https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html

Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.

On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
>
> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
>
I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
>

On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
>>
>> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
>>
>I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
>>

I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
spokes.

In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
over-rated.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
> >>
> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
> >>
> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
> >>
> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
> spokes.
>
> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
> over-rated.
Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.

On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
>> >>
>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
>> >>
>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
>> >>
>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
>> spokes.
>>
>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
>> over-rated.
>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.

Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
of.

On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 9:14:09 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> >> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
> >> >>
> >> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
> >> >>
> >> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
> >> >>
> >> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
> >> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
> >> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
> >> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
> >> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
> >> spokes.
> >>
> >> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
> >> over-rated.
> >Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
> Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
> of.

Indeed he has, but it is NOT in engineering. He spent almost his entire life as an electronics technician. He admits that the state of the art electronics he was taught to get his "degree" was vacuum tubes. I was designing things with vacuum tubes when I was 16! So in fact his degree is useless. Now as a technician he appears to have made a passable living so I will give him that. But his ignorance and abuse claiming that his degree gives him the slightest advantage is pure bullshit.

On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:14:04 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
>>> >>
>>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
>>> >>
>>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
>>> >>
>>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
>>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
>>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
>>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
>>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
>>> spokes.
>>>
>>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
>>> over-rated.
>>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
>
>Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
>of.

Well, it all depends on what Tom means by "technical task". A
technical task might well be designing of a high rise building. Or it
might be welding the steel framework for that building. Very different
tasks requiring very different skills. One would expect the building
designer to have a collage education while the welder might not be
able to read or write.

Perhaps it comes from some urge for the less important to show the
world that they are not inferior? People who used to be identified as
"computer programmers" now refer to themselves as "Software engineers"
and even the blokes dumping garbage cans in the big yellow trucks
refer to themselves as "Sanitation Engineers".

Funny though, those that have accomplished something never seem to
use such grandiose terms. I had an uncle by marriage, my mother's
oldest sister's husband, who was the head of the chemistry department
at the state University and if you asked him what he did he'd say
something like, "Oh, I teach a bit at the school". Just as Mr. Muzi's
"claim to fame" seems to be "we've been open every day since 1971 (or
some such ancient "pre Hand phone era).

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 07:21:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:14:04 -0500, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
>>>> >>
>>>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
>>>> >>
>>>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
>>>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
>>>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
>>>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
>>>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
>>>> spokes.
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
>>>> over-rated.
>>>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
>>
>>Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
>>of.
>
>Well, it all depends on what Tom means by "technical task". A
>technical task might well be designing of a high rise building. Or it
>might be welding the steel framework for that building. Very different
>tasks requiring very different skills. One would expect the building
>designer to have a collage education while the welder might not be
>able to read or write.
>
>Perhaps it comes from some urge for the less important to show the
>world that they are not inferior? People who used to be identified as
>"computer programmers" now refer to themselves as "Software engineers"
>and even the blokes dumping garbage cans in the big yellow trucks
>refer to themselves as "Sanitation Engineers".
>
>Funny though, those that have accomplished something never seem to
>use such grandiose terms. I had an uncle by marriage, my mother's
>oldest sister's husband, who was the head of the chemistry department
>at the state University and if you asked him what he did he'd say
>something like, "Oh, I teach a bit at the school". Just as Mr. Muzi's
>"claim to fame" seems to be "we've been open every day since 1971 (or
>some such ancient "pre Hand phone era).

If one has actually accomplished something of value, he doesn't have
to brag about it. It shows. It also shows when a person hasn't
accomplished anything of value.

In my opinion, getting an education isn't an accomplishment, it's
acquiring a tool which can then be used to try to accomplish something
of value.

On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 03:17:12 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 07:21:33 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:14:04 -0500, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
>>><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
>>>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
>>>>> >>
>>>>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
>>>>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
>>>>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
>>>>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
>>>>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
>>>>> spokes.
>>>>>
>>>>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
>>>>> over-rated.
>>>>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
>>>
>>>Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
>>>of.
>>
>>Well, it all depends on what Tom means by "technical task". A
>>technical task might well be designing of a high rise building. Or it
>>might be welding the steel framework for that building. Very different
>>tasks requiring very different skills. One would expect the building
>>designer to have a collage education while the welder might not be
>>able to read or write.
>>
>>Perhaps it comes from some urge for the less important to show the
>>world that they are not inferior? People who used to be identified as
>>"computer programmers" now refer to themselves as "Software engineers"
>>and even the blokes dumping garbage cans in the big yellow trucks
>>refer to themselves as "Sanitation Engineers".
>>
>>Funny though, those that have accomplished something never seem to
>>use such grandiose terms. I had an uncle by marriage, my mother's
>>oldest sister's husband, who was the head of the chemistry department
>>at the state University and if you asked him what he did he'd say
>>something like, "Oh, I teach a bit at the school". Just as Mr. Muzi's
>>"claim to fame" seems to be "we've been open every day since 1971 (or
>>some such ancient "pre Hand phone era).
>
>
>If one has actually accomplished something of value, he doesn't have
>to brag about it. It shows. It also shows when a person hasn't
>accomplished anything of value.
>
>In my opinion, getting an education isn't an accomplishment, it's
>acquiring a tool which can then be used to try to accomplish something
>of value.

