On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 9:18:50 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 11:49:26 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 2:56:17 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 7:28:22 PM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
> > > > >> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
> > > > >> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
> > > > >> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
> > > > >> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
> > > > >> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
> > > > >> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
> > > > >> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
> > > > >> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
> > > > >> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
> > > > >> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
> > > > >> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
> > > > >> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
> > > > >> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
> > > > >> considered making "headway".
> > > > >
> > > > >As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
> > > > >admitted to being wrong.
> > > > >
> > > > >I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
> > > > >impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
> > > > >thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
> > > > >direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
> > > > >discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
> > > > >thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
> > > > >materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
> > > > >was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center..
> > > > >
> > > > >We can discuss all those now, if people like.
> > > > Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
> > > > his immature nonsense rants...
> > > > >> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions..
> > > > >> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
> > > > >> people with childish names.
> > > > >
> > > > >Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
> > > > >Things have gone downhill.
> > > > Thanks to Krygowki.
> > > >
> > > Exactly so. -- AJ
> > > >
> > And the odd thing is that Krygowski still doesn't even imagine that he is full of shit.
> > "One was his claim that it's
> > > > >impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
> > > > >thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
> > > > >direction and sort of accepting it."
> > Do you suppose that even for one second it occurred to Krygowski that that "random wobble" was initiated by a "random wobble" in the opposite direction and that that was the bike counter-steering itself because the rider is remaining more or less static which causes the bike to counter-steer in one direction and then the other? Jobst was quite right and as usual Krygowski was quite wrong.
> >
> > Also, tires do not blow off of their rims from extended braking due to chemical changes in the tire compound because a tire is held onto the rim with the bead material and the rim hooks. Neither of these are particularly sensitive to heat. The possible changes on the traction compound effects nothing.
> >
> > If you're talking about tubular tires it is from the cement melting to the point that the traction of the tire causes the melted glue to allow the tire to rotate and tear off the filler valve. This is chemistry 101 and again Jobst was correct.
> >
> > I will say though that since I cannot remember Frank having this discussion with Jobst that I withdraw my comment that I never read Krygowski disagree with Jobst though I would hardly rate those as disagreements.
> >
> Yah, I read that crap from Franki-boy about random wobbles, and smiled because I thought he was telling a joke. I imagine that Jobst humoured Franki-boy like you would an insane person with a fixation on his own infallibility. It would take too long to explain to an argumentative moron like Krygowski how a bike -- any two-wheeler with deformable tyres -- really works, so I moved on to productive work. I'm not surprised Franki-boy thought he won the argument; that's just who and what the poor man is. The counterintuitive motion of two-wheelers have been well-understood since just after World War II, and a link to the article describing the test results has several times over the years been published on RBT. (My Googlebug Slow Johnny will find it for us if Liebermann is tardy.) I can't even begin to guess why Krygowski is still so ignorant. Anyhow, I'm for my treadmill, on which I will watch the sprint event of the last MotoGP race of the season, with the champion rider still undecided; Ducati have long since won the constructor's crown and the finalists are both Ducati riders from different teams. -- Andre Jute
At the time Krygowski said it I immediately got three emails about it - he said that the very small deviations of the steering of my Ridley could not be true - that HE knows how bicycles work and large deviations from a path are necessary to balance a bike. Since he doesn't believe that people think him an absolute fool he doesn't believe in emails laughing their ass off at him. Seems like more than I have a bike that has very small deviations from a chosen path even at slow speeds. This all has to do with how much your paddling effects the vertical stability of your bike. Something that Frank doesn't believe in either since he rides an old clunky steel touring bike with a freewheel and probably rides like all people who know themselves superior do.

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 21:18:48 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>and a link to the article describing the test results has several times over the years been published on RBT. (My Googlebug Slow Johnny will find it for us if Liebermann is tardy.)

Just search for the words "counter steering". For example:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=counter+steering>
Plenty more articles and videos found using Google search:
<https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+%22counter+steering%22>

Of course, there are myths and myth busters:

"Myths Debunked: You CANNOT Lean without Countersteering"
<https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/>

Drivel: In about 1985, when I bought a Miyata 610, I became involved
in a casual discussion over what we now call counter steering. I
decided to test what happens if I lock the steering in the dead ahead
position, ride in a straight line and lean the bicycle over. For
locking the steering, I simply tied a rope between the handle bar
grips and the top tube. All I had handy was a some nylon line. Nylon
rope stretches 15% to 30% making it useful for climbing ropes and
sailing sheets where some stretch is needed to absorb the shocks. If
you want better rope, use polyester with only 10% stretch.

