If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.

And I have replaced it with a Specialized Allez aluminum frameset. The wheelset I have for it isn't as light as the Bontrager X-Lite but not bad either. Since I have the complete Dura Ace 10 speed group and a long arm 105 rear derailleur they will be set up identical and I will only have the BMC with a manual Campy 12 speed group.

The Allez was so cheap that the shipping and sales tax was more expensive so the Serotta is no loss.But I expect the man with the freewheel bike to have something to say about changing bikes since he is riding his original 30 pound lead weight.

It should be comical. "Oh you bad person, using more than one bike and all of them under 20 lbs." But it is fine that he lives in a place that is 96% white. And he has to "prepare" himself to venture out of the safety of an all-white neighborhood. Ohio is not a safe state. But from the safety of Poland,OH, he can pretend it is.

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.

Nice:
<https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
Last bicycle at bottom of the page.

How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
weight limit.

08/08/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
"The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
(209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
<https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
"Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
of 95kg."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
>
> Nice:
> <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
> Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
>
> How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
> If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
> not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
> sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
> procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
> probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
> stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
> when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
> weight limit.
>
> 08/08/2023
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
> "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
> (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
> <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
> "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
> of 95kg."
>

In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg

Not every day but not unknown either.

(anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
carbon too)

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:08:23 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
> >
> > Nice:
> > <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
> > Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
> >
> > How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
> > If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
> > not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
> > sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
> > procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
> > probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
> > stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
> > when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
> > weight limit.
> >
> > 08/08/2023
> > <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
> > "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
> > (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
> > <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
> > "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
> > of 95kg."
> >
> In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg
>
> Not every day but not unknown either.
>
> (anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
> carbon too)
>
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out..

On 1/30/2024 10:23 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:08:23 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
>>>
>>> Nice:
>>> <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
>>> Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
>>>
>>> How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
>>> If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
>>> not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
>>> sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
>>> procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
>>> probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
>>> stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
>>> when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
>>> weight limit.
>>>
>>> 08/08/2023
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
>>> "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
>>> (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
>>> <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
>>> "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
>>> of 95kg."
>>>
>> In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg
>>
>> Not every day but not unknown either.
>>
>> (anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
>> carbon too)
>>

> Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.

Sand blasting by a guy not familiar with bicycles and with
coarse media can also cut holes through bicycle frame tubes,
remove lug edge detail.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 20:08:20 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
>>
>> Nice:
>> <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
>> Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
>>
>> How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
>> If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
>> not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
>> sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
>> procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
>> probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
>> stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
>> when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
>> weight limit.
>>
>> 08/08/2023
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
>> "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
>> (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
>> <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
>> "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
>> of 95kg."

>In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
>http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg
>Not every day but not unknown either.

I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?

I also question whether the holes in the two photos are sufficiently
large to be considered dangerous to ride. Offhand, they seem to be
smaller than the holes used to install water bottle cages. 5mm bolt
in a 7mm diameter Rivnut hole. I wouldn't install a Rivnut, but I
would certainly consider brazing (not welding) the hole closed. Of
course, borescope inspection of the area around the hole and
ultrasonic metal thickness testing will determine if welding is a
suitable repair.

I also question the use of sand blasting. On an ultra light frame,
where material thickness and avoiding stress risers is important, any
manner of metal removal could be a problem. Sand also leaves a matt
finish which could look bad when painted. It should have been soda
blasted, which leaves a smoother finish. Soda blasting is easier to
clean up, is ecologically correct and provides a smoother finish that
doesn't require much polishing. Unlike sand, (baking) soda can be
dissolved in water, filtered, recrystalized and reused. A better way
would be to use paint remover but this is California, where the VOC
ban has reduced the available paint stripper chemicals to a few that
barely work.

"Don’t sandblast the powder!"
<https://www.kellybike.com/dont-sandblast-powder/>
"For those of you who are sending your bike out to be refinished
(powder or wet) make damn sure that your painter or powdercoating
person understands that your frame is of thin metal and should be
chemically stripped - not sand blasted."