Of course it is a tool. Grab a collage graduate and hand him/her/it a
ball of yarn and a couple of knitting needles and say, "Right! Make me
a sweater!". After all, my old Granny, with her 4 or so years of "book
learning" could, made several every winter (:-)

(him/her/it - socially correct term for the various sexes in the U.S.)
(( No Mr. Muzi the answer is not "Yes" and "No"))
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 8:17:17 AM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 07:21:33 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:14:04 -0500, Catrike Rider
> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> >>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
> >>>> >>
> >>>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
> >>>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
> >>>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
> >>>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
> >>>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
> >>>> spokes.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
> >>>> over-rated.
> >>>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
> >>
> >>Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
> >>of.
> >
> >Well, it all depends on what Tom means by "technical task". A
> >technical task might well be designing of a high rise building. Or it
> >might be welding the steel framework for that building. Very different
> >tasks requiring very different skills. One would expect the building
> >designer to have a collage education while the welder might not be
> >able to read or write.
> >
> >Perhaps it comes from some urge for the less important to show the
> >world that they are not inferior? People who used to be identified as
> >"computer programmers" now refer to themselves as "Software engineers"
> >and even the blokes dumping garbage cans in the big yellow trucks
> >refer to themselves as "Sanitation Engineers".
> >
> >Funny though, those that have accomplished something never seem to
> >use such grandiose terms. I had an uncle by marriage, my mother's
> >oldest sister's husband, who was the head of the chemistry department
> >at the state University and if you asked him what he did he'd say
> >something like, "Oh, I teach a bit at the school". Just as Mr. Muzi's
> >"claim to fame" seems to be "we've been open every day since 1971 (or
> >some such ancient "pre Hand phone era).
> If one has actually accomplished something of value, he doesn't have
> to brag about it. It shows. It also shows when a person hasn't
> accomplished anything of value.
>
> In my opinion, getting an education isn't an accomplishment, it's
> acquiring a tool which can then be used to try to accomplish something
> of value.
>
I don't think it is even that clearcut. I never practiced psychiatry: the nearest I came was practicing mass market motivational psychology in advertising. And, unless you count teaching as practice, or helping a government department choose their year's intake among the honors students, nor did I ever practice macro-economics, though of course by definition every economist spends his life practicing micro-economics (micro is just what people do in everyday life -- including what economists do). But the ruthlessly logical analysis of every activity which I learned from my teachers is what actually shaped my life and my work. In fact, I doubt that anything I learned at college, which back then might have had therapeutic use, is still considered wise and some of it, like electro-shock treatment for some mental disturbances, would probably be regarded as criminal malpractice (as I regarded it even back then) -- but I learned from Freud (among others) to think clearly and write really well, which gave me an entertaining and rewarding career when I got bored with cities.
>
In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind. For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and thermionic tubes, which brings us full circle to poor Liebermann being ripped off for an already obsolete education. It's easy: identify a suitable text, internalise whatever is directly useful from it while ingesting no more than a mnemonic framework of the rest so that you can find whatever may become relevant. Example in a review of the premier text on thermionic tubes which I wrote for Glass Audio: https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS%20RDH.html.
>
Andre Jute
Endlessly curious.
>

On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 12:17:17 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 07:21:33 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:14:04 -0500, Catrike Rider
> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >>On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> >><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> >>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
> >>>> >>
> >>>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
> >>>> >>
> >>>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
> >>>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
> >>>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
> >>>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
> >>>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
> >>>> spokes.
> >>>>
> >>>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
> >>>> over-rated.
> >>>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
> >>
> >>Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
> >>of.
> >
> >Well, it all depends on what Tom means by "technical task". A
> >technical task might well be designing of a high rise building. Or it
> >might be welding the steel framework for that building. Very different
> >tasks requiring very different skills. One would expect the building
> >designer to have a collage education while the welder might not be
> >able to read or write.
> >
> >Perhaps it comes from some urge for the less important to show the
> >world that they are not inferior? People who used to be identified as
> >"computer programmers" now refer to themselves as "Software engineers"
> >and even the blokes dumping garbage cans in the big yellow trucks
> >refer to themselves as "Sanitation Engineers".
> >
> >Funny though, those that have accomplished something never seem to
> >use such grandiose terms. I had an uncle by marriage, my mother's
> >oldest sister's husband, who was the head of the chemistry department
> >at the state University and if you asked him what he did he'd say
> >something like, "Oh, I teach a bit at the school". Just as Mr. Muzi's
> >"claim to fame" seems to be "we've been open every day since 1971 (or
> >some such ancient "pre Hand phone era).
> If one has actually accomplished something of value, he doesn't have
> to brag about it. It shows. It also shows when a person hasn't
> accomplished anything of value.
>
> In my opinion, getting an education isn't an accomplishment, it's
> acquiring a tool which can then be used to try to accomplish something
> of value.

Jobst is dead and this is a book about his effect on the sport or bicycling in America. He did have a very positive effect and people that don't know anything about Jobst other than his iron fist on these groups should know about him.
j

