AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/16/2024 9:34 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/16/2024 4:25 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> This said on road geometry hasn’t changed that radically even decades back,
>>>> my Gravel bike is broadly similar to a 40 year old Dawes Galaxy say.
>>>
>>> About the Dawes Galaxy and a modern gravel bike, I agree. During the
>>> years between those two bikes heydays, I argued that the purported
>>> benefits of super-close-clearance frames were mythical.
>>
>> 28/30 seems to be the sweet spot for road bikes, can’t say I thought about
>> it at the time but I didn’t use road bikes until early part of this
>> century. MTB being my thing.
>>
>> But yes fairly obvious now, see also having a good range of gears and so
>> on.
>>>
>>> So it's (very slightly) reassuring to see a fashion trend that actually
>>> makes sense. Even though very few people will actually use a gravel bike
>>> for mostly gravel riding.
>>>
>>>
>> Becoming more so now in my experience ie folks using the gravel bikes off
>> road, the gravel even in Kansas is weather dependent. Certainly used to see
>> them bought and used just on roads which was fine but perhaps a waste of
>> the bike slightly?
>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>>
>
> Yes, Kansas riding is weather dependent:
> https://www.kansascity.com/news/weather-news/article284286543.html
>
> Just like everywhere else!

On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the premier
Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and a lot
of hike a bike!

If one where cruel could compare it to the UCI world Gravel championship
which have been ridden with road bikes….

Roger Merriman

On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>
> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the premier
> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and a lot
> of hike a bike!

I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits. But
I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel racing.

Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1% of
cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
clientele.

How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 11:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia)
>> hosts the premier
>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections
>> very muddy and a lot
>> of hike a bike!
>
> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some
> benefits. But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in
> publicity about gravel racing.
>
> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? -
> maybe 1% of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel
> racing has a far smaller clientele.
>
> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>

What proportion of auto drivers compete? Likely the same or
less. And yet auto racing (in all its myriad forms) garners
even more attention/advertising/viewers.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the premier
>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and a lot
>> of hike a bike!
>
> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits. But
> I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel racing.
>
> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1% of
> cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
> clientele.
>
> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>
At least with Gravel it’s mostly events ie mass start, at the pointy end
folks are racing at the other end folks are having a good day out.

I’d not assume that the road races have the numbers noting that Unbound
it’s self has a few thousand riders.

Though not aware of any TV coverage of any Gravel races.

Strade Bianche is sort of like Paris Roubaix that the racers would loose
too much time with a Gravel bike (or feel they would) on the road section
over the Gravel/cobble sections. Ie while the emphasis is on the
Gravel/cobbles is a lot more road to cover.

Roger Merriman

On 1/18/2024 12:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 11:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>>> premier
>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and
>>> a lot
>>> of hike a bike!
>>
>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
>> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
>> racing.
>>
>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
>> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
>> clientele.
>>
>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>
>
> What proportion of auto drivers compete? Likely the same or less. And
> yet auto racing (in all its myriad forms) garners even more
> attention/advertising/viewers.

Sure. The economic relationship of promotion, advertising and viewers is
clear for auto racing.

But the gravel racing thing seems like a strange blip to me. It's as if
NASCAR magazines and AAA motor vacation magazines started devoting tons
of attention to Paris-Dakar or whatever.

Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
Are there any?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 12:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 12:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 11:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas
>>>> (Emporia) hosts the premier
>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections
>>>> very muddy and a lot
>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>
>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some
>>> benefits. But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in
>>> publicity about gravel racing.
>>>
>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what?
>>> - maybe 1% of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel
>>> racing has a far smaller clientele.
>>>
>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>>
>>
>> What proportion of auto drivers compete? Likely the same
>> or less. And yet auto racing (in all its myriad forms)
>> garners even more attention/advertising/viewers.
>
> Sure. The economic relationship of promotion, advertising
> and viewers is clear for auto racing.
>
> But the gravel racing thing seems like a strange blip to me.
> It's as if NASCAR magazines and AAA motor vacation magazines
> started devoting tons of attention to Paris-Dakar or whatever.
>
> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own
> gravel bikes. Are there any?
>

Beats me.

