On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 08:22:22 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't have sufficient time today (and tomorrow) to keep you
entertained. This will be short.

>This is why the bitter hatred of Israel - they have no intentions of repeating that tragedy. Hamas will no longer have the least power.

Tom, like you, Hamas wasn't getting enough attention. The attention
was going to other Palestinian organizations in Israel, such as Fatah:
"12 groups working for Israel-Palestine peace"
<https://www.positive.news/world/groups-working-for-israel-palestine-peace/>
Not many Palestinians are terrorists.

>Israel accepted the Palestinians into their country as long as they were peaceful.

Not quite. The Camp David Accords in 1978 established Israel as the
unofficial landing site for displaced people all over the planet.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David_Accords>
The main achievement was to establish autonomous Palestinian zones in
Gaza and the West Bank. Israel didn't want that, but found it
necessary to agree in order retain continued US support. The same
pattern appeared in later negotiations.

>The one exception to citizenship was that they are not allowed
>to vote They will not allow the Democratic process to undo them again.

Totally wrong. Palestinian citizens have had the right to vote and
have representative parties (currently a coalition) in the Knesset
(parliament) since 1949.

"Palestinian Citizens of Israel"
<https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/palestinian_citizens_of_israel/>
"Palestinian citizens of Israel have had the right to vote in Israeli
elections since the first Israeli elections in 1949."

"Joint List"
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joint_List>
"The alliance was the third-largest faction in the Knesset after the
2015 election, estimated to have received 82% of the Arab vote."

List of political Palestinian parties:
<https://ecfr.eu/special/mapping_palestinian_politics/introduction_political_actors/>

Tom, I think you'll find the comments, maps, and details on the above
site interesting and accurate.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:11:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

><SIGH> Anti-Semitism. I don't know what the Jewish people have done
>that produces all the terrible hate.

There's a long history that goes back to the execution of Jesus, which
was blamed on the Jews. The basic problem was that the banking system
was largely run by Jews because Jesus evicted the money changers from
the Temple. Therefore, money lending must be evil and Christians were
not allowed to participate in banking. So, banking was left to the
Jews. Greedy bankers (Shylock) were not very popular and generally
hated.

Sometimes, I wonder what the world would be like if Jesus had lived,
established a dynasty in Israel, and ruled according to the customs of
the time. Offhand, I suspect history would have followed much the
same path that we know from history, starting with Rome dealing
harshly with the uncooperative local ruler.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> writes:

> On 10/30/2023 1:15 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> While I agree with you about misinformation, I will share something
>> interesting about that.  Out here in rural USA, people habitually
>> and rigorously walk facing traffic. Always. In urban areas
>> (especially with sidewalks) there's no pattern but think the
>> cultural meme of 'walk facing traffic' may influence the idiotic
>> cycling behavior.
>
> I think that is the likely explanation. In my state, when there's no
> sidewalk, traffic law says pedestrians must walk at the road's edge
> facing traffic. I assume that's typical of other states.
>
> The problem, I think, is that many people think all travelers without
> motors should behave the same. In actual fact, all vehicle operators
> are supposed to behave the same. In about half the states, bicycles
> are legally vehicles. In the remainder, bicyclists have all the rights
> and duties of vehicle operators, with minimal exceptions.
>
> And the difference in behavior between cyclists and pedestrians is
> logical. A pedestrian can stop almost instantaneously, and actually
> jump sideways if necessary. A bicyclist's motion is both faster and
> more limited.

True. Pedestrians are also advised to stop and look at all
intersections before crossing. That would be tedious on a bicycle.

As a pedestrian I walk facing traffic, particularly if there is no
sidewalk. As a cyclist, I am traffic, and behave accordingly.

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> writes:

> Am 30.10.2023 um 18:15 schrieb AMuzi:
>> On 10/30/2023 12:06 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/30/2023 11:30 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 10/30/2023 10:15 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 10/30/2023 5:54 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>> Am 28.10.2023 um 18:58 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... And about a quarter mile away, one of their classmates was
>>>>>>> killed while riding "contraflow" on a sidewalk, by a woman
>>>>>>> trying to quickly make a right turn out of a parking lot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is why as a parent, I gave a presentation to my son's class
>>>>>> (in a private primary school) highlighting the unexpected
>>>>>> dangers of riding on sidewalks, especially contra-flow.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's a good rebuttal for those on this forum who mock actually
>>>>> learning anything about riding a bicycle.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Everyone is in favor of intellectual rigor, inquiry  and education.
>>>
>>> You may have missed some posts here. John and the tricycle rider
>>> have gone on and on disparaging learning anything about riding a
>>> bike. For example, John has described little kids riding, as
>>> evidence that there's nothing much to learn.
>>>
>>>> Many question the institutions surrounding (smothering) actual
>>>> education.
>>>>
>>>> Mr Mantel does not hold an advanced degree in bicycle riding and
>>>> is not accredited.  And yet he knows something and was helpful
>>>> outside of formal institutions.
>>>
>>> Of course it's possible to have and impart correct information
>>> without formal credentials.
>>>
>>> But there often, or generally, is value in formal credentials. I
>>> described parents yelling at us volunteers during a bike safety
>>> presentation, saying they would NEVER let their kids ride the same
>>> direction as other traffic. A system of reasonable credentials
>>> would filter those people out.
>>>
>>> And that's just one bit of blatant misinformation that gets thrown
>>> around. Others that come to mind are that you don't need lights at
>>> night if you have reflectors; and that cyclists must always get out
>>> of the way so they don't slow down motorists; and that bicycling
>>> isn't safe unless it's done in a "protected bike lane" or other
>>> kiddie path.
>>>
>>> I can go much further, into braking techniques, emergency
>>> maneuvers, etc. To get teaching certification, a candidate has to
>>> demonstrate knowledge and/or skill regarding many things typical
>>> cyclists don't know.
>> While I agree with you about misinformation, I will share something
>> interesting about that.  Out here in rural USA, people habitually
>> and rigorously walk facing traffic.
>
> German road law (and I think this is international standard) specifies
> that on roads with no sidewalk, you should
> 1) walk facing traffic
> 2) leave the road whenever a motor vehicle approaches.
>
> Step 1 is only meaningful by enabling you to practice step 2.

If I practiced step 2 I would always have a poison ivy rash.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:51:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:11:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>><SIGH> Anti-Semitism. I don't know what the Jewish people have done
>>that produces all the terrible hate.
>
>There's a long history that goes back to the execution of Jesus, which
>was blamed on the Jews.

But, of course it was the Romans who actually executed him after
severely torturing him. I don't see so much hatred for Italians.

> The basic problem was that the banking system
>was largely run by Jews because Jesus evicted the money changers from
>the Temple. Therefore, money lending must be evil and Christians were
>not allowed to participate in banking. So, banking was left to the
>Jews. Greedy bankers (Shylock) were not very popular and generally
>hated.

Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down through that
many generations. That part of the world has never gotten rid of the
intertribal hatred, but it upsets me more that the so called Western
World, that was never a part of the Middle Eastern tribalism, can't
get over it, especially when the dominant religion in the Western
World preaches brotherly love.

>Sometimes, I wonder what the world would be like if Jesus had lived,
>established a dynasty in Israel, and ruled according to the customs of
>the time. Offhand, I suspect history would have followed much the
>same path that we know from history, starting with Rome dealing
>harshly with the uncooperative local ruler.

I don't know that he could have done a better job of establishing
Christianity than was done in his name.

On 10/31/2023 1:22 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:51:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:11:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> <SIGH> Anti-Semitism. I don't know what the Jewish people have done
>>> that produces all the terrible hate.
>>
>> There's a long history that goes back to the execution of Jesus, which
>> was blamed on the Jews.
>
> But, of course it was the Romans who actually executed him after
> severely torturing him. I don't see so much hatred for Italians.
>
>> The basic problem was that the banking system
>> was largely run by Jews because Jesus evicted the money changers from
>> the Temple. Therefore, money lending must be evil and Christians were
>> not allowed to participate in banking. So, banking was left to the
>> Jews. Greedy bankers (Shylock) were not very popular and generally
>> hated.
>
> Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down through that
> many generations. That part of the world has never gotten rid of the
> intertribal hatred, but it upsets me more that the so called Western
> World, that was never a part of the Middle Eastern tribalism, can't
> get over it, especially when the dominant religion in the Western
> World preaches brotherly love.
>
>> Sometimes, I wonder what the world would be like if Jesus had lived,
>> established a dynasty in Israel, and ruled according to the customs of
>> the time. Offhand, I suspect history would have followed much the
>> same path that we know from history, starting with Rome dealing
>> harshly with the uncooperative local ruler.
>
> I don't know that he could have done a better job of establishing
> Christianity than was done in his name.

"I don't see so much hatred for Italians"
Well, then again you wouldn't.

"Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down
through that many generations"

Our, founder who did his PhD work in Slavic languages, told
me often in the early seventies, "The Eastern Europeans want
to be free. They want to be free to kill their neighbors;
when the Russians leave, they will."

