat-is-chinees-voor-mij/>
> > (sense and nonsense about China)
> > It is a book explaining China and Chinese culture.
> >
> > Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
>
> Not used here (known though).
>
> > From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> > the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> > (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> > It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
> >
> > Best translated into English as 'gibberish', or 'gobbledygook',
>
> So it doesn't fit in the bi-language list here.

Answered elsewhere,

Jan

Op 12/04/2024 om 10:21 schreef occam:
> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>
> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
> 3- Greek }
> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
> 5- Estonian}
> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>
> Please feel free to add to the list.

And is the usage the same, whether hearing utterances in (supposedly or
knowingly) one's own language (and its dialects), or in a (known or
unknown) foreign language?

--
guido wugi

On 13/04/24 01:39, occam wrote:

> The (second) Turkish expression ('Anladıysam Arap olayım.') is
> definitely racist. It is essentially saying "if I understand this, I'm a
> n*gger." (Arap is used to mean a black person.)

In French I've heard "petit nègre" to describe badly pronounced French.

Google tells me that Petit-Nègre is the name of a West African Creole.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 13/04/24 07:55, wugi wrote:
> Op 12/04/2024 om 10:21 schreef occam:
>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to
>> comprehend.
>>
>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>> 3- Greek }
>> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
>> 5- Estonian}
>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>
>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>
> And is the usage the same, whether hearing utterances in (supposedly
> or knowingly) one's own language (and its dialects), or in a (known
> or unknown) foreign language?

In my experience the English "It's all Greek to me" rarely refers to
utterances. It's more about a field of knowledge. For example, "I don't
understand string theory. It's all Greek to me."

This might also be true for the expressions cited in other languages. I
don't know.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 13/04/2024 2:09 a.m., J. J. Lodder wrote:
> occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:
>
>> Today I stumbled on a mapping of language (1) -> language (2), where
>> language #1 refers to language #2 as confusing or difficult to comprehend.
>>
>> 1- English -> Greek ("It's Greek to me")
>> 2- Italian -> Arabic ("Is that Arabic?")
>> 3- Greek }
>> 4- Dutch } -> Chinese
>
> Never heard or seen that one, probably a misunderstanding,,
> based on the existence of the book:
> Peter Ho, Dat is Chinees voor mij- Zin en onzin over China,
> <https://www.singeluitgeverijen.nl/de-geus/boek/dat-is-chinees-voor-mij/>
> (sense and nonsense about China)
> It is a book explaining China and Chinese culture.
>
> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.
>
> Best translated into English as 'gibberish', or 'gobbledygook',
>
> Jan
>
>
>
>> 5- Estonian}
>> 6- Romanian -> Turkish
>>
>> Please feel free to add to the list.
>
> (subtracted from)
>

I have a little Tok Pisin (Papua New Guinea Pidgin) - to - German
phrasebook which is part of a series called Kauderwelsch-Sprechführer
(Peter-Rump-Verlag). I thought at first the term was being used for
pidgins etc., but all the other titles in the series seem to be for
proper languages (Indonesian, Turkish, Portuguese etc.).

J. J. Lodder wrote:

> jerryfriedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
...

>> > Danish has "kaudervælsk", and ODS (dictionary of the Danish language
>> > until 1950) explains it as a German word "Kauderwelsch" where "kauder"
>> > may come from "kaudern": do business, usure (? what an usurer does),
>> > haggle - used about the foreign or mixed language that foreign peddlers
>> > would use. "-vælsk" means "foreign" with a negative connotation.
>>
>> There's no English verb corresponding to "usurer". You have to
>> say "practice usury", "lend money at interest", or some such.

> "Loan Shark", for bad American ones?
> (but indeed not one word)

"Loansharked" and "loan-sharked" seem to exist. I meant but
didn't quite say that there's no English verb corresponding
etymologically to "usurer".

I think of "loanshark" as the correct spelling, and what is
Google Ngrams' opinion against mine?

--
Jerry Friedman

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

> On 2024-04-12 14:09:38 +0000, J. J. Lodder said:
...

>> Dutch does have 'Koeterwaals', for impossible to understand language.
>> From German 'Kauderwelsch' perhaps from 'Churer Welsch',
>> the Romance language spoken in the Swiss canton Chur.
>> (so not from Belgian 'Waals/Wallon')
>> It may be cognate with English 'Welsh'.

> I have the idea that Welsh, Waals/Wallon, Vlach, Welschland and others
> are all cognate and come from a word meaning "foreign".
...

Yep. Another one is "walnut", not native to Britain.

--
Jerry Friedman