Sort of a newish term with fuzzy-edged definition. I'm still
not clear about what is an is not a 'hybrid' (stupid term IMHO).

At any rate my Raleigh three speed with 22mm tubs and steel
mudguards works fine on gravel. As did my Pogliaghi with the
same tires. And my fixie, ditto. I'd prefer pavement but
where it's gravel or nothing, I just ride it.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 1:42:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 12:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> > On 1/18/2024 11:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>
> >>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
> >>> premier
> >>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and
> >>> a lot
> >>> of hike a bike!
> >>
> >> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
> >> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
> >> racing.
> >>
> >> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
> >> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
> >> clientele.
> >>
> >> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
> >>
> >
> > What proportion of auto drivers compete? Likely the same or less. And
> > yet auto racing (in all its myriad forms) garners even more
> > attention/advertising/viewers.
> Sure. The economic relationship of promotion, advertising and viewers is
> clear for auto racing.
>
> But the gravel racing thing seems like a strange blip to me. It's as if
> NASCAR magazines and AAA motor vacation magazines started devoting tons
> of attention to Paris-Dakar or whatever.
>
> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
> Are there any?
>

I'm building one now - just as a lark. I have an older Giant XTC SE2 mountain bike with a rigid Kinesis fork that I only used for racing a local bicycle club "mountain bike night" on their weekly road TT course (3rd place three years in a row, woot woot!). I had almost enough parts laying around to convert it to "gravel" - CX wheels/tires, 10SP Sram Force shifters/derailleurs, drop bars - basically all I need are bigger chainrings (I have plenty of chainrings, just not a 50/34 that fits a 94mm BCD crank) and a set of cantilevers that will reach the rim track on a 700C wheel. I sourced some cheap long-reach V-brake style brakes from Amazon that seem to work fine, Chain rings are due in next week. I think I'm going to have to spring for a new stem though the 100 works when I'm on the tops, but I'm really stretched out on the hoods.. Oh, need new bar tape too.

..

On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>> premier
>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and
>> a lot
>> of hike a bike!
>
> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits. But
> I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel racing.
>
> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1% of
> cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
> clientele.
>
> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>

I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M on a new Pickle
Ball facility at the high school.

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 2:57 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia)
>>> hosts the premier
>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections
>>> very muddy and a lot
>>> of hike a bike!
>>
>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some
>> benefits. But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in
>> publicity about gravel racing.
>>
>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what?
>> - maybe 1% of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel
>> racing has a far smaller clientele.
>>
>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>
>
> I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M on a
> new Pickle Ball facility at the high school.
>

I don't know which city it is, but I strongly support your view.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/18/2024 4:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 2:57 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>>>> premier
>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy
>>>> and a lot
>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>
>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
>>> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
>>> racing.
>>>
>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
>>> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far
>>> smaller clientele.
>>>
>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>>
>>
>> I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M on a new
>> Pickle Ball facility at the high school.
>>
>
> I don't know which city it is, but I strongly support your view.

I appreciate that, but I'd imagine it's for wildly different reasons. I
don't have a problem with them investing another $1M into the school
system, just not for fucking pickleball.

They need more investment in lower grade STEM, more teachers,
hell...even more for (the lack of) arts in the high school.

To the gist of this subthread, pickle ball appeals to such an incredible
minority of students, it's probably more likely there was some collusion
for a construction contract.

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 3:47 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 4:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 2:57 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas
>>>>> (Emporia) hosts the premier
>>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections
>>>>> very muddy and a lot
>>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>>
>>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has
>>>> some benefits. But I'm a bit surprised at the recent
>>>> surge in publicity about gravel racing.
>>>>
>>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with -
>>>> what? - maybe 1% of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM
>>>> gravel racing has a far smaller clientele.
>>>>
>>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press
>>>> time?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M
>>> on a new Pickle Ball facility at the high school.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know which city it is, but I strongly support your
>> view.
>
> I appreciate that, but I'd imagine it's for wildly different
> reasons. I don't have a problem with them investing another
> $1M into the school system, just not for fucking pickleball.
>
> They need more investment in lower grade STEM, more
> teachers, hell...even more for (the lack of) arts in the
> high school.
>
> To the gist of this subthread, pickle ball appeals to such
> an incredible minority of students, it's probably more
> likely there was some collusion for a construction contract.
>

Not that I would participate, or even go as a spectator, but
I've asked many times over the years at public meetings,
"When will you finance a municipal drag strip as well?".