I didn't understand the depth of that for another several
years but it's more typical than not (Ireland, Rwanda, too
many to list)

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 9:05:28 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:33:36 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 10/31/2023 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:10:51 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 10/31/2023 4:59 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:39:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >>>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:09:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:07:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio..com>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:51:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Well, Tommy, the Camp guards had guns and the Jews didn't. In
> >>>>>>>>> instances where the Jews did have guns - The Warsaw Ghetto, for
> >>>>>>>>> example - resisted the Germans for about a month until a vastly larger
> >>>>>>>>> German force could pacify the area.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A few minor footnotes. At the beginning for the Warsaw Ghetto
> >>>>>>>> uprising, the Jews had very few guns and insufficient ammunition.. So,
> >>>>>>>> they stole what they could from the Germans. Unfortunately, the
> >>>>>>>> Germans were boobie trapping the guns, leaving "practice" ammunition
> >>>>>>>> around, and replacing the German nitrocellulose flake rifle powder
> >>>>>>>> with explosives. Even if the Jews had better guns and ammunition,
> >>>>>>>> none of them were trained in their use. The Jews did better with
> >>>>>>>> Molotov Cocktails and fighting in the sewers.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes, yes, yes.... although I'd doubt the "practice ammunition" or at
> >>>>>>> least I'd say that I never saw such a thing (:-0) But my point was
> >>>>>>> that when the Jews had something to fight with they did, and given
> >>>>>>> manning and equipment were, one might say, rather successful.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> For what it's worth, I wore my new "I stand with Israel" shirt,
> >>>>>> yesterday at Home Depot, Sam's, and Panera. I didn't even get any
> >>>>>> mean stares, but I did get several thumbs ups. Not many ardent
> >>>>>> anti-Semitism freaks here, but still, I think it's useful to display
> >>>>>> and promote opposition to evil.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I read Al Jazeera, which, of course, is an Arabic news agency, and
> >>>>> they, rather approvingly I thought, announced that the Palestinians,
> >>>>> Humas, had rocketed Israel and were invading "with armed forces".
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The next day the Israelis got their act together and were showering
> >>>>> the area from which the rockets had been fired at them with their own
> >>>>> rockets, but no threats of invasion.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And Al Jazeera now is publishing sob stories about all the damage the
> >>>>> Israel rockets are doing. And now I read there are even protests at
> >>>>> U.S. Universities condemning those nasty Israelis...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The mind set seems strange to me. Someone attacks you with rockets and
> >>>>> invades you with armed forces and you are the bad guy?
> >>>> It's the usual pathetic eternal animus toward Jews. Just as
> >>>> the United Nations (world's greatest force for evil) has
> >>>> passed more anti-Israeli acts than on any other subject, any
> >>>> general rule is bent or ignored when applied to Israel who
> >>>> are always condemned, facts be damned.
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.pressreader.com/usa/chicago-tribune/20231031/281642489868835
> >>> Well, you just saw a Jew (Liebermann) ready to tell us just how stupid other Jews are.
> >> Apparently such a post remains undisplayed to me.
> >> --
> >> Andrew Muzi
> >> a...@yellowjersey.org
> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
> > He seems to think that after one incident that others would follo2 blindly along without a thought. Warsaw was the one occasion when Jews said "no". The German Jews had been convinced by Hitler himself that they are bad people in need of punishment. They went along like sheep despite greatly outnumbering their captors. They didn't even warn each other what was coming.
> >
> > This is why the bitter hatred of Israel - they have no intentions of repeating that tragedy. Hamas will no longer have the least power. Israel accepted the Palestinians into their country as long as they were peaceful. The one exception to citizenship was that they are not allowed to vote They will not allow the Democratic process to undo them again.
> I note that you did not ask for advice but I'll offer some
> anyway.
>
> Stop reading Wakypedia and other semi fictional summaries.
> Read things written by the people who lived it.
>
> Steiner escaped the first camp, for example, and returned to
> Warsaw to warn his friends and neighbors, leaders and
> rabbis. No one believed him. He was arrested and returned to
> Treblinka.
>
> https://www.alibris.com/Treblinka-Jean-Francois-Steiner/book/6806449?qsort=p&matches=126
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

You'll have to explain what that is apropos to and I am not Liebermann quoting Wikipedia as if it were actually an encyclopedia

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:43:42 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/31/2023 1:22 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:51:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:11:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>
> >>> <SIGH> Anti-Semitism. I don't know what the Jewish people have done
> >>> that produces all the terrible hate.
> >>
> >> There's a long history that goes back to the execution of Jesus, which
> >> was blamed on the Jews.
> >
> > But, of course it was the Romans who actually executed him after
> > severely torturing him. I don't see so much hatred for Italians.
> >
> >> The basic problem was that the banking system
> >> was largely run by Jews because Jesus evicted the money changers from
> >> the Temple. Therefore, money lending must be evil and Christians were
> >> not allowed to participate in banking. So, banking was left to the
> >> Jews. Greedy bankers (Shylock) were not very popular and generally
> >> hated.
> >
> > Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down through that
> > many generations. That part of the world has never gotten rid of the
> > intertribal hatred, but it upsets me more that the so called Western
> > World, that was never a part of the Middle Eastern tribalism, can't
> > get over it, especially when the dominant religion in the Western
> > World preaches brotherly love.
> >
> >> Sometimes, I wonder what the world would be like if Jesus had lived,
> >> established a dynasty in Israel, and ruled according to the customs of
> >> the time. Offhand, I suspect history would have followed much the
> >> same path that we know from history, starting with Rome dealing
> >> harshly with the uncooperative local ruler.
> >
> > I don't know that he could have done a better job of establishing
> > Christianity than was done in his name.
>
> "I don't see so much hatred for Italians"
> Well, then again you wouldn't.
> "Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down
> through that many generations"
> Our, founder who did his PhD work in Slavic languages, told
> me often in the early seventies, "The Eastern Europeans want
> to be free. They want to be free to kill their neighbors;
> when the Russians leave, they will."
>
> I didn't understand the depth of that for another several
> years but it's more typical than not (Ireland, Rwanda, too
> many to list)
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I am of the mind that country leaders or wannabes use others as whipping boys to drum up hatred. Although I must say, it is very easy to do with the Serbs and the Turks.

On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:22:16 AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:51:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:11:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >><SIGH> Anti-Semitism. I don't know what the Jewish people have done
> >>that produces all the terrible hate.
> >
> >There's a long history that goes back to the execution of Jesus, which
> >was blamed on the Jews.
> But, of course it was the Romans who actually executed him after
> severely torturing him. I don't see so much hatred for Italians.
> > The basic problem was that the banking system
> >was largely run by Jews because Jesus evicted the money changers from
> >the Temple. Therefore, money lending must be evil and Christians were
> >not allowed to participate in banking. So, banking was left to the
> >Jews. Greedy bankers (Shylock) were not very popular and generally
> >hated.
> Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down through that
> many generations. That part of the world has never gotten rid of the
> intertribal hatred, but it upsets me more that the so called Western
> World, that was never a part of the Middle Eastern tribalism, can't
> get over it, especially when the dominant religion in the Western
> World preaches brotherly love.
> >Sometimes, I wonder what the world would be like if Jesus had lived,
> >established a dynasty in Israel, and ruled according to the customs of
> >the time. Offhand, I suspect history would have followed much the
> >same path that we know from history, starting with Rome dealing
> >harshly with the uncooperative local ruler.
> I don't know that he could have done a better job of establishing
> Christianity than was done in his name.
Liebermann hasn't even a passing clue about anything as far as I can tell, He hasn't read the bible and hence shoots off his mouth without knowing ANYTHING. While the Jewish leadership was concerned about losing donations from Christians, Jesus was a Jew. And it was the Romans who crucified Jesus.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:05:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:33:36?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2023 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:10:51?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 10/31/2023 4:59 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:39:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:09:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:07:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:51:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, Tommy, the Camp guards had guns and the Jews didn't. In
>>>>>>>>>> instances where the Jews did have guns - The Warsaw Ghetto, for
>>>>>>>>>> example - resisted the Germans for about a month until a vastly larger
>>>>>>>>>> German force could pacify the area.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A few minor footnotes. At the beginning for the Warsaw Ghetto
>>>>>>>>> uprising, the Jews had very few guns and insufficient ammunition. So,
>>>>>>>>> they stole what they could from the Germans. Unfortunately, the
>>>>>>>>> Germans were boobie trapping the guns, leaving "practice" ammunition
>>>>>>>>> around, and replacing the German nitrocellulose flake rifle powder
>>>>>>>>> with explosives. Even if the Jews had better guns and ammunition,
>>>>>>>>> none of them were trained in their use. The Jews did better with
>>>>>>>>> Molotov Cocktails and fighting in the sewers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, yes, yes.... although I'd doubt the "practice ammunition" or at
>>>>>>>> least I'd say that I never saw such a thing (:-0) But my point was
>>>>>>>> that when the Jews had something to fight with they did, and given
>>>>>>>> manning and equipment were, one might say, rather successful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I wore my new "I stand with Israel" shirt,
>>>>>>> yesterday at Home Depot, Sam's, and Panera. I didn't even get any
>>>>>>> mean stares, but I did get several thumbs ups. Not many ardent
>>>>>>> anti-Semitism freaks here, but still, I think it's useful to display
>>>>>>> and promote opposition to evil.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I read Al Jazeera, which, of course, is an Arabic news agency, and
>>>>>> they, rather approvingly I thought, announced that the Palestinians,
>>>>>> Humas, had rocketed Israel and were invading "with armed forces".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The next day the Israelis got their act together and were showering
>>>>>> the area from which the rockets had been fired at them with their own
>>>>>> rockets, but no threats of invasion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Al Jazeera now is publishing sob stories about all the damage the
>>>>>> Israel rockets are doing. And now I read there are even protests at
>>>>>> U.S. Universities condemning those nasty Israelis...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The mind set seems strange to me. Someone attacks you with rockets and
>>>>>> invades you with armed forces and you are the bad guy?
>>>>> It's the usual pathetic eternal animus toward Jews. Just as
>>>>> the United Nations (world's greatest force for evil) has
>>>>> passed more anti-Israeli acts than on any other subject, any
>>>>> general rule is bent or ignored when applied to Israel who
>>>>> are always condemned, facts be damned.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.pressreader.com/usa/chicago-tribune/20231031/281642489868835
>>>> Well, you just saw a Jew (Liebermann) ready to tell us just how stupid other Jews are.
>>> Apparently such a post remains undisplayed to me.
>>> --
>>> Andrew Muzi
>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>> He seems to think that after one incident that others would follo2 blindly along without a thought. Warsaw was the one occasion when Jews said "no". The German Jews had been convinced by Hitler himself that they are bad people in need of punishment. They went along like sheep despite greatly outnumbering their captors. They didn't even warn each other what was coming.
>>
>> This is why the bitter hatred of Israel - they have no intentions of repeating that tragedy. Hamas will no longer have the least power. Israel accepted the Palestinians into their country as long as they were peaceful. The one exception to citizenship was that they are not allowed to vote They will not allow the Democratic process to undo them again.
>
>I note that you did not ask for advice but I'll offer some
>anyway.
>
>Stop reading Wakypedia and other semi fictional summaries.
>Read things written by the people who lived it.
>
>Steiner escaped the first camp, for example, and returned to
>Warsaw to warn his friends and neighbors, leaders and
>rabbis. No one believed him. He was arrested and returned to
>Treblinka.
>
>https://www.alibris.com/Treblinka-Jean-Francois-Steiner/book/6806449?qsort=p&matches=126

Move the circumstances a bit closer to home and look at "Kent State".
One side has guns and demonstrates their willingness to use them and
the other side doesn't have guns.