>(anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
>carbon too)

Looks like the forks and seat stays are carbon fiber, but the top tube
and the rest of the frame is steel:
<https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
<https://www.sefiles.net/merchant/190/images/site/fierteti05.jpg>
I don't know the standard procedure but I suspect that if one major
defect is found in the top tube, it might be a good idea to inspect
the rest of the frame for similar or related defects.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 1/30/2024 12:04 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 20:08:20 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
>>>
>>> Nice:
>>> <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
>>> Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
>>>
>>> How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
>>> If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
>>> not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
>>> sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
>>> procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
>>> probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
>>> stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
>>> when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
>>> weight limit.
>>>
>>> 08/08/2023
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
>>> "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
>>> (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
>>> <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
>>> "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
>>> of 95kg."
>
>> In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg
>> Not every day but not unknown either.
>
> I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
> haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
> My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
> was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?
>
> I also question whether the holes in the two photos are sufficiently
> large to be considered dangerous to ride. Offhand, they seem to be
> smaller than the holes used to install water bottle cages. 5mm bolt
> in a 7mm diameter Rivnut hole. I wouldn't install a Rivnut, but I
> would certainly consider brazing (not welding) the hole closed. Of
> course, borescope inspection of the area around the hole and
> ultrasonic metal thickness testing will determine if welding is a
> suitable repair.
>
> I also question the use of sand blasting. On an ultra light frame,
> where material thickness and avoiding stress risers is important, any
> manner of metal removal could be a problem. Sand also leaves a matt
> finish which could look bad when painted. It should have been soda
> blasted, which leaves a smoother finish. Soda blasting is easier to
> clean up, is ecologically correct and provides a smoother finish that
> doesn't require much polishing. Unlike sand, (baking) soda can be
> dissolved in water, filtered, recrystalized and reused. A better way
> would be to use paint remover but this is California, where the VOC
> ban has reduced the available paint stripper chemicals to a few that
> barely work.
>
> "Don’t sandblast the powder!"
> <https://www.kellybike.com/dont-sandblast-powder/>
> "For those of you who are sending your bike out to be refinished
> (powder or wet) make damn sure that your painter or powdercoating
> person understands that your frame is of thin metal and should be
> chemically stripped - not sand blasted."
>
>> (anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
>> carbon too)
>
> Looks like the forks and seat stays are carbon fiber, but the top tube
> and the rest of the frame is steel:
> <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
> <https://www.sefiles.net/merchant/190/images/site/fierteti05.jpg>
> I don't know the standard procedure but I suspect that if one major
> defect is found in the top tube, it might be a good idea to inspect
> the rest of the frame for similar or related defects.
>

Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
residue!

There is no paint remover outside California either. After
two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
ingredient, methylene chloride.

In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
actually open points. That's a tube replacement.

p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
Kunich's specific current ride.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 08:23:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did?

Why does someone who chronically gets everything wrong continue to
proclaim his expertise in literally everything?

Incidentally, I've noticed that there's a relationship between giving
advice and accepting advice. Those who do not accept advice generally
have great difficulties trying to work around the embarrassment of
admitting that they don't know everything. That's you, Tom. Have you
fixed the minor typo in the current version of your resume where you
confused XT with XP? You probably never will because you didn't find
the mistake while I did. Speaking only for myself, I avoid taking
advice from someone who doesn't know how to accept advice (or who
doesn't know how to admit that he is wrong).

Incidentally, I've had some bad experiences with automotive
sandblasting and removing Bondo autobody filler (styrene). When
working with thin metal, I've had better luck with a propane torch.
The trick is to not overheat the plastic. It will burn quite nicely.

"Bondo Removal"
<https://www.hagerty.com/media/maintenance-and-tech/bondo-removal/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:28:11 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
>current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
>residue!

I hadn't heard of that, but it seems like a good idea.