There doesn't seem to be a limiting factor so far, if cities
are paying for pickleball courts while HS grads are
illiterate and innumerate...
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 12:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 11:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>>>> premier
>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and
>>>> a lot
>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>
>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
>>> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
>>> racing.
>>>
>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
>>> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
>>> clientele.
>>>
>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>>
>>
>> What proportion of auto drivers compete? Likely the same or less. And
>> yet auto racing (in all its myriad forms) garners even more
>> attention/advertising/viewers.
>
> Sure. The economic relationship of promotion, advertising and viewers is
> clear for auto racing.
>
> But the gravel racing thing seems like a strange blip to me. It's as if
> NASCAR magazines and AAA motor vacation magazines started devoting tons
> of attention to Paris-Dakar or whatever.
>
> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
> Are there any?
>
A number I believe including a monster cross if memory serves which is
essentially its ancestor!

Roger Merriman

On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:47:49 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/18/2024 4:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 2:57 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>>>>> premier
>>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy
>>>>> and a lot
>>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>>
>>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
>>>> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
>>>> racing.
>>>>
>>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
>>>> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far
>>>> smaller clientele.
>>>>
>>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M on a new
>>> Pickle Ball facility at the high school.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know which city it is, but I strongly support your view.
>
>I appreciate that, but I'd imagine it's for wildly different reasons. I
>don't have a problem with them investing another $1M into the school
>system, just not for fucking pickleball.
>
>They need more investment in lower grade STEM, more teachers,
>hell...even more for (the lack of) arts in the high school.
>
>To the gist of this subthread, pickle ball appeals to such an incredible
>minority of students, it's probably more likely there was some collusion
>for a construction contract.

Given that grade school is the base on which all other learning is
founded I would have to believe that a million dollars could be far
better spent on improving facilities or teaching staff.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/18/2024 7:25 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 16:47:49 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/18/2024 4:10 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 2:57 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 1/18/2024 12:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the
>>>>>> premier
>>>>>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy
>>>>>> and a lot
>>>>>> of hike a bike!
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits.
>>>>> But I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel
>>>>> racing.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1%
>>>>> of cyclists ever actually racing? ISTM gravel racing has a far
>>>>> smaller clientele.
>>>>>
>>>>> How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm still miffed about my fair city voting to spend $1M on a new
>>>> Pickle Ball facility at the high school.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I don't know which city it is, but I strongly support your view.
>>
>> I appreciate that, but I'd imagine it's for wildly different reasons. I
>> don't have a problem with them investing another $1M into the school
>> system, just not for fucking pickleball.
>>
>> They need more investment in lower grade STEM, more teachers,
>> hell...even more for (the lack of) arts in the high school.
>>
>> To the gist of this subthread, pickle ball appeals to such an incredible
>> minority of students, it's probably more likely there was some collusion
>> for a construction contract.
>
> Given that grade school is the base on which all other learning is
> founded I would have to believe that a million dollars could be far
> better spent on improving facilities or teaching staff.

CPS spends $30,000 per pupil per year. Its results are
dismal overall and pathetic for black students. A million
dollars in or out won't change the system of wasteful
spending and unqualified unmotivated instructors.

https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2022/pdf/2023010IL8.pdf

CPS = Chicago Public Schools
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/18/2024 1:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 12:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel
>> bikes. Are there any?
>>
>
> Beats me.
>
> Sort of a newish term with fuzzy-edged definition. I'm still not clear
> about what is an is not a 'hybrid' (stupid term IMHO).

https://youtu.be/lJxxph5pQEg?t=254 "They come up with new categories
like Gravel Bikes. What is that?? A drop bar hybrid??"

