On 11/12/2023 1:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:07:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
>> out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
>> What do they know that Tom does not?
>
> When I attended college (1965 to 1971), all the colleges provided
> lectures and book learning. Not many provided labs and practical
> experience. I attended one of each. I entered UCLA and discovered I
> would not have any classes in electronics until the 4th (last) year. I
> quickly switched to Cal Poly Pomona, which replaced the general
> education lecture classes, with labs and practical projects. Although
> not accredited, Cal Poly Pomona graduates were in high demand[1].

It's difficult for me to understand how a school could possibly cram all
technical courses into one year. Our program's prerequisite structure
was diagrammed by a pretty complex flowchart. Students were expected to
keep their own copy of the flowchart and check off courses as they
completed them. Another copy was kept in their advising folder in our
offices. Taking a course without necessary prerequisites typically
triggered bad news for the student, even if he passed.

Going by memory, a student needed to take our walk-in-the-door
"Introduction" class before taking Mechanics I. Mechanics I was a
prerequisite to Mechanics II. That (and some calculus course, IIRC) was
a prerequisite to Fluid Mechanics; which was a prerequisite to Fluid
Power; which was a prerequisite to Machine Systems; which was a
prerequisite to Robotics Tech.

And that's just one chain through the flowchart. Design of Machine
Elements I & II were also prerequisites to Machine Systems, as were two
Electricity/electronics courses and Kinematics and Mechanisms. Heat
Transfer and Thermodynamics courses were not in the chain leading to
Robotics, but they were required and had their own sets of
prerequisites. And that's not the entire curriculum.

That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/12/2023 1:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:07:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
> >> out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
> >> What do they know that Tom does not?
> >
> > When I attended college (1965 to 1971), all the colleges provided
> > lectures and book learning. Not many provided labs and practical
> > experience. I attended one of each. I entered UCLA and discovered I
> > would not have any classes in electronics until the 4th (last) year. I
> > quickly switched to Cal Poly Pomona, which replaced the general
> > education lecture classes, with labs and practical projects. Although
> > not accredited, Cal Poly Pomona graduates were in high demand[1].
>
>It's difficult for me to understand how a school could possibly cram all
>technical courses into one year.

UCLA did NOT cram all the technical courses in one year. As you
mentioned, there were the usual hard science classes, such as physics,
chemistry, astronomy, geology, material science, math, thermodynamics,
computers, etc. What was lacking was anything directly related to
electronics. The closest approximation was physics, where we learned
the Ebers-Moll bipolar junction xsistor model using electrons and
holes (the lack of electrons).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bipolar_junction_transistor#Ebers%E2%80%93Moll_model>
There was no associated lab and was all theory.

It's not too difficult to understand why this happened. At the time,
UCLA was mostly interested in producing the next generation of
theoretical physicists which meant that students were expected to
continue their education beyond the bachelors degree and into graduate
studies (masters and PHD degrees). When I asked too many questions
about the curriculum, my faculty advisor suggested that a trade school
might me more appropriate. Since attending a trade school was NOT
sufficient for a student deferment, this was not a suitable
alternative. At the time (late 1960's), I don't recall if Cal Poly
had a graduate studies program. I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
They eventually obtained accreditation and established various
graduate studies programs:
<https://www.cpp.edu/ceis/edleadership/doctoral-program/about-the-program.shtml>

>Our program's prerequisite structure
>was diagrammed by a pretty complex flowchart. Students were expected to
>keep their own copy of the flowchart and check off courses as they
>completed them. Another copy was kept in their advising folder in our
>offices. Taking a course without necessary prerequisites typically
>triggered bad news for the student, even if he passed.

At the time (late 1960's), the objective was to stay in college to
maintain the academic deferment for as long as possible. It was
possible to graduate early by arranging a waver or challenging a class
based on experience, but no sane student did that.

The difficult parts were obtaining a seat in a required class and
dealing with the semester to quarter system conversions. Classes also
tended to be oversubscribed. There were various schemes for staying
in school, but as you mention, any variation from the straight and
narrow path could precipitate being drafted into the army.

>Going by memory, a student needed to take our walk-in-the-door
>"Introduction" class before taking Mechanics I. Mechanics I was a
>prerequisite to Mechanics II. That (and some calculus course, IIRC) was
>a prerequisite to Fluid Mechanics; which was a prerequisite to Fluid
>Power; which was a prerequisite to Machine Systems; which was a
>prerequisite to Robotics Tech.

If you roll back the clock to what was fashionable during the 1960's,
the curriculum was quite different. Also, I was following the
electrical and electronic curriculum, not mechanical curriculum.

>And that's just one chain through the flowchart. Design of Machine
>Elements I & II were also prerequisites to Machine Systems, as were two
>Electricity/electronics courses and Kinematics and Mechanisms. Heat
>Transfer and Thermodynamics courses were not in the chain leading to
>Robotics, but they were required and had their own sets of
>prerequisites. And that's not the entire curriculum.
>
>That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year.

