On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >
> > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>
> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 5:57:07 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:58:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.
> Zillow says your house was built in 1955 which makes it 69 years old.
> Other sites (Realtor.com, Trulia, Spokio, etc) all show either 1955 or
> 1956.
>
> "Galvanized iron pipes"
> <https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/galvanized-iron-pipes>
>
> You might want to test for lead contamination, which might explain
> where your amazing dates and facts originated:
> "Water Service Line Inspection Flyer"
> <https://www.ebmud.com/download_file/force/22331/2926?Water_Service_Line_Inspection_Flyer.pdf>
> "... if customer-owned plumbing (for example, the customer house line)
> is made of galvanized iron, some lead from the original lead service
> line may still be present on the wall of the galvanized pipe. Small
> quantities of this lead could be released back into the water over
> time."
>
> Note that this is only for water lines that had previously used pipes
> and fixtures containing lead and which were later replaced with
> un-leaded plumbing.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
You just cannot keep yourself from telling me about MY house can you? It never occurs to you just how stupid that is such as every other thing you've commented on. The sheer ignorance of your comments is watched by everyone that happens to pass this group and after reading you they move on figuring this group is made up of people that call themselves engineers that never worked as engineers. Why do you insist in looking like a loud mouthed fool? Tell us all again how the land behind the dam on Cull Canyon didn't fill up with mud! Tell us again that I'm not wealthy and you're not on welfare. You are a stupid fool and the only one on your side is Flunky who suddenly developed a wife when I said that he was reacting the same way that the queers responded when I was interviewing them as they died with AIDS.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:10:14 AM UTC-8, Tim R wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > >
> > > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> > I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> > steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> > of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >
> > It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> > various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.

Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas, heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric lights and a fully gas stove.

On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>
>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>>
>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.

Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
un-piped cold air returns.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/14/2024 10:33 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank
>> Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>
>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since
>>>> removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew
>>>> how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would
>>>> have worked there. But later I ran into a very low
>>>> pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was
>>>> single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping
>>>> and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so
>>>> steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It
>>>> was not very efficient but after 70 years was still
>>>> going strong.
>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe
>>> vs. two pipe
>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the
>>> operation principle
>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>>>
>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used
>>> for cooling
>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air
>> furnace, usually oil burning.
>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge
>> octapus looking assembly of air ducts.  I never measured
>> but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more.
>> Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same
>> pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans.  I haven't
>> seen one since and they were never mentioned in
>> engineering school.
>
> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe?
> That sounds very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe
> could accommodate air moving two directions. Liquid and
> vapor contraflow in one pipe is no problem. (And I've been
> in old houses that had grates in the floor for un-piped cold
> air returns.)
>

+1
The usual forced air system has floor return vents.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>
> >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> un-piped cold air returns.)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On those floor vents usually there is only one pipe. Pipes were expensive. So the steam rose either to those air vents where there was a heat exchanger beneath the floor or to a radiator which usually was a two pipe system. But could be one pipe. My distant relation was a carpenter and showed my father how to expand our 600 square foot home into a 1200 square foot home. They talked about changing from that POS floor heater but never got around to it. That house is still there. Though they built a semi-freeway behind it where the creek used to be. They rerouted the creek down the middle of the route to the new Oakland Airport. There are paved bike trails out there that we ride in the winter. It is 25 or so miles out to Bay Farm Island and back. All of the Salt Marsh has been filled in and Bay Farm Island has been greatly expanded for industrial sites and a very large amount of homes and condos.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>
> >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> un-piped cold air returns.)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:10:14 AM UTC-8, Tim R wrote:
>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> > On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> > >
>> > > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed
>> > > though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the
>> > > traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But
>> > > later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I
>> > > think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation
>> > > piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so
>> > > steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not
>> > > very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>> > I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>> > steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>> > of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>> >
>> > It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>> > various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>> >
>> > --
>> > - Frank Krygowski
>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually
>> oil burning.
>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
>> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be
>> 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and
>> cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air
>> fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in
>> engineering school.
>
> Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment
> buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted
> out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before
> the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned
> about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself

My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.

Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.

> apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
> be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
> heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
> efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
> child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
> coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
> be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
> flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
> long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
> lights and a fully gas stove.