On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 6:17:59 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 8, 2023 at 8:17:17 AM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 07:21:33 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >On Tue, 07 Nov 2023 12:14:04 -0500, Catrike Rider
> > ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 08:07:14 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
> > >><cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>On Tuesday, November 7, 2023 at 6:23:41?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > >>>> On Tue, 7 Nov 2023 06:06:16 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
> > >>>> <fiul...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > >>>> >On Monday, November 6, 2023 at 5:58:20?PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>> >> https://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bop/d/mountain-view-jobst-brandt-ride-bike/7684706987.html
> > >>>> >>
> > >>>> >> Now while it might seem funny my posting an ad for a book on Jobst, as a cyclist he actually did help to for the entire sport of cycling especially in California and instead of remembering the bad things he occasionally did it is better to remember him for the good that he mostly did.
> > >>>> >>
> > >>>> >I have a copy of The Bicycle Wheel by Jobst Brandt. It is an excellent book, but it is an engineering text, not a handbook for newbies to build a wheel. -- AJ
> > >>>> >>
> > >>>> I just built a wheel and I didn't read any books. I just googled "how
> > >>>> to select the right spoke, and everything else came from observing
> > >>>> some wheels and asking a few questions on this forum. In a world
> > >>>> without the internet, all anyone should need to build a wheel is not a
> > >>>> book or an instructor, but a simple short paragraph on selecting
> > >>>> spokes.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In my opinion and experience, formal structured education is vastly
> > >>>> over-rated.
> > >>>Obama caused what is now called "the paper ceiling" where fools like Krygowski and Flunky prefer to believe that although over 50% of all technical tasks are done by people without a diploma they can cry that without a formal education in a college you couldn't possibly complete a task. Liebermann is a perfect example of that paper ceiling yielding nothing at all.
> > >>
> > >>Mr Liebermann has technical experience and knowlege I am very envious
> > >>of.
> > >
> > >Well, it all depends on what Tom means by "technical task". A
> > >technical task might well be designing of a high rise building. Or it
> > >might be welding the steel framework for that building. Very different
> > >tasks requiring very different skills. One would expect the building
> > >designer to have a collage education while the welder might not be
> > >able to read or write.
> > >
> > >Perhaps it comes from some urge for the less important to show the
> > >world that they are not inferior? People who used to be identified as
> > >"computer programmers" now refer to themselves as "Software engineers"
> > >and even the blokes dumping garbage cans in the big yellow trucks
> > >refer to themselves as "Sanitation Engineers".
> > >
> > >Funny though, those that have accomplished something never seem to
> > >use such grandiose terms. I had an uncle by marriage, my mother's
> > >oldest sister's husband, who was the head of the chemistry department
> > >at the state University and if you asked him what he did he'd say
> > >something like, "Oh, I teach a bit at the school". Just as Mr. Muzi's
> > >"claim to fame" seems to be "we've been open every day since 1971 (or
> > >some such ancient "pre Hand phone era).
> > If one has actually accomplished something of value, he doesn't have
> > to brag about it. It shows. It also shows when a person hasn't
> > accomplished anything of value.
> >
> > In my opinion, getting an education isn't an accomplishment, it's
> > acquiring a tool which can then be used to try to accomplish something
> > of value.
> >
> I don't think it is even that clearcut. I never practiced psychiatry: the nearest I came was practicing mass market motivational psychology in advertising. And, unless you count teaching as practice, or helping a government department choose their year's intake among the honors students, nor did I ever practice macro-economics, though of course by definition every economist spends his life practicing micro-economics (micro is just what people do in everyday life -- including what economists do). But the ruthlessly logical analysis of every activity which I learned from my teachers is what actually shaped my life and my work. In fact, I doubt that anything I learned at college, which back then might have had therapeutic use, is still considered wise and some of it, like electro-shock treatment for some mental disturbances, would probably be regarded as criminal malpractice (as I regarded it even back then) -- but I learned from Freud (among others) to think clearly and write really well, which gave me an entertaining and rewarding career when I got bored with cities.
> >
> In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind. For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and thermionic tubes, which brings us full circle to poor Liebermann being ripped off for an already obsolete education. It's easy: identify a suitable text, internalise whatever is directly useful from it while ingesting no more than a mnemonic framework of the rest so that you can find whatever may become relevant. Example in a review of the premier text on thermionic tubes which I wrote for Glass Audio: https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS%20RDH.html.
> >
> Andre Jute
> Endlessly curious.
> >

The fact is that Liebermann had to be a very poor student to believe that he had an education when they were teaching him vacuum tubes 10 years after I was buying old radios to strip the tubes and power supplies out of to experiment with. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason that he couldn't have bought or borrowed books about transistors, integrated circuits and highly integrated digital logic as I did.

His bullshit pretense of having an education somehow superior to mine demonstrates his continued egotistical idiocy. I made much more than a very good living and have no fear of the future, He is on welfare and telling people he is an electronics engineer.

On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 06:17:57 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind. For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and thermionic tubes, which brings us full circle to poor Liebermann being ripped off for an already obsolete education. It's easy: identify a suitable text, internalise whatever is directly useful from it while ingesting no more than a mnemonic framework of the rest so that you can find whatever may become relevant. Example in a review of the premier text on thermionic tubes which I wrote for Glass Audio: https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS%20RDH.html.

You mean this book?
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/LUJkSouTvMeKMF9c7>
I have the 4th edition (1952). I once had a first edition (1934) but
sold it for a tidy sum.

I didn't use it much while I was in college. Looking back through the
1498 page, I would probably have some difficulties USING the book for
design. That's because I'm used to computer models (SPICE) and
probing the signal path with an oscilloscope. I would guess(tm) that
if there had been further editions it would have included nomograms,
Smith Charts, SPICE simulations and more modern test equipment
suitable for study when I was in college (1965 to 1971). In other
words, if you wanted to design or analyze something with 1953 vintage
components and methods, the Radiotron Designers Handbook 4th edition
is quite useful.

You can download a copy from:
<http://www.tubebooks.org/books/rdh4.pdf> (24.5MB).
The PDF is not searchable.
Or, just buy a used hard copy:
<https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=radiotron+designers+handbook>