Riding was "interesting". When I leaned over, I fought the rope and
instinctively tried to turn the handlebars in the opposite direction.
I tightened the rope until the handlebars started to bend slightly but
I still couldn't lean over without turning. When I tried to lean over
with only light pressure on the handlebars, I lost my balance.

A few years later, I had an idea that involved attaching a
potentiometer (variable resistor) to the steering tube. I used a 10
bit DAC (digital to analog converter), which provided approximately
360 deg / 1024 = 0.035 degree
resolution. Overkill, but it produced an interesting result. I found
it was almost impossible to steer directly ahead and ride in a
straight line. Normal riding, produced a winding or meandering track,
alternating between left and right and synchronized to the position of
the pedals. When the left foot went down, the bicycle would wander to
the right. When the right foot went down, it would wander to the
right. By watching a zero center analog panel meter, I could almost
ride in a somewhat straight line.

Whether my counter steering was instinctive or the result of training
is unknown. I don't recall ever being taught to counter turn. At
some point of learning how to ride various bicycles, counter steering
became habitual.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/26/2023 1:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 21:18:48 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> and a link to the article describing the test results has several times over the years been published on RBT. (My Googlebug Slow Johnny will find it for us if Liebermann is tardy.)
>
> Just search for the words "counter steering". For example:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=counter+steering>
> Plenty more articles and videos found using Google search:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+%22counter+steering%22>
>
> Of course, there are myths and myth busters:
>
> "Myths Debunked: You CANNOT Lean without Countersteering"
> <https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/>
>
> Drivel: In about 1985, when I bought a Miyata 610, I became involved
> in a casual discussion over what we now call counter steering. I
> decided to test what happens if I lock the steering in the dead ahead
> position, ride in a straight line and lean the bicycle over. For
> locking the steering, I simply tied a rope between the handle bar
> grips and the top tube. All I had handy was a some nylon line. Nylon
> rope stretches 15% to 30% making it useful for climbing ropes and
> sailing sheets where some stretch is needed to absorb the shocks. If
> you want better rope, use polyester with only 10% stretch.
>
> Riding was "interesting". When I leaned over, I fought the rope and
> instinctively tried to turn the handlebars in the opposite direction.
> I tightened the rope until the handlebars started to bend slightly but
> I still couldn't lean over without turning. When I tried to lean over
> with only light pressure on the handlebars, I lost my balance.
>
> A few years later, I had an idea that involved attaching a
> potentiometer (variable resistor) to the steering tube. I used a 10
> bit DAC (digital to analog converter), which provided approximately
> 360 deg / 1024 = 0.035 degree
> resolution. Overkill, but it produced an interesting result. I found
> it was almost impossible to steer directly ahead and ride in a
> straight line. Normal riding, produced a winding or meandering track,
> alternating between left and right and synchronized to the position of
> the pedals. When the left foot went down, the bicycle would wander to
> the right. When the right foot went down, it would wander to the
> right. By watching a zero center analog panel meter, I could almost
> ride in a somewhat straight line.
>
> Whether my counter steering was instinctive or the result of training
> is unknown. I don't recall ever being taught to counter turn. At
> some point of learning how to ride various bicycles, counter steering
> became habitual.
>
>

Regarding the natural sinuous path of the front wheel when
riding 'straight', Conan Doyle used that in a story when
Holmes and Watson chanced on a bicycle's trail on a wet
path. Which way was the bicycle traveling? Holmes explained
in his terse style, "Of course the rear wheel always follows
the front." leaving the reader to work out the details.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 13:59:43 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>Regarding the natural sinuous path of the front wheel when
>riding 'straight', Conan Doyle used that in a story when
>Holmes and Watson chanced on a bicycle's trail on a wet
>path. Which way was the bicycle traveling? Holmes explained
>in his terse style, "Of course the rear wheel always follows
>the front." leaving the reader to work out the details.