But what's the matter with the Wiki? They have pretty good coverage of
the Warsaw uprising
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 10/31/2023 5:41 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:05:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 10/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:33:36?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 10/31/2023 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:10:51?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 10/31/2023 4:59 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:39:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:09:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:07:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:51:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well, Tommy, the Camp guards had guns and the Jews didn't. In
>>>>>>>>>>> instances where the Jews did have guns - The Warsaw Ghetto, for
>>>>>>>>>>> example - resisted the Germans for about a month until a vastly larger
>>>>>>>>>>> German force could pacify the area.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A few minor footnotes. At the beginning for the Warsaw Ghetto
>>>>>>>>>> uprising, the Jews had very few guns and insufficient ammunition. So,
>>>>>>>>>> they stole what they could from the Germans. Unfortunately, the
>>>>>>>>>> Germans were boobie trapping the guns, leaving "practice" ammunition
>>>>>>>>>> around, and replacing the German nitrocellulose flake rifle powder
>>>>>>>>>> with explosives. Even if the Jews had better guns and ammunition,
>>>>>>>>>> none of them were trained in their use. The Jews did better with
>>>>>>>>>> Molotov Cocktails and fighting in the sewers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes, yes, yes.... although I'd doubt the "practice ammunition" or at
>>>>>>>>> least I'd say that I never saw such a thing (:-0) But my point was
>>>>>>>>> that when the Jews had something to fight with they did, and given
>>>>>>>>> manning and equipment were, one might say, rather successful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I wore my new "I stand with Israel" shirt,
>>>>>>>> yesterday at Home Depot, Sam's, and Panera. I didn't even get any
>>>>>>>> mean stares, but I did get several thumbs ups. Not many ardent
>>>>>>>> anti-Semitism freaks here, but still, I think it's useful to display
>>>>>>>> and promote opposition to evil.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I read Al Jazeera, which, of course, is an Arabic news agency, and
>>>>>>> they, rather approvingly I thought, announced that the Palestinians,
>>>>>>> Humas, had rocketed Israel and were invading "with armed forces".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The next day the Israelis got their act together and were showering
>>>>>>> the area from which the rockets had been fired at them with their own
>>>>>>> rockets, but no threats of invasion.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And Al Jazeera now is publishing sob stories about all the damage the
>>>>>>> Israel rockets are doing. And now I read there are even protests at
>>>>>>> U.S. Universities condemning those nasty Israelis...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The mind set seems strange to me. Someone attacks you with rockets and
>>>>>>> invades you with armed forces and you are the bad guy?
>>>>>> It's the usual pathetic eternal animus toward Jews. Just as
>>>>>> the United Nations (world's greatest force for evil) has
>>>>>> passed more anti-Israeli acts than on any other subject, any
>>>>>> general rule is bent or ignored when applied to Israel who
>>>>>> are always condemned, facts be damned.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.pressreader.com/usa/chicago-tribune/20231031/281642489868835
>>>>> Well, you just saw a Jew (Liebermann) ready to tell us just how stupid other Jews are.
>>>> Apparently such a post remains undisplayed to me.
>>>> --
>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>> He seems to think that after one incident that others would follo2 blindly along without a thought. Warsaw was the one occasion when Jews said "no". The German Jews had been convinced by Hitler himself that they are bad people in need of punishment. They went along like sheep despite greatly outnumbering their captors. They didn't even warn each other what was coming.
>>>
>>> This is why the bitter hatred of Israel - they have no intentions of repeating that tragedy. Hamas will no longer have the least power. Israel accepted the Palestinians into their country as long as they were peaceful. The one exception to citizenship was that they are not allowed to vote They will not allow the Democratic process to undo them again.
>>
>> I note that you did not ask for advice but I'll offer some
>> anyway.
>>
>> Stop reading Wakypedia and other semi fictional summaries.
>> Read things written by the people who lived it.
>>
>> Steiner escaped the first camp, for example, and returned to
>> Warsaw to warn his friends and neighbors, leaders and
>> rabbis. No one believed him. He was arrested and returned to
>> Treblinka.
>>
>> https://www.alibris.com/Treblinka-Jean-Francois-Steiner/book/6806449?qsort=p&matches=126
>
> Move the circumstances a bit closer to home and look at "Kent State".
> One side has guns and demonstrates their willingness to use them and
> the other side doesn't have guns.
>
> But what's the matter with the Wiki? They have pretty good coverage of
> the Warsaw uprising
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
>

And the Israeli villages marauded by savages on 7 October
were mostly unarmed. The few people who were armed lived.
Have you suddenly discovered the beauty of our beloved 2d
Amendment?

BTW I have come to believe that the Kent tragedy was
negligent overreaction not a direct order. Then again
soldiers shouldn't have been there if lethal force was not
considered so there's plenty enough blame to go around.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 09:33:32 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/31/2023 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:10:51?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 10/31/2023 4:59 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:39:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:09:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:07:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:51:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Well, Tommy, the Camp guards had guns and the Jews didn't. In
>>>>>>>> instances where the Jews did have guns - The Warsaw Ghetto, for
>>>>>>>> example - resisted the Germans for about a month until a vastly larger
>>>>>>>> German force could pacify the area.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A few minor footnotes. At the beginning for the Warsaw Ghetto
>>>>>>> uprising, the Jews had very few guns and insufficient ammunition. So,
>>>>>>> they stole what they could from the Germans. Unfortunately, the
>>>>>>> Germans were boobie trapping the guns, leaving "practice" ammunition
>>>>>>> around, and replacing the German nitrocellulose flake rifle powder
>>>>>>> with explosives. Even if the Jews had better guns and ammunition,
>>>>>>> none of them were trained in their use. The Jews did better with
>>>>>>> Molotov Cocktails and fighting in the sewers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, yes, yes.... although I'd doubt the "practice ammunition" or at
>>>>>> least I'd say that I never saw such a thing (:-0) But my point was
>>>>>> that when the Jews had something to fight with they did, and given
>>>>>> manning and equipment were, one might say, rather successful.
>>>>>
>>>>> For what it's worth, I wore my new "I stand with Israel" shirt,
>>>>> yesterday at Home Depot, Sam's, and Panera. I didn't even get any
>>>>> mean stares, but I did get several thumbs ups. Not many ardent
>>>>> anti-Semitism freaks here, but still, I think it's useful to display
>>>>> and promote opposition to evil.
>>>>
>>>> I read Al Jazeera, which, of course, is an Arabic news agency, and
>>>> they, rather approvingly I thought, announced that the Palestinians,
>>>> Humas, had rocketed Israel and were invading "with armed forces".
>>>>
>>>> The next day the Israelis got their act together and were showering
>>>> the area from which the rockets had been fired at them with their own
>>>> rockets, but no threats of invasion.
>>>>
>>>> And Al Jazeera now is publishing sob stories about all the damage the
>>>> Israel rockets are doing. And now I read there are even protests at
>>>> U.S. Universities condemning those nasty Israelis...
>>>>
>>>> The mind set seems strange to me. Someone attacks you with rockets and
>>>> invades you with armed forces and you are the bad guy?
>>> It's the usual pathetic eternal animus toward Jews. Just as
>>> the United Nations (world's greatest force for evil) has
>>> passed more anti-Israeli acts than on any other subject, any
>>> general rule is bent or ignored when applied to Israel who
>>> are always condemned, facts be damned.
>>>
>>> https://www.pressreader.com/usa/chicago-tribune/20231031/281642489868835
>
>> Well, you just saw a Jew (Liebermann) ready to tell us just how stupid other Jews are.
>
>Apparently such a post remains undisplayed to me.

The Tribune article? Or Jeff and the stupid Jews?