Anyway, thank you for all the derogatory comments. The
self-aggrandizement also made humorous reading. I would gladly debate
the value of my college education and such, but not for a few days. My
welding project went awry when I discovered that I couldn't flux weld
inside the stove because my head, mask, hands and welding head would
not fit through the door of the stove. I also misread the setup
instructions resulting in my initial welds being cosmetically
disgusting. The 10" diamond masonry blade arrived today from Georgia
(2 days late due to a railroad accident), so I should be able to cut
the firebrick to size and burn wood tomorrow evening. At the same
time, I just finished rebuilding the 1960's bathroom electric heater.
It runs but I need to make some measurements to make sure it doesn't
trip a circuit breaker (again). These projects take precedence over
character assassination and defending my reputation in RBT. I'm also
about 400 message behind in reading RBT. Please carry on. I should
be back eventually. More photos later:
<https://photos.app.goo.gl/EUknsZj8HBxa165w6>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 08 Nov 2023 19:12:00 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 8 Nov 2023 06:17:57 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
><fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>>In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind. For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and thermionic tubes, which brings us full circle to poor Liebermann being ripped off for an already obsolete education. It's easy: identify a suitable text, internalise whatever is directly useful from it while ingesting no more than a mnemonic framework of the rest so that you can find whatever may become relevant. Example in a review of the premier text on thermionic tubes which I wrote for Glass Audio: https://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/JUTE%20ON%20AMPS%20RDH.html.
>
>You mean this book?
><https://photos.app.goo.gl/LUJkSouTvMeKMF9c7>
>I have the 4th edition (1952). I once had a first edition (1934) but
>sold it for a tidy sum.
>
>I didn't use it much while I was in college. Looking back through the
>1498 page, I would probably have some difficulties USING the book for
>design. That's because I'm used to computer models (SPICE) and
>probing the signal path with an oscilloscope. I would guess(tm) that
>if there had been further editions it would have included nomograms,
>Smith Charts, SPICE simulations and more modern test equipment
>suitable for study when I was in college (1965 to 1971). In other
>words, if you wanted to design or analyze something with 1953 vintage
>components and methods, the Radiotron Designers Handbook 4th edition
>is quite useful.
>
>You can download a copy from:
><http://www.tubebooks.org/books/rdh4.pdf> (24.5MB).
>The PDF is not searchable.
>Or, just buy a used hard copy:
><https://www.alibris.com/booksearch?mtype=B&keyword=radiotron+designers+handbook>
>
>Anyway, thank you for all the derogatory comments. The
>self-aggrandizement also made humorous reading. I would gladly debate
>the value of my college education and such, but not for a few days. My
>welding project went awry when I discovered that I couldn't flux weld
>inside the stove because my head, mask, hands and welding head would
>not fit through the door of the stove. I also misread the setup
>instructions resulting in my initial welds being cosmetically
>disgusting. The 10" diamond masonry blade arrived today from Georgia
>(2 days late due to a railroad accident), so I should be able to cut
>the firebrick to size and burn wood tomorrow evening. At the same
>time, I just finished rebuilding the 1960's bathroom electric heater.
>It runs but I need to make some measurements to make sure it doesn't
>trip a circuit breaker (again). These projects take precedence over
>character assassination and defending my reputation in RBT. I'm also
>about 400 message behind in reading RBT. Please carry on. I should
>be back eventually. More photos later:
><https://photos.app.goo.gl/EUknsZj8HBxa165w6>

Re welding. You know, I hope, that single side welding is a common
practice. You simply "vee out" the material to the point that the root
pass will achieve 100% penetration and then fill the remainder of the
vee with subsequent passes.

Way back when we welded pipelines by hand there was even a practice
where we ran the root pass with one type of (expensive) rod and
subsequent filler passes with a cheaper rod.

If the outer portion of the "V" is too wide to fill with a single
straight pass you can run a series of straight passes, side by side,
or a weave pass where you weld back and forth across the vee
progressing down the length of the vee a bit with each pass.

All arc welding, of course, but no reason that you can't do the same
thing with your "wire welder".

I've used the term "penetration" which in the welding world is simply
that the weld melts both the rod and the parent (what you are welding)
material so that they flow together and become one. Not just sticking
the weld material on the top of the parent material (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/8/2023 9:17 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university
course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the
habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind.

Absolute bullshit. To pick just one portion of an ME degree, in a couple
months you wouldn't be able to master the fundamentals of fluid
mechanics. Properties of fluids, fluid friction, loss coefficients,
power requirements, flow rates, open channel flow, etc. And those topics
are less than one textbook worth of information.

> For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done
considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and
thermionic tubes...

Bullshit. You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
That's far different from "considerable engineering."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/8/2023 9:17 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university
> course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the
> habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind.>
>
> Absolute bullshit. To pick just one portion of an ME degree, in a couple
> months you wouldn't be able to master the fundamentals of fluid
> mechanics. Properties of fluids, fluid friction, loss coefficients,
> power requirements, flow rates, open channel flow, etc. And those topics
> are less than one textbook worth of information.
>
Speak for yourself, Franki-boy. You may, unsurprisingly, not be able to do what I do because you're a dullard and have slack work habits, but -- fortunately! -- the rest of us aren't you.
>
> > For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done
> considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and
> thermionic tubes...
>
> Bullshit. You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
> That's far different from "considerable engineering."
>
And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was then, and made a fool of yourself for starting a fight with me over it? Man, you're a fuckwit of infinite amazement. How do you, for instance, think I was invited to write a book about designing and building and developing prototype cars?
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
What a blithering, blathering moron! You should keep your mouth shut, Franki-boy, so that your ignorance doesn't run out.
>
Andre Jute
BTW, Franki-boy, since you're such an authority on everything, where are you definitive texts on any subject whatsoever?
>

On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:10:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/8/2023 9:17 AM, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > In any event, the actual content of a three or four year university
> > course anyone can learn in a couple of months -- given, of course, the
> > habit of work, a trained memory, and an analytical mind.>
> >
> > Absolute bullshit. To pick just one portion of an ME degree, in a couple
> > months you wouldn't be able to master the fundamentals of fluid
> > mechanics. Properties of fluids, fluid friction, loss coefficients,
> > power requirements, flow rates, open channel flow, etc. And those topics
> > are less than one textbook worth of information.
> >
> Speak for yourself, Franki-boy. You may, unsurprisingly, not be able to do what I do because you're a dullard and have slack work habits, but -- fortunately! -- the rest of us aren't you.
> >
> > > For instance, I wasn't trained in engineering but I've done
> > considerable engineering in automobiles, ships, buildings, and
> > thermionic tubes...
> >
> > Bullshit. You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
> > That's far different from "considerable engineering."
> >
> And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was then, and made a fool of yourself for starting a fight with me over it? Man, you're a fuckwit of infinite amazement. How do you, for instance, think I was invited to write a book about designing and building and developing prototype cars?
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> What a blithering, blathering moron! You should keep your mouth shut, Franki-boy, so that your ignorance doesn't run out.
> >
> Andre Jute
> BTW, Franki-boy, since you're such an authority on everything, where are you definitive texts on any subject whatsoever?
> >
Krygowski has a need to believe that NO ONE could learn anything without the help of him. Just like no one should ride a bike that isn't heavyweight steel with a freewheel and friction shifting. Even Bob Roll who was racing before Krygowski knew what a bicycle was said that Shimano click shifting MADE racing He uses bar ends but they are click shifting and not friction. And horror of horrors, he uses a freehub and cassettes.

