Obtp I invite you to come to Williams or Hollister and show us how to fly long xc from a local tow on days like we had this last week in the west. Clearly all of us should be ashamed with our 500-700km flights which often require 6-8000 feet tow to get from the airport to the convergence zone.

Ramy

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:20:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.
> > > > > > > Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP
> > > > > > That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.
> > > > > Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob
> > > > The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.
> > > Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP
> > I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were unavailable 50+ years ago.
> Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 5:45:40 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Obtp I invite you to come to Williams or Hollister and show us how to fly long xc from a local tow on days like we had this last week in the west. Clearly all of us should be ashamed with our 500-700km flights which often require 6-8000 feet tow to get from the airport to the convergence zone.
>
> Ramy
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:20:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > > As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.
> > > > > > > > Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP
> > > > > > > That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.
> > > > > > Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob
> > > > > The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.
> > > > Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP
> > > I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were unavailable 50+ years ago.
> > Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP
Ramy, please correct me if I am incorrect, you release altitude was 1020 meters AGL on your 5-13 flight Not 9K AGL. I understand your conditions very well, you guys get in the wave and run like hell, no apology needed. Bring your ship to Florida and we will go for a ride, it may well be a humbling experience. We do 3, 4, 5k flights with no wave or mountains except for the occasional landfill which is no more than 150 feet . I do enjoy your flights and watch them often, but lets not compare apples to oranges. OBTP

On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:
> It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about
>
> The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve
>
> I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
> On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
> >
> > On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
> >
> > Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> >
> > Tom 2G

Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.

Tom 2G

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 3:50:50 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 5:45:40 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > Obtp I invite you to come to Williams or Hollister and show us how to fly long xc from a local tow on days like we had this last week in the west. Clearly all of us should be ashamed with our 500-700km flights which often require 6-8000 feet tow to get from the airport to the convergence zone.
> >
> > Ramy
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:20:16 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:03:42 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 12:48:37 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 9:49:25 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:00:59 PM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 3:59:25 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:12:06 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 12:26:29 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > As Ramy points out, OLC/FAI scoring requires the finish be no more than 1000M below the start of scoring, which may or may not be where the engine is stopped. Note that a towed glider can also be towed to 9000' to start a soaring flight, and is scored the same way as a motorglider that has self-launched to 9000'. It is surprising that someone who claims to have so much experience over so many years of flying with so many different pilots didn't know one of the most basic FAI scoring rules.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I suggest you consider an electric self-launch glider with it's simplicity and reduced maintenance compared to a combustion glider.. It's smaller self-retrieve range would not be an impediment to someone determined to never self-retrieve.
> > > > > > > > > Eric, did I mention FAI? OBTP
> > > > > > > > That is irrelevant, as the issue Ramy and I addressed was something you specifically discussed: the "unfair" points obtained by taking a 9000' tow. Do you still think a high tow like that gives you 9000' to glide off and get lots of extra points, compared to a pilot that takes a 3000' tow? Try "dissecting" that flight again, and note carefully the scoring start height and scoring finish height. The finish point should be less than 1000M lower than the start point.
> > > > > > > Glad you mentioned that , the start point was almost 4K above what any normal PURIST would have taken. Look at the the graph yourself. Bob
> > > > > > The May 15, 2023 flight by Todd Tracy, was in a Pipestrel Sinus, a high wing, fixed gear "touring" motorglider of modest performance. He obviously climbed high enough to safely cross the Everglades, then shut down the motor when within gliding distance of airport near to where to soaring was likely to start. Most of his flights are like that. He flew the flight according to the rules, and was scored according to the rules. What rule changes do you propose to prevent this "unfair" kind of flying? Note that an unpowered glider could do the exact same flight by being towed to 9000'. This flight is not one only a motorglider could do.
> > > > > Both you and I would be ashamed to claim a flight like that, maybe I am giving you too much credit. OBTP
> > > > I have claimed flights like that, as there is no shame in following the rules, and this rule that bothers you so much was in use before you began soaring; in fact, the rule was developed when everyone flew towed gliders, as motorgliders were unavailable 50+ years ago.
> > > Maybe that is the way you guys and gals out West claim points, but us Floridians seem to have a bit more class. OBTP
> Ramy, please correct me if I am incorrect, you release altitude was 1020 meters AGL on your 5-13 flight Not 9K AGL. I understand your conditions very well, you guys get in the wave and run like hell, no apology needed. Bring your ship to Florida and we will go for a ride, it may well be a humbling experience. We do 3, 4, 5k flights with no wave or mountains except for the occasional landfill which is no more than 150 feet . I do enjoy your flights and watch them often, but lets not compare apples to oranges. OBTP
So, the important thing is the AGL release height, and not the fact Ramy has 8000' of altitude over his intended landing place? What rule changes do you propose for OLC to prevent the "unfair" flying done by pilots that take lau;nches greater than 2000'?