Thanks. I used to be a fanatical reader of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
stories, pastiches and parodies, when I was much younger. I recall
the story in "The Adventures of the Priory School", but gave up trying
to deduce how it works. Now, I find a retired college math teacher
has documented the effect:

"Sherlock Holmes and the Bicycle Tracks" (2004)
<https://mathweb.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Supplements/Freshman%20Seminar/bicycle.pdf>

It looks correct, but I need some time to better understand it.

If the bicycle tires have unidirectional tread patterns, such as the
chevrons common on tractor tires, one can deduce the direction of
travel from the direction of the chevrons.
<https://www.google.com/search?q=chevron+tractor+tires&udm=2>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/26/2023 2:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 21:18:48 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> and a link to the article describing the test results has several times over the years been published on RBT. (My Googlebug Slow Johnny will find it for us if Liebermann is tardy.)
>
> Just search for the words "counter steering". For example:
> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=counter+steering>
> Plenty more articles and videos found using Google search:
> <https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+%22counter+steering%22>
>
> Of course, there are myths and myth busters:
>
> "Myths Debunked: You CANNOT Lean without Countersteering"
> <https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/>
>
> Drivel: In about 1985, when I bought a Miyata 610, I became involved
> in a casual discussion over what we now call counter steering. I
> decided to test what happens if I lock the steering in the dead ahead
> position, ride in a straight line and lean the bicycle over. For
> locking the steering, I simply tied a rope between the handle bar
> grips and the top tube. All I had handy was a some nylon line. Nylon
> rope stretches 15% to 30% making it useful for climbing ropes and
> sailing sheets where some stretch is needed to absorb the shocks. If
> you want better rope, use polyester with only 10% stretch.
>
> Riding was "interesting". When I leaned over, I fought the rope and
> instinctively tried to turn the handlebars in the opposite direction.
> I tightened the rope until the handlebars started to bend slightly but
> I still couldn't lean over without turning. When I tried to lean over
> with only light pressure on the handlebars, I lost my balance.

As I've said, I think the "CANNOT" is overstating things a bit. I think
a gradual enough turn at a position that's relatively random could be
initiated by using a bike's random wobble.

Here's a procedure that might verify my idea:

Tie only (say) the right handlebar to the frame, so the bars could turn
right but not left. You could not countersteer by turning the bars
leftward. Obviously it would make riding beyond a few feet impossible.

But if you did somehow manage to stay upright while gaining a bit of
speed (maybe by coasting down a ramp?) some percentage of test rides
would have the bike randomly tilting right. At the instant that random
lean occurred, you could let the handlebars pivot rightward and complete
a turn.

I'd try this only on a soft surface. Use of a magic foam hat is up to
the rider, as it should be.

In fact, I'd guess that randomly initiated turns are how little kids
start off. I think the "big countersteer to turn" reflex occurs after
the "little countersteer to balance" reflex.

All this matters little to those who already know everything - or think
they do.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 13:59:43 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 11/26/2023 1:18 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 21:18:48 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>> <fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> and a link to the article describing the test results has several times over the years been published on RBT. (My Googlebug Slow Johnny will find it for us if Liebermann is tardy.)
>>
>> Just search for the words "counter steering". For example:
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=counter+steering>
>> Plenty more articles and videos found using Google search:
>> <https://www.google.com/search?q=bicycle+%22counter+steering%22>
>>
>> Of course, there are myths and myth busters:
>>
>> "Myths Debunked: You CANNOT Lean without Countersteering"
>> <https://www.renehersecycles.com/myth-13-leaning-without-countersteering/>
>>
>> Drivel: In about 1985, when I bought a Miyata 610, I became involved
>> in a casual discussion over what we now call counter steering. I
>> decided to test what happens if I lock the steering in the dead ahead
>> position, ride in a straight line and lean the bicycle over. For
>> locking the steering, I simply tied a rope between the handle bar
>> grips and the top tube. All I had handy was a some nylon line. Nylon
>> rope stretches 15% to 30% making it useful for climbing ropes and
>> sailing sheets where some stretch is needed to absorb the shocks. If
>> you want better rope, use polyester with only 10% stretch.
>>
>> Riding was "interesting". When I leaned over, I fought the rope and
>> instinctively tried to turn the handlebars in the opposite direction.
>> I tightened the rope until the handlebars started to bend slightly but
>> I still couldn't lean over without turning. When I tried to lean over
>> with only light pressure on the handlebars, I lost my balance.
>>
>> A few years later, I had an idea that involved attaching a
>> potentiometer (variable resistor) to the steering tube. I used a 10
>> bit DAC (digital to analog converter), which provided approximately
>> 360 deg / 1024 = 0.035 degree
>> resolution. Overkill, but it produced an interesting result. I found
>> it was almost impossible to steer directly ahead and ride in a
>> straight line. Normal riding, produced a winding or meandering track,
>> alternating between left and right and synchronized to the position of
>> the pedals. When the left foot went down, the bicycle would wander to
>> the right. When the right foot went down, it would wander to the
>> right. By watching a zero center analog panel meter, I could almost
>> ride in a somewhat straight line.
>>
>> Whether my counter steering was instinctive or the result of training
>> is unknown. I don't recall ever being taught to counter turn. At
>> some point of learning how to ride various bicycles, counter steering
>> became habitual.
>>
>>
>
>Regarding the natural sinuous path of the front wheel when
>riding 'straight', Conan Doyle used that in a story when
>Holmes and Watson chanced on a bicycle's trail on a wet
>path. Which way was the bicycle traveling? Holmes explained
>in his terse style, "Of course the rear wheel always follows
>the front." leaving the reader to work out the details.