I learned complete electronics engineering from little more than books (and an Air Force 3 month course in electronics fundamentals). And I did the mechanical engineering of the table motions on several machines and the heating and cooling on others. What the hell is so hard about having to look things up? I had to recalculate the mechanical response of the poison gas detectors when the dumbass PhD's got it incorrect.

Krygowski is so convinced that the world couldn't turn without him that he is pitiful.

On 11/10/2023 5:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:10:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
>>> That's far different from "considerable engineering."
>>>
>> And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know
for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of
the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was ...

For those unfamiliar with Andre Jute: He first entered this discussion
group during a discussion of bike aerodynamics. He described his bicycle
and his upright posture (sometimes referred to as "sit up and beg") and
claimed it was so aerodynamic he had coasted down a short local hill at
60 mph.

I called bullshit, and still do. After much back and forth with me and
other skeptics, Jute injected further details into the story of his
purported speed record. He said he'd hired a local farmer, had him bolt
a huge piece of plywood across the tail of a truck to form a windbreak,
then had the farmer drive fast down the hill, using a rope to tow Jute
and his bike up to speed.

That's an odd way to demonstrate aerodynamics of a bike. And I'll let
the readers judge whether it's likely that story is true.

> Krygowski has a need to believe that NO ONE could learn anything
without the help of him.

Nope. I've known hundreds of students who were well educated by other
professors. Yes, there are some true autodidacts, but above a certain
level of complexity of subject material, they are very rare.

I don't believe anyone posting here could have mastered engineering by
_just_ reading books. I say that as a person who has corrected probably
hundreds of thousands of student mistakes.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 1:13:43 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 11/10/2023 5:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:10:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> >> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>
> >>> You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
> >>> That's far different from "considerable engineering."
> >>>
> >> And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know
> for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of
> the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was ...
>
And here Franki-boy cut the rest of my sentence: '... then, and made a fool of yourself for starting a fight with me over it?" That's a fact that other members of the group mentioned to me later was the trigger-point at which realised Krygowski lost the argument because of his irrationality; no wonder he tries to hide it.
>
> For those unfamiliar with Andre Jute: He first entered this discussion
> group during a discussion of bike aerodynamics. He described his bicycle
> and his upright posture (sometimes referred to as "sit up and beg") and
> claimed it was so aerodynamic he had coasted down a short local hill at
> 60 mph.
>
That's an outright lie. I described using an adjustable stem to put my hands almost down at mudguard level to give me a flat back and suitable aerodynamics. I do know a great deal more than you do about aerodynamics, Franki-boy.
>
> I called bullshit, and still do.
>
Of course you do. You made a fool of yourself over it, claiming that I said I rode a bike at 100mph, and didn't have the humility to admit your error when I pointed out that Europeans use kph, kilometres per hour and that my personal ton-up record was only 62mph.
>
> After much back and forth with me and
> other skeptics,
>
"Back and forth", eh? Is that what you call it. I was hounded by your claque, of whom I've long since disposed, just allowing you to stay as an example of what happens to scum who try interfere in my birthright of free speech..

>Jute injected further details into the story of his
> purported speed record.
>
"Purported"? Really? You've had thirteen or fourteen years to prove I told a lie, Franki-boy, and you haven't proven shit. Now shit or get off the pot.
>
> He said he'd hired a local farmer, had him bolt
> a huge piece of plywood across the tail of a truck to form a windbreak,
>
That's another outright lie and a dumb one at that. Only a moron like you, Franki-boy, would think I'd trust an amateur with my limbs and my life. I hired a farmer to block both ends of a country lane. The guy in the truck was a professional driver. Nor was I towed down the hill, as you claim. I was towed up the hill behind the truck and before the peak the truck pulled off and I shot over the brow.
>
> then had the farmer drive fast down the hill, using a rope to tow Jute
> and his bike up to speed.
>
This is the same lie again. You're going senile, Franki-boy, one of the symptoms being progressive memory failure.
>
> That's an odd way to demonstrate aerodynamics of a bike.
>
That's another lie from Franki-boy's dull imagination. Like Mr Kunich says, Krygowski is so stupid and unobservant that even at this late stage of his life he thinks everyone perforce must have the same interests he has. I have zero interest in bicycle aerodynamics; they're a dead end for compulsive-obsessive personalities without lives. (If you don't know that I spent the early part of my life racing everything that would take an internal combustion engine, my interest in aerodynamics start at 115mph, the minimum point where they start to impact modern racing cars more than fractionally, not at my personal ton-up best speed in kilomers on a bike.)
>
>And I'll let
> the readers judge whether it's likely that story is true.
>
Oh dear! You think I care shit what anyone in your much reduced claque thinks? After I spent years demonstrating my public contempt for you and anyone who agrees with you? For the sake of shortstopping pointless correspondence, it is my opinion that any cyclist who doubts that another cyclist can go 62mph and change -- is a moron just like Franki-boy. a wishful thinker and a wanker, again just like Franki-boy.
>
> > Krygowski has a need to believe that NO ONE could learn anything
> without the help of him.
>
I just spent a frustrating five minutes trying to think of anything Franki-boy could help me learn, and that includes the entire field of engineering. Zero result. Besides being an stubbornly ignorant fool, Krygowski is so immoral that he'd probably tell me something wrong on purpose in the hope that I would injure myself.
>
> Nope. I've known hundreds of students who were well educated by other
> professors.
>
"Other professors". You lie by implication, Franki-boy: you weren't a "professor", you were a jumped-up welding instructor.
>
>Yes, there are some true autodidacts,
>
I didn't say anything about being an autodidact. I had wonderful teachers who inculcated critical thinking. Furthermore, unlike little people like you, I feel no pain admitting ignorance in any subject, or even holes in subjects on which I'm considered a leading authority. Consequently, I seek out the advice of experts all the time, and work happily beside them. But you wouldn't know this because you think ignorance is a shameful failure -- while I see it as process of improving my product and making a new friend. Anyhow, you don't know shit that I want to know about, and if I did want to know, I'd ask someone who was at college with me and did rise to be a professor and write highly regarded texts, not some stray jerk on a Google group.