--

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 2:11:01 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:10:14 AM UTC-8, Tim R wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> > On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed
> >> > > though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the
> >> > > traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But
> >> > > later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I
> >> > > think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation
> >> > > piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so
> >> > > steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not
> >> > > very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >> > I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >> > steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >> > of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >> >
> >> > It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >> > various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > - Frank Krygowski
> >> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually
> >> oil burning.
> >> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
> >> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be
> >> 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and
> >> cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air
> >> fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in
> >> engineering school.
> >
> > Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment
> > buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted
> > out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before
> > the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned
> > about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself
> My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
> piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
> about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
> boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
> new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.
>
> Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
> furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
> to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
> it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
> radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.
> > apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
> > be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
> > heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
> > efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
> > child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
> > coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
> > be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
> > flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
> > long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
> > lights and a fully gas stove.
> --

Well, my gas central heating is very noisy and usually wakes me up at 5 am when it turns on. But then a gas boiler is usually located away from the home center.

On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 2:11:01 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:10:14 AM UTC-8, Tim R wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed
>>>>>> though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the
>>>>>> traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But
>>>>>> later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I
>>>>>> think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation
>>>>>> piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so
>>>>>> steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not
>>>>>> very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>>>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>>>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>>>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>>>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually
>>>> oil burning.
>>>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
>>>> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be
>>>> 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and
>>>> cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air
>>>> fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in
>>>> engineering school.
>>>
>>> Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment
>>> buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted
>>> out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before
>>> the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned
>>> about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself
>> My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
>> piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
>> about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
>> boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
>> new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.
>>
>> Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
>> furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
>> to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
>> it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
>> radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.
>>> apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
>>> be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
>>> heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
>>> efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
>>> child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
>>> coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
>>> be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
>>> flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
>>> long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
>>> lights and a fully gas stove.
>> --
>
> Well, my gas central heating is very noisy and usually wakes me up at 5 am when it turns on. But then a gas boiler is usually located away from the home center.

The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:19:58 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 2:11:01 PM UTC-8, Radey Shouman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> writes:
> >>
> >>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:10:14 AM UTC-8, Tim R wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed
> >>>>>> though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the
> >>>>>> traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But
> >>>>>> later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I
> >>>>>> think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation
> >>>>>> piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so
> >>>>>> steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not
> >>>>>> very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >>>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >>>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >>>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >>>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> - Frank Krygowski
> >>>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually
> >>>> oil burning.
> >>>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
> >>>> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be
> >>>> 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and
> >>>> cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air
> >>>> fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in
> >>>> engineering school.
> >>>
> >>> Hot steam heating was very old and was largely used in apartment
> >>> buildings in New York City Because they used iron pipes they rusted
> >>> out rapidly and the common complaint was that they leaked a lot before
> >>> the manager shut them off permanently. I'm sure that Frank learned
> >>> about their failures in engineering school. In San Francisco itself
> >> My house has steam heat, built in 1952. I believe most of the radiator
> >> piping is original, which is not something I most certainly can not say
> >> about the water supply or drains, or the wiring. We did replace the
> >> boiler a few years ago, and it was not the first replacement. All the
> >> new boiler piping is black iron, as it should be.
> >>
> >> Hot water systems can be a bit more efficient by using a condensing
> >> furnace, but there are many more cost effective ways that I should use
> >> to improve my heating efficiency. I like steam heat. When working well
> >> it is quieter than anything that uses fans, and it gives you a hot
> >> radiator to sit beside if you're cold, or to avoid if you're not.
> >>> apartments were fairly rare and heating of office buildings tended to
> >>> be more sophisticated. In the parts of the country that had gas,
> >>> heating of private homes was with floor heaters which were not very
> >>> efficient. You would have to stand over it to bget warm. When I was a
> >>> child the stove had gas burners but the oven was heated with
> >>> coal. Also the house was originally lit with gas lights which had to
> >>> be lit in each room by turning a valve on at the light and lighting a
> >>> flame in a glass enclosure. I'm pretty foggy on that since it was so
> >>> long ago so I must have been 4 or 5 when we were wired for electric
> >>> lights and a fully gas stove.
> >> --
> >
> > Well, my gas central heating is very noisy and usually wakes me up at 5 am when it turns on. But then a gas boiler is usually located away from the home center.
> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
> squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
> building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
> boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971
1882?? Did James Monroe live there?

On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:19:58?PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:

>> On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
>> squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
>> building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
>> boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.

>1882?? Did James Monroe live there?

James Monroe died in 1831:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 4:09:05 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> > >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> > >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> > >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> > >>
> > >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> > >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> > Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> > very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> > moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> > problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> > un-piped cold air returns.)
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1

Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.

Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!

- Frank Krygowski

On 2/14/2024 6:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and squeaks of
> pipe expansion as they warm?  In an 1882 steam building I rented for a
> long while, the gas (formerly coal) boiler was not all that loud but the
> pipe movements were.

One of the more memorable concerts I attended was of a consort or group
performing medieval music in a beautiful old chapel at a small college.
The group entered in a solemn procession with lights down low, then
played ancient music on replicas of period instruments.

It was lovely except for the _extremely_ loud clanking coming from the
steam heat system! It was like random percussion inserted by a madman.

Afterwards we went up and talked to the musicians. Many of them were in
extremely grumpy moods because of the effect of heating system noise on
their concert.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/14/2024 11:13 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 5:57:07 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:58:32 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> My house is 75 years old and needs new water pipes.
>> Zillow says your house was built in 1955 which makes it 69 years old.
>> Other sites (Realtor.com, Trulia, Spokio, etc) all show either 1955 or
>> 1956.
>>
>> "Galvanized iron pipes"
>> <https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/galvanized-iron-pipes>
>>
>> You might want to test for lead contamination, which might explain
>> where your amazing dates and facts originated:
>> "Water Service Line Inspection Flyer"
>> <https://www.ebmud.com/download_file/force/22331/2926?Water_Service_Line_Inspection_Flyer.pdf>
>> "... if customer-owned plumbing (for example, the customer house line)
>> is made of galvanized iron, some lead from the original lead service
>> line may still be present on the wall of the galvanized pipe. Small
>> quantities of this lead could be released back into the water over
>> time."
>>
>> Note that this is only for water lines that had previously used pipes
>> and fixtures containing lead and which were later replaced with
>> un-leaded plumbing.
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
> You just cannot keep yourself from telling me about MY house can you? It never occurs to you just how stupid that is such as every other thing you've commented on. The sheer ignorance of your comments is watched by everyone that happens to pass this group and after reading you they move on figuring this group is made up of people that call themselves engineers that never worked as engineers. Why do you insist in looking like a loud mouthed fool? Tell us all again how the land behind the dam on Cull Canyon didn't fill up with mud! Tell us again that I'm not wealthy and you're not on welfare.

Hey Jeff,
Did you happen to notice throughout that triggered rant he doesn't make
any comments actually relevant to your post?

> You are a stupid fool and the only one on your side is Flunky who suddenly developed a wife when I said that he was reacting the same way that the queers responded when I was interviewing them as they died with AIDS.

lol...there it is!
the fact that your claim of ever interviewed any homosexuals with AIDS
is a complete lie notwithstanding:

Jutelist#1 Repeatedly accusing people of being "queer". He's a closeted
queer, afraid people will find out.
--
Add xx to reply

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> >>>
> >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> >>
> >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> >>
> >> --
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> un-piped cold air returns.)
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Frank,
In hindsight I'm sure you're right.

This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.

My bad, and good catch.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:21:30 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:19:58?PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>
> >> On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
> >> squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
> >> building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
> >> boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.
> >1882?? Did James Monroe live there?
> James Monroe died in 1831:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
> If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.
> --
> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Liebermann, do you have to show your absolute ignorance every time you post? 69 isn't close enough to 75 to suit you? There is a story on Yahoo mentioning the century old B52. Why don't you write them and tell them that the oldest now retired B52A was built in 1952? If you wish to look like a really useless fool actually go completely public with you shit face comments?

When you're so ignorant as to not know comments that are not supposed to be taken literal, you should at least show the entire world and not just the members of rec.bicycles.tech.