> At any rate my Raleigh three speed with 22mm tubs and steel mudguards
> works fine on gravel. As did my Pogliaghi with the same tires. And my
> fixie, ditto.  I'd prefer pavement but where it's gravel or nothing, I
> just ride it.

I used to lead a lot of bike club rides, mostly using my touring bike. I
occasionally got complaints that some of the ride was on (gasp!) gravel.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 3:17 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 1:42:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
>> Are there any?
>>
>
> I'm building one now - just as a lark. I have an older Giant XTC SE2 mountain bike with a rigid Kinesis fork that I only used for racing a local bicycle club "mountain bike night" on their weekly road TT course (3rd place three years in a row, woot woot!). I had almost enough parts laying around to convert it to "gravel" - CX wheels/tires, 10SP Sram Force shifters/derailleurs, drop bars - basically all I need are bigger chainrings (I have plenty of chainrings, just not a 50/34 that fits a 94mm BCD crank) and a set of cantilevers that will reach the rim track on a 700C wheel. I sourced some cheap long-reach V-brake style brakes from Amazon that seem to work fine, Chain rings are due in next week. I think I'm going to have to spring for a new stem though the 100 works when I'm on the tops, but I'm really stretched out on the hoods.. Oh, need new bar tape too.

You're not having trouble with insufficient cable pull with the V-brakes?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 8:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 1:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 12:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own
>>> gravel bikes. Are there any?
>>>
>>
>> Beats me.
>>
>> Sort of a newish term with fuzzy-edged definition. I'm
>> still not clear about what is an is not a 'hybrid' (stupid
>> term IMHO).
>
> https://youtu.be/lJxxph5pQEg?t=254  "They come up with new
> categories like Gravel Bikes. What is that?? A drop bar
> hybrid??"
>
>> At any rate my Raleigh three speed with 22mm tubs and
>> steel mudguards works fine on gravel. As did my Pogliaghi
>> with the same tires. And my fixie, ditto.  I'd prefer
>> pavement but where it's gravel or nothing, I just ride it.
>
> I used to lead a lot of bike club rides, mostly using my
> touring bike. I occasionally got complaints that some of the
> ride was on (gasp!) gravel.
>

Good enough for Gino Bartali on a race bike with race tires:

https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11572475/p5pb11572475.jpg

https://bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/bartali-gino/1938-14-tappa-Bartali-sul-V.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tmCXlTvwjkY/TSewOCX5-AI/AAAAAAAABss/H5x11FJyBOg/s400/bartali%2B%25282%2529.jpg

Good enough for me.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/18/2024 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> CPS spends $30,000 per pupil per year. Its results are dismal overall
> and pathetic for black students. A million dollars in or out won't
> change the system of wasteful spending and unqualified unmotivated
> instructors.
>
> https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2022/pdf/2023010IL8.pdf
>
> CPS = Chicago Public Schools

I wonder how an instructor could stay motivated in a school system where
many or most of the families don't give a damn about their kids'
education. I think that's the root of the problem.

Maybe this was posted before, but the first _Freakonomics_ book had a
chapter on an elegant natural experiment. Supposedly, the Chicago system
opened several "magnet" schools, where students who qualified would get
better opportunities, use better equipment, enjoy more activities, etc.

Trouble was, so many families applied to get their kids in that there
wasn't room for all. So the school system held a lottery. If you applied
and your kid won a slot, he got in. If you lost, tough luck.

The "experiment" was to find out how much those magnet schools really
helped the kids. The researchers tracked the academic achievements of
the kids who won entry, vs. the kids who tried to get in but lost the
lottery.

The result? Both sets of kids did great, far better than typical kids.

The conclusion was, it's not the school that matters. It's that the
family cares enough to TRY to get the kid educated as well as possible.
It's the family's standard that matters.