See
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/self-stable-bike/

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/26/2023 5:35 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 13:59:43 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> Regarding the natural sinuous path of the front wheel when
>> riding 'straight', Conan Doyle used that in a story when
>> Holmes and Watson chanced on a bicycle's trail on a wet
>> path. Which way was the bicycle traveling? Holmes explained
>> in his terse style, "Of course the rear wheel always follows
>> the front." leaving the reader to work out the details.
>
> See
> https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/self-stable-bike/

I recall articles on that device. To me it was interesting, but only in
the most theoretical way. I see no practical way it applies to anything
we might normally call a bicycle.

--
- Frank Krygowski

> To be fair I’d assume some of it would be to get the qualifications which
> verify the skills knowledge.

To be fair,
a)there is in the book a good deal of information of great import to wheel builder beyond selecting spokes, which is perhaps the smallest part and the most readily available elsewhere
and
b)asking questions here about the subject here, of all places, is asking its readers to regurgitate it to you.

You -were- advised to apply linseed oil to the spoke threads, right?

Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>
>>> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
>>> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
>>> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
>>> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
>>> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
>>> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
>>> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
>>> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
>>> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
>>> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
>>> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
>>> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
>>>
>>> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
>>> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
>>> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
>>> considered making "headway".
>>
>> As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
>> admitted to being wrong.
>>
>> I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
>> impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
>> thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
>> direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
>> discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
>> thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
>> materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
>> was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
>>
>> We can discuss all those now, if people like.
>
> Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
> his immature nonsense rants...
>
>>> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
>>> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
>>> people with childish names.
>>
>> Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
>> Things have gone downhill.
>
> Thanks to Krygowki.

No, thanks to the arrival of a person who feels he must ridicule every
word he says.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 13:20:10 +0100, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
>>>> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
>>>> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
>>>> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
>>>> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
>>>> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
>>>> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
>>>> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
>>>> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
>>>> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
>>>> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
>>>> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
>>>>
>>>> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
>>>> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
>>>> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
>>>> considered making "headway".
>>>
>>> As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
>>> admitted to being wrong.
>>>
>>> I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
>>> impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
>>> thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
>>> direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
>>> discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
>>> thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
>>> materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
>>> was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
>>>
>>> We can discuss all those now, if people like.
>>
>> Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
>> his immature nonsense rants...
>>
>>>> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
>>>> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
>>>> people with childish names.
>>>
>>> Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
>>> Things have gone downhill.
>>
>> Thanks to Krygowki.
>
>No, thanks to the arrival of a person who feels he must ridicule every
>word he says.

I'm just returning the "favor."

"If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike
path and riding back and forth. That's too boring for me, but maybe
someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.