> but above a certain
> level of complexity of subject material, they are very rare.
>
That's funny. When I wanted to study savants, I put together a panel of nine subjects in a couple of hours at the psych facility I set up in Boston for my advertising agency, and delivered my induction talk to them the afternoon of the same day.
>
> I don't believe anyone posting here could have mastered engineering by
> _just_ reading books.
>
But Tom didn't say that, you dolt, he said he built circuits as a boy, he was taught the basics by the Air Force, and there were no doubt senior men to observe and learn from. Nor did I say anything at all about "just reading books". You made that up from the whole cloth, Franki-boy. It's another lie you're telling all and sundry.
>
> I say that as a person who has corrected probably
> hundreds of thousands of student mistakes.
>
Even students with such low entry scores that they end up at some provincial clown show of a college in the charge of an undistinguished lifelong third-rater like you -- a clown who brags about correcting students! -- don't deserve to have their confidence undermined by a fool like you, Franki-boy.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski
>
A Polish peasant dumber than a frostbitten potato.
>
Andre Jute
Genius is a form of successful dilettantism.
>

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:03:18 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 1:13:43 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 11/10/2023 5:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:10:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > >> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
> > >>> That's far different from "considerable engineering."
> > >>>
> > >> And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know
> > for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of
> > the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was ...
> >
> And here Franki-boy cut the rest of my sentence: '... then, and made a fool of yourself for starting a fight with me over it?" That's a fact that other members of the group mentioned to me later was the trigger-point at which realised Krygowski lost the argument because of his irrationality; no wonder he tries to hide it.
> >
> > For those unfamiliar with Andre Jute: He first entered this discussion
> > group during a discussion of bike aerodynamics. He described his bicycle
> > and his upright posture (sometimes referred to as "sit up and beg") and
> > claimed it was so aerodynamic he had coasted down a short local hill at
> > 60 mph.
> >
> That's an outright lie. I described using an adjustable stem to put my hands almost down at mudguard level to give me a flat back and suitable aerodynamics. I do know a great deal more than you do about aerodynamics, Franki-boy.
> >
> > I called bullshit, and still do.
> >
> Of course you do. You made a fool of yourself over it, claiming that I said I rode a bike at 100mph, and didn't have the humility to admit your error when I pointed out that Europeans use kph, kilometres per hour and that my personal ton-up record was only 62mph.
> >
> > After much back and forth with me and
> > other skeptics,
> >
> "Back and forth", eh? Is that what you call it. I was hounded by your claque, of whom I've long since disposed, just allowing you to stay as an example of what happens to scum who try interfere in my birthright of free speech.
> >Jute injected further details into the story of his
> > purported speed record.
> >
> "Purported"? Really? You've had thirteen or fourteen years to prove I told a lie, Franki-boy, and you haven't proven shit. Now shit or get off the pot.
> >
> > He said he'd hired a local farmer, had him bolt
> > a huge piece of plywood across the tail of a truck to form a windbreak,
> >
> That's another outright lie and a dumb one at that. Only a moron like you, Franki-boy, would think I'd trust an amateur with my limbs and my life. I hired a farmer to block both ends of a country lane. The guy in the truck was a professional driver. Nor was I towed down the hill, as you claim. I was towed up the hill behind the truck and before the peak the truck pulled off and I shot over the brow.
> >
> > then had the farmer drive fast down the hill, using a rope to tow Jute
> > and his bike up to speed.
> >
> This is the same lie again. You're going senile, Franki-boy, one of the symptoms being progressive memory failure.
> >
> > That's an odd way to demonstrate aerodynamics of a bike.
> >
> That's another lie from Franki-boy's dull imagination. Like Mr Kunich says, Krygowski is so stupid and unobservant that even at this late stage of his life he thinks everyone perforce must have the same interests he has. I have zero interest in bicycle aerodynamics; they're a dead end for compulsive-obsessive personalities without lives. (If you don't know that I spent the early part of my life racing everything that would take an internal combustion engine, my interest in aerodynamics start at 115mph, the minimum point where they start to impact modern racing cars more than fractionally, not at my personal ton-up best speed in kilomers on a bike.)
> >
> >And I'll let
> > the readers judge whether it's likely that story is true.
> >
> Oh dear! You think I care shit what anyone in your much reduced claque thinks? After I spent years demonstrating my public contempt for you and anyone who agrees with you? For the sake of shortstopping pointless correspondence, it is my opinion that any cyclist who doubts that another cyclist can go 62mph and change -- is a moron just like Franki-boy. a wishful thinker and a wanker, again just like Franki-boy.
> >
> > > Krygowski has a need to believe that NO ONE could learn anything
> > without the help of him.
> >
> I just spent a frustrating five minutes trying to think of anything Franki-boy could help me learn, and that includes the entire field of engineering. Zero result. Besides being an stubbornly ignorant fool, Krygowski is so immoral that he'd probably tell me something wrong on purpose in the hope that I would injure myself.
> >
> > Nope. I've known hundreds of students who were well educated by other
> > professors.
> >
> "Other professors". You lie by implication, Franki-boy: you weren't a "professor", you were a jumped-up welding instructor.
> >
> >Yes, there are some true autodidacts,
> >
> I didn't say anything about being an autodidact. I had wonderful teachers who inculcated critical thinking. Furthermore, unlike little people like you, I feel no pain admitting ignorance in any subject, or even holes in subjects on which I'm considered a leading authority. Consequently, I seek out the advice of experts all the time, and work happily beside them. But you wouldn't know this because you think ignorance is a shameful failure -- while I see it as process of improving my product and making a new friend. Anyhow, you don't know shit that I want to know about, and if I did want to know, I'd ask someone who was at college with me and did rise to be a professor and write highly regarded texts, not some stray jerk on a Google group.
> > but above a certain
> > level of complexity of subject material, they are very rare.
> >
> That's funny. When I wanted to study savants, I put together a panel of nine subjects in a couple of hours at the psych facility I set up in Boston for my advertising agency, and delivered my induction talk to them the afternoon of the same day.
> >
> > I don't believe anyone posting here could have mastered engineering by
> > _just_ reading books.
> >
> But Tom didn't say that, you dolt, he said he built circuits as a boy, he was taught the basics by the Air Force, and there were no doubt senior men to observe and learn from. Nor did I say anything at all about "just reading books". You made that up from the whole cloth, Franki-boy. It's another lie you're telling all and sundry.
> >
> > I say that as a person who has corrected probably
> > hundreds of thousands of student mistakes.
> >
> Even students with such low entry scores that they end up at some provincial clown show of a college in the charge of an undistinguished lifelong third-rater like you -- a clown who brags about correcting students! -- don't deserve to have their confidence undermined by a fool like you, Franki-boy..
> >
> > --
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> A Polish peasant dumber than a frostbitten potato.
> >
> Andre Jute
> Genius is a form of successful dilettantism.
> >

