On Wed Feb 14 19:36:01 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 4:09:05PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> > > >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> > > >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> > > >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> > > >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > > > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> > > Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> > > very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> > > moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> > > problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> > > un-piped cold air returns.)
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1
>
> Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.
>
> Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

That was not meant as an insult but information. Hot air and steam are two entirely different things. Since you don't know the difference - you don't get pipe "hammer" from forced air heating.

On Thu Feb 15 20:20:44 2024 Roger Merriman wrote:
> AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> > On 2/15/2024 11:27 AM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> >> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though
> >>>>>>> because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps
> >>>>>>> running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran
> >>>>>>> into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was
> >>>>>>> single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no
> >>>>>>> traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and
> >>>>>>> ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but
> >>>>>>> after 70 years was still going strong.
> >>>>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >>>>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >>>>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >>>>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> >>>>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
> >>>>> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18
> >>>>> inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold
> >>>>> air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans.
> >>>>> I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> >>>> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> >>>> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> >>>> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> >>>> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> >>>> un-piped cold air returns.)
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>> Frank,
> >>> In hindsight I'm sure you're right.
> >>>
> >>> This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust
> >>> to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very
> >>> large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from
> >>> a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a
> >>> sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.
> >>>
> >>> My bad, and good catch.
> >>
> >>
> >> Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
> >> method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
> >> the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
> >> in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
> >> simply grates in the first floor ceiling.
> >>
> >> There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
> >> located.
> >>
> >> Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
> >> floor.
> >
> > My 1904 house had warm air ducts a foot off the floor on the
> > walls and (fewer) cold returns in the floors.
>
> Seems to be a North American thing, ie to use warm air ducts rather than
> radiators which is the norm in Europe, do get heated floors in some as
> well.
>
> Roger Merriman
>

I think it is just age because New York ans San Francisco appartment buildings all had radiators and the older buildings were designed by European engineers.

On Thu Feb 15 21:17:04 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/15/2024 4:13 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Thursday, February 15, 2024 at 12:20:47?PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>> On 2/15/2024 11:27 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> >>>> <timoth...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though
> >>>>>>>>> because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps
> >>>>>>>>> running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran
> >>>>>>>>> into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was
> >>>>>>>>> single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no
> >>>>>>>>> traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and
> >>>>>>>>> ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but
> >>>>>>>>> after 70 years was still going strong.
> >>>>>>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >>>>>>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >>>>>>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >>>>>>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> >>>>>>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
> >>>>>>> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18
> >>>>>>> inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold
> >>>>>>> air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans.
> >>>>>>> I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> >>>>>> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> >>>>>> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> >>>>>> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> >>>>>> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> >>>>>> un-piped cold air returns.)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank,
> >>>>> In hindsight I'm sure you're right.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust
> >>>>> to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very
> >>>>> large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from
> >>>>> a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a
> >>>>> sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> My bad, and good catch.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
> >>>> method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
> >>>> the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
> >>>> in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
> >>>> simply grates in the first floor ceiling.
> >>>>
> >>>> There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
> >>>> located.
> >>>>
> >>>> Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
> >>>> floor.
> >>>
> >>> My 1904 house had warm air ducts a foot off the floor on the
> >>> walls and (fewer) cold returns in the floors.
> >> Seems to be a North American thing, ie to use warm air ducts rather than
> >> radiators which is the norm in Europe, do get heated floors in some as
> >> well.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > I did another 35 miles this morning and stopped at a Starbucks. That building used to be a bank and has a two story ceiling. I'm sitting there drinking my coffee and looking up and on the second story is a gas central heating unit and the hot air ducts. They are pointing horizontal on the second story They pulled the ceiling off of the bank and all of the hot air goes to the top of the building. This is what happens when you use illegal aliens to do all of your work because the experienced American companies have been chased out of the state with the communist government here.
>
> Thank you for the right wing rant, Tom. It's exactly as informative as
> usual.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Only you would call a clear description of some really scewed up engineering as a rant. Liebermann would tell us that it was the correct way to do things and Flunky would agree with you because he is in love.

On Wed Feb 14 19:36:01 2024 Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 4:09:05PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> > > >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> > > >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> > > >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> > > >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > > > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> > > Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> > > very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> > > moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> > > problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> > > un-piped cold air returns.)
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1
>
> Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.
>
> Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!
>
> - Frank Krygowski

Well, if there is one thing that you know a lot about it is hot air. But you certainly haven't any idea of the difference in density causing air currents to circulate.