In around 1980, we had a local paint and sand blasting shop. The
owner invented a method of separating the used blasting sand from the
paint and metal particles. It used a centrifuge and a few coarse
filters. It wasn't very good at removing metal dust and rust, but
worked well for removing paint. I have no idea what happened to it.

>There is no paint remover outside California either. After
>two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
>and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
>ingredient, methylene chloride.

Someone I barely remember worked in a furniture stripper ship. He had
protective clothing and breathing apparatus that resembled an old hard
hat diving suit. One day, we noticed that he hadn't appeared at the
usual gathering place for several months. Something had gone wrong
with the suit and the methylene chloride probably killed him.

>In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
>remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
>actually open points. That's a tube replacement.

In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage.

>p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
>Kunich's specific current ride.

I was commenting on Tom's latest bicycle problem.

I'm still wondering about the use of Bondo on an ultra light frame.
The frame had previously been painted by someone who knew about the
hold and used Bondo to "fix" the problem. I don't see the logic in
going through all that trouble, just to unload a frame that needs a
new top tube. The original listing was Sept 25, 2023. Unfortunately,
it disappeared from eBay sold items archive:

"Serotta Fierte 58cm - 60cm frame, steel w/carbon stays. Needs
refinishing":
<https://www.ebay.com/itm/394747369993>
The listing ended yesterday, Mon Sep 25 at 2:35 AM.

Also:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/fWspzUiZ_po/m/XGruj9XQAAAJ>
Oddly, it says "Needs refinishing", which suggests that it had been
heavily used and probably had NOT been repainted. Also, the seller
didn't notice the hole and willing to risk riding it. In order to
explain the presence of Bondo under the paint, the seller would have
had to paint the frame AFTER the Bondo was applied and specifically to
make the frame sellable on eBay. Painting to hide the Bondo and
"needs refinishing" makes no sense.

My guess(tm) is that the alleged hole in the frame and Bondo were
fabrications intended to make Tom appear to be a victim. For what
purpose, I have no idea.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 1/30/2024 10:04 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

> I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
> haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
> My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
> was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?

No, you want more rust, or at least the appearance of rust.

I recently fixed up my daughters old UCSC bike, an old Specialized
Expedition hybrid (not the classic Expedition touring bicycle). It had
been pretty abused while in Santa Cruz, with a lot of scraped off paint.

I bought can of spray-on "rust effect" "Rust EFFECT spray creates the
illusion of rust and oxidation" and tried to make it look even worse by
spraying the areas where the paint had been scraped off. It will be
parked outside in San Francisco. We'll see how long the bike lasts
before being stripped or stolen, but it looks pretty awful, other than
the new tires and new pedals. It lasted four years in Santa Cruz pretty
well, in fact the only part stolen was half of a Mirrycle mirror
(wondering what the thief did with that).

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 8:49:52 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 10:23 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:08:23 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> >> On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
> >>>
> >>> Nice:
> >>> <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
> >>> Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
> >>>
> >>> How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
> >>> If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
> >>> not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
> >>> sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
> >>> procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
> >>> probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
> >>> stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
> >>> when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
> >>> weight limit.
> >>>
> >>> 08/08/2023
> >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
> >>> "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
> >>> (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
> >>> <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
> >>> "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
> >>> of 95kg."
> >>>
> >> In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
> >> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg
> >>
> >> Not every day but not unknown either.
> >>
> >> (anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
> >> carbon too)
> >>
> > Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.
> Sand blasting by a guy not familiar with bicycles and with
> coarse media can also cut holes through bicycle frame tubes,
> remove lug edge detail.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 12:05:06 PM UTC-8, sms wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 10:04 AM, Jeff Lieber> > I don't have a problem with the presence of rust or rust holes. I
> > haven't seen any in bicycles, but plenty in house and marine plumbing.
> > My problem was how did Tom or his sand blaster determine that there
> > was rust involved when it was covered with Bondo?
> No, you want more rust, or at least the appearance of rust.
>
> I recently fixed up my daughters old UCSC bike, an old Specialized
> Expedition hybrid (not the classic Expedition touring bicycle). It had
> been pretty abused while in Santa Cruz, with a lot of scraped off paint.
>
> I bought can of spray-on "rust effect" "Rust EFFECT spray creates the
> illusion of rust and oxidation" and tried to make it look even worse by
> spraying the areas where the paint had been scraped off. It will be
> parked outside in San Francisco. We'll see how long the bike lasts
> before being stripped or stolen, but it looks pretty awful, other than
> the new tires and new pedals. It lasted four years in Santa Cruz pretty
> well, in fact the only part stolen was half of a Mirrycle mirror
> (wondering what the thief did with that).
Leaving a bike out to be stolen is a unique idea. As for Liebermann with his usual stupiddity = when there is a hole in the tubing and free rust rattling around inside of the top tube one might get the idea that there was some damage if he was capable of putting two thoughts together.