The original Tribune article is here
https://www.chicagotribune.com/opinion/letters/ct-letters-vp-103123-20231031-u7ctdiao7fdi7ixnsluhny7v6m-story.html
The Jeff quote ? It doesn't seem to exist, except in Tommy's vivid
imagination (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 08:20:18 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/31/2023 4:59 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:39:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:09:06 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:07:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:51:07 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Well, Tommy, the Camp guards had guns and the Jews didn't. In
>>>>>> instances where the Jews did have guns - The Warsaw Ghetto, for
>>>>>> example - resisted the Germans for about a month until a vastly larger
>>>>>> German force could pacify the area.
>>>>>
>>>>> A few minor footnotes. At the beginning for the Warsaw Ghetto
>>>>> uprising, the Jews had very few guns and insufficient ammunition. So,
>>>>> they stole what they could from the Germans. Unfortunately, the
>>>>> Germans were boobie trapping the guns, leaving "practice" ammunition
>>>>> around, and replacing the German nitrocellulose flake rifle powder
>>>>> with explosives. Even if the Jews had better guns and ammunition,
>>>>> none of them were trained in their use. The Jews did better with
>>>>> Molotov Cocktails and fighting in the sewers.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, yes, yes.... although I'd doubt the "practice ammunition" or at
>>>> least I'd say that I never saw such a thing (:-0) But my point was
>>>> that when the Jews had something to fight with they did, and given
>>>> manning and equipment were, one might say, rather successful.
>>>
>>> For what it's worth, I wore my new "I stand with Israel" shirt,
>>> yesterday at Home Depot, Sam's, and Panera. I didn't even get any
>>> mean stares, but I did get several thumbs ups. Not many ardent
>>> anti-Semitism freaks here, but still, I think it's useful to display
>>> and promote opposition to evil.
>>
>> I read Al Jazeera, which, of course, is an Arabic news agency, and
>> they, rather approvingly I thought, announced that the Palestinians,
>> Humas, had rocketed Israel and were invading "with armed forces".
>>
>> The next day the Israelis got their act together and were showering
>> the area from which the rockets had been fired at them with their own
>> rockets, but no threats of invasion.
>>
>> And Al Jazeera now is publishing sob stories about all the damage the
>> Israel rockets are doing. And now I read there are even protests at
>> U.S. Universities condemning those nasty Israelis...
>>
>> The mind set seems strange to me. Someone attacks you with rockets and
>> invades you with armed forces and you are the bad guy?
>
>It's the usual pathetic eternal animus toward Jews. Just as
>the United Nations (world's greatest force for evil) has
>passed more anti-Israeli acts than on any other subject, any
>general rule is bent or ignored when applied to Israel who
>are always condemned, facts be damned.
>
>https://www.pressreader.com/usa/chicago-tribune/20231031/281642489868835

Well, why not? After all we had the greatest mass lynching in the
history of the U.S., in New Orleans was it? To rid the world of those
criminal Italians. Then we have those nasty Japanese who we had to
drop two atom bombs on, and then those lousy Communist Vietnamese who
we now import some $127.5 billion worth of goods from.

Now, of course it is the Russians, from whom we import some $14.4
billion in goods and of course those lousy Chinese from whom we import
about $536.3 billion in goods.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:22:44 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Well, you just saw a Jew (Liebermann) ready to tell us just how stupid other Jews are.

How do you know what I'm ready to tell? Mind reading? Remote
viewing? Clairvoyance? Crystal Ball? AI? Fortune cookies? Also,
what is your secret method of getting everything wrong?

Stupid Jews? Methinks not.
"Why are there so many Jewish Nobel winners?"
<https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/all/why-are-there-so-many-jewish-nobel-winners-62GVubBTjm6Poz2VdPOhDz>
"One of the most remarkable Nobel statistics is that 22 per cent of
winners have been Jewish, despite our people comprising less than 0.2
per cent of the world’s population."

Drivel: Back to flux MIG welding my wood burning stove back together.
Photos hopefully in a few days.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 12:30:45 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 11:22:16?AM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:51:53 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>> wrote:
>> >On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 07:11:49 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> >
>> >><SIGH> Anti-Semitism. I don't know what the Jewish people have done
>> >>that produces all the terrible hate.
>> >
>> >There's a long history that goes back to the execution of Jesus, which
>> >was blamed on the Jews.
>> But, of course it was the Romans who actually executed him after
>> severely torturing him. I don't see so much hatred for Italians.
>> > The basic problem was that the banking system
>> >was largely run by Jews because Jesus evicted the money changers from
>> >the Temple. Therefore, money lending must be evil and Christians were
>> >not allowed to participate in banking. So, banking was left to the
>> >Jews. Greedy bankers (Shylock) were not very popular and generally
>> >hated.
>> Hard to believe that so much hatred can be passed down through that
>> many generations. That part of the world has never gotten rid of the
>> intertribal hatred, but it upsets me more that the so called Western
>> World, that was never a part of the Middle Eastern tribalism, can't
>> get over it, especially when the dominant religion in the Western
>> World preaches brotherly love.
>> >Sometimes, I wonder what the world would be like if Jesus had lived,
>> >established a dynasty in Israel, and ruled according to the customs of
>> >the time. Offhand, I suspect history would have followed much the
>> >same path that we know from history, starting with Rome dealing
>> >harshly with the uncooperative local ruler.
>> I don't know that he could have done a better job of establishing
>> Christianity than was done in his name.
>Liebermann hasn't even a passing clue about anything as far as I can tell, He hasn't
read the bible and hence shoots off his mouth without knowing
ANYTHING. While the Jewish leadership was concerned about losing
donations from Christians, Jesus was a Jew. And it was the Romans who
crucified Jesus.

And once again Tommy flaunts his ignorance! "He hasn't read the
Bible"?

The Christians stole the Jewish Holy books and renamed then "
The Old Testament" and in Judaism every child when they become 12 or
13 years of age, and are expected to be held responsible for knowing
Jewish ritual law, tradition, and ethics.

And your comment, "the Jewish leadership was concerned about losing
donations from Christians", if you are talking about "Jesus Cleansing
the Temple", then yes, he drove out the people selling live stock for
ritual slaughter and money changers who were changing Roman money to
Jewish currency for offerings at the temple.

But no donations were lost "from Christians"... there weren't any
Christians.

But the question does arise, once the temple was cleansed where did
the poor worshiper find the goat to sacrifice? Or the Jewish money to
donate"

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 17:55:20 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 10/31/2023 5:41 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 11:05:23 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/31/2023 10:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:33:36?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 10/31/2023 9:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, October 31, 2023 at 7:10:51?AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 10/31/2023 4:59 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 04:39:48 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 10:09:06 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 18:07:20 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 31 Oct 2023 05:51:07 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, Tommy, the Camp guards had guns and the Jews didn't. In
>>>>>>>>>>>> instances where the Jews did have guns - The Warsaw Ghetto, for
>>>>>>>>>>>> example - resisted the Germans for about a month until a vastly larger
>>>>>>>>>>>> German force could pacify the area.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> A few minor footnotes. At the beginning for the Warsaw Ghetto
>>>>>>>>>>> uprising, the Jews had very few guns and insufficient ammunition. So,
>>>>>>>>>>> they stole what they could from the Germans. Unfortunately, the
>>>>>>>>>>> Germans were boobie trapping the guns, leaving "practice" ammunition
>>>>>>>>>>> around, and replacing the German nitrocellulose flake rifle powder
>>>>>>>>>>> with explosives. Even if the Jews had better guns and ammunition,
>>>>>>>>>>> none of them were trained in their use. The Jews did better with
>>>>>>>>>>> Molotov Cocktails and fighting in the sewers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, yes, yes.... although I'd doubt the "practice ammunition" or at
>>>>>>>>>> least I'd say that I never saw such a thing (:-0) But my point was
>>>>>>>>>> that when the Jews had something to fight with they did, and given
>>>>>>>>>> manning and equipment were, one might say, rather successful.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For what it's worth, I wore my new "I stand with Israel" shirt,
>>>>>>>>> yesterday at Home Depot, Sam's, and Panera. I didn't even get any
>>>>>>>>> mean stares, but I did get several thumbs ups. Not many ardent
>>>>>>>>> anti-Semitism freaks here, but still, I think it's useful to display
>>>>>>>>> and promote opposition to evil.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I read Al Jazeera, which, of course, is an Arabic news agency, and
>>>>>>>> they, rather approvingly I thought, announced that the Palestinians,
>>>>>>>> Humas, had rocketed Israel and were invading "with armed forces".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The next day the Israelis got their act together and were showering
>>>>>>>> the area from which the rockets had been fired at them with their own
>>>>>>>> rockets, but no threats of invasion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And Al Jazeera now is publishing sob stories about all the damage the
>>>>>>>> Israel rockets are doing. And now I read there are even protests at
>>>>>>>> U.S. Universities condemning those nasty Israelis...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The mind set seems strange to me. Someone attacks you with rockets and
>>>>>>>> invades you with armed forces and you are the bad guy?
>>>>>>> It's the usual pathetic eternal animus toward Jews. Just as
>>>>>>> the United Nations (world's greatest force for evil) has
>>>>>>> passed more anti-Israeli acts than on any other subject, any
>>>>>>> general rule is bent or ignored when applied to Israel who
>>>>>>> are always condemned, facts be damned.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.pressreader.com/usa/chicago-tribune/20231031/281642489868835
>>>>>> Well, you just saw a Jew (Liebermann) ready to tell us just how stupid other Jews are.
>>>>> Apparently such a post remains undisplayed to me.
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew Muzi
>>>>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>>>> He seems to think that after one incident that others would follo2 blindly along without a thought. Warsaw was the one occasion when Jews said "no". The German Jews had been convinced by Hitler himself that they are bad people in need of punishment. They went along like sheep despite greatly outnumbering their captors. They didn't even warn each other what was coming.
>>>>
>>>> This is why the bitter hatred of Israel - they have no intentions of repeating that tragedy. Hamas will no longer have the least power. Israel accepted the Palestinians into their country as long as they were peaceful. The one exception to citizenship was that they are not allowed to vote They will not allow the Democratic process to undo them again.
>>>
>>> I note that you did not ask for advice but I'll offer some
>>> anyway.
>>>
>>> Stop reading Wakypedia and other semi fictional summaries.
>>> Read things written by the people who lived it.
>>>
>>> Steiner escaped the first camp, for example, and returned to
>>> Warsaw to warn his friends and neighbors, leaders and
>>> rabbis. No one believed him. He was arrested and returned to
>>> Treblinka.
>>>
>>> https://www.alibris.com/Treblinka-Jean-Francois-Steiner/book/6806449?qsort=p&matches=126
>>
>> Move the circumstances a bit closer to home and look at "Kent State".
>> One side has guns and demonstrates their willingness to use them and
>> the other side doesn't have guns.
>>
>> But what's the matter with the Wiki? They have pretty good coverage of
>> the Warsaw uprising
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising
>>
>
>And the Israeli villages marauded by savages on 7 October
>were mostly unarmed. The few people who were armed lived.
>Have you suddenly discovered the beauty of our beloved 2d
>Amendment?
>
>BTW I have come to believe that the Kent tragedy was
>negligent overreaction not a direct order. Then again
>soldiers shouldn't have been there if lethal force was not
>considered so there's plenty enough blame to go around.\

Yes, I deliberately avoided any reference to who order it, who done
it, and so on, and concentrated on the fact that the guys with the
guns won and the guys without guns lost.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:58:21 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>The youngest kids in the extended family learned bicycling by running
>about on "balance bikes," special little things with no pedals,
>propelled by scooting. It seems by far the fastest way to learn.