- Frank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/mmxzneaxsdE/m/qYtFPpL3AAAJ

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 07:41:18 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 13:20:10 +0100, Rolf Mantel
><news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>>Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
>>>>> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
>>>>> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
>>>>> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
>>>>> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
>>>>> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
>>>>> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
>>>>> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
>>>>> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
>>>>> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
>>>>> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
>>>>> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
>>>>> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
>>>>> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
>>>>> considered making "headway".
>>>>
>>>> As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
>>>> admitted to being wrong.
>>>>
>>>> I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
>>>> impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
>>>> thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
>>>> direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
>>>> discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
>>>> thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
>>>> materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
>>>> was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
>>>>
>>>> We can discuss all those now, if people like.
>>>
>>> Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
>>> his immature nonsense rants...
>>>
>>>>> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
>>>>> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
>>>>> people with childish names.
>>>>
>>>> Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
>>>> Things have gone downhill.
>>>
>>> Thanks to Krygowki.
>>
>>No, thanks to the arrival of a person who feels he must ridicule every
>>word he says.
>
>I'm just returning the "favor."
>
>"If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike
>path and riding back and forth. That's too boring for me, but maybe
>someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>
>- Frank Krygowski
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/mmxzneaxsdE/m/qYtFPpL3AAAJ

Anyway... you never attended Frank's "how to ride a bicycle" school so
obviously you don't know nothing about how to ride a bicycle... just
like the millions of other people who ride bicycles all over the
world... and who have never heard of anyone named Krygowski. In fact,
I'd hazard a guess that there are some millions right there in the
U.S. who never heard of Krygowski.

There is a monument to the unknown soldier... should there be one
erected one to the unknown bicycle teacher?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 20:03:28 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 07:41:18 -0500, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 27 Nov 2023 13:20:10 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>><news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>>Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
>>>> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
>>>>>> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
>>>>>> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
>>>>>> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
>>>>>> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
>>>>>> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
>>>>>> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
>>>>>> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
>>>>>> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
>>>>>> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
>>>>>> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
>>>>>> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
>>>>>> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
>>>>>> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
>>>>>> considered making "headway".
>>>>>
>>>>> As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
>>>>> admitted to being wrong.
>>>>>
>>>>> I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
>>>>> impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
>>>>> thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
>>>>> direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
>>>>> discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
>>>>> thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
>>>>> materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
>>>>> was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
>>>>>
>>>>> We can discuss all those now, if people like.
>>>>
>>>> Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
>>>> his immature nonsense rants...
>>>>
>>>>>> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
>>>>>> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
>>>>>> people with childish names.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
>>>>> Things have gone downhill.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks to Krygowki.
>>>
>>>No, thanks to the arrival of a person who feels he must ridicule every
>>>word he says.
>>
>>I'm just returning the "favor."
>>
>>"If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>>are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike
>>path and riding back and forth. That's too boring for me, but maybe
>>someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>>
>>- Frank Krygowski
>>
>>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/mmxzneaxsdE/m/qYtFPpL3AAAJ
>
>Anyway... you never attended Frank's "how to ride a bicycle" school so
>obviously you don't know nothing about how to ride a bicycle... just
>like the millions of other people who ride bicycles all over the
>world... and who have never heard of anyone named Krygowski. In fact,
>I'd hazard a guess that there are some millions right there in the
>U.S. who never heard of Krygowski.
>
>There is a monument to the unknown soldier... should there be one
>erected one to the unknown bicycle teacher?

The poor little guy can't get into his bobblehead that the fact I ride
altogether different from him is none of his business, so I keep
having to remind him of his narcissism.

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 4:20:14 AM UTC-8, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> > On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
> >>> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
> >>> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
> >>> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
> >>> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
> >>> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
> >>> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
> >>> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
> >>> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
> >>> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
> >>> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
> >>> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
> >>>
> >>> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
> >>> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
> >>> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
> >>> considered making "headway".
> >>
> >> As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
> >> admitted to being wrong.
> >>
> >> I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
> >> impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
> >> thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
> >> direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
> >> discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
> >> thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
> >> materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
> >> was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
> >>
> >> We can discuss all those now, if people like.
> >
> > Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
> > his immature nonsense rants...
> >
> >>> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
> >>> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
> >>> people with childish names.
> >>
> >> Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
> >> Things have gone downhill.
> >
> > Thanks to Krygowki.
> No, thanks to the arrival of a person who feels he must ridicule every
> word he says.
Rolf, how could you possibly do anything other than ridicule Krygowski and Liebermann? What have either one EVER added to this group? Krygowski honestly believes that every word out of his mouth is pure gold and Liebermann doesn't even ride a bike and the pictures he showed of his bikes looked like an actual junk yard.