I

On 1/30/2024 1:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:28:11 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
>> current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
>> residue!
>
> I hadn't heard of that, but it seems like a good idea.
>
> In around 1980, we had a local paint and sand blasting shop. The
> owner invented a method of separating the used blasting sand from the
> paint and metal particles. It used a centrifuge and a few coarse
> filters. It wasn't very good at removing metal dust and rust, but
> worked well for removing paint. I have no idea what happened to it.
>
>> There is no paint remover outside California either. After
>> two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
>> and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
>> ingredient, methylene chloride.
>
> Someone I barely remember worked in a furniture stripper ship. He had
> protective clothing and breathing apparatus that resembled an old hard
> hat diving suit. One day, we noticed that he hadn't appeared at the
> usual gathering place for several months. Something had gone wrong
> with the suit and the methylene chloride probably killed him.
>
>> In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
>> remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
>> actually open points. That's a tube replacement.
>
> In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage.
>
>> p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
>> Kunich's specific current ride.
>
> I was commenting on Tom's latest bicycle problem.
>
> I'm still wondering about the use of Bondo on an ultra light frame.
> The frame had previously been painted by someone who knew about the
> hold and used Bondo to "fix" the problem. I don't see the logic in
> going through all that trouble, just to unload a frame that needs a
> new top tube. The original listing was Sept 25, 2023. Unfortunately,
> it disappeared from eBay sold items archive:
>
> "Serotta Fierte 58cm - 60cm frame, steel w/carbon stays. Needs
> refinishing":
> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/394747369993>
> The listing ended yesterday, Mon Sep 25 at 2:35 AM.
>
> Also:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/fWspzUiZ_po/m/XGruj9XQAAAJ>
> Oddly, it says "Needs refinishing", which suggests that it had been
> heavily used and probably had NOT been repainted. Also, the seller
> didn't notice the hole and willing to risk riding it. In order to
> explain the presence of Bondo under the paint, the seller would have
> had to paint the frame AFTER the Bondo was applied and specifically to
> make the frame sellable on eBay. Painting to hide the Bondo and
> "needs refinishing" makes no sense.
>
> My guess(tm) is that the alleged hole in the frame and Bondo were
> fabrications intended to make Tom appear to be a victim. For what
> purpose, I have no idea.

> "In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage."
>

I once found (heard it first!) a pinhole leak in a steam
pipe in the dead of winter. I put a ball bearing in it and a
stainless hose clamp around the pipe which lasted until the
end of my lease. Seemed like a better idea than the endless
conversation with the landlord, long repair process with no
heat and the frightening possibility of a building inspector.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:23:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>As for Liebermann with his usual stupiddity = when there is a hole in the tubing and free rust rattling around inside of the top tube one might get the idea that there was some damage if he was capable of putting two thoughts together.