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 7:36:03 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 4:09:05 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 8:33:15 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31 AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
> > > >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
> > > >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
> > > >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
> > > >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
> > > > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
> > > Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
> > > very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
> > > moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
> > > problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
> > > un-piped cold air returns.)
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > The "air" coming up from the boiler is mostly steam and the "air" returning is sliding down the inside of the pipe itself as water. I guess there is too large a difference between mechanical engineering and industrial engineering for that to be very plain. I should add that the differejnce in density between water and steam is 32000 to 1
> Your attempt at insult is stupid, Tom. Tim R was talking about a "hot air furnace." I was talking about a boiler system outputting steam, and I already mentioned liquid and vapor in one pipe.
>
> Damn, learn to read! Take notes! Ask your wife for help!
>
> - Frank Krygowski
Krygowski, you've been in houses with cold air vents in the floor. Floor vents carry hot air up.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 2/14/2024 6:19 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and squeaks of
>> pipe expansion as they warm?  In an 1882 steam building I rented for a
>> long while, the gas (formerly coal) boiler was not all that loud but the
>> pipe movements were.
>
> One of the more memorable concerts I attended was of a consort or group
> performing medieval music in a beautiful old chapel at a small college.
> The group entered in a solemn procession with lights down low, then
> played ancient music on replicas of period instruments.
>
> It was lovely except for the _extremely_ loud clanking coming from the
> steam heat system! It was like random percussion inserted by a madman.
>
> Afterwards we went up and talked to the musicians. Many of them were in
> extremely grumpy moods because of the effect of heating system noise on
> their concert.
>
My parents house which is reasonably large used to have a coal boiler, and
certainly the 1st time you engaged the pump ie turned the heating on would
get some mild pipe noises as it warmed up.

The range they have now doesn’t do this, mind you the house is much warmer
due to insulation ie double glazing which has stopped the house cooling so
much in some rooms and some bits of pipes.

Ie heating shouldn’t be clanking etc all the time, some heating up noises
as pipes expanded etc fine.

Roger Merriman

On 2/15/2024 10:16 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:21:30 PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:19:58?PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>>>> On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
>>>> squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
>>>> building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
>>>> boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.
>>> 1882?? Did James Monroe live there?
>> James Monroe died in 1831:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
>> If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
> Liebermann, do you have to show your absolute ignorance every time you post? 69 isn't close enough to 75 to suit you? There is a story on Yahoo mentioning the century old B52. Why don't you write them and tell them that the oldest now retired B52A was built in 1952? If you wish to look like a really useless fool actually go completely public with you shit face comments?
>
> When you're so ignorant as to not know comments that are not supposed to be taken literal, you should at least show the entire world and not just the members of rec.bicycles.tech.

more triggered responses from kunich

--
Add xx to reply

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:43:29 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>Hey Jeff,
>Did you happen to notice throughout that triggered rant he doesn't make
>any comments actually relevant to your post?

Yes, I noticed. That's one reason I didn't respond. He often
responds to unfamiliar and uncomfortable topics with radical changes
in topic laced with amazing facts, political dogma and personal
insults.

Another reason is that I currently don't have much time to waste on
Tom's limited inventory of chronically repetitive topics. I'm still
recovering from the effects of 5 days without PG&E electricity and
don't have much time to waste.

Also, Tom has recently begun deflecting criticism by simply accusing
the accuser of the same things that Tom was accused of doing. This is
highly boring and I don't want any part of such a childish exchange.
So, I just read occasionally, and comment when sufficiently inspired.

My comments about the Tom's residential plumbing and district water
supply were intended to be helpful. There's a tiny chance that Tom
might be telling the truth and really does have water quality
problems. At best, his comments were exaggerated, such as stones and
gravel from the faucet. Whether he profits from my hasty research is
his decision.

I also chose not to mention the East Bay water treatment plant
situation because I didn't have the time to do the necessary research.
It seems that two of his water district's treatment plants are "out of
service".
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-data>
<https://www.ebmud.com/water/about-your-water/water-quality/water-quality-faqs>
Upper San Leandro water treatment plant will be out of service until
about 2026:
<https://www.ebmud.com/about-us/construction-and-maintenance/construction-my-neighborhood/upper-san-leandro-water-treatment-plant-maintenance-reliability-and-chemical-systems-safety-improvements-project>
There will be less of this type of postings from me if Tom continues
to ignore them and replies with personalized insults and political
dogma.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 07:16:33 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 5:21:30?PM UTC-8, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Wed, 14 Feb 2024 16:46:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:19:58?PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> >> On 2/14/2024 5:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> The sound of the burner cycling on or the various clicks and
>> >> squeaks of pipe expansion as they warm? In an 1882 steam
>> >> building I rented for a long while, the gas (formerly coal)
>> >> boiler was not all that loud but the pipe movements were.
>> >1882?? Did James Monroe live there?
>> James Monroe died in 1831:
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Monroe>
>> If he lived there in 1882, it may have been his ghost.
>> --
>> Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
>> PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
>> Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
>> Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
>
>Liebermann, do you have to show your absolute ignorance every time you post? 69 isn't close enough to 75 to suit you? There is a story on Yahoo mentioning the century old B52. Why don't you write them and tell them that the oldest now retired B52A was built in 1952? If you wish to look like a really useless fool actually go completely public with you shit face comments?
>
>When you're so ignorant as to not know comments that are not supposed to be taken literal, you should at least show the entire world and not just the members of rec.bicycles.tech.