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
>On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:03:37 AM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:

Hee hee LOL!!! I got news for you. None of you know how to initiate a turn in a car, either.

www.tinyurl.com/thetheoryofslowturns

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 10:26:48 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
> On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:03:37 AM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > > Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> Hee hee LOL!!! I got news for you. None of you know how to initiate a turn in a car, either.
>
> www.tinyurl.com/thetheoryofslowturns
I actually raced motorcycles all over California so I can make turns fast or slow. In the meantime Krygowski is waiting for a random twitch in the correct direction he want to go.

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 9:21:23 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 10:26:48 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
> > On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:03:37 AM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > > > Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> > Hee hee LOL!!! I got news for you. None of you know how to initiate a turn in a car, either.
> >
> > www.tinyurl.com/thetheoryofslowturns
> I actually raced motorcycles all over California so I can make turns fast or slow. In the meantime Krygowski is waiting for a random twitch in the correct direction he want to go.
>
There's a yesbut here: Statistically, that a bike twitches left once does not mean that it will twitch right next, or even any time. And that's a bike that's been balanced down its centreline to within a picosomethingth of a gramme. A bike maintained by Krygowski, it follows, is therefore certain to turn in one direction much, much more often than in the other direction, so Krygowski will became used to turning, say, left, because the bike twitches him in that direction, and when the bike twitches to the right, his reflexes will betray him, and he will crash. That may explain how little he rides in his old age, probably a correct decision because he's too cheap to spend money on new hips. I could probably knock up an algorithm for how often Franki-boy will crash, and how many times he needs to crash to smash one hip, which will worsen his chances of smashing the second one as well. But I'd rather ride out and paint the different green the beloved isle turns in winter. -- AJ
>

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 4:21:23 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> I actually raced motorcycles all over California so I can make turns fast or slow. In the meantime Krygowski is waiting for a random twitch in the correct direction he want to go.

OK, I have to apologize to John. I just posted that he was apparently the only one here who didn't understand what
I was describing about sudden turns, countersteering, etc.

It turns out Tom couldn't understand it either! But I don't think that's going to make John feel any
better about his own lack of understanding.

-------------------------------------

For Tom: You've apparently missed a huge portion of the discussion. I described having to demonstrate
snap turns (among other emergency maneuvers) in cycling workshops and classes I took, including ones
for teaching certification. I described part of the methods used to test students. That involved performing
those instant turns over and over.

The "wait for a random twitch" is, I believe, how the least skilled cyclists initiate at least some turns. It has
nothing to do with my riding. Actually, I think everyone posting here is far beyond that level.

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:07:12 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 9:21:23 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 10:26:48 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:03:37 AM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > > > > Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> > > Hee hee LOL!!! I got news for you. None of you know how to initiate a turn in a car, either.
> > >
> > > www.tinyurl.com/thetheoryofslowturns
> > I actually raced motorcycles all over California so I can make turns fast or slow. In the meantime Krygowski is waiting for a random twitch in the correct direction he want to go.
> >
> There's a yesbut here: Statistically, that a bike twitches left once does not mean that it will twitch right next, or even any time. And that's a bike that's been balanced down its centreline to within a picosomethingth of a gramme. A bike maintained by Krygowski, it follows, is therefore certain to turn in one direction much, much more often than in the other direction, so Krygowski will became used to turning, say, left, because the bike twitches him in that direction, and when the bike twitches to the right, his reflexes will betray him, and he will crash. That may explain how little he rides in his old age, probably a correct decision because he's too cheap to spend money on new hips. I could probably knock up an algorithm for how often Franki-boy will crash, and how many times he needs to crash to smash one hip, which will worsen his chances of smashing the second one as well. But I'd rather ride out and paint the different green the beloved isle turns in winter. -- AJ
> >

It does not "twitch" right or left without a reason and that reason is pressure on the bars from the rider falling right or left from either the road surfaces or the rider trying to retain his balance. This is a complex process and Krygowski's claim that this is in some manner NOT a turn being instigated by a turn of the bars is his usual bullshit since he was never a real engineer at all.