I see. You bought the frame on eBay in Sept 2023. You left it
hanging around for 4 months, didn't inspect the it, and never noticed
the rust hole or "free rust rattling around inside". You then sent it
out to be sand blasted and painted. Only then did you discover the
Bondo and rust problem. You must be terribly non-observant and
amazingly trusting of the eBay vendor to receive the frame without
inspecting it. Also strange is that the previous owner would close
the hole with Bondo without cleaning out the "free rust rattling
around inside" the top tube.

If you're going to lie, at least make your lies reasonable, logical
and believable. As your self appointed personal fact checker, you're
making this far too easy. It's also becoming boring because
everything you write seems to be a lie. Maybe try something less
creative and closer to the truth.

Perhaps some light reading will help:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+lie+effectively>

"Top Ten Secrets of Effective Liars"
<https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/extreme-fear/201005/top-ten-secrets-effective-liars>
"How to lie and get away with it"

Your biggest problem is "#5 Keep your facts straight". You're
expected to use known facts to substantiate your lies. That doesn't
work when your substantiating facts are also lies. Think about how
advertisements for miracle cures, amazing inventions, and magic
remedies work. They all start with a series of generally accepted and
believable facts. Once the viewer is hypnotized into agreement by a
endless succession of agreeable facts, the announcer casually adds an
amazing claim on behalf of his sponsor, and immediately continues with
more agreeable facts. The amazing claim is the payload and all the
facts are of little importance. You can probably structure your
"amazing facts" presentations to follow something similar. I could
offer some specific suggestions, but since you have chronically
ignored my suggestions, I'll save myself the effort.

Gone to Safeway for some pre-storm panic shopping. The weather
forecast looks like the beginning of 40 days and 40 nights of rain.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.

Why are you powder coated the bicycle? Powder coating is much heavier
than ordinary paint. With an ultralight bicycle, every milligram is
precious.

<https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=402>
"normal paint adds about 35-45 grams to a frame only( 50-54 cm.)
powder coat will be 2-3X that"

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 08:23:37 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, January 29, 2024 at 6:08:23?PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/29/2024 7:59 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2024 13:55:17 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> > <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> If you remember, I bought a Serotta Fierte to build up as a superlight as a second bike to the Basso for winter use. After I had it sandblasted I discovered that the Fierte had been rusted out under the top tube at the seat tube It had been filled in with Bondo and painted over. Now, the area was quite small but I would rather not have a bike that could bend the top tube under severe stress. So I will get rid of it.It will be perfectly safe on the flats where most people ride.
>> >
>> > Nice:
>> > <https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm>
>> > Last bicycle at bottom of the page.
>> >
>> > How could you see the "rusted out" area if it was filled with Bondo?
>> > If Bondo had been properly sealed around the damaged area, you would
>> > not have seen any rust. Since you discovered the rust problem after
>> > sandblasting, I assume that it was ready to paint when you aborted the
>> > procedure and declared the frame to be hazardous. That's also
>> > probably true for most "superlight" bicycles when ridden "under severe
>> > stress". Yet, you were willing to accept the risk of frame failure
>> > when you purchased a Ridley Helium where you exceeded its recommended
>> > weight limit.
>> >
>> > 08/08/2023
>> > <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/8ftji7STU0w/m/T8G8ie3rAgAJ>
>> > "The Ridley helium has a maximum rider weight of 95kg
>> > (209lbs). How close are you to the limit?"
>> > <https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ridley-helium-slx-is-the-lightweight-race-bike-of-your-dreams/>
>> > "Unsurprisingly, such a lightweight frameset has a rider weight limit
>> > of 95kg."
>> >
>> In fairness, that sort of problem pops up with some regularity:
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/coln14b.jpg
>> http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfromthepast/3ra99h.jpg
>>
>> Not every day but not unknown either.
>>
>> (anticipating next question, yes, cracks or delamination in
>> carbon too)
>>
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>Why does someone that knows nothing at all about bikes continue to expertise us all as if he did? Sand blasting removes all of the paint and in this case the bondo as well making it evident and the sandblaster pointing it out.