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:35:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:
> > It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about
> >
> > The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve
> >
> > I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
> > On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > > Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
> > >
> > > On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
> > >
> > > Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> > >
> > > Tom 2G
> Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.
>
> Tom 2G
And now, Old Bob is complaining about motorglider pilots that take a high launch, even though a towed glider could take an equally high launch.

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:41:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:35:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:
> > > It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about
> > >
> > > The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve
> > >
> > > I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
> > > On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > > > Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
> > > >
> > > > On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
> > > >
> > > > Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> > > >
> > > > Tom 2G
> > Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> And now, Old Bob is complaining about motorglider pilots that take a high launch, even though a towed glider could take an equally high launch.

To summarize, NOBODY has cancelled their MG orders as Boobie recommended, and TWO non-motorized glider pilots are considering the purchase of an MG (Boobie being one of them). This is what I expected (however, I DIDN'T expect Boobie to be actually looking at MGs). The NUMBER ONE reason pilots buy MGs is because of convenience. I have NEVER met a MG owner who said he bought the glider to save money on tow fees.

For the life of me, I NEVER expected a response to this poll about EXPOSING one's self. This is definitely DSM-5 material.

Tom 2G

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:59:40 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:41:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 4:35:07 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > > On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 4:25:39 AM UTC-7, andy l wrote:
> > > > It really is a shame how much of this forum is about stoking this argument again and again, as if there wasn't enough other stuff to talk about
> > > >
> > > > The launch is a small fraction of the flight, however it happens, and most flights do not end in any form of retrieve
> > > >
> > > > I don't have one, but I'm not opposed to the possibility of it happening in future, though unlikely. I doubt this is a rare opinion. I understand a large proportion of new gliders are so equipped, but we aren't all in for new gliders.
> > > > On Monday, 15 May 2023 at 03:08:09 UTC+1, 2G wrote:
> > > > > Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
> > > > >
> > > > > Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom 2G
> > > Sorry, Andy, but it IS soaring-related and relevant. I am with you, however, I wish Boobie would desist with this ongoing false slandering of the MG community.
> > >
> > > Tom 2G
> > And now, Old Bob is complaining about motorglider pilots that take a high launch, even though a towed glider could take an equally high launch.
> To summarize, NOBODY has cancelled their MG orders as Boobie recommended, and TWO non-motorized glider pilots are considering the purchase of an MG (Boobie being one of them). This is what I expected (however, I DIDN'T expect Boobie to be actually looking at MGs). The NUMBER ONE reason pilots buy MGs is because of convenience. I have NEVER met a MG owner who said he bought the glider to save money on tow fees.
>
> For the life of me, I NEVER expected a response to this poll about EXPOSING one's self. This is definitely DSM-5 material.
>
> Tom 2G
If I could be that large, that rugged, and that fast to erect, I'd be tempted to expose myself (the "flaunt it if you got it" philosphy for a good life)

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:32:45 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> Herb I think it took you a little longer than me…
> I am still looking for an electric solution which is good enough for me.
>
> Ramy
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:21:37 PM UTC-7, Herbert Kilian wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:09:07 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
> > > To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
> > > 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
> > > To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
> > What took you so long, Ramy? Get that self-launch motorglider, don't look back. The '29 is a fantastic glider but you can do even better.
> > Herb
I have a LAK Mini self launch (electric) and almost always self launch, even at Ely. It isn't a super glider but scoots around very well. In 4 years have not needed the motor to get back home and am always aware it will not get me far if used (maybe 30 or 40 miles). No gas engine maintenance issues or warm up/ cool down periods, either. For me it fills the bill.

Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:

Ramy
unread,
Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
to
Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
financially nor flying wise.
Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
around for few years and are available for resale.

Ramy

On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
>
> Ramy
>
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>> You and about three other people.
>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.
>>
>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
>> makes sense.
>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
>>
>> - Dave
>>
>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
>> state of California!
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom 2G
>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.
>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.
>>>>
>>>> Walt Connelly
>>>> Former tow pilot
>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot

Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.
What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
>
>
> Ramy
> unread,
> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
> to
> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
> financially nor flying wise.
> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
> around for few years and are available for resale.
>
> Ramy
> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
> > Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
> >
> > Ramy
> >
> > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
> >>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
> >> You and about three other people.
> >>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
> >> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
> >> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
> >> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.
> >>
> >> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
> >> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
> >> makes sense.
> >>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
> >> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
> >> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
> >> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
> >>
> >> - Dave
> >>
> >> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
> >> state of California!
> >>>
> >>> Ramy
> >>>
> >>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> >>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
> >>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> >>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Tom 2G
> >>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
> >>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
> >>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
> >>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
> >>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.
> >>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Walt Connelly
> >>>> Former tow pilot
> >>>> Now happy helicopter pilot

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 7:18:23 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.
> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?
>
> Ramy
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
> >
> >
> > Ramy
> > unread,
> > Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
> > to
> > Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
> > glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
> > with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
> > really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
> > great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
> > instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
> > than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
> > your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
> > financially nor flying wise.
> > Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
> > around for few years and are available for resale.
> >
> > Ramy
> > On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
> > > Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > >
> > > On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > >> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > >>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
> > >> You and about three other people.
> > >>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
> > >> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
> > >> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
> > >> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.
> > >>
> > >> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
> > >> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
> > >> makes sense.
> > >>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
> > >> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
> > >> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
> > >> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
> > >>
> > >> - Dave
> > >>
> > >> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
> > >> state of California!
> > >>>
> > >>> Ramy
> > >>>
> > >>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol..com wrote:
> > >>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
> > >>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> > >>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Tom 2G
> > >>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
> > >>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
> > >>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
> > >>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
> > >>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.
> > >>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Walt Connelly
> > >>>> Former tow pilot
> > >>>> Now happy helicopter pilot
Ramy, they gotcha, OBTP

On 5/23/23 5:18 PM, Ramy wrote:
> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”.

You didn't just mention it, you were drooling all over it. But I might
have exaggerated a bit with 'often'.

>I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.

Eric was, and still is, a superfan, although he's somewhat quieter about
it these days. Still not up to the level of Raul, who made two trips to
Europe just so he could touch one. He's gone kinda quiet too.

> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider.

No trouble at all. Just a few words typed into a search engine. It was
much tougher trying to find info on the Clean Sky fire.

Maybe I should?

You absolutely should. Instead of placing an order for something else,
these Jeta's are available off the shelf. There's one sitting in
Arizona that could be yours tomorrow. A bird in the hand is worth two
in the bush, as they say. Scratch that lithium itch today, instead of
five years from now!

-Dave

>
> Ramy
>
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
>>
>>
>> Ramy
>> unread,
>> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
>> to
>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
>> financially nor flying wise.
>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
>> around for few years and are available for resale.
>>
>> Ramy
>> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
>>> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>>>> You and about three other people.
>>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>>>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.
>>>>
>>>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
>>>> makes sense.
>>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
>>>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
>>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
>>>>
>>>> - Dave
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
>>>> state of California!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom 2G
>>>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
>>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
>>>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
>>>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.
>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Walt Connelly
>>>>>> Former tow pilot
>>>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot

Now my curiosity is tweaked. Has a second GP-15 been delivered to the
US yet?

Dan
5J

On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:
> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often posted about it.
> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?
>
> Ramy
>
> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
>>
>>
>> Ramy
>> unread,
>> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
>> to
>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
>> financially nor flying wise.
>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
>> around for few years and are available for resale.
>>
>> Ramy
>> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
>>> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>>>> You and about three other people.
>>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>>>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.
>>>>
>>>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl actually
>>>> makes sense.
>>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
>>>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've often
>>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
>>>>
>>>> - Dave
>>>>
>>>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
>>>> state of California!
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless glider order and switched to an MG?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie, DON'T reply!).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tom 2G
>>>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes of RAS.
>>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be gentle and
>>>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to discontinue
>>>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.
>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the time too.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Walt Connelly
>>>>>> Former tow pilot
>>>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot

Sure. They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.

Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to somebody
who flew it for a while in Driggs. That's the one that Kawa politely
declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.

Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through multiple
owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ. It's been hanging out on W&W
for quite a while.

On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Now my curiosity is tweaked.  Has a second GP-15 been delivered to the
> US yet?
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:
>> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
>> responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted about”.
>> I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably written in
>> that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more interested in FES or
>> RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it is Eric who often
>> posted about it.
>> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
>> trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I should?
>>
>> Ramy
>>
>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
>>>
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>> unread,
>>> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
>>> to
>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
>>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
>>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
>>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
>>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to keep
>>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
>>> financially nor flying wise.
>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
>>> around for few years and are available for resale.
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
>>>> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>>>>> You and about three other people.
>>>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I
>>>>>> think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>>>>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
>>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
>>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him going.
>>>>>
>>>>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think they
>>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
>>>>> actually
>>>>> makes sense.
>>>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts
>>>>>> less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first
>>>>>> order for a motorglider.
>>>>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've
>>>>> often
>>>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
>>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dave
>>>>>
>>>>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
>>>>> state of California!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false, opinions
>>>>>>>>> on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you canceled
>>>>>>>>> your MG order and switched to a motorless glider because of this?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless
>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie,
>>>>>>>>> DON'T reply!).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tom 2G
>>>>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes
>>>>>>>> of RAS.
>>>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be
>>>>>>>> gentle and
>>>>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to
>>>>>>>> discontinue
>>>>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the divisiveness
>>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here. Goodbye.
>>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or
>>>>>>> offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
>>>>>>> amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive
>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
>>>>>>> prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life
>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the
>>>>>>> same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the
>>>>>>> time too.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Walt Connelly
>>>>>>> Former tow pilot
>>>>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot

So... What's wrong with it other than the obvious lack of endurance (and
the included random uncommanded cabin heater)?

Dan
5J

On 5/24/23 09:32, kinsell wrote:
> Sure.  They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.
>
> Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to somebody
> who flew it for a while in Driggs.  That's the one that Kawa politely
> declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.
>
> Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through multiple
> owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ.  It's been hanging out on W&W
> for quite a while.
>
>
>
> On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> Now my curiosity is tweaked.  Has a second GP-15 been delivered to the
>> US yet?
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:
>>> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
>>> responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted
>>> about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably
>>> written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more
>>> interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it
>>> is Eric who often posted about it.
>>> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
>>> trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I
>>> should?
>>>
>>> Ramy
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>>> unread,
>>>> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
>>>> to
>>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
>>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
>>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
>>>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So many
>>>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
>>>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen before,
>>>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to
>>>> keep
>>>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
>>>> financially nor flying wise.
>>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
>>>> around for few years and are available for resale.
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>>> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
>>>>> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>>>>>> You and about three other people.
>>>>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I
>>>>>>> think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>>>>>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
>>>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's Eric
>>>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him
>>>>>> going.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
>>>>>> actually
>>>>>> makes sense.
>>>>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts
>>>>>>> less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first
>>>>>>> order for a motorglider.
>>>>>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've
>>>>>> often
>>>>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet! One
>>>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the great
>>>>>> state of California!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false,
>>>>>>>>>> opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you
>>>>>>>>>> canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider
>>>>>>>>>> because of this?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless
>>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint: Boobie,
>>>>>>>>>> DON'T reply!).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Tom 2G
>>>>>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes
>>>>>>>>> of RAS.
>>>>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be
>>>>>>>>> gentle and
>>>>>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to
>>>>>>>>> discontinue
>>>>>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the
>>>>>>>>> divisiveness
>>>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here.
>>>>>>>>> Goodbye.
>>>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or
>>>>>>>> offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
>>>>>>>> amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive
>>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
>>>>>>>> prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life
>>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do the
>>>>>>>> same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of the
>>>>>>>> time too.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Walt Connelly
>>>>>>>> Former tow pilot
>>>>>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot
>

Good question. Seems like Eric or Raul or Ramy would be all over that
thing like white on rice. Still showing 0 hours on the airframe, so you
get that new glider smell at a used glider price.