On Tuesday, November 28, 2023 at 3:52:44 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:07:12 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 9:21:23 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 10:26:48 AM UTC-8, Doug Landau wrote:
> > > > On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 7:47:17 AM UTC-8, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > >On Monday, November 27, 2023 at 5:03:37 AM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> > > > > > Am 25.11.2023 um 20:28 schrieb Catrike Rider:
> > > > Hee hee LOL!!! I got news for you. None of you know how to initiate a turn in a car, either.
> > > >
> > > > www.tinyurl.com/thetheoryofslowturns
> > > I actually raced motorcycles all over California so I can make turns fast or slow. In the meantime Krygowski is waiting for a random twitch in the correct direction he want to go.
> > >
> > There's a yesbut here: Statistically, that a bike twitches left once does not mean that it will twitch right next, or even any time. And that's a bike that's been balanced down its centreline to within a picosomethingth of a gramme. A bike maintained by Krygowski, it follows, is therefore certain to turn in one direction much, much more often than in the other direction, so Krygowski will became used to turning, say, left, because the bike twitches him in that direction, and when the bike twitches to the right, his reflexes will betray him, and he will crash. That may explain how little he rides in his old age, probably a correct decision because he's too cheap to spend money on new hips. I could probably knock up an algorithm for how often Franki-boy will crash, and how many times he needs to crash to smash one hip, which will worsen his chances of smashing the second one as well. But I'd rather ride out and paint the different green the beloved isle turns in winter. -- AJ
> > >
> It does not "twitch" right or left without a reason and that reason is pressure on the bars from the rider falling right or left from either the road surfaces or the rider trying to retain his balance. This is a complex process and Krygowski's claim that this is in some manner NOT a turn being instigated by a turn of the bars is his usual bullshit since he was never a real engineer at all.
>
Yes, I know. I was being sarcastic, describing the consequences of Krygowski's ignorance on Franki-boy himself, from a God's-eye-viewpoint. In real life the silliest thing in this thread is Franki-boy's implicit claim that he's such a perfect rider that he never, ever unbalances the bike -- steers it into a turn, as you have it. Trying to educate Franki-boy is like throwing pebbles at a dungheap of ignorance. -- AJ
>

On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 12:43:09 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 26 Nov 2023 13:59:43 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>Regarding the natural sinuous path of the front wheel when
>>riding 'straight', Conan Doyle used that in a story when
>>Holmes and Watson chanced on a bicycle's trail on a wet
>>path. Which way was the bicycle traveling? Holmes explained
>>in his terse style, "Of course the rear wheel always follows
>>the front." leaving the reader to work out the details.
>
>Thanks. I used to be a fanatical reader of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
>stories, pastiches and parodies, when I was much younger. I recall
>the story in "The Adventures of the Priory School", but gave up trying
>to deduce how it works. Now, I find a retired college math teacher
>has documented the effect:
>
>"Sherlock Holmes and the Bicycle Tracks" (2004)
><https://mathweb.ucsd.edu/~ebender/Supplements/Freshman%20Seminar/bicycle.pdf>

>It looks correct, but I need some time to better understand it.

It is correct, but fails to clearly explain where to put the tangent
line and what to do with it to determine direction of travel. I read
several other web pages, but didn't find anything better. For
example, this article seems to be the least confusing, but fails to
explain clearly how to draw the tangent lines and how to use them.
<https://abakcus.com/article/sherlock-holmes-most-difficult-math-problem-bicycle-tracks/>
However, it does explain a few things (such as riding in a circle)
which is why I included it.

This YouTube video explains it clearly:
"Bicycle Tracks - Which Way Did the Bicycle Go?"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETnbfZUW8zY>

Also, here is my contribution to the muddle:

1. Determine which tracks are the front and rear tires. The
amplitude of the rear track is less than that of the front track.

2. Select any random tangent point on the rear bicycle track.

3. Draw a line through this tangent point. The line should intersect
the front tire track at two points. Do this several times with
several tangents.

4. The tangent lines that are in the forward direction are all
(approximately) the same length. The lines that vary substantially,
are in the trailing direction.

>If the bicycle tires have unidirectional tread patterns, such as the
>chevrons common on tractor tires, one can deduce the direction of
>travel from the direction of the chevrons.
><https://www.google.com/search?q=chevron+tractor+tires&udm=2>

That's cheating and doesn't account for the rider who installs his
tires backwards.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 10 Feb 2024 19:34:56 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>4. The tangent lines that are in the forward direction are all
>(approximately) the same length. The lines that vary substantially,
>are in the trailing direction.

Oops. That should be:

4. The tangent lines that are in the forward direction are all
(approximately) the same length. The lines that vary substantially,
are in the opposite direction.
^^^^^^^^

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558