And Tommy gets it wrong yet again.
The first YB-52 to fly was on 15 April 1952; however this was during
the Boeing devotement and testing of the airplane, prior to acceptance
by the Air Force.. The first B-52B accepted by the Air Force was not
until 18 March 1954.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R
<timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> > On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> >> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>> >> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>> >> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>> >> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>> >>
>> >> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>> >> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> - Frank Krygowski
>> >
>> > Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
>> > In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
>> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
>> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
>> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
>> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
>> un-piped cold air returns.)
>>
>> --
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
>Frank,
>In hindsight I'm sure you're right.
>
>This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.
>
>My bad, and good catch.

Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
simply grates in the first floor ceiling.

There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
located.

Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
floor.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/15/2024 11:27 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R
> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but after 70 years was still going strong.
>>>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>>>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>>>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>>>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
>>>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18 inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans. I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
>>> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
>>> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
>>> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
>>> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
>>> un-piped cold air returns.)
>>>
>>> --
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>> Frank,
>> In hindsight I'm sure you're right.
>>
>> This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.
>>
>> My bad, and good catch.
>
>
> Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
> method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
> the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
> in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
> simply grates in the first floor ceiling.
>
> There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
> located.
>
> Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
> floor.

My 1904 house had warm air ducts a foot off the floor on the
walls and (fewer) cold returns in the floors.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 2/15/2024 11:27 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 06:37:26 -0800 (PST), Tim R
>> <timothy42bach@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 11:33:15?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 2/14/2024 8:10 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, January 31, 2024 at 11:07:31?AM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/31/2024 8:08 AM, Tim R wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We had higher pressure steam where I worked, since removed though
>>>>>>> because we no longer had anyone who knew how to keep the traps
>>>>>>> running. I'm not sure it would have worked there. But later I ran
>>>>>>> into a very low pressure steam system, about 1 PSI I think. It was
>>>>>>> single pipe system in a church - no recirculation piping and no
>>>>>>> traps, no pumps. The piping was all sloped so steam condensed and
>>>>>>> ran downhill back to the boiler. It was not very efficient but
>>>>>>> after 70 years was still going strong.
>>>>>> I don't know about the relative efficiency of one pipe vs. two pipe
>>>>>> steam heat. I doubt they're very different. But the operation principle
>>>>>> of a one pipe system is sort of elegant.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's the same principle as a "heat pipe," sometimes used for cooling
>>>>>> various industrial devices, or things like CPUs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> Older farmhouses in wisconsin had a similar hot air furnace, usually oil burning.
>>>>> In the basement there would be a large furnace with a huge octapus
>>>>> looking assembly of air ducts. I never measured but they had to be 18
>>>>> inches in diameter, maybe more. Same principle, hot air up and cold
>>>>> air back down the same pipe; no return ducts and no forced air fans.
>>>>> I haven't seen one since and they were never mentioned in engineering school.
>>>> Are you sure the air went up and down in the same big pipe? That sounds
>>>> very unlikely to me! I don't see how one pipe could accommodate air
>>>> moving two directions. Liquid and vapor contraflow in one pipe is no
>>>> problem. (And I've been in old houses that had grates in the floor for
>>>> un-piped cold air returns.)
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> Frank,
>>> In hindsight I'm sure you're right.
>>>
>>> This came from a discussion about a heating system that would be robust
>>> to electricity loss. Hot air rising through thermal convection in very
>>> large pipes solved the fan problem. But clearly cold air sinking from
>>> a room would need another path down, unlike steam condensed in a
>>> sloping pipe. I'm sure the cold air sank through floor grates.
>>>
>>> My bad, and good catch.
>>
>>
>> Growing up in rural New Hampshire hot air furnaces were the common
>> method of heating homes when I was young. The "furnace", located in
>> the "cellar" had air ducts to direct the heated air to various room
>> in the ground floor, the "second floor" was heated by ""ventilators"
>> simply grates in the first floor ceiling.
>>
>> There was no cold air return to the "cellar" where the furnace was
>> located.
>>
>> Note, a typical home in those days might have 3 rooms on the ground
>> floor.
>
> My 1904 house had warm air ducts a foot off the floor on the
> walls and (fewer) cold returns in the floors.

Seems to be a North American thing, ie to use warm air ducts rather than
radiators which is the norm in Europe, do get heated floors in some as
well.

Roger Merriman