On 5/24/23 9:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> So... What's wrong with it other than the obvious lack of endurance (and
> the included random uncommanded cabin heater)?
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 5/24/23 09:32, kinsell wrote:
>> Sure.  They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.
>>
>> Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to
>> somebody who flew it for a while in Driggs.  That's the one that Kawa
>> politely declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.
>>
>> Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through
>> multiple owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ.  It's been hanging
>> out on W&W for quite a while.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> Now my curiosity is tweaked.  Has a second GP-15 been delivered to
>>> the US yet?
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:
>>>> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
>>>> responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted
>>>> about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably
>>>> written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more
>>>> interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it
>>>> is Eric who often posted about it.
>>>> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
>>>> trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I
>>>> should?
>>>>
>>>> Ramy
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>>> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramy
>>>>> unread,
>>>>> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
>>>>> to
>>>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
>>>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
>>>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
>>>>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So
>>>>> many
>>>>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
>>>>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen
>>>>> before,
>>>>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to
>>>>> keep
>>>>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
>>>>> financially nor flying wise.
>>>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
>>>>> around for few years and are available for resale.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ramy
>>>>> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>>> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
>>>>>> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>>>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
>>>>>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>>>>>>> You and about three other people.
>>>>>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I
>>>>>>>> think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>>>>>>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
>>>>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's
>>>>>>> Eric
>>>>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him
>>>>>>> going.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think
>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
>>>>>>> actually
>>>>>>> makes sense.
>>>>>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts
>>>>>>>> less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first
>>>>>>>> order for a motorglider.
>>>>>>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've
>>>>>>> often
>>>>>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet!
>>>>>>> One
>>>>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Dave
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the
>>>>>>> great
>>>>>>> state of California!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ramy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false,
>>>>>>>>>>> opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you
>>>>>>>>>>> canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider
>>>>>>>>>>> because of this?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless
>>>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint:
>>>>>>>>>>> Boobie, DON'T reply!).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tom 2G
>>>>>>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes
>>>>>>>>>> of RAS.
>>>>>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be
>>>>>>>>>> gentle and
>>>>>>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to
>>>>>>>>>> discontinue
>>>>>>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the
>>>>>>>>>> divisiveness
>>>>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here.
>>>>>>>>>> Goodbye.
>>>>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or
>>>>>>>>> offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
>>>>>>>>> amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive
>>>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
>>>>>>>>> prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life
>>>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do
>>>>>>>>> the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of
>>>>>>>>> the time too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Walt Connelly
>>>>>>>>> Former tow pilot
>>>>>>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot
>>

"so you get that new glider smell at a used glider price."