On Wed Feb 14 17:10:56 2024 Radey Shouman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:10:14?AM UTC-8, Tim R wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed
> >> > > though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the
> >> > > traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But
> >> > > later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I
> >> > > think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation
> >> > > piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so
> >> > > steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not
> >> > > very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >> > I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >> > steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >> > of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >> >
> >> > It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >> > various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > - Frank Krygowski
> >> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually
> >> oil burning.
> >> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
> >> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be
> >> 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and
> >> cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air
> >> fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in
> >> engineering school.
> >
> > Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment
> > buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted
> > out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before
> > the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned
> > about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself
>
> My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
> piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
> about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
> boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
> new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.
>
> Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
> furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
> to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
> it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
> radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.
>
> > apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
> > be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
> > heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
> > efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
> > child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
> > coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
> > be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
> > flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
> > long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
> > lights and a fully gas stove.
>
> --

I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.

Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
is that suppose to work?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>

I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
<https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.

Depressing News:
"US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
$14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
"US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
to a Japanese company".
<https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>

Got any more amazing facts?

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:42:26 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out
like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel
from US Steel Corporation. They had a dozen or more mills here.
Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women
workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of
California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in
December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no
doubt use it to build housing. It is directly on the border with
Fremont, Niles district.
>
>Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>is that suppose to work?
><https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>
>I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
><https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>
>Depressing News:
>"US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>$14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>"US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>to a Japanese company".
><https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>

I think you missed a beat there. Tommy wrote "Richmond Ship Works".
Try a search on that name...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Shipyards
"The four Richmond Shipyards, in the city of Richmond, California,
United States, were run by Permanente Metals and part of the Kaiser
Shipyards. In World War II, Richmond built more ships than any other
shipyard, turning out as many as three ships in a single day"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:30:18 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:42:26 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out
>like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel
>from US Steel Corporation. They had a dozen or more mills here.
>Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women
>workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of
>California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in
>December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no
>doubt use it to build housing. It is directly on the border with
>Fremont, Niles district.
>>
>>Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>>is that suppose to work?
>><https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>
>>I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>>either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>><https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>>If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>
>>Depressing News:
>>"US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>>$14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>>"US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>>to a Japanese company".
>><https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>
>
>I think you missed a beat there. Tommy wrote "Richmond Ship Works".
>Try a search on that name...

Nope. Tom started with "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out..." and
then switched to "Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved
out of California." That's two different companies and locations. The
comment about the 9 mile separation was in reference to the storage
yard:
"I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally
empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build
housing. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district."
The "It is directly on the border with Fremont..." assumes that "it"
was in south Hayward.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Shipyards
>"The four Richmond Shipyards, in the city of Richmond, California,
>United States, were run by Permanente Metals and part of the Kaiser
>Shipyards. In World War II, Richmond built more ships than any other
>shipyard, turning out as many as three ships in a single day"

Ok, but the yards were not run by US Steel.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 20:42:18 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 10:30:18 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 18:42:26 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out
>>like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel
>>from US Steel Corporation. They had a dozen or more mills here.
>>Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women
>>workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of
>>California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in
>>December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no
>>doubt use it to build housing. It is directly on the border with
>>Fremont, Niles district.
>>>
>>>Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>>>is that suppose to work?
>>><https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>>
>>>I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>>>either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>>><https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>>>If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>>
>>>Depressing News:
>>>"US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>>>$14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>>>"US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>>>to a Japanese company".
>>><https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>>
>>
>>I think you missed a beat there. Tommy wrote "Richmond Ship Works".
>>Try a search on that name...
>
>Nope. Tom started with "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out..." and
>then switched to "Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved
>out of California." That's two different companies and locations. The
>comment about the 9 mile separation was in reference to the storage
>yard:
>"I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally
>empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build
>housing. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district."
>The "It is directly on the border with Fremont..." assumes that "it"
>was in south Hayward.
>
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richmond_Shipyards
>>"The four Richmond Shipyards, in the city of Richmond, California,
>>United States, were run by Permanente Metals and part of the Kaiser
>>Shipyards. In World War II, Richmond built more ships than any other
>>shipyard, turning out as many as three ships in a single day"
>
>Ok, but the yards were not run by US Steel.