After Krygowski's comments about how you cannot learn mechanical engineering out of a book, it is plain that those who can, do, and those who can't teach. Dopy the Pole, would have us believe that he knows what he's doing but in fact, he makes Liebermann look brilliant.

On 11/11/2023 6:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> After Krygowski's comments about how you cannot learn mechanical engineering out of a book, it is plain that those who can, do, and those who can't teach.

And isn't it odd that students who actually attend accredited
engineering schools tend to be among the very highest qualified,
according to things like college entrance exams.

And they tend to go through the trouble of actually attending classes,
working in labs, doing homework, analyzing data and writing reports.
They also ask questions in class, get help from their professors, and
still make mistakes on homework, projects and exams.

But the good ones persevere. They get their degrees and go on to do
engineering professionally. That's not just programming simple motions
within a desktop machine; actual engineering.

Those who want extra credentials and qualify for it often take the
Professional Engineering exam, in order to get their PE license. The
exam consists of eight hours of intense thinking and computation. And
roughly a third of those who qualify to take the PE exam don't pass it
on their first attempt. Most return to try again.

Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
What do they know that Tom does not?

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 11/11/2023 6:40 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>
>> After Krygowski's comments about how you cannot learn mechanical
>> engineering out of a book, it is plain that those who can, do, and those who can't teach.
>
> And isn't it odd that students who actually attend accredited
> engineering schools tend to be among the very highest qualified,
> according to things like college entrance exams.
>
> And they tend to go through the trouble of actually attending classes,
> working in labs, doing homework, analyzing data and writing reports.
> They also ask questions in class, get help from their professors, and
> still make mistakes on homework, projects and exams.
>
> But the good ones persevere. They get their degrees and go on to do
> engineering professionally. That's not just programming simple motions
> within a desktop machine; actual engineering.
>
> Those who want extra credentials and qualify for it often take the
> Professional Engineering exam, in order to get their PE license. The
> exam consists of eight hours of intense thinking and computation. And
> roughly a third of those who qualify to take the PE exam don't pass it
> on their first attempt. Most return to try again.
>
> Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
> out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
> What do they know that Tom does not?
>
To be fair I’d assume some of it would be to get the qualifications which
verify the skills knowledge.

But yes books will only take one so far, there is something about doing it
and learning how it works in practice and equally important when things are
not perfect, or how they are supposed to be which is true of life in
general rather than engineering only.

I’d say for example changing disk pads if you read instructions it often
sounds fairly complicated multiple stage processes, rather than the simple
5 min operation it is.

I occasionally get used by medical bods or others normally law types, as
while they can learn about brain injuries and types meeting someone even
for a short period, gives a glimpse into folks life experiences.

I don’t always say yes, but in general there is coffee and biscuits if not
cake!

