In a word: Stemme.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

Sure would hate to land one in a field. I know they've got a good
motor, but everything fails sooner or later. Some Stemme's fail sooner
than later.

On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In a word:  Stemme.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

And you edited out the second half of the sentence:

> if there were, we'd all be using them.

If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
Elfin comes out . . .

JK

If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
If you're happy, that's great.

- Dave

On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> In a word:  Stemme.
>
> Dan
> 5J
>
> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers

That's why I always keep a paved runway within reach.

Dan
5J

On 5/26/23 13:29, kinsell wrote:
> Sure would hate to land one in a field.  I know they've got a good
> motor, but everything fails sooner or later.  Some Stemme's fail sooner
> than later.
>
>
>
> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>> In a word:  Stemme.
>>
>> Dan
>> 5J
>>
>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
>

On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:32:24 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:45:59 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
> > At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders.
> >
> > Ramy
> > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.
> > > Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
> > > hype. It's fine to change your mind.
> > > Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
> > > would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
> > > JS, Maybe Ventus.
> > > > If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
> > > >
> > > > Ramy
> > > Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
> > > program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all
> > > batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and
> > > detection.
> > >
> > > https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf
> > >
> > > Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.
> > >
> > > Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
> > > drive.
> > >
> > > If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
> > > should stick with conventional gliders.
> > >
> > > Dave
> Statistically speaking, the number of fires in electric motorgliders is off the charts when compared to cars. EV cars have a rate of 25 per 100,000, whereas EV gliders are about 1 in 100, which is 40 times higher. Whether it occurs in flight or not is irrelevant. Hopefully, manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell.
>
> Tom 2G
I suggest comparing EV car and EV glider fires rates tells you nothing useful, as the propulsion systems are dramatically different designs to fit their dramatically different purposes and operations. Fatality rates for cars are very much lower than the same number for gliders. Should we also hope "manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell." Or should we just quit comparing these two very different devices with very different purposes?

On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> > if there were, we'd all be using them.
> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> Elfin comes out . . .
>
> JK
>
> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
> If you're happy, that's great.
>
> - Dave
> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > In a word: Stemme.
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> >
> > On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> >> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 5:27:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 7:32:24 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 25, 2023 at 8:45:59 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
> > > I believe the Taurus is the only electric fire in the air, the rest happened on the ground, some outside the glider.
> > > At this point I think the risk of fire is similar in all motorgliders..
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > > On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 8:32:01 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > > On 5/24/23 4:13 PM, Ramy wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dave, I will say this one last time. I am not known for purchasing uncommon gliders. It is either Schleicher or JS3 for me. In fact I never owned nor even seriously considered any motorglider until this year, I still consider myself purist.
> > > > Just going by what you posted in 2020, you did get swept up in the Jeta
> > > > hype. It's fine to change your mind.
> > > > Electric self launcher is currently the only type of motorglider I
> > > > would consider, as long as it is a common glider such as schleicher or
> > > > JS, Maybe Ventus.
> > > > > If they will be proven to have higher risk of fire than other propulsion, I will probably continue flying pure gliders. So far all motorglider fires I know of were gas or jet engines.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ramy
> > > > Ummm, you're not aware of the FES fires that occurred early in the
> > > > program? There were three or four of those, causing a recall of all
> > > > batteries, and other design changes for better fire prevention and
> > > > detection.
> > > >
> > > > https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/59c8f175e5274a49c07f4704/AAIB_S3-2017_G-GSGS.pdf
> > > >
> > > > Then there was the Taurus Electro that burned and broke up in New Zealand.
> > > >
> > > > Antares had numerous smaller fires, generally in circuitry in the motor
> > > > drive.
> > > >
> > > > If you believe electric motorgliders are immune from fire, probably
> > > > should stick with conventional gliders.
> > > >
> > > > Dave
> > Statistically speaking, the number of fires in electric motorgliders is off the charts when compared to cars. EV cars have a rate of 25 per 100,000, whereas EV gliders are about 1 in 100, which is 40 times higher. Whether it occurs in flight or not is irrelevant. Hopefully, manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> I suggest comparing EV car and EV glider fires rates tells you nothing useful, as the propulsion systems are dramatically different designs to fit their dramatically different purposes and operations. Fatality rates for cars are very much lower than the same number for gliders. Should we also hope "manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell." Or should we just quit comparing these two very different devices with very different purposes?

You certainly can't use EV car fire statistics to "prove" that EV gliders are safe.