Oh , I guess I missed Tom's mention of U.S. Steel... (:-) He does
mention so much that is meaningless :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/22/2024 9:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.
>
> Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
> is that suppose to work?
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>
> I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
> either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
> If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>
> Depressing News:
> "US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
> $14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
> "US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
> to a Japanese company".
> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>
> Got any more amazing facts?

You missed "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly
women workers."

Women were less than 25% in 'heavy' industrial occupations in 1944
https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1241

>
>

--
Add xx to reply

On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:04:07 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 2/22/2024 9:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.
>>
>> Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>> is that suppose to work?
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>
>> I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>> either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>> If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>
>> Depressing News:
>> "US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>> $14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>> "US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>> to a Japanese company".
>> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>
>> Got any more amazing facts?

>You missed "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly
>women workers."
>
>Women were less than 25% in 'heavy' industrial occupations in 1944
>https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1241

Guilty as charged. I didn't want to give Tom a choice of mistakes to
ignore (or an excuse to change the subject). One mistake at a time
seems to work better. It was also late and I had already consumed my
daily ration of computer time.

However, if you insist, there was one more problem with Tom's amazing
facts. "IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes".
Iron means "cast iron". There are plenty of articles available on how
to remove rust from cast iron pipe. For example:

"Best Methods How to Remove Rust from Inside Pipes"
<https://www.advantageplumbingnow.com/2023/01/10/how-remove-rust-from-inside-pipes/>
"How Does Rust Form in Pipes?
Water works as a universal solvent. Over time, it can break down any
material on earth. It should come as no surprise that water will erode
plumbing pipes over time."

"Old Piping Materials in Your Home May Need to Be Replaced"
<https://www.santafeexpressplumbing.net/blog/uncategorized/old-piping-materials-in-your-home-may-need-to-be-replaced>
"Cast iron: The oldest type of material you’ll find in a house in the
area. Cast iron was common up until around the 1960s. If it’s still in
your house, it needs to be replaced, since the chance of it already
corroding and putting toxins into your water (such as lead) is high."

More of the same:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+rust+from+inside+cast+iron+pipe>

Gone for a trudge in the park.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 2/23/2024 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:04:07 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 2/22/2024 9:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers. Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California. I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.
>>>
>>> Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>>> is that suppose to work?
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>>
>>> I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>>> either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>>> If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>>
>>> Depressing News:
>>> "US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>>> $14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>>> "US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>>> to a Japanese company".
>>> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>>
>>> Got any more amazing facts?
>
>> You missed "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly
>> women workers."
>>
>> Women were less than 25% in 'heavy' industrial occupations in 1944
>> https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1241
>
> Guilty as charged. I didn't want to give Tom a choice of mistakes to
> ignore (or an excuse to change the subject). One mistake at a time
> seems to work better. It was also late and I had already consumed my
> daily ration of computer time.
>
> However, if you insist, there was one more problem with Tom's amazing
> facts. "IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes".
> Iron means "cast iron". There are plenty of articles available on how
> to remove rust from cast iron pipe. For example:
>
> "Best Methods How to Remove Rust from Inside Pipes"
> <https://www.advantageplumbingnow.com/2023/01/10/how-remove-rust-from-inside-pipes/>
> "How Does Rust Form in Pipes?
> Water works as a universal solvent. Over time, it can break down any
> material on earth. It should come as no surprise that water will erode
> plumbing pipes over time."
>
> "Old Piping Materials in Your Home May Need to Be Replaced"
> <https://www.santafeexpressplumbing.net/blog/uncategorized/old-piping-materials-in-your-home-may-need-to-be-replaced>
> "Cast iron: The oldest type of material you’ll find in a house in the
> area. Cast iron was common up until around the 1960s. If it’s still in
> your house, it needs to be replaced, since the chance of it already
> corroding and putting toxins into your water (such as lead) is high."
>
> More of the same:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+rust+from+inside+cast+iron+pipe>

Considering tommy can't figure out hoe to get the silt out of his
faucets I doubt any tutorials on cleansing feed lines will help