As I mentioned, it wasn't. Incidentally, we didn't have a flow chart.
We had a checklist that tended to change every semester. It wasn't a
moving target, but it was close. Upon applying for graduation, I
discovered that I had "forgotten" to take English literature. After
some negotiations, I discovered that it was mandatory. So, in my
senior (last) year in college, I was sentenced to 15 weeks of culture
shock.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/12/2023 1:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:07:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
> >> out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
> >> What do they know that Tom does not?
> >
> > When I attended college (1965 to 1971), all the colleges provided
> > lectures and book learning. Not many provided labs and practical
> > experience. I attended one of each. I entered UCLA and discovered I
> > would not have any classes in electronics until the 4th (last) year. I
> > quickly switched to Cal Poly Pomona, which replaced the general
> > education lecture classes, with labs and practical projects. Although
> > not accredited, Cal Poly Pomona graduates were in high demand[1].
>
>It's difficult for me to understand how a school could possibly cram all
>technical courses into one year. Our program's prerequisite structure
>was diagrammed by a pretty complex flowchart. Students were expected to
>keep their own copy of the flowchart and check off courses as they
>completed them. Another copy was kept in their advising folder in our
>offices. Taking a course without necessary prerequisites typically
>triggered bad news for the student, even if he passed.
>
>Going by memory, a student needed to take our walk-in-the-door
>"Introduction" class before taking Mechanics I. Mechanics I was a
>prerequisite to Mechanics II. That (and some calculus course, IIRC) was
>a prerequisite to Fluid Mechanics; which was a prerequisite to Fluid
>Power; which was a prerequisite to Machine Systems; which was a
>prerequisite to Robotics Tech.
>
>And that's just one chain through the flowchart. Design of Machine
>Elements I & II were also prerequisites to Machine Systems, as were two
>Electricity/electronics courses and Kinematics and Mechanisms. Heat
>Transfer and Thermodynamics courses were not in the chain leading to
>Robotics, but they were required and had their own sets of
>prerequisites. And that's not the entire curriculum.
>
>That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year.

If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
more $$$$.

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 1:10:35 PM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 11/12/2023 1:21 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > On Sat, 11 Nov 2023 22:07:28 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >> Why do so many people go to all that trouble? Why don't they just "read
> > >> out" a library like Tom claims he has, then land good engineering jobs?
> > >> What do they know that Tom does not?
> > >
> > > When I attended college (1965 to 1971), all the colleges provided
> > > lectures and book learning. Not many provided labs and practical
> > > experience. I attended one of each. I entered UCLA and discovered I
> > > would not have any classes in electronics until the 4th (last) year. I
> > > quickly switched to Cal Poly Pomona, which replaced the general
> > > education lecture classes, with labs and practical projects. Although
> > > not accredited, Cal Poly Pomona graduates were in high demand[1].
> >
> >It's difficult for me to understand how a school could possibly cram all
> >technical courses into one year. Our program's prerequisite structure
> >was diagrammed by a pretty complex flowchart. Students were expected to
> >keep their own copy of the flowchart and check off courses as they
> >completed them. Another copy was kept in their advising folder in our
> >offices. Taking a course without necessary prerequisites typically
> >triggered bad news for the student, even if he passed.
> >
> >Going by memory, a student needed to take our walk-in-the-door
> >"Introduction" class before taking Mechanics I. Mechanics I was a
> >prerequisite to Mechanics II. That (and some calculus course, IIRC) was
> >a prerequisite to Fluid Mechanics; which was a prerequisite to Fluid
> >Power; which was a prerequisite to Machine Systems; which was a
> >prerequisite to Robotics Tech.
> >
> >And that's just one chain through the flowchart. Design of Machine
> >Elements I & II were also prerequisites to Machine Systems, as were two
> >Electricity/electronics courses and Kinematics and Mechanisms. Heat
> >Transfer and Thermodynamics courses were not in the chain leading to
> >Robotics, but they were required and had their own sets of
> >prerequisites. And that's not the entire curriculum.
> >
> >That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year..
> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> more $$$$.
>
Your pal Franki-boy is the kewpie-doll, front-of-house spokesperson for C. Northcote Parkinson's only too-true observation truism that for incompetents work expands to fill the time available. -- AJ
>

On 11/12/2023 8:52 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> The difficult parts were obtaining a seat in a required class and
> dealing with the semester to quarter system conversions.

That bit was interesting to me, because one of the more difficult parts
of my teaching career was guiding the program and students through a
quarter to semester conversion. It was an immense amount of work with no
discernible benefit and many obvious detriments.

Quarters? Semesters? Seems like yet another example of "What's in fashion?"