How you change a family's standard is beyond me.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/18/2024 8:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> CPS spends $30,000 per pupil per year. Its results are
>> dismal overall and pathetic for black students. A million
>> dollars in or out won't change the system of wasteful
>> spending and unqualified unmotivated instructors.
>>
>> https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2022/pdf/2023010IL8.pdf
>>
>> CPS = Chicago Public Schools
>
> I wonder how an instructor could stay motivated in a school
> system where many or most of the families don't give a damn
> about their kids' education. I think that's the root of the
> problem.
>
> Maybe this was posted before, but the first _Freakonomics_
> book had a chapter on an elegant natural experiment.
> Supposedly, the Chicago system opened several "magnet"
> schools, where students who qualified would get better
> opportunities, use better equipment, enjoy more activities,
> etc.
>
> Trouble was, so many families applied to get their kids in
> that there wasn't room for all. So the school system held a
> lottery. If you applied and your kid won a slot, he got in.
> If you lost, tough luck.
>
> The "experiment" was to find out how much those magnet
> schools really helped the kids. The researchers tracked the
> academic achievements of the kids who won entry, vs. the
> kids who tried to get in but lost the lottery.
>
> The result? Both sets of kids did great, far better than
> typical kids.
>
> The conclusion was, it's not the school that matters. It's
> that the family cares enough to TRY to get the kid educated
> as well as possible. It's the family's standard that matters.
>
> How you change a family's standard is beyond me.
>

I heartily agree and you have the nub of the problem IMHO.

Still and all magnet schools have been exemplary especially
for black students so The Powers That Be are destroying
them. Naturally.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chicago-parents-rally-to-protect-charter-schools-as-cps-shifts-away-from-school-choice/ar-AA1n8dBq
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/18/2024 8:29 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 8:17 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 8:41 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> CPS spends $30,000 per pupil per year. Its results are
>>> dismal overall and pathetic for black students. A million
>>> dollars in or out won't change the system of wasteful
>>> spending and unqualified unmotivated instructors.
>>>
>>> https://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/subject/publications/stt2022/pdf/2023010IL8.pdf
>>>
>>> CPS = Chicago Public Schools
>>
>> I wonder how an instructor could stay motivated in a
>> school system where many or most of the families don't
>> give a damn about their kids' education. I think that's
>> the root of the problem.
>>
>> Maybe this was posted before, but the first _Freakonomics_
>> book had a chapter on an elegant natural experiment.
>> Supposedly, the Chicago system opened several "magnet"
>> schools, where students who qualified would get better
>> opportunities, use better equipment, enjoy more
>> activities, etc.
>>
>> Trouble was, so many families applied to get their kids in
>> that there wasn't room for all. So the school system held
>> a lottery. If you applied and your kid won a slot, he got
>> in. If you lost, tough luck.
>>
>> The "experiment" was to find out how much those magnet
>> schools really helped the kids. The researchers tracked
>> the academic achievements of the kids who won entry, vs.
>> the kids who tried to get in but lost the lottery.
>>
>> The result? Both sets of kids did great, far better than
>> typical kids.
>>
>> The conclusion was, it's not the school that matters. It's
>> that the family cares enough to TRY to get the kid
>> educated as well as possible. It's the family's standard
>> that matters.
>>
>> How you change a family's standard is beyond me.
>>
>
> I heartily agree and you have the nub of the problem IMHO.
>
> Still and all magnet schools have been exemplary especially
> for black students so The Powers That Be are destroying
> them.  Naturally.
>
> https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/chicago-parents-rally-to-protect-charter-schools-as-cps-shifts-away-from-school-choice/ar-AA1n8dBq

oops this link instead:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/chicago-public-schools-board-considers-ending-selective-enrollment-magnet-schools/ar-AA1lwlPa
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/18/2024 9:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 8:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> I used to lead a lot of bike club rides, mostly using my touring bike.
>> I occasionally got complaints that some of the ride was on (gasp!)
>> gravel.
>>
>
> Good enough for Gino Bartali on a race bike with race tires:
>
> https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11572475/p5pb11572475.jpg
>
> https://bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/bartali-gino/1938-14-tappa-Bartali-sul-V.jpg
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tmCXlTvwjkY/TSewOCX5-AI/AAAAAAAABss/H5x11FJyBOg/s400/bartali%2B%25282%2529.jpg
>
> Good enough for me.