I hope that when you say "sand Blasting" you actually mean something
different - "Bead Blasting" for actual, as "sand" blasting is a rather
severe method of cleaning, especially on something like thin steel
tubing. Not normally ever used on aircraft parts, for example.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/30/2024 4:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:17:04 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It was a place using very fine sand and very familiar with media that can be destroyed since they are a powder coater.
>
> Why are you powder coated the bicycle? Powder coating is much heavier
> than ordinary paint. With an ultralight bicycle, every milligram is
> precious.
>
> <https://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=402>
> "normal paint adds about 35-45 grams to a frame only( 50-54 cm.)
> powder coat will be 2-3X that"

True, in my experience. I recently had my touring bike powder coated. It
came back several ounces heavier. I thought I'd written down the weight
difference, but I couldn't find it right now.

Not that it matters much to me. If I want less weight, I'll start with
my body. I'm lighter now than in the past few years, but I'm still
heavier than I was at my fastest, years ago.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 3:29:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/30/2024 1:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:28:11 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
> >> current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
> >> residue!
> >
> > I hadn't heard of that, but it seems like a good idea.
> >
> > In around 1980, we had a local paint and sand blasting shop. The
> > owner invented a method of separating the used blasting sand from the
> > paint and metal particles. It used a centrifuge and a few coarse
> > filters. It wasn't very good at removing metal dust and rust, but
> > worked well for removing paint. I have no idea what happened to it.
> >
> >> There is no paint remover outside California either. After
> >> two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
> >> and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
> >> ingredient, methylene chloride.
> >
> > Someone I barely remember worked in a furniture stripper ship. He had
> > protective clothing and breathing apparatus that resembled an old hard
> > hat diving suit. One day, we noticed that he hadn't appeared at the
> > usual gathering place for several months. Something had gone wrong
> > with the suit and the methylene chloride probably killed him.
> >
> >> In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
> >> remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
> >> actually open points. That's a tube replacement.
> >
> > In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage.
> >
> >> p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
> >> Kunich's specific current ride.
> >
> > I was commenting on Tom's latest bicycle problem.
> >
> > I'm still wondering about the use of Bondo on an ultra light frame.
> > The frame had previously been painted by someone who knew about the
> > hold and used Bondo to "fix" the problem. I don't see the logic in
> > going through all that trouble, just to unload a frame that needs a
> > new top tube. The original listing was Sept 25, 2023. Unfortunately,
> > it disappeared from eBay sold items archive:
> >
> > "Serotta Fierte 58cm - 60cm frame, steel w/carbon stays. Needs
> > refinishing":
> > <https://www.ebay.com/itm/394747369993>
> > The listing ended yesterday, Mon Sep 25 at 2:35 AM.
> >
> > Also:
> > <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/fWspzUiZ_po/m/XGruj9XQAAAJ>
> > Oddly, it says "Needs refinishing", which suggests that it had been
> > heavily used and probably had NOT been repainted. Also, the seller
> > didn't notice the hole and willing to risk riding it. In order to
> > explain the presence of Bondo under the paint, the seller would have
> > had to paint the frame AFTER the Bondo was applied and specifically to
> > make the frame sellable on eBay. Painting to hide the Bondo and
> > "needs refinishing" makes no sense.
> >
> > My guess(tm) is that the alleged hole in the frame and Bondo were
> > fabrications intended to make Tom appear to be a victim. For what
> > purpose, I have no idea.
>
>
> > "In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage."
> >
> I once found (heard it first!) a pinhole leak in a steam
> pipe in the dead of winter. I put a ball bearing in it and a
> stainless hose clamp around the pipe which lasted until the
> end of my lease. Seemed like a better idea than the endless
> conversation with the landlord, long repair process with no
> heat and the frightening possibility of a building inspector.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Genius repair solution, how did you think of that?
Must have been a fairly low pressure steam system, but still.