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, November 12, 2023 at 4:50:56 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 11:40:50 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 3:03:18 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > On Saturday, November 11, 2023 at 1:13:43 AM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > On 11/10/2023 5:29 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, November 10, 2023 at 2:10:32 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > > > >> On Thursday, November 9, 2023 at 4:40:49 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> You dabbled in a few projects or puttered in a workshop.
> > > > >>> That's far different from "considerable engineering."
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> And you know that how, Franki-boy? Perhaps like you claimed to know
> > > > for certain that I couldn't possibly get up to 100kph/60mph on any of
> > > > the hills in my locality, before you even knew what my locality was ...
> > > >
> > > And here Franki-boy cut the rest of my sentence: '... then, and made a fool of yourself for starting a fight with me over it?" That's a fact that other members of the group mentioned to me later was the trigger-point at which realised Krygowski lost the argument because of his irrationality; no wonder he tries to hide it.
> > > >
> > > > For those unfamiliar with Andre Jute: He first entered this discussion
> > > > group during a discussion of bike aerodynamics. He described his bicycle
> > > > and his upright posture (sometimes referred to as "sit up and beg") and
> > > > claimed it was so aerodynamic he had coasted down a short local hill at
> > > > 60 mph.
> > > >
> > > That's an outright lie. I described using an adjustable stem to put my hands almost down at mudguard level to give me a flat back and suitable aerodynamics. I do know a great deal more than you do about aerodynamics, Franki-boy.
> > > >
> > > > I called bullshit, and still do.
> > > >
> > > Of course you do. You made a fool of yourself over it, claiming that I said I rode a bike at 100mph, and didn't have the humility to admit your error when I pointed out that Europeans use kph, kilometres per hour and that my personal ton-up record was only 62mph.
> > > >
> > > > After much back and forth with me and
> > > > other skeptics,
> > > >
> > > "Back and forth", eh? Is that what you call it. I was hounded by your claque, of whom I've long since disposed, just allowing you to stay as an example of what happens to scum who try interfere in my birthright of free speech.
> > > >Jute injected further details into the story of his
> > > > purported speed record.
> > > >
> > > "Purported"? Really? You've had thirteen or fourteen years to prove I told a lie, Franki-boy, and you haven't proven shit. Now shit or get off the pot.
> > > >
> > > > He said he'd hired a local farmer, had him bolt
> > > > a huge piece of plywood across the tail of a truck to form a windbreak,
> > > >
> > > That's another outright lie and a dumb one at that. Only a moron like you, Franki-boy, would think I'd trust an amateur with my limbs and my life. I hired a farmer to block both ends of a country lane. The guy in the truck was a professional driver. Nor was I towed down the hill, as you claim. I was towed up the hill behind the truck and before the peak the truck pulled off and I shot over the brow.
> > > >
> > > > then had the farmer drive fast down the hill, using a rope to tow Jute
> > > > and his bike up to speed.
> > > >
> > > This is the same lie again. You're going senile, Franki-boy, one of the symptoms being progressive memory failure.
> > > >
> > > > That's an odd way to demonstrate aerodynamics of a bike.
> > > >
> > > That's another lie from Franki-boy's dull imagination. Like Mr Kunich says, Krygowski is so stupid and unobservant that even at this late stage of his life he thinks everyone perforce must have the same interests he has.. I have zero interest in bicycle aerodynamics; they're a dead end for compulsive-obsessive personalities without lives. (If you don't know that I spent the early part of my life racing everything that would take an internal combustion engine, my interest in aerodynamics start at 115mph, the minimum point where they start to impact modern racing cars more than fractionally, not at my personal ton-up best speed in kilomers on a bike.)
> > > >
> > > >And I'll let
> > > > the readers judge whether it's likely that story is true.
> > > >
> > > Oh dear! You think I care shit what anyone in your much reduced claque thinks? After I spent years demonstrating my public contempt for you and anyone who agrees with you? For the sake of shortstopping pointless correspondence, it is my opinion that any cyclist who doubts that another cyclist can go 62mph and change -- is a moron just like Franki-boy. a wishful thinker and a wanker, again just like Franki-boy.
> > > >
> > > > > Krygowski has a need to believe that NO ONE could learn anything
> > > > without the help of him.
> > > >
> > > I just spent a frustrating five minutes trying to think of anything Franki-boy could help me learn, and that includes the entire field of engineering. Zero result. Besides being an stubbornly ignorant fool, Krygowski is so immoral that he'd probably tell me something wrong on purpose in the hope that I would injure myself.
> > > >
> > > > Nope. I've known hundreds of students who were well educated by other
> > > > professors.
> > > >
> > > "Other professors". You lie by implication, Franki-boy: you weren't a "professor", you were a jumped-up welding instructor.
> > > >
> > > >Yes, there are some true autodidacts,
> > > >
> > > I didn't say anything about being an autodidact. I had wonderful teachers who inculcated critical thinking. Furthermore, unlike little people like you, I feel no pain admitting ignorance in any subject, or even holes in subjects on which I'm considered a leading authority. Consequently, I seek out the advice of experts all the time, and work happily beside them. But you wouldn't know this because you think ignorance is a shameful failure -- while I see it as process of improving my product and making a new friend. Anyhow, you don't know shit that I want to know about, and if I did want to know, I'd ask someone who was at college with me and did rise to be a professor and write highly regarded texts, not some stray jerk on a Google group.
> > > > but above a certain
> > > > level of complexity of subject material, they are very rare.
> > > >
> > > That's funny. When I wanted to study savants, I put together a panel of nine subjects in a couple of hours at the psych facility I set up in Boston for my advertising agency, and delivered my induction talk to them the afternoon of the same day.
> > > >
> > > > I don't believe anyone posting here could have mastered engineering by
> > > > _just_ reading books.
> > > >
> > > But Tom didn't say that, you dolt, he said he built circuits as a boy, he was taught the basics by the Air Force, and there were no doubt senior men to observe and learn from. Nor did I say anything at all about "just reading books". You made that up from the whole cloth, Franki-boy. It's another lie you're telling all and sundry.
> > > >
> > > > I say that as a person who has corrected probably
> > > > hundreds of thousands of student mistakes.
> > > >
> > > Even students with such low entry scores that they end up at some provincial clown show of a college in the charge of an undistinguished lifelong third-rater like you -- a clown who brags about correcting students! -- don't deserve to have their confidence undermined by a fool like you, Franki-boy.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > - Frank Krygowski
> > > >
> > > A Polish peasant dumber than a frostbitten potato.
> > > >
> > > Andre Jute
> > > Genius is a form of successful dilettantism.
> > > >
> > After Krygowski's comments about how you cannot learn mechanical engineering out of a book, it is plain that those who can, do, and those who can't teach. Dopy the Pole, would have us believe that he knows what he's doing but in fact, he makes Liebermann look brilliant.
> >
> Poor Franki-boy has a down on books because he hasn't written any. The reason he was never promoted, never made professor, did undergraduate dog work all his life, was never in a position to choose his own students, the people who will be the leaders of the profession, besides his general obnoxiousness, is that Franki-boy had no worthwhile publications, in a profession where publication equals prestige and promotion. -- AJ
> >
Frank is the definition of a nobody. The fact that he is so egotistical despite never having accomplished one thing in his entire life says a lot about him. I have a step-son-in-law that teaches math and the difference between him and Frank is night and day.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year.
>
>If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
>studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
>more $$$$.

Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
for me studying for teachers preparation.

At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
economics, etc. The list of such classes has been greatly expanded in
the past 60 years. With the exception of English literature, I rather
enjoyed taking these classes, mostly because that's where I the women
were found. While at Cal Poly, I dated all the women engineering
students. All five of them.

One very useful class was engineering economics. I took this class
while at San Fernando Valley State college. The class taught me how
to assign financial consideration to engineering calculations. I
still occasionally refer to the text book.