Perhaps. When those tiny versions of the ancient draisine became some
kind of fashion, our kids had already learned how to ride a proper
bicycle. They learned steering on a tiny plastic tricycle inhouse at
home, later by riding a somewhat larger tricycle with pedals on the
front wheel and an optional push bar. Good enough to get to the
kindergarten on the sidewalk over almost a kilometer.

>
>And when they were very, very young they were confined to sidewalks or
>parks. On one super-busy road in their town they still use one sidewalk
>or sidepath.
>
>But! On a "Bike to School" special day, one of the kids was nearly hit
>by a driver zooming through a turn without checking for bikes. And about
>a quarter mile away, one of their classmates was killed while riding
>"contraflow" on a sidewalk, by a woman trying to quickly make a right
>turn out of a parking lot.

Fortunately, in our neighborhood there are very few houses with
driveways for cars, so it is sufficient to teach children how to cross
the lane of cross streets. Halfway through elementary school, at an age
of eight, German law allows children to leave the sidewalk for riding on
the road, instead, which is the proper and safer way, most of the time,
anyway.

--
Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen

On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 18:47:26 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
<news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:

>Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:58:21 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>
>>The youngest kids in the extended family learned bicycling by running
>>about on "balance bikes," special little things with no pedals,
>>propelled by scooting. It seems by far the fastest way to learn.
>
>Perhaps. When those tiny versions of the ancient draisine became some
>kind of fashion, our kids had already learned how to ride a proper
>bicycle. They learned steering on a tiny plastic tricycle inhouse at
>home, later by riding a somewhat larger tricycle with pedals on the
>front wheel and an optional push bar. Good enough to get to the
>kindergarten on the sidewalk over almost a kilometer.
>
>>
>>And when they were very, very young they were confined to sidewalks or
>>parks. On one super-busy road in their town they still use one sidewalk
>>or sidepath.
>>
>>But! On a "Bike to School" special day, one of the kids was nearly hit
>>by a driver zooming through a turn without checking for bikes. And about
>>a quarter mile away, one of their classmates was killed while riding
>>"contraflow" on a sidewalk, by a woman trying to quickly make a right
>>turn out of a parking lot.
>
>Fortunately, in our neighborhood there are very few houses with
>driveways for cars, so it is sufficient to teach children how to cross
>the lane of cross streets. Halfway through elementary school, at an age
>of eight, German law allows children to leave the sidewalk for riding on
>the road, instead, which is the proper and safer way, most of the time,
>anyway.

When I grew up, in a small New England village, bicycles weren't
allowed at the school yards/buildings. I have no idea why, perhaps
parking room? But that was the rule. So we walked, up to one mile to
school - over a mile there were school busses - and it was "normal" to
walk, my father walked to work, admittedly only in "good" weather,
about a mile to work and a mile home at the end of the day.

I don't suppose we noticed it at the time but from memory there were
very few "fat"people in those days.
--
Cheers,

John B.

Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:21:40 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>On 10/27/2023 12:36 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>> On 10/27/2023 4:36 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It would be funny if it wasn't so concerning. Every time you list a few
>>>> disadvantages of traffic separation, which is to restrict bicycle
>>>> traffic to the roadsides, someone comes around and tells you about the
>>>> advantages of riding along railroad tracks, boardwalks, or towpaths
>>>> along canals amd rivers, i.e., where there are no intersections and
>>>> junctions only on the opposite side.
>>>>
>>>> I live in a medium-sized city with the Rhine flowing through it. I can
>>>> walk from my home to the Rhine promenade in ten minutes, but just two
>>>> kilometers from that point a climb to a plateau 100 meters higher
>>>> begins. Even further up it becomes somewhat hilly. However, the
>>>> discussion about bicycle infrastructure is dominated by people who never
>>>> leave the Rhine plain, at least not by bicycle.
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, the concept of fenced special routes, from which you can
>>>> only rarely switch to the real road network and where crossing and
>>>> turning are not even provided for, has also been tried to be implemented
>>>> in areas where the prerequisite - an extensive geographical obstacle on
>>>> one side, a river, a railway, a canal, a highway is not given. The
>>>> consequences are terrible.
>>>>
>>>> It has been many years since I cycled along the Rhine promenade instead
>>>> walking there, but I have often cycled 50-100 km roundtrip, from 60
>>>> meters above sea level up to 500 or 600 meters and back again, since I
>>>> retired. The only way to do this quickly and safely was to avoid areas
>>>> with cycling infrastructure. My commute to my workplace on the other
>>>> side of the Rhine was similar, only 12 km each way, but about 150 meters
>>>> of elevation gain, through former villages and a meandering network of
>>>> roads, small and large - no river or railway in sight. By avoiding
>>>> bicycling infrastructure and and by switching to a real racing bike I
>>>> was able to reduce the time required from two to one hour. It was more
>>>> fun too.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> That reflects my experience as well.
>>
>> London Embankment is and still is at times near gridlock so and pulsing ie
>> stop go and so on. So while it’s possible to reach higher speeds on road
>> the time from Westminster to tower seems broadly similar, and since you can
>> hold high speeds, some folks will average 20mph over the few miles, helped
>> by the cycleways width and that it has relatively few traffic lights if
>> going directly on, which isn’t the case on the road.
>>
>> I do suspect can reach higher speeds on road as well draft effect from
>> traffic and some of the tunnel dips, but you will hit both more traffic and
>> traffic lights, looking at my times both pre and post the cycleway it’s a
>> fairly tight cluster, ie nothing in it speed wise for a fast ish road bike.
>
>I think most bike commuters are not trying to average 20 mph, so the
>ability to do that, if it exists, is not a very important advantage.

I fail to understand that statement, for the following reason. Neither
when commuting, nor while riding for other purposes - staying fit,
having fun, getting groceries, explore your surroundings during a
vacation - do I try to average a certain predetermined speed. Instead,
I have a set of constraints to adjust to: personal ones as for example
time budget, the bike acutally used, my endurance, my threshold power,
external constraints like for example stops enforced by traffic as it
exists, road quality, terrain profile, weather.

In summary, my actuall speed has absolutely no relation to some
predetermined average speed. Average speed is an emergent property of
all the varying conditions during a concrete ride. Most probably, this
works similar for other cyclists, just with different constraints and
different results. Even more, when taking the the whole population of
cyclists into account, it makes absolutely no sense to define a
fictitious average speed of a cyclist for a traffic route, especially
not if that is supposed to be the maximal speed to which one can limit
one's considerations for traffic planning purposes.

IMHO, this is the strongest argument against any kind of segregated bike
facilities, these are build with a lot of assumptions that just do not
hold for cyclists, almost everywhere. But see below.

>I
>also think that very few segregated bike facilities confer that
>advantage.

It isn't actual an advantage. To reduce the discourse to a comparatively
slow pace of 20 mph (32 km/h) by not taking variance into account,
caused by traffic lights, changing fitness levels, uphill and downhill
gradients, tailwinds and headwinds means understanding the bicycle as
some kind of underpowered motorized vehicle.

Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened in the past: the so-called
e-bike, specifically the European variant, was created by relabeling the
former “motorized bicycle” ("Mofa") - a motorized bicycle, mandatory
pedals, limited to a maximum of 25 km/h, with only minor changes as a
bicycle de jure.

That kind of E-Bike is technicall called "pedelec" in Germany, vélo à
assistance électrique in french (formerly cylclomoteur)
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomoteur>, but is more and more often
simply called biycle ("Fahrrad") in common parlance.

Usuping the term bicycle for a light electric motorcycle limited to 25
km/h that enforces symbolic pedal movement means that we now have a
motoriced vehicle called "biycle" that exactly fits that misconception:
a vehicle allowing almost everybody to effordlessly ride about 20-22
km/h, almost everywhere, independent of grade, wind, condition, surface
and distance. A vehicle, that makes riding faster than 25 km/h a real
challenge, even harder that riding a real bicycle.

>It's certainly not part of the promotion spiel.

That's for sure.

But building a few wide, prestigious promenades for cyclists is part of
the game. Planning and building excess capacity has always been part of
traffic planning for motor vehicles. It's no problem to find some space
that is no longer needed. Whether these swanky promenades are useful for
cycling doesn't matter, nor does it matter whether they are used for
pedestrian traffic, street cafes, garbage cans or something else, later.
Take a few photos for advertising brochures, have the city post them on
their websites, distribute them to underemployed traffic planners who
aren't allowed to do real streets, and the job is done.