Roger Merriman

On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 11:40:50 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:03:18 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 1:13:43 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > On 11/10/2023 5:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:10:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > >> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
> > > >>> That's far different from "considerable engineering."
> > > >>>
> > > >> And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know
> > > for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of
> > > the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was ....
> > >
> > And here Franki-boy cut the rest of my sentence: '... then, and made a fool of yourself for starting a fight with me over it?" That's a fact that other members of the group mentioned to me later was the trigger-point at which realised Krygowski lost the argument because of his irrationality; no wonder he tries to hide it.
> > >
> > > For those unfamiliar with Andre Jute: He first entered this discussion
> > > group during a discussion of bike aerodynamics. He described his bicycle
> > > and his upright posture (sometimes referred to as "sit up and beg") and
> > > claimed it was so aerodynamic he had coasted down a short local hill at
> > > 60 mph.
> > >
> > That's an outright lie. I described using an adjustable stem to put my hands almost down at mudguard level to give me a flat back and suitable aerodynamics. I do know a great deal more than you do about aerodynamics, Franki-boy.
> > >
> > > I called bullshit, and still do.
> > >
> > Of course you do. You made a fool of yourself over it, claiming that I said I rode a bike at 100mph, and didn't have the humility to admit your error when I pointed out that Europeans use kph, kilometres per hour and that my personal ton-up record was only 62mph.
> > >
> > > After much back and forth with me and
> > > other skeptics,
> > >
> > "Back and forth", eh? Is that what you call it. I was hounded by your claque, of whom I've long since disposed, just allowing you to stay as an example of what happens to scum who try interfere in my birthright of free speech.
> > >Jute injected further details into the story of his
> > > purported speed record.
> > >
> > "Purported"? Really? You've had thirteen or fourteen years to prove I told a lie, Franki-boy, and you haven't proven shit. Now shit or get off the pot.
> > >
> > > He said he'd hired a local farmer, had him bolt
> > > a huge piece of plywood across the tail of a truck to form a windbreak,
> > >
> > That's another outright lie and a dumb one at that. Only a moron like you, Franki-boy, would think I'd trust an amateur with my limbs and my life. I hired a farmer to block both ends of a country lane. The guy in the truck was a professional driver. Nor was I towed down the hill, as you claim. I was towed up the hill behind the truck and before the peak the truck pulled off and I shot over the brow.
> > >
> > > then had the farmer drive fast down the hill, using a rope to tow Jute
> > > and his bike up to speed.
> > >
> > This is the same lie again. You're going senile, Franki-boy, one of the symptoms being progressive memory failure.
> > >
> > > That's an odd way to demonstrate aerodynamics of a bike.
> > >
> > That's another lie from Franki-boy's dull imagination. Like Mr Kunich says, Krygowski is so stupid and unobservant that even at this late stage of his life he thinks everyone perforce must have the same interests he has. I have zero interest in bicycle aerodynamics; they're a dead end for compulsive-obsessive personalities without lives. (If you don't know that I spent the early part of my life racing everything that would take an internal combustion engine, my interest in aerodynamics start at 115mph, the minimum point where they start to impact modern racing cars more than fractionally, not at my personal ton-up best speed in kilomers on a bike.)
> > >
> > >And I'll let
> > > the readers judge whether it's likely that story is true.
> > >
> > Oh dear! You think I care shit what anyone in your much reduced claque thinks? After I spent years demonstrating my public contempt for you and anyone who agrees with you? For the sake of shortstopping pointless correspondence, it is my opinion that any cyclist who doubts that another cyclist can go 62mph and change -- is a moron just like Franki-boy. a wishful thinker and a wanker, again just like Franki-boy.
> > >
> > > > Krygowski has a need to believe that NO ONE could learn anything
> > > without the help of him.
> > >
> > I just spent a frustrating five minutes trying to think of anything Franki-boy could help me learn, and that includes the entire field of engineering. Zero result. Besides being an stubbornly ignorant fool, Krygowski is so immoral that he'd probably tell me something wrong on purpose in the hope that I would injure myself.
> > >
> > > Nope. I've known hundreds of students who were well educated by other
> > > professors.
> > >
> > "Other professors". You lie by implication, Franki-boy: you weren't a "professor", you were a jumped-up welding instructor.
> > >
> > >Yes, there are some true autodidacts,
> > >
> > I didn't say anything about being an autodidact. I had wonderful teachers who inculcated critical thinking. Furthermore, unlike little people like you, I feel no pain admitting ignorance in any subject, or even holes in subjects on which I'm considered a leading authority. Consequently, I seek out the advice of experts all the time, and work happily beside them. But you wouldn't know this because you think ignorance is a shameful failure -- while I see it as process of improving my product and making a new friend. Anyhow, you don't know shit that I want to know about, and if I did want to know, I'd ask someone who was at college with me and did rise to be a professor and write highly regarded texts, not some stray jerk on a Google group..
> > > but above a certain
> > > level of complexity of subject material, they are very rare.
> > >
> > That's funny. When I wanted to study savants, I put together a panel of nine subjects in a couple of hours at the psych facility I set up in Boston for my advertising agency, and delivered my induction talk to them the afternoon of the same day.
> > >
> > > I don't believe anyone posting here could have mastered engineering by
> > > _just_ reading books.
> > >
> > But Tom didn't say that, you dolt, he said he built circuits as a boy, he was taught the basics by the Air Force, and there were no doubt senior men to observe and learn from. Nor did I say anything at all about "just reading books". You made that up from the whole cloth, Franki-boy. It's another lie you're telling all and sundry.
> > >
> > > I say that as a person who has corrected probably
> > > hundreds of thousands of student mistakes.
> > >
> > Even students with such low entry scores that they end up at some provincial clown show of a college in the charge of an undistinguished lifelong third-rater like you -- a clown who brags about correcting students! -- don't deserve to have their confidence undermined by a fool like you, Franki-boy.
> > >
> > > --
> > > - Frank Krygowski
> > >
> > A Polish peasant dumber than a frostbitten potato.
> > >
> > Andre Jute
> > Genius is a form of successful dilettantism.
> > >
> After Krygowski's comments about how you cannot learn mechanical engineering out of a book, it is plain that those who can, do, and those who can't teach. Dopy the Pole, would have us believe that he knows what he's doing but in fact, he makes Liebermann look brilliant.
>
Poor Franki-boy has a down on books because he hasn't written any. The reason he was never promoted, never made professor, did undergraduate dog work all his life, was never in a position to choose his own students, the people who will be the leaders of the profession, besides his general obnoxiousness, is that Franki-boy had no worthwhile publications, in a profession where publication equals prestige and promotion. -- AJ
>

On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:07:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
>out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
>What do they know that Tom does not?

When I attended college (1965 to 1971), all the colleges provided
lectures and book learning. Not many provided labs and practical
experience. I attended one of each. I entered UCLA and discovered I
would not have any classes in electronics until the 4th (last) year. I
quickly switched to Cal Poly Pomona, which replaced the general
education lecture classes, with labs and practical projects. Although
not accredited, Cal Poly Pomona graduates were in high demand[1].

Note that my web page and domain are "Learn By Destroying". That
means one does not really understand how something works unless they
have first destroyed it and then learned what it takes to fix it.

My earlier rant on the topic:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/zu2_9VgqNNA/m/Kojl6YJPAAAJ>

[1] The late 1960's, the US was actively involved in the Vietnam war.
Prospective employers were not hiring recent college graduates who
might be in danger of being drafted into the military. Cal Poly
Pomona was somewhat of an exception, as many prospective employers
were willing to "do what was necessary" in order to obtain a
deferrment for the newly hired engineer.

06/07/2022
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/QNPNSofg064/m/Xaamy15iBQAJ>
"I would warrant that I've read more than 20 times more books than you
have. I read out three public libraries, the military library and all
of the books I used to gain the knowledge to become an engineer."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 15:40:48 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>After Krygowski's comments about how you cannot learn mechanical engineering out of a book, it is plain that those who can, do, and those who can't teach. Dopy the Pole, would have us believe that he knows what he's doing but in fact, he makes Liebermann look brilliant.

As I've mentioned 1/2 dozen times previously, claiming that someone is
somehow technically inadequate does nothing to demonstrate your
knowledge or abilities. Comparing yourself to someone else does
nothing to demonstrate your competence. Frank and I could be the
worlds best or the worlds worst engineers and you will remain a high
school dropout and a very bad liar.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558