Another useful class was tractor driving and later tractor mechanics.
In order to maintain my deferment, I need to take 15 quarter units per
quarter. It was often difficult to obtain a seat in the more popular
classes. One year, I found myself short a few units with nothing
available in engineering. Since Cal Poly Pomona was originally an
agricultural college, they still taught agricultural topics. So, I
filled in the missing units with an elective class in tractor driving
and later in tractor mechanics. I fit in nicely with the agricultural
business management students wearing suits and carrying brief cases
and the engineering students wearing jeans and cowboy boots.

Race and gender studies would probably not have worked because of the
large percentage of foreign students in engineering, mostly from Iraq.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:10:26 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>Frank is the definition of a nobody.

Have you ever considered the possibility that Frank has no interest in
becoming a famous person or media sensation? There's a name for
people who seek attention, but I'll pretend I forgot what it's called.
Those who seek importance is a sure sign of their lack of importance.
Delusions of Grandeur
<https://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/delusions-grandeur>
"It’s when you believe that you have more power, wealth, smarts, or
other grand traits than is true."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:48:35 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year.
>>
>>If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
>>studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
>>more $$$$.
>
>Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
>war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
>When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
>deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
>of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
>college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
>for me studying for teachers preparation.
>
>At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
>However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
>classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
>economics, etc. The list of such classes has been greatly expanded in
>the past 60 years. With the exception of English literature, I rather
>enjoyed taking these classes, mostly because that's where I the women
>were found. While at Cal Poly, I dated all the women engineering
>students. All five of them.
>
>One very useful class was engineering economics. I took this class
>while at San Fernando Valley State college. The class taught me how
>to assign financial consideration to engineering calculations. I
>still occasionally refer to the text book.
>
>Another useful class was tractor driving and later tractor mechanics.
>In order to maintain my deferment, I need to take 15 quarter units per
>quarter. It was often difficult to obtain a seat in the more popular
>classes. One year, I found myself short a few units with nothing
>available in engineering. Since Cal Poly Pomona was originally an
>agricultural college, they still taught agricultural topics. So, I
>filled in the missing units with an elective class in tractor driving
>and later in tractor mechanics. I fit in nicely with the agricultural
>business management students wearing suits and carrying brief cases
>and the engineering students wearing jeans and cowboy boots.
>
>Race and gender studies would probably not have worked because of the
>large percentage of foreign students in engineering, mostly from Iraq.

One of the several reasons I dropped out of college was the mandatory
classes that had nothing to do with what I wanted to study. I don't
like paying for things I have no use for.

I bounced in and out of college for a couple of years, earning money
for a few months then wasting it on mandatory college courses I didn't
want.

Out of money the last time, I went looking for a part time job and by
chance, I found something I thought I could build into a career. After
that I scoffed at the degree and only took the college and tech
courses I wanted.

On Monday, November 13, 2023 at 9:29:12 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:48:35 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <je...@cruzio.com>
> wrote:
> >On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> ><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >><frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one year.
> >>
> >>If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> >>studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> >>more $$$$.
> >
> >Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> >war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> >When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> >deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> >of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> >college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> >for me studying for teachers preparation.
> >
> >At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
> >However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> >classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> >economics, etc. The list of such classes has been greatly expanded in
> >the past 60 years. With the exception of English literature, I rather
> >enjoyed taking these classes, mostly because that's where I the women
> >were found. While at Cal Poly, I dated all the women engineering
> >students. All five of them.
> >
> >One very useful class was engineering economics. I took this class
> >while at San Fernando Valley State college. The class taught me how
> >to assign financial consideration to engineering calculations. I
> >still occasionally refer to the text book.
> >
> >Another useful class was tractor driving and later tractor mechanics.
> >In order to maintain my deferment, I need to take 15 quarter units per
> >quarter. It was often difficult to obtain a seat in the more popular
> >classes. One year, I found myself short a few units with nothing
> >available in engineering. Since Cal Poly Pomona was originally an
> >agricultural college, they still taught agricultural topics. So, I
> >filled in the missing units with an elective class in tractor driving
> >and later in tractor mechanics. I fit in nicely with the agricultural
> >business management students wearing suits and carrying brief cases
> >and the engineering students wearing jeans and cowboy boots.
> >
> >Race and gender studies would probably not have worked because of the
> >large percentage of foreign students in engineering, mostly from Iraq.
> One of the several reasons I dropped out of college was the mandatory
> classes that had nothing to do with what I wanted to study. I don't
> like paying for things I have no use for.
>
> I bounced in and out of college for a couple of years, earning money
> for a few months then wasting it on mandatory college courses I didn't
> want.
>
> Out of money the last time, I went looking for a part time job and by
> chance, I found something I thought I could build into a career. After
> that I scoffed at the degree and only took the college and tech
> courses I wanted.
There you have it. Liebermann was never an engineer because he never wanted to be an engineer - he was just avoiding the draft like all of the little cowards.

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:33:26 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>There you have it. Liebermann was never an engineer because he never wanted to be an engineer - he was just avoiding the draft like all of the little cowards.

Tom: Why do you find it necessary to lie about your wealth, education
and employment experience while I do not need to lie? That seems
rather odd. Could it be that your past is somewhat questionable? I
can provide numerous examples from your RBT postings where you are
obviously lying.

Were you looking in a mirror when you wrote this in RBT? Your comment
is very prophetic.
09/05/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/yaIqS-ZrEkQ/m/pbRqLebeAgAJ>
"When you have nothing else to show for yourself you can only make the
achievements of others look less than yours."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:58:02 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 09:33:26 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>There you have it. Liebermann was never an engineer because he never wanted to be an engineer - he was just avoiding the draft like all of the little cowards.
>
>Tom: Why do you find it necessary to lie about your wealth, education
>and employment experience while I do not need to lie? That seems
>rather odd. Could it be that your past is somewhat questionable? I
>can provide numerous examples from your RBT postings where you are
>obviously lying.
>
>Were you looking in a mirror when you wrote this in RBT? Your comment
>is very prophetic.
>09/05/2023
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/yaIqS-ZrEkQ/m/pbRqLebeAgAJ>
>"When you have nothing else to show for yourself you can only make the
>achievements of others look less than yours."