We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

On 1/31/2024 7:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 3:29:50 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/30/2024 1:22 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2024 12:28:11 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yes to your sandblast comments. Soda, glass bead or our
>>>> current service which does dry ice (CO2) media blast. No
>>>> residue!
>>>
>>> I hadn't heard of that, but it seems like a good idea.
>>>
>>> In around 1980, we had a local paint and sand blasting shop. The
>>> owner invented a method of separating the used blasting sand from the
>>> paint and metal particles. It used a centrifuge and a few coarse
>>> filters. It wasn't very good at removing metal dust and rust, but
>>> worked well for removing paint. I have no idea what happened to it.
>>>
>>>> There is no paint remover outside California either. After
>>>> two teenagers applied gallons of stripper in small garages
>>>> and died (separate incidents)the EPA banned the active
>>>> ingredient, methylene chloride.
>>>
>>> Someone I barely remember worked in a furniture stripper ship. He had
>>> protective clothing and breathing apparatus that resembled an old hard
>>> hat diving suit. One day, we noticed that he hadn't appeared at the
>>> usual gathering place for several months. Something had gone wrong
>>> with the suit and the methylene chloride probably killed him.
>>>
>>>> In the two images I linked, there was not a lot of tube
>>>> remaining; the corrosion problem was larger than the
>>>> actually open points. That's a tube replacement.
>>>
>>> In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage.
>>>
>>>> p.s. I was commenting on carbon bicycles generally, not Mr
>>>> Kunich's specific current ride.
>>>
>>> I was commenting on Tom's latest bicycle problem.
>>>
>>> I'm still wondering about the use of Bondo on an ultra light frame.
>>> The frame had previously been painted by someone who knew about the
>>> hold and used Bondo to "fix" the problem. I don't see the logic in
>>> going through all that trouble, just to unload a frame that needs a
>>> new top tube. The original listing was Sept 25, 2023. Unfortunately,
>>> it disappeared from eBay sold items archive:
>>>
>>> "Serotta Fierte 58cm - 60cm frame, steel w/carbon stays. Needs
>>> refinishing":
>>> <https://www.ebay.com/itm/394747369993>
>>> The listing ended yesterday, Mon Sep 25 at 2:35 AM.
>>>
>>> Also:
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/fWspzUiZ_po/m/XGruj9XQAAAJ>
>>> Oddly, it says "Needs refinishing", which suggests that it had been
>>> heavily used and probably had NOT been repainted. Also, the seller
>>> didn't notice the hole and willing to risk riding it. In order to
>>> explain the presence of Bondo under the paint, the seller would have
>>> had to paint the frame AFTER the Bondo was applied and specifically to
>>> make the frame sellable on eBay. Painting to hide the Bondo and
>>> "needs refinishing" makes no sense.
>>>
>>> My guess(tm) is that the alleged hole in the frame and Bondo were
>>> fabrications intended to make Tom appear to be a victim. For what
>>> purpose, I have no idea.
>>
>>
>>> "In plumbing, that's also the general rule for corrosion damage."
>>>
>> I once found (heard it first!) a pinhole leak in a steam
>> pipe in the dead of winter. I put a ball bearing in it and a
>> stainless hose clamp around the pipe which lasted until the
>> end of my lease. Seemed like a better idea than the endless
>> conversation with the landlord, long repair process with no
>> heat and the frightening possibility of a building inspector.
>> --
>> Andrew Muzi
>> a...@yellowjersey.org
>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
>
> Genius repair solution, how did you think of that?
> Must have been a fairly low pressure steam system, but still.
>
> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

Relatively modern (1960s?) gas system upgraded from coal
(new firebox & boiler, same piping and radiators) at 8~12 psi.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>
> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.

I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.