Right. Based on the photos, I'd happily ride any of those surfaces. I
rode worse on my touring bike when fully laden with camping gear.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 12:15:22 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 1/18/2024 11:40 AM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>
>> On the off chance folks don’t follow it, Kansas (Emporia) hosts the premier
>> Gravel race ie Unbound which last year was in sections very muddy and a lot
>> of hike a bike!
>
>I think the recent mini-fashion for gravel bikes has some benefits. But
>I'm a bit surprised at the recent surge in publicity about gravel racing.

I think the major benefit of the gravel bike fashion is that it doesn't
leave the race bike space. It's just another variant of what was called
randonneur, before.

<https://cycletraveloverload.com/all-about-randonneur-bikes-ultimate-list-of-the-best-rando-bikes/>

My Peugeot PR 60/L from 1978 was based on a real race bike frame, but it
had fenders, nevertheless, and it came with StVZO approved lights
powered by a generator.
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/pr60ll.jpg>

These bicycles were sold as training bikes
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/fahrrad/peugeot/index.htm>

- Trimm- und Trainingsrad "Gentleman"
(bike for trimming and training "Gentleman"

but we used them as a randonneur, "Reiserad", like for long tours
through France

<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/wolfgang-strobl/fotos/Frankreich/loire/1.JPG>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/Plone/wolfgang-strobl/fotos/Frankreich/loire/loire3b.PNG>

>Other forms of bike racing are niche enough, with - what? - maybe 1% of
>cyclists ever actually racing?

Doesn't matter. How many people actually perform downhill mountain
biking, jumping over stones, trees and hurdles, like horses? People
bought MTBs for riding on flat, but dirty forest roads. Most of them
switched to motor powered MTB, nowadays. Especially those people who
actually visit hills. Who actually visit hills NOW, that is.

Like most sports, professional world class cycling competitions have
degenerated into a competition to see who has the best sports medicine
specialists. But even weak utility cyclists like me can learn a lot
about effective cycling by analyzing how bicycle racing has progressed
since it was invented. The trick is to pick out what is transferable to
and usefull for utility cycing and ignore all the competition nonsense.

>ISTM gravel racing has a far smaller
>clientele.
>
>How does such a minuscule contingent get so much press time?

Does it? I haven't read much about gravel bikes in German press,
neither local nor national. Our very fashion focused national news
magazine "Der Spiegel" <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel>
had a feature about these in 2019.
<https://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/canyon-grail-al-gravelbike-fuer-einsteiger-fotostrecke-168435.html>

But they write features about almost every fashion they expect or want
to create, including the Segway

<https://www.spiegel.de/auto/segway-wird-bald-nicht-mehr-produziert-ein-unfreundlicher-nachruf-a-74f334c1-fd3f-47a5-a153-40046a1c499b>
That's from 2020.

--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

Am Thu, 18 Jan 2024 13:42:40 -0500 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>
>Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
>Are there any?

I built two of these in early 2023 and mentioned it here, AFAIR. These
replaced two bikes we bought in early 2010. I got them ready for our
vacation in France in spring.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/20230408/DSC02153.jpg>

First test ride, still without bar tape.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/frankreich2023/DSC02350g.jpg>

Someone had written a warning on the road in the opposite direction. If
the road descends steeply after a crest and you suddenly find yourself
on gravel, it can be difficult.

Finger-thick gravel ("gravières"), which occasionally and often abruptly
spoils shorter and longer stretches of road, was no problem for us on
this trip (47 km, cumulative elevation gain of 741 meters, average 14
km/h).