Not from a book but from the Internet:
https://rec.bicycles.tech.narkive.com/oKoXRwKO/tom-kunich-is-a-ass

Oh, you mean this guy:
Thomas H Kunich, Born: Oct 1944
3539 Monterey Blvd
San Leandro CA94578
510) 351-3807

I thought we had gotten over him, now that we have other contributors
who are equally rude and obnoxious, always carping while offering no
useful information.

Jobst Brandt

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
year.
>>
>> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
>> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
>> more $$$$.
>
> Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> for me studying for teachers preparation.
>
> At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
> However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> economics, etc.

There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.

Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.

Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
interests.

As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.

Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
what goes on in college.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 20:18:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> > <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
>year.
> >>
> >> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> >> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> >> more $$$$.
> >
> > Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> > war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> > When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> > deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> > of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> > college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> > for me studying for teachers preparation.
> >
> > At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
> > However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> > classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> > economics, etc.
>
>There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
>courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
>studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.
>
>Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
>that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
>that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
>curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.
>
>Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
>economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
>minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
>latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
>History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
>all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
>interests.
>
>As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
>some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.

They also want to extract as much $$$ from the student as possible.

>Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
>people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
>what goes on in college.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:28:09 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 20:18:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> > > <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
> >year.
> > >>
> > >> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> > >> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> > >> more $$$$.
> > >
> > > Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> > > war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> > > When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> > > deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> > > of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> > > college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> > > for me studying for teachers preparation.
> > >
> > > At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
> > > However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> > > classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> > > economics, etc.
> >
> >There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
> >courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
> >studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.
> >
> >Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
> >that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
> >that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
> >curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.
> >
> >Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
> >economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
> >minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
> >latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
> >History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
> >all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
> >interests.
> >
> >As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
> >some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.
> They also want to extract as much $$$ from the student as possible.
> >Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
> >people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
> >what goes on in college.

Well, now that really takes the cake - the man who took a hundred years in engineering school to earn a BA EE and was such an obnoxious ass that he couldn't get a job after his first one out of school when no one knew him, thinks that HE is cultured! Imagine, all of that time in school and having to work as a technician for himself rather than for a company that would have paid him ten times as much, thinks of himself as cultured!

They have all of those miscellaneous classes in college because 80% of college graduates never work ONE DAY in their majors. So they have to have something to fall back on. You know, between jobs I did sort of work as a technician. Me and another guy formed a company installing telephone systems in skyscrapers and made a LOT of money. But I preferred engineering so much that I took a job designing and programming medical instruments making less money. And during the Vietnam Airlift I felt it my civic duty to work recovery on commercial aircraft and get our boys out of that hell hole we should NEVER have been involved in.

Here is where that mindless Liebermann tells us that Eisenhower got us into Vietnam because he loves the lies. Eisenhower provided ONLY military advisers. Kennedy put American soldiers on the ground.

On Tue, 14 Nov 2023 07:53:45 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:28:09?AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 20:18:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>> >On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>> > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
>> > > <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> > >>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
>> >year.
>> > >>
>> > >> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
>> > >> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
>> > >> more $$$$.
>> > >
>> > > Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
>> > > war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
>> > > When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
>> > > deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
>> > > of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
>> > > college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
>> > > for me studying for teachers preparation.
>> > >
>> > > At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
>> > > However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
>> > > classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
>> > > economics, etc.
>> >
>> >There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
>> >courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
>> >studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.
>> >
>> >Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
>> >that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
>> >that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
>> >curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.
>> >
>> >Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
>> >economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
>> >minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
>> >latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
>> >History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
>> >all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
>> >interests.
>> >
>> >As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
>> >some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.
>> They also want to extract as much $$$ from the student as possible.
>> >Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
>> >people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
>> >what goes on in college.
>
>Well, now that really takes the cake - the man who took a hundred years in engineering school to earn a BA EE and was such an obnoxious ass that he couldn't get a job after his first one out of school when no one knew him, thinks that HE is cultured! Imagine, all of that time in school and having to work as a technician for himself rather than for a company that would have paid him ten times as much, thinks of himself as cultured!
>
>They have all of those miscellaneous classes in college because 80% of college graduates never work ONE DAY in their majors. So they have to have something to fall back on. You know, between jobs I did sort of work as a technician. Me and another guy formed a company installing telephone systems in skyscrapers and made a LOT of money. But I preferred engineering so much that I took a job designing and programming medical instruments making less money. And during the Vietnam Airlift I felt it my civic duty to work recovery on commercial aircraft and get our boys out of that hell hole we should NEVER have been involved in.
>
>Here is where that mindless Liebermann tells us that Eisenhower got rus into Vietnam because he loves the lies. Eisenhower provided ONLY military advisers. Kennedy put American soldiers on the ground.

But Timmy, The U.S. has been at war with someone for more then 90% of
the countries history. Nearly always in wars that the U.S. started.