>
> Gone for a trudge in the park.
>

--
Add xx to reply

Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/23/2024 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:04:07 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/22/2024 9:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel
>>>>> pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US
>>>>> Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond
>>>>> Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers.
>>>>> Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California.
>>>>> I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally
>>>>> empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to
>>>>> build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.
>>>>
>>>> Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>>>> is that suppose to work?
>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>>>> either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>>>> If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>>>
>>>> Depressing News:
>>>> "US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>>>> $14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>>>> "US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>>>> to a Japanese company".
>>>> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>>>
>>>> Got any more amazing facts?
>>
>>> You missed "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly
>>> women workers."
>>>
>>> Women were less than 25% in 'heavy' industrial occupations in 1944
>>> https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1241
>>
>> Guilty as charged. I didn't want to give Tom a choice of mistakes to
>> ignore (or an excuse to change the subject). One mistake at a time
>> seems to work better. It was also late and I had already consumed my
>> daily ration of computer time.
>>
>> However, if you insist, there was one more problem with Tom's amazing
>> facts. "IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes".
>> Iron means "cast iron". There are plenty of articles available on how
>> to remove rust from cast iron pipe. For example:
>>
>> "Best Methods How to Remove Rust from Inside Pipes"
>> <https://www.advantageplumbingnow.com/2023/01/10/how-remove-rust-from-inside-pipes/>
>> "How Does Rust Form in Pipes?
>> Water works as a universal solvent. Over time, it can break down any
>> material on earth. It should come as no surprise that water will erode
>> plumbing pipes over time."
>>
>> "Old Piping Materials in Your Home May Need to Be Replaced"
>> <https://www.santafeexpressplumbing.net/blog/uncategorized/old-piping-materials-in-your-home-may-need-to-be-replaced>
>> "Cast iron: The oldest type of material you’ll find in a house in the
>> area. Cast iron was common up until around the 1960s. If it’s still in
>> your house, it needs to be replaced, since the chance of it already
>> corroding and putting toxins into your water (such as lead) is high."
>>
>> More of the same:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+rust+from+inside+cast+iron+pipe>
>
> Considering tommy can't figure out hoe to get the silt out of his
> faucets I doubt any tutorials on cleansing feed lines will help
>
>>
>> Gone for a trudge in the park.
>>
>

Did work with a chap who didn’t know how to bleed his radiators, admitted
not something that should be needed to do often!

Roger Merriman

On 2/23/2024 2:58 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2/23/2024 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:04:07 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2/22/2024 9:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel
>>>>>> pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US
>>>>>> Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond
>>>>>> Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers.
>>>>>> Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California.
>>>>>> I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally
>>>>>> empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to
>>>>>> build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.
>>>>>
>>>>> Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>>>>> is that suppose to work?
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>>>>
>>>>> I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>>>>> either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>>>>> If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>>>>
>>>>> Depressing News:
>>>>> "US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>>>>> $14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>>>>> "US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>>>>> to a Japanese company".
>>>>> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>>>>
>>>>> Got any more amazing facts?
>>>
>>>> You missed "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly
>>>> women workers."
>>>>
>>>> Women were less than 25% in 'heavy' industrial occupations in 1944
>>>> https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1241
>>>
>>> Guilty as charged. I didn't want to give Tom a choice of mistakes to
>>> ignore (or an excuse to change the subject). One mistake at a time
>>> seems to work better. It was also late and I had already consumed my
>>> daily ration of computer time.
>>>
>>> However, if you insist, there was one more problem with Tom's amazing
>>> facts. "IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes".
>>> Iron means "cast iron". There are plenty of articles available on how
>>> to remove rust from cast iron pipe. For example:
>>>
>>> "Best Methods How to Remove Rust from Inside Pipes"
>>> <https://www.advantageplumbingnow.com/2023/01/10/how-remove-rust-from-inside-pipes/>
>>> "How Does Rust Form in Pipes?
>>> Water works as a universal solvent. Over time, it can break down any
>>> material on earth. It should come as no surprise that water will erode
>>> plumbing pipes over time."
>>>
>>> "Old Piping Materials in Your Home May Need to Be Replaced"
>>> <https://www.santafeexpressplumbing.net/blog/uncategorized/old-piping-materials-in-your-home-may-need-to-be-replaced>
>>> "Cast iron: The oldest type of material you’ll find in a house in the
>>> area. Cast iron was common up until around the 1960s. If it’s still in
>>> your house, it needs to be replaced, since the chance of it already
>>> corroding and putting toxins into your water (such as lead) is high."
>>>
>>> More of the same:
>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+rust+from+inside+cast+iron+pipe>
>>
>> Considering tommy can't figure out hoe to get the silt out of his
>> faucets I doubt any tutorials on cleansing feed lines will help
>>
>>>
>>> Gone for a trudge in the park.
>>>
>>
>
> Did work with a chap who didn’t know how to bleed his radiators, admitted
> not something that should be needed to do often!
>
> Roger Merriman
>

While it is an easy to perform task and relatively easy to understand
concept, it isn't something that's intuitive to a lot of people.