The new glider smell might have degraded over time, depending on how many prospective buyers have sat in it.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 9:07:30 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> Good question. Seems like Eric or Raul or Ramy would be all over that
> thing like white on rice. Still showing 0 hours on the airframe, so you
> get that new glider smell at a used glider price.
> On 5/24/23 9:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > So... What's wrong with it other than the obvious lack of endurance (and
> > the included random uncommanded cabin heater)?
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> >
> > On 5/24/23 09:32, kinsell wrote:
> >> Sure. They're both on the FAA registry with PESZKE S.C. as the mfg.
> >>
> >> Number 1 was flown as a factory demonstrator, then got sold to
> >> somebody who flew it for a while in Driggs. That's the one that Kawa
> >> politely declined to fly in the 2018 worlds.
> >>
> >> Number 2 got delivered at the 2020 SSA convention, went through
> >> multiple owners, and now is with the dealer in AZ. It's been hanging
> >> out on W&W for quite a while.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 5/24/23 9:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>> Now my curiosity is tweaked. Has a second GP-15 been delivered to
> >>> the US yet?
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>> 5J
> >>>
> >>> On 5/23/23 17:18, Ramy wrote:
> >>>> Hmm, the fact I didn’t remember I once mentioned the GP15 when
> >>>> responding to a thread about it doesn’t equal to “often posted
> >>>> about”. I know nothing about this glider beyond what was probably
> >>>> written in that thread from 2020. Personally I am much more
> >>>> interested in FES or RES so you may have mixed up things. I think it
> >>>> is Eric who often posted about it.
> >>>> What I find most amusing is that you going through the trouble of
> >>>> trying to prove that I am interested in a certain glider. Maybe I
> >>>> should?
> >>>>
> >>>> Ramy
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 1:53:43 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >>>>> Somebody must have been impersonating you in 2020:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ramy
> >>>>> unread,
> >>>>> Jun 29, 2020, 4:21:08 PM
> >>>>> to
> >>>>> Do folks really sell their gliders so that they can pay deposit on a
> >>>>> glider which was not built yet, knowing how common big delays are even
> >>>>> with the most established factories? Why would anyone do that? If you
> >>>>> really must sell your glider to buy another, buy a used glider. So
> >>>>> many
> >>>>> great used gliders in like new conditions out there which you can buy
> >>>>> instantly. If you really want a brand new glider you never seen
> >>>>> before,
> >>>>> than you should be able to afford the financial risk and be able to
> >>>>> keep
> >>>>> your glider meanwhile. Otherwise it does not make sense neither
> >>>>> financially nor flying wise.
> >>>>> Personally I think the GP15 sounds great, I will wait until they fly
> >>>>> around for few years and are available for resale.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Ramy
> >>>>> On 5/16/23 8:46 PM, Ramy wrote:
> >>>>>> Dave, I never considered nor even mentioned the Jeta.
> >>>>>> Maybe a JS3 RES or AS33ME. or FES?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ramy
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:36:24 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 5/16/23 3:09 PM, Ramy wrote:
> >>>>>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
> >>>>>>> You and about three other people.
> >>>>>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I
> >>>>>>>> think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
> >>>>>>> Exactly. His(?) postings aren't about motorgliders, they're just
> >>>>>>> endless flamebbaiting, to get attention. It's not just Tom, it's
> >>>>>>> Eric
> >>>>>>> and a few others that constantly take the bait, which keeps him
> >>>>>>> going.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> People have learned not to respond to Daryl Kabatoff, you'd think
> >>>>>>> they
> >>>>>>> would figure out OBTP eventually. The only difference is Daryl
> >>>>>>> actually
> >>>>>>> makes sense.
> >>>>>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts
> >>>>>>>> less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first
> >>>>>>>> order for a motorglider.
> >>>>>>> Excellent! Can we assume it's going to be the vaunted Jeta you've
> >>>>>>> often
> >>>>>>> posted about? Get yourself a Honda generator and save the planet!
> >>>>>>> One
> >>>>>>> more coal-fired glider would probably bring down the grid.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Dave
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> P.S. Don't go for the "49 State" Honda, those are banned in the
> >>>>>>> great
> >>>>>>> state of California!
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ramy
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 6:01:55 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, May 15, 2023 at 3:56:55 PM UTC-4, robert holliday
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, May 14, 2023 at 9:08:09 PM UTC-5, 2G wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Boobie has been posting much derogatory, mostly false,
> >>>>>>>>>>> opinions on motorgliders for some time now. Have ANY of you
> >>>>>>>>>>> canceled your MG order and switched to a motorless glider
> >>>>>>>>>>> because of this?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, have ANY of you canceled your motorless
> >>>>>>>>>>> glider order and switched to an MG?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Please, I am interested ONLY in serious replies (hint:
> >>>>>>>>>>> Boobie, DON'T reply!).
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Tom 2G
> >>>>>>>>>> I used to really enjoy the comaraderie and accepting attitudes
> >>>>>>>>>> of RAS.
> >>>>>>>>>> I always felt that if I needed advice that the group would be
> >>>>>>>>>> gentle and
> >>>>>>>>>> truly helpful. I now feel alienated from RAS and I am going to
> >>>>>>>>>> discontinue
> >>>>>>>>>> reading and sometimes posting on this group due to the
> >>>>>>>>>> divisiveness
> >>>>>>>>>> and negative attitudes of many recent people posting here.
> >>>>>>>>>> Goodbye.
> >>>>>>>>> Mr Holliday, apparently some are more easily "triggered' or
> >>>>>>>>> offended than others. I find most of the repartee here very
> >>>>>>>>> amusing. However if you want to see some attacks and offensive
> >>>>>>>>> comments, find my post about getting the FAA involved in
> >>>>>>>>> prohibiting the Schweizer type hook on tow planes. I take life
> >>>>>>>>> with a grain of salt and a root beer float, I suggest you do
> >>>>>>>>> the same. People are a$$holes most of the time and the rest of
> >>>>>>>>> the time too.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Walt Connelly
> >>>>>>>>> Former tow pilot
> >>>>>>>>> Now happy helicopter pilot
> >>

.. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
>
> Ramy

Considering the number of jet gliders currently flying, please enumerate the occurrences of fires. I am only aware of one, and that was the homebuilt ASH-25.

On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:

> Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.

Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
hype. It's fine to change your mind.

Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
JS, Maybe Ventus.
> If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
>
> Ramy

Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all
batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and
detection.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf

Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.

Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
drive.

If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
should stick with conventional gliders.

Dave

Mark, yes, that’s the only jet fire I am aware.

Ramy

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 7:36:16 PM UTC-7, Mark Mocho wrote:
> . So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
> >
> > Ramy
> Considering the number of jet gliders currently flying, please enumerate the occurrences of fires. I am only aware of one, and that was the homebuilt ASH-25.

I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.

Ramy

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:
>
> > Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.
> Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
> hype. It's fine to change your mind.
> Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
> would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
> JS, Maybe Ventus.
> > If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
> >
> > Ramy
> Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
> program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all
> batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and
> detection.
>
> https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf
>
> Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand..
>
> Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
> drive.
>
> If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
> should stick with conventional gliders.
>
> Dave

On 5/21/23 12:07 PM, Lynn Wyman wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 5:32:45 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
>> Herb I think it took you a little longer than me…
>> I am still looking for an electric solution which is good enough for me.
>>
>> Ramy
>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 2:21:37 PM UTC-7, Herbert Kilian wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 4:09:07 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
>>>> To be honest I find OBTP amusing most of the time.
>>>> 2G not so much. He seem to take OBTP way too seriously, which I think is why OBTP keep trolling him…
>>>> To answer 2G poll, as I am aging and may start finding landouts less desiring I am actually getting closer to putting my first order for a motorglider.
>>> What took you so long, Ramy? Get that self-launch motorglider, don't look back. The '29 is a fantastic glider but you can do even better.
>>> Herb
> I have a LAK Mini self launch (electric) and almost always self launch, even at Ely. It isn't a super glider but scoots around very well. In 4 years have not needed the motor to get back home and am always aware it will not get me far if used (maybe 30 or 40 miles). No gas engine maintenance issues or warm up/ cool down periods, either. For me it fills the bill.

Just for grins, have you ever tried an 8000 ft launch? I assume they
don't allow ballast for any selflaunch?

Just curious what would happen first, batteries depleted, motor
overheat, inverter overheat, or battery overheat?

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:45:59 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
> At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.
>
> Ramy
> On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:
> >
> > > Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.
> > Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
> > hype. It's fine to change your mind.
> > Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
> > would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
> > JS, Maybe Ventus.
> > > If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
> > program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all
> > batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and
> > detection.
> >
> > https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf
> >
> > Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.
> >
> > Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
> > drive.
> >
> > If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
> > should stick with conventional gliders.
> >
> > Dave

Statistically speaking, the number of fires in electric motorgliders is off the charts when compared to cars. EV cars have a rate of 25 per 100,000, whereas EV gliders are about 1 in 100, which is 40 times higher. Whether it occurs in flight or not is irrelevant. Hopefully, manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell.

Tom 2G

>> So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.

Careful there. Someone on the Schleicher motorglider group once claimed
there had never been a fire on a Schleicher. I brought up a fire where
a bearing failure destroyed the prop drive belt and made a real mess.
It was a well-known failure. He accused me of "malfeasance". What a
JA! What was his name, Thumper? Dumper? Something like that.

> Considering the number of jet gliders currently flying, please enumerate the occurrences of fires. I am only aware of one, and that was the homebuilt ASH-25.

The number of self-launch jets is quite small. They guzzle kerosene
faster than Pelosi can knock back martinis, and you need to do insider
trading to pay for them.

The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers, if there
were, we'd all be using them. Electrics are certainly no magic bullet,
they've got their own problems.