They even went to war in Honduras, to protect the Standard Fruit
Company's banana business, in 1903, 1907, 1911, 1912, 1919, 1924 and
1925.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 3:53:47 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:28:09 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 20:18:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >
> > >On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> > > > <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
> > >year.
> > > >>
> > > >> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> > > >> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> > > >> more $$$$.
> > > >
> > > > Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> > > > war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> > > > When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> > > > deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> > > > of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> > > > college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> > > > for me studying for teachers preparation.
> > > >
> > > > At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
> > > > However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> > > > classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> > > > economics, etc.
> > >
> > >There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
> > >courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
> > >studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.
> > >
> > >Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
> > >that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
> > >that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
> > >curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.
> > >
> > >Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
> > >economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
> > >minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
> > >latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
> > >History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
> > >all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
> > >interests.
> > >
> > >As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
> > >some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.
> > They also want to extract as much $$$ from the student as possible.
> > >Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
> > >people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
> > >what goes on in college.
> Well, now that really takes the cake - the man who took a hundred years in engineering school to earn a BA EE and was such an obnoxious ass that he couldn't get a job after his first one out of school when no one knew him, thinks that HE is cultured! Imagine, all of that time in school and having to work as a technician for himself rather than for a company that would have paid him ten times as much, thinks of himself as cultured!
>
> They have all of those miscellaneous classes in college because 80% of college graduates never work ONE DAY in their majors. So they have to have something to fall back on. You know, between jobs I did sort of work as a technician. Me and another guy formed a company installing telephone systems in skyscrapers and made a LOT of money. But I preferred engineering so much that I took a job designing and programming medical instruments making less money. And during the Vietnam Airlift I felt it my civic duty to work recovery on commercial aircraft and get our boys out of that hell hole we should NEVER have been involved in.
>
> Here is where that mindless Liebermann tells us that Eisenhower got us into Vietnam because he loves the lies. Eisenhower provided ONLY military advisers. Kennedy put American soldiers on the ground.
>
Krygowski may have had some "culture" compulsorily stuffed down his gullet but that doesn't mean he digested it rather than merely ingesting it. The evidence is that Franki-boy is a non-kulturny Polish peasant with as much relation to culture as to the King of England, a manifest impossibility. I do in fact know many cultured engineers (being cultured is axiomatic among my friends) but those who spent even a few minutes on this forum were pretty dismissive of Krygo. -- AJ

On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 2:32:49 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 3:53:47 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:28:09 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 20:18:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> > > > > <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > > >>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
> > > >year.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> > > > >> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> > > > >> more $$$$.
> > > > >
> > > > > Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> > > > > war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> > > > > When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> > > > > deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> > > > > of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> > > > > college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> > > > > for me studying for teachers preparation.
> > > > >
> > > > > At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies".
> > > > > However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> > > > > classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> > > > > economics, etc.
> > > >
> > > >There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
> > > >courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
> > > >studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.
> > > >
> > > >Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
> > > >that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
> > > >that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
> > > >curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.
> > > >
> > > >Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
> > > >economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
> > > >minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
> > > >latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
> > > >History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
> > > >all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
> > > >interests.
> > > >
> > > >As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
> > > >some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.
> > > They also want to extract as much $$$ from the student as possible.
> > > >Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
> > > >people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
> > > >what goes on in college.
> > Well, now that really takes the cake - the man who took a hundred years in engineering school to earn a BA EE and was such an obnoxious ass that he couldn't get a job after his first one out of school when no one knew him, thinks that HE is cultured! Imagine, all of that time in school and having to work as a technician for himself rather than for a company that would have paid him ten times as much, thinks of himself as cultured!
> >
> > They have all of those miscellaneous classes in college because 80% of college graduates never work ONE DAY in their majors. So they have to have something to fall back on. You know, between jobs I did sort of work as a technician. Me and another guy formed a company installing telephone systems in skyscrapers and made a LOT of money. But I preferred engineering so much that I took a job designing and programming medical instruments making less money. And during the Vietnam Airlift I felt it my civic duty to work recovery on commercial aircraft and get our boys out of that hell hole we should NEVER have been involved in.
> >
> > Here is where that mindless Liebermann tells us that Eisenhower got us into Vietnam because he loves the lies. Eisenhower provided ONLY military advisers. Kennedy put American soldiers on the ground.
> >
> Krygowski may have had some "culture" compulsorily stuffed down his gullet but that doesn't mean he digested it rather than merely ingesting it. The evidence is that Franki-boy is a non-kulturny Polish peasant with as much relation to culture as to the King of England, a manifest impossibility. I do in fact know many cultured engineers (being cultured is axiomatic among my friends) but those who spent even a few minutes on this forum were pretty dismissive of Krygo. -- AJ

This is why I wrote Krygowski off after returning from my concussion and reading his preposterous comments. Like him claiming to have disagreed with Jobst Brandt in public! I call them the Stupid 4 for a reason. They all know nothing and actually believe that they can invent history merely by wishing it so.