The basis for both bikes was a gravel bike frame, which would allow
(even) wider tires and offers mounting eyelets for pannier racks,
mudguards, three trick bottle cages etc., of which only the ones for
bottle cages are currently in use. I've fitted tubeless Continental GP
5000 28-622 tires with only two layers of fabric, used SRAM Mullet
gears, i.e. the road version in front, but rear derailleur from the MTB
groupset, with a 40 teeth chainring on the crank and a 10-52 cassette at
the rear. We avoid unpaved roads as a matter of principle, but we also
like to ride through the hilly landscape, where short climbs of 10% or
more are hard to avoid. But even the mere 6% of the serpentines that
wind up the D60 and then the D140 for a good four kilometers north of
Lioux are quite demanding on rough asphalt like this at our age,
especially if this is only part of the 740 meters of altitude to be
covered.

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/frankreich2023/DSC02407.jpg>

<https://www.google.de/maps/@43.9710842,5.329559,3a,44.8y,150.71h,87.43t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s5VgTot1gDmWRsSJiUkXY6Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192>

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On 1/18/2024 9:12 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 8:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/18/2024 1:48 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/18/2024 12:42 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel
>>>> bikes. Are there any?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Beats me.
>>>
>>> Sort of a newish term with fuzzy-edged definition. I'm still not
>>> clear about what is an is not a 'hybrid' (stupid term IMHO).
>>
>> https://youtu.be/lJxxph5pQEg?t=254  "They come up with new categories
>> like Gravel Bikes. What is that?? A drop bar hybrid??"
>>
>>> At any rate my Raleigh three speed with 22mm tubs and steel mudguards
>>> works fine on gravel. As did my Pogliaghi with the same tires. And my
>>> fixie, ditto.  I'd prefer pavement but where it's gravel or nothing,
>>> I just ride it.
>>
>> I used to lead a lot of bike club rides, mostly using my touring bike.
>> I occasionally got complaints that some of the ride was on (gasp!)
>> gravel.
>>
>
> Good enough for Gino Bartali on a race bike with race tires:
>
> https://ep1.pinkbike.org/p5pb11572475/p5pb11572475.jpg
>
> https://bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/bartali-gino/1938-14-tappa-Bartali-sul-V.jpg
>
> http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_tmCXlTvwjkY/TSewOCX5-AI/AAAAAAAABss/H5x11FJyBOg/s400/bartali%2B%25282%2529.jpg
>
> Good enough for me.

"race tires" in Gino Bartali's time were very different that what are
available today.
--
Add xx to reply

On 1/18/2024 9:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/18/2024 3:17 PM, funkma...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, January 18, 2024 at 1:42:46 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> Since we're here, I wonder how many r.b.tech denizens own gravel bikes.
>>> Are there any?
>>>
>>
>> I'm building one now - just as a lark. I have an older Giant XTC SE2
>> mountain bike with a rigid Kinesis fork that I only used for racing a
>> local bicycle club "mountain bike night" on their weekly road TT
>> course (3rd place three years in a row, woot woot!). I had almost
>> enough parts laying around to convert it to "gravel" - CX
>> wheels/tires, 10SP Sram Force shifters/derailleurs, drop bars -
>> basically all I need are bigger chainrings (I have plenty of
>> chainrings, just not a 50/34 that fits a 94mm BCD crank) and a set of
>> cantilevers that will reach the rim track on a 700C wheel. I sourced
>> some cheap long-reach V-brake style brakes from Amazon that seem to
>> work fine, Chain rings are due in next week. I think I'm going to have
>> to spring for a new stem though the 100 works when I'm on the tops,
>> but I'm really stretched out on the hoods.. Oh, need new bar tape too.
>
> You're not having trouble with insufficient cable pull with the V-brakes?
>

Not with this set-up. Sram seems to have a pull ratio that is more
compatable with V-brakes

https://www.amazon.com/Chadwick-Adjustable-Aluminum-Installation-Lightweight/dp/B0BVZPHW1J

I expected I would have to play around with the cable adjustment and pad
spacers to get it right, but I was pleasantly surprised when both front
and rear set-up acceptably the first time and only needed minor cable
adjustments to get them dialed in. Caveat - I haven't taken this on the
road yet, but they feel quite good in my basement.

FWIW it's similar to the set-up on my crossbike - Sram Force with an old
set of Deore XT V-brakes on the rear.

--
Add xx to reply