--
Add xx to reply

Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 2/23/2024 2:58 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 2/23/2024 10:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 23 Feb 2024 08:04:07 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2/22/2024 9:42 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 21:56:00 GMT, Tom Kunich <cyclintom@yahoo.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I should have mentioned that IRON pipes don't rust out like steel
>>>>>>> pipes during WW II virtually everything was made from steel from US
>>>>>>> Steel Corporation. They had a deozen or more mills here. Richmond
>>>>>>> Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly women workers.
>>>>>>> Now even the storage yards for US Steel have moved out of California.
>>>>>>> I took a look at the last one in south Hayward in December. Totally
>>>>>>> empty and the property up for sale. They will no doubt use it to
>>>>>>> build housinng. It is directly on the border with Fremont, Niles district.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Border? South Hayward and Fremont are 9 miles (14.5 km) apart. How
>>>>>> is that suppose to work?
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=distance+between+south+hayward+and+fremont+ca>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I couldn't find any references to a shipyard operated by US Steel in
>>>>>> either Hayward or Fremont. Got a better location?
>>>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=us+steel+shipyard+hayward+or+fremont>
>>>>>> If Google search can't find it, it doesn't (or didn't) exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Depressing News:
>>>>>> "US Steel has agreed to be purchased by Nippon Steel of Japan for
>>>>>> $14.1 billion (December 18, 2023):
>>>>>> "US Steel, once the world’s largest corporation, agrees to sell itself
>>>>>> to a Japanese company".
>>>>>> <https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/18/investing/us-steel-nippon-steel-deal/index.html>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Got any more amazing facts?
>>>>
>>>>> You missed "Richmond Ship Works was turnout out 1 ship a day with mostly
>>>>> women workers."
>>>>>
>>>>> Women were less than 25% in 'heavy' industrial occupations in 1944
>>>>> https://shec.ashp.cuny.edu/items/show/1241
>>>>
>>>> Guilty as charged. I didn't want to give Tom a choice of mistakes to
>>>> ignore (or an excuse to change the subject). One mistake at a time
>>>> seems to work better. It was also late and I had already consumed my
>>>> daily ration of computer time.
>>>>
>>>> However, if you insist, there was one more problem with Tom's amazing
>>>> facts. "IRON pipes don't rust out like steel pipes".
>>>> Iron means "cast iron". There are plenty of articles available on how
>>>> to remove rust from cast iron pipe. For example:
>>>>
>>>> "Best Methods How to Remove Rust from Inside Pipes"
>>>> <https://www.advantageplumbingnow.com/2023/01/10/how-remove-rust-from-inside-pipes/>
>>>> "How Does Rust Form in Pipes?
>>>> Water works as a universal solvent. Over time, it can break down any
>>>> material on earth. It should come as no surprise that water will erode
>>>> plumbing pipes over time."
>>>>
>>>> "Old Piping Materials in Your Home May Need to Be Replaced"
>>>> <https://www.santafeexpressplumbing.net/blog/uncategorized/old-piping-materials-in-your-home-may-need-to-be-replaced>
>>>> "Cast iron: The oldest type of material you’ll find in a house in the
>>>> area. Cast iron was common up until around the 1960s. If it’s still in
>>>> your house, it needs to be replaced, since the chance of it already
>>>> corroding and putting toxins into your water (such as lead) is high."
>>>>
>>>> More of the same:
>>>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+remove+rust+from+inside+cast+iron+pipe>
>>>
>>> Considering tommy can't figure out hoe to get the silt out of his
>>> faucets I doubt any tutorials on cleansing feed lines will help
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Gone for a trudge in the park.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> Did work with a chap who didn’t know how to bleed his radiators, admitted
>> not something that should be needed to do often!
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>
> While it is an easy to perform task and relatively easy to understand
> concept, it isn't something that's intuitive to a lot of people.
>

Indeed and possibly intimidating ie what if I do it wrong and so on.

I was the “heating guy” at my last place as my colleagues all rather young
women didn’t want to touch the admittedly mildly confusing boiler, it had a
valve to isolate the heating from the hot water supply, and was fairly
rudimentary ie big old lever unmarked to pull.

But they were just too young etc to have the confidence so they would have
to put up with it being way too hot until I was back at work etc!

Roger Merriman