On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 4:21:19 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 2:32:49 AM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 3:53:47 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 1:28:09 AM UTC-8, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 20:18:38 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >On 11/13/2023 11:48 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > > > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 08:10:30 -0500, Catrike Rider
> > > > > > <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >> On Sun, 12 Nov 2023 19:31:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > > > >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > > > > >>> That complex structure could never have been arranged to fit in one
> > > > >year.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> If you teach it slow enough, and add some mandatory race and gender
> > > > > >> studies classes, you could stretch it out to a decade and collect even
> > > > > >> more $$$$.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Extending the time in college was only a problem during the Vietnam
> > > > > > war era, when conscription was in full force, Dec 1969 -> Jan 1973.
> > > > > > When the draft ended, so did the incentive to maintain one's student
> > > > > > deferment. I attended college from Sept 1965 -> June 1971 or a total
> > > > > > of 5 years and 9 months. Normally, that would have been 4 years in
> > > > > > college for a BS (bachelors of science) degree. Add another 9 months
> > > > > > for me studying for teachers preparation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At the time, we didn't have "mandatory race and gender studies"..
> > > > > > However, we did have an assortment of liberal arts and social sciences
> > > > > > classes, such as political science, English literature, philosophy,
> > > > > > economics, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > >There are still requirements for a certain number of non-technical
> > > > >courses, although the characterization of those as "race and gender
> > > > >studies" is right wing knee jerk silliness.
> > > > >
> > > > >Those who know little about college educations may be shocked to learn
> > > > >that the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology _requires_
> > > > >that engineering curricula meet a quota for non-engineering courses. A
> > > > >curriculum cannot be accredited without those courses.
> > > > >
> > > > >Besides science and math, they demand education in communication skills,
> > > > >economics and perhaps a couple other specific areas. But there are also
> > > > >minimum requirements for elective courses, and there's plenty of
> > > > >latitude on what some of those elective courses may contain. Philosophy,
> > > > >History, Psychology, Critical Thinking, Arts Appreciation and more are
> > > > >all valid choices, and students do get to choose according to their
> > > > >interests.
> > > > >
> > > > >As shocking as it may seem to some, ABET wants degreed engineers to have
> > > > >some culture and some knowledge of the world beyond their calculators.
> > > > They also want to extract as much $$$ from the student as possible.
> > > > >Hmm. I wonder if a course in Critical Thinking might convince some
> > > > >people who have never (or barely) attended college to stop commenting on
> > > > >what goes on in college.
> > > Well, now that really takes the cake - the man who took a hundred years in engineering school to earn a BA EE and was such an obnoxious ass that he couldn't get a job after his first one out of school when no one knew him, thinks that HE is cultured! Imagine, all of that time in school and having to work as a technician for himself rather than for a company that would have paid him ten times as much, thinks of himself as cultured!
> > >
> > > They have all of those miscellaneous classes in college because 80% of college graduates never work ONE DAY in their majors. So they have to have something to fall back on. You know, between jobs I did sort of work as a technician. Me and another guy formed a company installing telephone systems in skyscrapers and made a LOT of money. But I preferred engineering so much that I took a job designing and programming medical instruments making less money. And during the Vietnam Airlift I felt it my civic duty to work recovery on commercial aircraft and get our boys out of that hell hole we should NEVER have been involved in.
> > >
> > > Here is where that mindless Liebermann tells us that Eisenhower got us into Vietnam because he loves the lies. Eisenhower provided ONLY military advisers. Kennedy put American soldiers on the ground.
> > >
> > Krygowski may have had some "culture" compulsorily stuffed down his gullet but that doesn't mean he digested it rather than merely ingesting it. The evidence is that Franki-boy is a non-kulturny Polish peasant with as much relation to culture as to the King of England, a manifest impossibility. I do in fact know many cultured engineers (being cultured is axiomatic among my friends) but those who spent even a few minutes on this forum were pretty dismissive of Krygo. -- AJ
> This is why I wrote Krygowski off after returning from my concussion and reading his preposterous comments. Like him claiming to have disagreed with Jobst Brandt in public! I call them the Stupid 4 for a reason. They all know nothing and actually believe that they can invent history merely by wishing it so.
>
Frank-boy disagreeing with Jobst in public? If that were true, even an insensitive clown like Krygowski would long since be gone. Jobst was a talented and clever man, but he didn't suffer fools gladly, and besides his many engineering talents, he had a cutting lip. I can see it, Franki-boy hurls himself at the great man's ankles, and Jobst accidentally steps on him and squashes him like a bug.
>
All the same, Jobst, whom everyone knows I admired long, long -- decades -- before I met him here on RBT (motor racers of my generation knew about the exemplary brakes Jobst designed for Porsche), was only human in that he hated having unavoidable errors in publication pointed out to him, and I had the most extraordinary difficulty in getting him to admit that an error in the math in The Bicycle Wheel needed correcting at the next printing.
>
Even after Jobst grudgingly admitted that he has already discovered the error and decided to correct it at the next edition, some of the clowns here on RBT, who had been burned by Jobst or were simply too lacking in self-confidence to cross a fellow who took no prisoners, wanted me to carry on from there. One guy, I called him Jumbo, -- he was the fellow who claimed to be a materials expert and was always urging aluminium bikes on people -- argued that I was the only one who ever made any headway against Jobst, and therefore *owed it to the rest of the group* to carry on. But I'd made the single small point I wanted to make, and wouldn't have made except I mistook Jobst for another writer, who in the normal course of events are grateful to have correctable errors in long-running books pointed out politely.
>
A little hanger-on like Franki-boy did the smart thing to wait until Jobst was dead before he claimed to have contradicted him in public! Heh-heh! Hey, we carry on like this, and in another fifteen, twenty years, who knows, we could discover something else smart that Krygowski did,, or at least something else that isn't stupid.
>
Andre Jute
Editorial services are not free.
>

On Thu, 23 Nov 2023 16:10:58 -0800 (PST), Andre Jute
<fiultra1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>One guy, I called him Jumbo, (...) -- argued that I was the only
>one who ever made any headway against Jobst, and therefore
>*owed it to the rest of the group* to carry on.

In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.

My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
considered making "headway".

Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
people with childish names. If you expect to make any "headway" in
todays discussions, you won't get any respect from those you inspired
to do the same with your abuse of their names.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>
> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
>
> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
> considered making "headway".

As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
admitted to being wrong.

I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.

We can discuss all those now, if people like.

> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
> people with childish names.

Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
Things have gone downhill.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
>>
>> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
>> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
>> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
>> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
>> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
>> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
>> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
>> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
>> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
>> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
>> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
>> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
>>
>> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
>> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
>> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
>> considered making "headway".
>
>As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
>admitted to being wrong.
>
>I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
>impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
>thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
>direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
>discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
>thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
>materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
>was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
>
>We can discuss all those now, if people like.

Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
his immature nonsense rants...

>> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
>> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
>> people with childish names.
>
>Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
>Things have gone downhill.

Thanks to Krygowki.