>
>The promotion spiel is "This will finally make bicycling SAFE!" or
>worse, "Riding cannot be safe without this!" But lacking a shoreline,
>freeway or railroad at one side, almost all sidepaths subject cyclists
>to crossing conflicts, often exacerbated by weird intersection geometry.

Exactly.

>I mentioned the woman yesterday, looking at her cellphone as she pulled
>out across our path. She obviously didn't think "I'm crossing a
>bi-directional bike path. People could be coming from my right."

One ours sons lives in Essen, where there is one of these cycling
lighthouse projects, called RS1
<https://www.essen.de/leben/mobilitaet/radfahren_1/rs_1.de.html>

Don't try to look for the English version of that page, that web
presence is almost as broken as RS1, use Firefox translate or some other
translater to read it, if you can't read German. Read
<https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-bicycle-autobahn-pedaling-nowhere/a-19155674>
to get some impression, but take it with half a kilo of salt, this is
marketing bullshit.

Our son uses part of that "cycle highway" to get to and from work. Some
parts of this bike path are paved, others are not. This detail is quite
easy to see. Some sections seem to allow very fast riding, others do
not. Problem: Most of the time you only know afterwards whether it is
one type or the other.

Last year, when riding back home in the dark, with good lights, on a
part that seemed to allow fast riding, he almost crashed into a group of
people. He said it was pure luck that he missed them; he saw absolutely
nothing. What was it? Two astronomers who had chosen this spot on the
bike path as the darkest available and had set up their stand there in
the middle of the "cycle highway" to observe and photograph a
Venus-Jupiter conjunction, and had therefore covered themselves and the
tripod with a matt black blanket or tent.

Am Thu, 02 Nov 2023 06:15:15 +0700 schrieb John B.
<slocombjb@gmail.com>:

>On Wed, 01 Nov 2023 18:47:26 +0100, Wolfgang Strobl
><news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
>
>>Am Sat, 28 Oct 2023 12:58:21 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>>
>>
>>>The youngest kids in the extended family learned bicycling by running
>>>about on "balance bikes," special little things with no pedals,
>>>propelled by scooting. It seems by far the fastest way to learn.
>>
>>Perhaps. When those tiny versions of the ancient draisine became some
>>kind of fashion, our kids had already learned how to ride a proper
>>bicycle. They learned steering on a tiny plastic tricycle inhouse at
>>home, later by riding a somewhat larger tricycle with pedals on the
>>front wheel and an optional push bar. Good enough to get to the
>>kindergarten on the sidewalk over almost a kilometer.
>>
>>>
>>>And when they were very, very young they were confined to sidewalks or
>>>parks. On one super-busy road in their town they still use one sidewalk
>>>or sidepath.
>>>
>>>But! On a "Bike to School" special day, one of the kids was nearly hit
>>>by a driver zooming through a turn without checking for bikes. And about
>>>a quarter mile away, one of their classmates was killed while riding
>>>"contraflow" on a sidewalk, by a woman trying to quickly make a right
>>>turn out of a parking lot.
>>
>>Fortunately, in our neighborhood there are very few houses with
>>driveways for cars, so it is sufficient to teach children how to cross
>>the lane of cross streets. Halfway through elementary school, at an age
>>of eight, German law allows children to leave the sidewalk for riding on
>>the road, instead, which is the proper and safer way, most of the time,
>>anyway.
>
>When I grew up, in a small New England village, bicycles weren't
>allowed at the school yards/buildings. I have no idea why, perhaps
>parking room? But that was the rule. So we walked, up to one mile to
>school - over a mile there were school busses - and it was "normal" to
>walk, my father walked to work, admittedly only in "good" weather,
>about a mile to work and a mile home at the end of the day.
>
>I don't suppose we noticed it at the time but from memory there were
>very few "fat"people in those days.

I wasn't talking about about how children get to elementary school at an
age of six and above, but about learning to ride and about getting to
kindergarten later, at an age between four and six years. How often did
you walk two children to kindergarden before work, you did say?