It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wed Jan 31 11:07:24 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >
> > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>
> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>
> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

As you say, there's little difference though the one pipe system usually used copper pipes and lasted a long time while the two pipe system was earlier and used iron pipes and rusted out. Air Force barracks used coal and steam heat.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com> writes:

> On Wed Jan 31 11:07:24 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >
>> > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though
>> > because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps
>> > running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I
>> > ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think.
>> > It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping
>> > and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam
>> > condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very
>> > efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>>
>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>>
>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
> As you say, there's little difference though the one pipe system
> usually used copper pipes and lasted a long time while the two pipe
> system was earlier and used iron pipes and rusted out. Air Force
> barracks used coal and steam heat.

Properly maintained one- and two-pipe steam systems use black iron pipe.
The temperature swings in a steam system are large enough to cause
soldered copper joints to eventually fail.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 1:14:00 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > On Wed Jan 31 11:07:24 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >> >
> >> > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though
> >> > because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps
> >> > running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I
> >> > ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think.
> >> > It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping
> >> > and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam
> >> > condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very
> >> > efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >>
> >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>
> >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >
> > As you say, there's little difference though the one pipe system
> > usually used copper pipes and lasted a long time while the two pipe
> > system was earlier and used iron pipes and rusted out. Air Force
> > barracks used coal and steam heat.
> Properly maintained one- and two-pipe steam systems use black iron pipe.
> The temperature swings in a steam system are large enough to cause
> soldered copper joints to eventually fail.

As I said, modern systems use copper pipe. The temperature swing is at MOST 100 degrees C and that will not cause a proper solder jointed joint to fail since the melting point of solder is about 183 C. Also the latest radiators are quite efficient at getting ride of heat and that means that in single pipe systems there is a wall of water below the steam point on the tube during operation. Iron pipes are heavy and eventually rust through. My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 1:14:00 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@yahoo.com> writes:
>>
>> > On Wed Jan 31 11:07:24 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though
>> >> > because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps
>> >> > running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I
>> >> > ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think.
>> >> > It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping
>> >> > and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam
>> >> > condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very
>> >> > efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>> >>
>> >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>> >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>> >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>> >>
>> >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>> >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >>
>> >
>> > As you say, there's little difference though the one pipe system
>> > usually used copper pipes and lasted a long time while the two pipe
>> > system was earlier and used iron pipes and rusted out. Air Force
>> > barracks used coal and steam heat.
>> Properly maintained one- and two-pipe steam systems use black iron pipe.
>> The temperature swings in a steam system are large enough to cause
>> soldered copper joints to eventually fail.
>
> As I said, modern systems use copper pipe. The temperature swing is at
> MOST 100 degrees C and that will not cause a proper solder jointed
> joint to fail since the melting point of solder is about 183 C. Also
> the latest radiators are quite efficient at getting ride of heat and
> that means that in single pipe systems there is a wall of water below
> the steam point on the tube during operation. Iron pipes are heavy and
> eventually rust through. My house is 75 years old and needs new water
> pipes.

Not much new in steam radiators, most buy them used for better quality,
lower price, and nicer appearance. Copper joints fail due to work
hardening over time.

Copper is certainly better for water pipes, if you have black iron or,
especially, galvanized you should replace them. For steam heat copper
is wrong.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:58:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.

Zillow says your house was built in 1955 which makes it 69 years old.
Other sites (Realtor.com, Trulia, Spokio, etc) all show either 1955 or
1956.

"Galvanized iron pipes"
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/galvanized-iron-pipes>

You might want to test for lead contamination, which might explain
where your amazing dates and facts originated:
"Water Service Line Inspection Flyer"
<https://www.ebmud.com/download_file/force/22331/2926?Water_Service_Line_Inspection_Flyer.pdf>
"... if customer-owned plumbing (for example, the customer house line)
is made of galvanized iron, some lead from the original lead service
line may still be present on the wall of the galvanized pipe. Small
quantities of this lead could be released back into the water over
time."

Note that this is only for water lines that had previously used pipes
and fixtures containing lead and which were later replaced with
un-leaded plumbing.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558