On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 7:28:22 PM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> >>
> >> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
> >> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
> >> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
> >> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
> >> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
> >> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
> >> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
> >> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
> >> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
> >> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
> >> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
> >> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
> >>
> >> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
> >> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
> >> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
> >> considered making "headway".
> >
> >As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
> >admitted to being wrong.
> >
> >I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
> >impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
> >thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
> >direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
> >discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
> >thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
> >materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
> >was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
> >
> >We can discuss all those now, if people like.
> Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
> his immature nonsense rants...
> >> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
> >> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
> >> people with childish names.
> >
> >Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
> >Things have gone downhill.
> Thanks to Krygowki.
>
Exactly so. -- AJ
>

On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 15:49:24 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>I will say though that since I cannot remember Frank having this discussion with Jobst that I withdraw my comment that I never read Krygowski disagree with Jobst though I would hardly rate those as disagreements.

Perhaps a Google Groups search might stimulate your memory:

RBT postings by Jobst Brandt which mention or involve Frank Krygowski:
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/search?q=Krygowski+author%3AJobst+author%3ABrandt>

Checking only the first 25 postings, most of the messages involve some
form of discusion between Jobst and Frank. All the messages are prior
to Jan 2011 when he was involved in an accident that eventually proved
fatal. I found a few discusions in which both Jobst and Frank
participated. However, I didn't count them.

Archived bicycle postings and discussions mostly by Jobst:
<https://yarchive.net/bike/index.html> (by Norman Yarvin)
Searching for "Krygowski" doesn't find much because the archive only
searches the content and ignores the headers.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 11:49:26 PM UTC, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 2:56:17 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
> > On Saturday, November 25, 2023 at 7:28:22 PM UTC, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > > On Sat, 25 Nov 2023 13:21:22 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> > > <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > >On 11/23/2023 9:01 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> In about 2010, I locked horns with Jobst over the proper procedure for
> > > >> applying vulcanizing fluid to tire patches. Jobst claimed that the
> > > >> proper way was to apply the fluid over the patch after the plastic
> > > >> protective film had been removed. The fluid was then expected to
> > > >> diffuse through the rubber path and mix with the glue. I contended
> > > >> that won't work because the molecular diameter of the volatized
> > > >> vulcanizing fluid was many times larger than that of oxygen and
> > > >> nitrogen molecules. If the patch was expected to prevent the passage
> > > >> of air through the patch, it would also be expected to prevent the
> > > >> passage of the hydrocarbon compounds (75% heptane and 25% acetone) in
> > > >> vulcanizing fluid. Jobst and I engaged in a running debate on the
> > > >> topic in RBT for about 2 weeks and ending in a deadlock.
> > > >>
> > > >> My impression was that Jobst was very good in mechanical engineering
> > > >> but seriously lacking in chemistry and possibly in other areas outside
> > > >> his areas of expertise. I don't know if arguing to a stalemate is
> > > >> considered making "headway".
> > > >
> > > >As I recall, Jobst was only rarely wrong, and he even more rarely
> > > >admitted to being wrong.
> > > >
> > > >I recall three minor disputes he and I had. One was his claim that it's
> > > >impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
> > > >thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
> > > >direction and sort of accepting it. Another was during an extended
> > > >discussion of tires blowing off rims during extended braking. I said I
> > > >thought there were significant changes in the properties of the tire
> > > >materials, including adhesives. IIRC, he did eventually agree. A third
> > > >was his insistence that it was a bad idea to ride near lane center.
> > > >
> > > >We can discuss all those now, if people like.
> > > Oh, good grief, no. Please don't get Krygowski started on another of
> > > his immature nonsense rants...
> > > >> Some things were different in 2010 compared to later discussions.
> > > >> Nobody was lying, insulting, contriving amazing facts or belittling
> > > >> people with childish names.
> > > >
> > > >Well, there was certainly far less of that behavior in those days.
> > > >Things have gone downhill.
> > > Thanks to Krygowki.
> > >
> > Exactly so. -- AJ
> > >
> And the odd thing is that Krygowski still doesn't even imagine that he is full of shit.
> "One was his claim that it's
> > > >impossible to initiate a bicycle turn without countersteering. I said I
> > > >thought it was, by simply waiting for a random wobble in the proper
> > > >direction and sort of accepting it."
> Do you suppose that even for one second it occurred to Krygowski that that "random wobble" was initiated by a "random wobble" in the opposite direction and that that was the bike counter-steering itself because the rider is remaining more or less static which causes the bike to counter-steer in one direction and then the other? Jobst was quite right and as usual Krygowski was quite wrong.
>
> Also, tires do not blow off of their rims from extended braking due to chemical changes in the tire compound because a tire is held onto the rim with the bead material and the rim hooks. Neither of these are particularly sensitive to heat. The possible changes on the traction compound effects nothing.
>
> If you're talking about tubular tires it is from the cement melting to the point that the traction of the tire causes the melted glue to allow the tire to rotate and tear off the filler valve. This is chemistry 101 and again Jobst was correct.
>
> I will say though that since I cannot remember Frank having this discussion with Jobst that I withdraw my comment that I never read Krygowski disagree with Jobst though I would hardly rate those as disagreements.
>
Yah, I read that crap from Franki-boy about random wobbles, and smiled because I thought he was telling a joke. I imagine that Jobst humoured Franki-boy like you would an insane person with a fixation on his own infallibility. It would take too long to explain to an argumentative moron like Krygowski how a bike -- any two-wheeler with deformable tyres -- really works, so I moved on to productive work. I'm not surprised Franki-boy thought he won the argument; that's just who and what the poor man is. The counterintuitive motion of two-wheelers have been well-understood since just after World War II, and a link to the article describing the test results has several times over the years been published on RBT. (My Googlebug Slow Johnny will find it for us if Liebermann is tardy.) I can't even begin to guess why Krygowski is still so ignorant. Anyhow, I'm for my treadmill, on which I will watch the sprint event of the last MotoGP race of the season, with the champion rider still undecided; Ducati have long since won the constructor's crown and the finalists are both Ducati riders from different teams. -- Andre Jute