--
Bicycle helmets are the Bach flower remedies of traffic

On 11/2/2023 6:01 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:21:40 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> On 10/27/2023 12:36 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 10/27/2023 4:36 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be funny if it wasn't so concerning. Every time you list a few
>>>>> disadvantages of traffic separation, which is to restrict bicycle
>>>>> traffic to the roadsides, someone comes around and tells you about the
>>>>> advantages of riding along railroad tracks, boardwalks, or towpaths
>>>>> along canals amd rivers, i.e., where there are no intersections and
>>>>> junctions only on the opposite side.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in a medium-sized city with the Rhine flowing through it. I can
>>>>> walk from my home to the Rhine promenade in ten minutes, but just two
>>>>> kilometers from that point a climb to a plateau 100 meters higher
>>>>> begins. Even further up it becomes somewhat hilly. However, the
>>>>> discussion about bicycle infrastructure is dominated by people who never
>>>>> leave the Rhine plain, at least not by bicycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, the concept of fenced special routes, from which you can
>>>>> only rarely switch to the real road network and where crossing and
>>>>> turning are not even provided for, has also been tried to be implemented
>>>>> in areas where the prerequisite - an extensive geographical obstacle on
>>>>> one side, a river, a railway, a canal, a highway is not given. The
>>>>> consequences are terrible.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been many years since I cycled along the Rhine promenade instead
>>>>> walking there, but I have often cycled 50-100 km roundtrip, from 60
>>>>> meters above sea level up to 500 or 600 meters and back again, since I
>>>>> retired. The only way to do this quickly and safely was to avoid areas
>>>>> with cycling infrastructure. My commute to my workplace on the other
>>>>> side of the Rhine was similar, only 12 km each way, but about 150 meters
>>>>> of elevation gain, through former villages and a meandering network of
>>>>> roads, small and large - no river or railway in sight. By avoiding
>>>>> bicycling infrastructure and and by switching to a real racing bike I
>>>>> was able to reduce the time required from two to one hour. It was more
>>>>> fun too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That reflects my experience as well.
>>>
>>> London Embankment is and still is at times near gridlock so and pulsing ie
>>> stop go and so on. So while it’s possible to reach higher speeds on road
>>> the time from Westminster to tower seems broadly similar, and since you can
>>> hold high speeds, some folks will average 20mph over the few miles, helped
>>> by the cycleways width and that it has relatively few traffic lights if
>>> going directly on, which isn’t the case on the road.
>>>
>>> I do suspect can reach higher speeds on road as well draft effect from
>>> traffic and some of the tunnel dips, but you will hit both more traffic and
>>> traffic lights, looking at my times both pre and post the cycleway it’s a
>>> fairly tight cluster, ie nothing in it speed wise for a fast ish road bike.
>>
>> I think most bike commuters are not trying to average 20 mph, so the
>> ability to do that, if it exists, is not a very important advantage.
>
> I fail to understand that statement, for the following reason. Neither
> when commuting, nor while riding for other purposes - staying fit,
> having fun, getting groceries, explore your surroundings during a
> vacation - do I try to average a certain predetermined speed. Instead,
> I have a set of constraints to adjust to: personal ones as for example
> time budget, the bike acutally used, my endurance, my threshold power,
> external constraints like for example stops enforced by traffic as it
> exists, road quality, terrain profile, weather.
>
> In summary, my actuall speed has absolutely no relation to some
> predetermined average speed. Average speed is an emergent property of
> all the varying conditions during a concrete ride. Most probably, this
> works similar for other cyclists, just with different constraints and
> different results. Even more, when taking the the whole population of
> cyclists into account, it makes absolutely no sense to define a
> fictitious average speed of a cyclist for a traffic route, especially
> not if that is supposed to be the maximal speed to which one can limit
> one's considerations for traffic planning purposes.
>
> IMHO, this is the strongest argument against any kind of segregated bike
> facilities, these are build with a lot of assumptions that just do not
> hold for cyclists, almost everywhere. But see below.
>
>> I
>> also think that very few segregated bike facilities confer that
>> advantage.
>
> It isn't actual an advantage. To reduce the discourse to a comparatively
> slow pace of 20 mph (32 km/h) by not taking variance into account,
> caused by traffic lights, changing fitness levels, uphill and downhill
> gradients, tailwinds and headwinds means understanding the bicycle as
> some kind of underpowered motorized vehicle.
>
> Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened in the past: the so-called
> e-bike, specifically the European variant, was created by relabeling the
> former “motorized bicycle” ("Mofa") - a motorized bicycle, mandatory
> pedals, limited to a maximum of 25 km/h, with only minor changes as a
> bicycle de jure.
>
>
> That kind of E-Bike is technicall called "pedelec" in Germany, vélo à
> assistance électrique in french (formerly cylclomoteur)
> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomoteur>, but is more and more often
> simply called biycle ("Fahrrad") in common parlance.
>
> Usuping the term bicycle for a light electric motorcycle limited to 25
> km/h that enforces symbolic pedal movement means that we now have a
> motoriced vehicle called "biycle" that exactly fits that misconception:
> a vehicle allowing almost everybody to effordlessly ride about 20-22
> km/h, almost everywhere, independent of grade, wind, condition, surface
> and distance. A vehicle, that makes riding faster than 25 km/h a real
> challenge, even harder that riding a real bicycle.
>
>
>> It's certainly not part of the promotion spiel.
>
> That's for sure.
>
> But building a few wide, prestigious promenades for cyclists is part of
> the game. Planning and building excess capacity has always been part of
> traffic planning for motor vehicles. It's no problem to find some space
> that is no longer needed. Whether these swanky promenades are useful for
> cycling doesn't matter, nor does it matter whether they are used for
> pedestrian traffic, street cafes, garbage cans or something else, later.
> Take a few photos for advertising brochures, have the city post them on
> their websites, distribute them to underemployed traffic planners who
> aren't allowed to do real streets, and the job is done.
>
>>
>> The promotion spiel is "This will finally make bicycling SAFE!" or
>> worse, "Riding cannot be safe without this!" But lacking a shoreline,
>> freeway or railroad at one side, almost all sidepaths subject cyclists
>> to crossing conflicts, often exacerbated by weird intersection geometry.
>
> Exactly.
>
>
>
>> I mentioned the woman yesterday, looking at her cellphone as she pulled
>> out across our path. She obviously didn't think "I'm crossing a
>> bi-directional bike path. People could be coming from my right."
>
> One ours sons lives in Essen, where there is one of these cycling
> lighthouse projects, called RS1
> <https://www.essen.de/leben/mobilitaet/radfahren_1/rs_1.de.html>
>
> Don't try to look for the English version of that page, that web
> presence is almost as broken as RS1, use Firefox translate or some other
> translater to read it, if you can't read German. Read
> <https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-bicycle-autobahn-pedaling-nowhere/a-19155674>
> to get some impression, but take it with half a kilo of salt, this is
> marketing bullshit.
>
>
> Our son uses part of that "cycle highway" to get to and from work. Some
> parts of this bike path are paved, others are not. This detail is quite
> easy to see. Some sections seem to allow very fast riding, others do
> not. Problem: Most of the time you only know afterwards whether it is
> one type or the other.
>
> Last year, when riding back home in the dark, with good lights, on a
> part that seemed to allow fast riding, he almost crashed into a group of
> people. He said it was pure luck that he missed them; he saw absolutely
> nothing. What was it? Two astronomers who had chosen this spot on the
> bike path as the darkest available and had set up their stand there in
> the middle of the "cycle highway" to observe and photograph a
> Venus-Jupiter conjunction, and had therefore covered themselves and the
> tripod with a matt black blanket or tent.
>
> Now try that on a real Autobahn. Or better, don't. Not even when the
> climate is at stake.
>
>>
>> Those people who have been taught about such dangers probably will be on
>> the alert for such facility-generated complications. Those who believe
>> "It's a bike path! I'm safe!" will not be on the alert.
>
> And even those who are on the alert will find a trap (or the trap finds
> them), when they gamble often enough.
>
>>
>> But how weird to have to get extra knowledge to avoid special dangers on
>> a "finally be SAFE!" facility.
>
> Indeed. I've become a bit cynical about this over the years and
> sometimes put it this way in discussions:
>
> "I've gotten a bloody nose and scrapes often enough over the years to
> know and be able to avoid most bike path traps, but too often for
> wanting to continue to take those risks. On that note, good luck, you're
> going to need it."
>
>
+1
Written as only a lifetime rider would. I could not agree more!
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 08:28:51 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/2/2023 6:01 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:21:40 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>>
>>> On 10/27/2023 12:36 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>> On 10/27/2023 4:36 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be funny if it wasn't so concerning. Every time you list a few
>>>>>> disadvantages of traffic separation, which is to restrict bicycle
>>>>>> traffic to the roadsides, someone comes around and tells you about the
>>>>>> advantages of riding along railroad tracks, boardwalks, or towpaths
>>>>>> along canals amd rivers, i.e., where there are no intersections and
>>>>>> junctions only on the opposite side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I live in a medium-sized city with the Rhine flowing through it. I can
>>>>>> walk from my home to the Rhine promenade in ten minutes, but just two
>>>>>> kilometers from that point a climb to a plateau 100 meters higher
>>>>>> begins. Even further up it becomes somewhat hilly. However, the
>>>>>> discussion about bicycle infrastructure is dominated by people who never
>>>>>> leave the Rhine plain, at least not by bicycle.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unfortunately, the concept of fenced special routes, from which you can
>>>>>> only rarely switch to the real road network and where crossing and
>>>>>> turning are not even provided for, has also been tried to be implemented
>>>>>> in areas where the prerequisite - an extensive geographical obstacle on
>>>>>> one side, a river, a railway, a canal, a highway is not given. The
>>>>>> consequences are terrible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It has been many years since I cycled along the Rhine promenade instead
>>>>>> walking there, but I have often cycled 50-100 km roundtrip, from 60
>>>>>> meters above sea level up to 500 or 600 meters and back again, since I
>>>>>> retired. The only way to do this quickly and safely was to avoid areas
>>>>>> with cycling infrastructure. My commute to my workplace on the other
>>>>>> side of the Rhine was similar, only 12 km each way, but about 150 meters
>>>>>> of elevation gain, through former villages and a meandering network of
>>>>>> roads, small and large - no river or railway in sight. By avoiding
>>>>>> bicycling infrastructure and and by switching to a real racing bike I
>>>>>> was able to reduce the time required from two to one hour. It was more
>>>>>> fun too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That reflects my experience as well.
>>>>
>>>> London Embankment is and still is at times near gridlock so and pulsing ie
>>>> stop go and so on. So while it’s possible to reach higher speeds on road
>>>> the time from Westminster to tower seems broadly similar, and since you can
>>>> hold high speeds, some folks will average 20mph over the few miles, helped
>>>> by the cycleways width and that it has relatively few traffic lights if
>>>> going directly on, which isn’t the case on the road.
>>>>
>>>> I do suspect can reach higher speeds on road as well draft effect from
>>>> traffic and some of the tunnel dips, but you will hit both more traffic and
>>>> traffic lights, looking at my times both pre and post the cycleway it’s a
>>>> fairly tight cluster, ie nothing in it speed wise for a fast ish road bike.
>>>
>>> I think most bike commuters are not trying to average 20 mph, so the
>>> ability to do that, if it exists, is not a very important advantage.
>>
>> I fail to understand that statement, for the following reason. Neither
>> when commuting, nor while riding for other purposes - staying fit,
>> having fun, getting groceries, explore your surroundings during a
>> vacation - do I try to average a certain predetermined speed. Instead,
>> I have a set of constraints to adjust to: personal ones as for example
>> time budget, the bike acutally used, my endurance, my threshold power,
>> external constraints like for example stops enforced by traffic as it
>> exists, road quality, terrain profile, weather.
>>
>> In summary, my actuall speed has absolutely no relation to some
>> predetermined average speed. Average speed is an emergent property of
>> all the varying conditions during a concrete ride. Most probably, this
>> works similar for other cyclists, just with different constraints and
>> different results. Even more, when taking the the whole population of
>> cyclists into account, it makes absolutely no sense to define a
>> fictitious average speed of a cyclist for a traffic route, especially
>> not if that is supposed to be the maximal speed to which one can limit
>> one's considerations for traffic planning purposes.
>>
>> IMHO, this is the strongest argument against any kind of segregated bike
>> facilities, these are build with a lot of assumptions that just do not
>> hold for cyclists, almost everywhere. But see below.
>>
>>> I
>>> also think that very few segregated bike facilities confer that
>>> advantage.
>>
>> It isn't actual an advantage. To reduce the discourse to a comparatively
>> slow pace of 20 mph (32 km/h) by not taking variance into account,
>> caused by traffic lights, changing fitness levels, uphill and downhill
>> gradients, tailwinds and headwinds means understanding the bicycle as
>> some kind of underpowered motorized vehicle.
>>
>> Unfortunately, this is exactly what happened in the past: the so-called
>> e-bike, specifically the European variant, was created by relabeling the
>> former “motorized bicycle” ("Mofa") - a motorized bicycle, mandatory
>> pedals, limited to a maximum of 25 km/h, with only minor changes as a
>> bicycle de jure.
>>
>>
>> That kind of E-Bike is technicall called "pedelec" in Germany, vélo à
>> assistance électrique in french (formerly cylclomoteur)
>> <https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclomoteur>, but is more and more often
>> simply called biycle ("Fahrrad") in common parlance.
>>
>> Usuping the term bicycle for a light electric motorcycle limited to 25
>> km/h that enforces symbolic pedal movement means that we now have a
>> motoriced vehicle called "biycle" that exactly fits that misconception:
>> a vehicle allowing almost everybody to effordlessly ride about 20-22
>> km/h, almost everywhere, independent of grade, wind, condition, surface
>> and distance. A vehicle, that makes riding faster than 25 km/h a real
>> challenge, even harder that riding a real bicycle.
>>
>>
>>> It's certainly not part of the promotion spiel.
>>
>> That's for sure.
>>
>> But building a few wide, prestigious promenades for cyclists is part of
>> the game. Planning and building excess capacity has always been part of
>> traffic planning for motor vehicles. It's no problem to find some space
>> that is no longer needed. Whether these swanky promenades are useful for
>> cycling doesn't matter, nor does it matter whether they are used for
>> pedestrian traffic, street cafes, garbage cans or something else, later.
>> Take a few photos for advertising brochures, have the city post them on
>> their websites, distribute them to underemployed traffic planners who
>> aren't allowed to do real streets, and the job is done.
>>
>>>
>>> The promotion spiel is "This will finally make bicycling SAFE!" or
>>> worse, "Riding cannot be safe without this!" But lacking a shoreline,
>>> freeway or railroad at one side, almost all sidepaths subject cyclists
>>> to crossing conflicts, often exacerbated by weird intersection geometry.
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>>
>>
>>> I mentioned the woman yesterday, looking at her cellphone as she pulled
>>> out across our path. She obviously didn't think "I'm crossing a
>>> bi-directional bike path. People could be coming from my right."
>>
>> One ours sons lives in Essen, where there is one of these cycling
>> lighthouse projects, called RS1
>> <https://www.essen.de/leben/mobilitaet/radfahren_1/rs_1.de.html>
>>
>> Don't try to look for the English version of that page, that web
>> presence is almost as broken as RS1, use Firefox translate or some other
>> translater to read it, if you can't read German. Read
>> <https://www.dw.com/en/germanys-bicycle-autobahn-pedaling-nowhere/a-19155674>
>> to get some impression, but take it with half a kilo of salt, this is
>> marketing bullshit.
>>
>>
>> Our son uses part of that "cycle highway" to get to and from work. Some
>> parts of this bike path are paved, others are not. This detail is quite
>> easy to see. Some sections seem to allow very fast riding, others do
>> not. Problem: Most of the time you only know afterwards whether it is
>> one type or the other.
>>
>> Last year, when riding back home in the dark, with good lights, on a
>> part that seemed to allow fast riding, he almost crashed into a group of
>> people. He said it was pure luck that he missed them; he saw absolutely
>> nothing. What was it? Two astronomers who had chosen this spot on the
>> bike path as the darkest available and had set up their stand there in
>> the middle of the "cycle highway" to observe and photograph a
>> Venus-Jupiter conjunction, and had therefore covered themselves and the
>> tripod with a matt black blanket or tent.
>>
>> Now try that on a real Autobahn. Or better, don't. Not even when the
>> climate is at stake.
>>
>>>
>>> Those people who have been taught about such dangers probably will be on
>>> the alert for such facility-generated complications. Those who believe
>>> "It's a bike path! I'm safe!" will not be on the alert.
>>
>> And even those who are on the alert will find a trap (or the trap finds
>> them), when they gamble often enough.
>>
>>>
>>> But how weird to have to get extra knowledge to avoid special dangers on
>>> a "finally be SAFE!" facility.
>>
>> Indeed. I've become a bit cynical about this over the years and
>> sometimes put it this way in discussions:
>>
>> "I've gotten a bloody nose and scrapes often enough over the years to
>> know and be able to avoid most bike path traps, but too often for
>> wanting to continue to take those risks. On that note, good luck, you're
>> going to need it."
>>
>>
>+1
>Written as only a lifetime rider would. I could not agree more!