Tom 2G

On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 7:57:11 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
> On Monday, May 29, 2023 at 5:27:24 PM UTC-7, Eric Greenwell wrote:

> > I suggest comparing EV car and EV glider fires rates tells you nothing useful, as the propulsion systems are dramatically different designs to fit their dramatically different purposes and operations. Fatality rates for cars are very much lower than the same number for gliders. Should we also hope "manufacturers have learned from these events and have incorporated design changes to mitigate catastrophic outcomes, but only time will tell." Or should we just quit comparing these two very different devices with very different purposes?
> You certainly can't use EV car fire statistics to "prove" that EV gliders are safe.
>
> Tom 2G
That is implied in my suggestion we stop comparing ev cars and ev gliders, so we agree on that. I don't think we can even use your "1 in 100" statistics to prove anything, because the technology is changing, and the past does not predict the future in that case.

On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
>>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
>> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
>> Elfin comes out . . .
>>
>> JK
>>
>> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
>> If you're happy, that's great.
>>
>> - Dave
>> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>> In a word: Stemme.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>> 5J
>>>
>>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
>>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.

The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
don't like TMG's.

The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.

-Dave

Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.

Ramy

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 8:15:23 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> >>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
> >> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> >> Elfin comes out . . .
> >>
> >> JK
> >>
> >> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> >> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> >> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> >> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
> >> If you're happy, that's great.
> >>
> >> - Dave
> >> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>> In a word: Stemme.
> >>>
> >>> Dan
> >>> 5J
> >>>
> >>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> >>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> > I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
> The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> don't like TMG's.
>
> The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
>
> -Dave

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:37:41 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.
>
> Ramy
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 8:15:23 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > >> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> > >>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
> > >> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> > >> Elfin comes out . . .
> > >>
> > >> JK
> > >>
> > >> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> > >> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> > >> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> > >> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
> > >> If you're happy, that's great.
> > >>
> > >> - Dave
> > >> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >>> In a word: Stemme.
> > >>>
> > >>> Dan
> > >>> 5J
> > >>>
> > >>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> > >>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> > > I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate, maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
> > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > don't like TMG's.
> >
> > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> >
> > -Dave
If Ramy buys a Stemme I will dress like a Drag Queen and have Virelli paint my picture for a cover of Soaring ! OBTP

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:40:38 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:37:41 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.
> >
> > Ramy

> > > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > > don't like TMG's.
> > >
> > > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> > >
> > > -Dave
> If Ramy buys a Stemme I will dress like a Drag Queen and have Virelli paint my picture for a cover of Soaring ! OBTP
"Drag Queen" would be a great name for a towplane.
Eric

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 4:32:58 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 12:40:38 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 11:37:41 AM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > > Dave, a Stemme meets my requirement as much as a semi-trailer meets my requirement for a tow vehicle. You seem to really know my flying style and what I am looking for.
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > > > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > > > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > > > don't like TMG's.
> > > >
> > > > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > > > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > > > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > > > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > > > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > > > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> > > >
> > > > -Dave
> > If Ramy buys a Stemme I will dress like a Drag Queen and have Virelli paint my picture for a cover of Soaring ! OBTP
> "Drag Queen" would be a great name for a towplane.
> Eric
Eric, it would be a better name for a motorglider since it is not a glider and not an airplane, kind of a TRANNY! OBTP

It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,

Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!

Dan
5J

On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:
> On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
>>> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
>>>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
>>> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
>>> Elfin comes out . . .
>>>
>>> JK
>>>
>>> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
>>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
>>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
>>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
>>> If you're happy, that's great.
>>>
>>> - Dave
>>> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
>>>> In a word:  Stemme.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> 5J
>>>>
>>>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
>>>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
>> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
>> misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
>> maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
>
> The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after.  It's not
> for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> don't like TMG's.
>
> The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> than an FES does.  Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> speed capability and really good glide ratio.  The only box it doesn't
> check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on.  That 30X energy
> density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
>
> -Dave