On 11/2/2023 7:01 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
>
> ... But building a few wide, prestigious promenades for cyclists is part of
> the game. Planning and building excess capacity has always been part of
> traffic planning for motor vehicles. It's no problem to find some space
> that is no longer needed. Whether these swanky promenades are useful for
> cycling doesn't matter, nor does it matter whether they are used for
> pedestrian traffic, street cafes, garbage cans or something else, later.

I don't know German laws, but "Whether these swanky promenades are
useful for cycling doesn't matter..." is precisely true in the U.S.

Many years ago I was recruited by my state's Bicycle Coordinator to be
on the statewide committee evaluating applications for bike facility
funding. The federal government (which supplied some of the funding)
required that the facilities had to be for transportation, not mere
recreation.

In reading through the piles of applications, I was astonished by the
mental gymnastics used to justify "transportation." There were many
terrible examples, but perhaps the worst was one jurisdiction that
wanted federal money to put a bikepath across a small lake in a park,
connecting the lake's center island to each shore. Supposedly for
transportation! And the lake already had a bike trail circling it.

Locally, our big metropark is in a years-long court battle to try to
take land from local farmers for a few miles of bike trail. I'm sure
part of their justification is "transportation," but the trail would run
from a town of ~700 to essentially nowhere. And an existing rural road,
newly paved and with _very_ low traffic is parallel and less than a mile
away.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 11/2/2023 10:36 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/2/2023 7:01 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>
>>
>> ... But building a few wide, prestigious promenades for
>> cyclists is part of
>> the game. Planning and building excess capacity has always
>> been part of
>> traffic planning for motor vehicles. It's no problem to
>> find some space
>> that is no longer needed. Whether these swanky promenades
>> are useful for
>> cycling doesn't matter, nor does it matter whether they
>> are used for
>> pedestrian traffic, street cafes, garbage cans or
>> something else, later.
>
> I don't know German laws, but "Whether these swanky
> promenades are useful for cycling doesn't matter..." is
> precisely true in the U.S.
>
> Many years ago I was recruited by my state's Bicycle
> Coordinator to be on the statewide committee evaluating
> applications for bike facility funding. The federal
> government (which supplied some of the funding) required
> that the facilities had to be for transportation, not mere
> recreation.
>
> In reading through the piles of applications, I was
> astonished by the mental gymnastics used to justify
> "transportation." There were many terrible examples, but
> perhaps the worst was one jurisdiction that wanted federal
> money to put a bikepath across a small lake in a park,
> connecting the lake's center island to each shore.
> Supposedly for transportation! And the lake already had a
> bike trail circling it.
>
> Locally, our big metropark is in a years-long court battle
> to try to take land from local farmers for a few miles of
> bike trail. I'm sure part of their justification is
> "transportation," but the trail would run from a town of
> ~700 to essentially nowhere. And an existing rural road,
> newly paved and with _very_ low traffic is parallel and less
> than a mile away.
>

Sadly 'bike path to nowhere' is a pale shadow of the more
lucrative kickback, ghost payroll and sweetheart contracts
racket:

https://redstate.com/jimthompson/2022/10/10/californias-113-billion-bullet-train-to-nowhere-n641116

At well over a hundred billion dollars and no plan for
completion nor an end date everyone in government wants in
on that project! As they say in Sacramento, 'laissez les bon
temps rouler!"
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Wolfgang Strobl <news5@mystrobl.de> wrote:
> Am Fri, 27 Oct 2023 22:21:40 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> On 10/27/2023 12:36 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>> On 10/27/2023 4:36 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be funny if it wasn't so concerning. Every time you list a few
>>>>> disadvantages of traffic separation, which is to restrict bicycle
>>>>> traffic to the roadsides, someone comes around and tells you about the
>>>>> advantages of riding along railroad tracks, boardwalks, or towpaths
>>>>> along canals amd rivers, i.e., where there are no intersections and
>>>>> junctions only on the opposite side.
>>>>>
>>>>> I live in a medium-sized city with the Rhine flowing through it. I can
>>>>> walk from my home to the Rhine promenade in ten minutes, but just two
>>>>> kilometers from that point a climb to a plateau 100 meters higher
>>>>> begins. Even further up it becomes somewhat hilly. However, the
>>>>> discussion about bicycle infrastructure is dominated by people who never
>>>>> leave the Rhine plain, at least not by bicycle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately, the concept of fenced special routes, from which you can
>>>>> only rarely switch to the real road network and where crossing and
>>>>> turning are not even provided for, has also been tried to be implemented
>>>>> in areas where the prerequisite - an extensive geographical obstacle on
>>>>> one side, a river, a railway, a canal, a highway is not given. The
>>>>> consequences are terrible.
>>>>>
>>>>> It has been many years since I cycled along the Rhine promenade instead
>>>>> walking there, but I have often cycled 50-100 km roundtrip, from 60
>>>>> meters above sea level up to 500 or 600 meters and back again, since I
>>>>> retired. The only way to do this quickly and safely was to avoid areas
>>>>> with cycling infrastructure. My commute to my workplace on the other
>>>>> side of the Rhine was similar, only 12 km each way, but about 150 meters
>>>>> of elevation gain, through former villages and a meandering network of
>>>>> roads, small and large - no river or railway in sight. By avoiding
>>>>> bicycling infrastructure and and by switching to a real racing bike I
>>>>> was able to reduce the time required from two to one hour. It was more
>>>>> fun too.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That reflects my experience as well.
>>>
>>> London Embankment is and still is at times near gridlock so and pulsing ie
>>> stop go and so on. So while it’s possible to reach higher speeds on road
>>> the time from Westminster to tower seems broadly similar, and since you can
>>> hold high speeds, some folks will average 20mph over the few miles, helped
>>> by the cycleways width and that it has relatively few traffic lights if
>>> going directly on, which isn’t the case on the road.
>>>
>>> I do suspect can reach higher speeds on road as well draft effect from
>>> traffic and some of the tunnel dips, but you will hit both more traffic and
>>> traffic lights, looking at my times both pre and post the cycleway it’s a
>>> fairly tight cluster, ie nothing in it speed wise for a fast ish road bike.
>>
>> I think most bike commuters are not trying to average 20 mph, so the
>> ability to do that, if it exists, is not a very important advantage.
>
> I fail to understand that statement, for the following reason. Neither
> when commuting, nor while riding for other purposes - staying fit,
> having fun, getting groceries, explore your surroundings during a
> vacation - do I try to average a certain predetermined speed. Instead,
> I have a set of constraints to adjust to: personal ones as for example
> time budget, the bike acutally used, my endurance, my threshold power,
> external constraints like for example stops enforced by traffic as it
> exists, road quality, terrain profile, weather.
>
> In summary, my actuall speed has absolutely no relation to some
> predetermined average speed. Average speed is an emergent property of
> all the varying conditions during a concrete ride. Most probably, this
> works similar for other cyclists, just with different constraints and
> different results. Even more, when taking the the whole population of
> cyclists into account, it makes absolutely no sense to define a
> fictitious average speed of a cyclist for a traffic route, especially
> not if that is supposed to be the maximal speed to which one can limit
> one's considerations for traffic planning purposes.
>
> IMHO, this is the strongest argument against any kind of segregated bike
> facilities, these are build with a lot of assumptions that just do not
> hold for cyclists, almost everywhere. But see below.

It’s more that when planning the london Embankment they knew that folks who
ride the 20/15 miles in a hr give or take, where at that time its
predominantly type of cyclists ie fast roadie types, and so the cycleway
would need to be able to cope with that, ie would need to be wide enough
and good sight lines and so on. It does now have a much broader mix of
cyclists now but certainly at commuting times, that type is common.

Very few parts of my commute would such speeds be wise, nor realistically
would it make much difference in terms of time taken to get to work.

But basically it’s about having wide cycleways which for various reasons
are good idea be that it allows overtaking, or various cargo bikes and
similar and so on.

>
*huge snips*
>>
>
>
Roger Merriman