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
> here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
> glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,
>
> Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
> as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
> glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!
>
> Dan
> 5J
> On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:
> > On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> >>> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> >>>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
> >>> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> >>> Elfin comes out . . .
> >>>
> >>> JK
> >>>
> >>> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> >>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> >>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> >>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me..
> >>> If you're happy, that's great.
> >>>
> >>> - Dave
> >>> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>>> In a word: Stemme.
> >>>>
> >>>> Dan
> >>>> 5J
> >>>>
> >>>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> >>>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> >> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
> >> misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
> >> maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
> >
> > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > don't like TMG's.
> >
> > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> >
> > -Dave
After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
> > here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
> > glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,
> >
> > Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
> > as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
> > glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!
> >
> > Dan
> > 5J
> > On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:
> > > On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > >> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > >>> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> > >>>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
> > >>> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> > >>> Elfin comes out . . .
> > >>>
> > >>> JK
> > >>>
> > >>> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> > >>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> > >>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> > >>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
> > >>> If you're happy, that's great.
> > >>>
> > >>> - Dave
> > >>> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > >>>> In a word: Stemme.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Dan
> > >>>> 5J
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> > >>>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> > >> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
> > >> misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
> > >> maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
> > >
> > > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > > don't like TMG's.
> > >
> > > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> > >
> > > -Dave
> After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP

Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.

Tom 2G

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:02:10 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail..com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
> > > here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
> > > glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,
> > >
> > > Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
> > > as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
> > > glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!
> > >
> > > Dan
> > > 5J
> > > On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:
> > > > On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > >> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > >>> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> > > >>>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
> > > >>> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> > > >>> Elfin comes out . . .
> > > >>>
> > > >>> JK
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> > > >>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> > > >>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> > > >>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
> > > >>> If you're happy, that's great.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> - Dave
> > > >>> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > >>>> In a word: Stemme.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Dan
> > > >>>> 5J
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> > > >>>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> > > >> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
> > > >> misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
> > > >> maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
> > > >
> > > > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > > > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > > > don't like TMG's.
> > > >
> > > > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > > > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > > > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > > > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > > > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > > > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> > > >
> > > > -Dave
> > After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP
> Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.
>
> Tom 2G
Tommy The Tyrant, even an alligator would avoid you. OBTP

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:27:17 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 1:02:10 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Wednesday, May 31, 2023 at 12:46:04 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 7:49:33 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > It seems that I lot of Europeans use the Stemme as a TMG, not so much
> > > > here. The only time I cruise on the engine is if I'm repositioning the
> > > > glider as I did a couple of years ago when I spent a week in Rifle, CO,
> > > >
> > > > Now some Europeans use the Stemme as a glider and have done such things
> > > > as fly from France, over Corsica, to Italy, and on to Greece. As a
> > > > glider. That would be quite a retrieve for a purist glider!
> > > >
> > > > Dan
> > > > 5J
> > > > On 5/30/23 09:15, kinsell wrote:
> > > > > On 5/29/23 6:34 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > >> On Friday, May 26, 2023 at 1:04:04 PM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
> > > > >>> And you edited out the second half of the sentence:
> > > > >>>> if there were, we'd all be using them.
> > > > >>> If they're so great, why aren't people flocking to them? Maybe when the
> > > > >>> Elfin comes out . . .
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> JK
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If I could get similar performance in 15 meters as what I get in 18, and
> > > > >>> still self launch, that would be very attractive. That's why so many
> > > > >>> people thought Jeta was great. Fortunately I never considered pulling
> > > > >>> out my checkbook. Going to a big Stemme would be of no interest to me.
> > > > >>> If you're happy, that's great.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> - Dave
> > > > >>> On 5/26/23 12:15 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> > > > >>>> In a word: Stemme.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Dan
> > > > >>>> 5J
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> On 5/26/23 08:05, kinsell wrote:
> > > > >>>>> The fact is, there are no great solutions for self-launchers
> > > > >> I'm with Dave on this one. The Stemme is an amazing compromise, but it
> > > > >> misses "great" because it's large, heavy, complex to operate,
> > > > >> maintenance-intensive, and expensive.
> > > > >
> > > > > The Stemme makes a very good TMG, if that's what you're after. It's not
> > > > > for me or you, but I'm not going to rant and rave endlessly about how I
> > > > > don't like TMG's.
> > > > >
> > > > > The truth is, a Stemme comes a lot closer to meeting Ramy's requirements
> > > > > than an FES does. Ability to self-launch 8K feet, and still have a
> > > > > self-retrieve capability while doing big distance flights, with high
> > > > > speed capability and really good glide ratio. The only box it doesn't
> > > > > check is electric, which he seems to be hung up on. That 30X energy
> > > > > density difference between gas and electricity is hard to ignore.
> > > > >
> > > > > -Dave
> > > After yesterdays flights on OLC the guys in the motorgliders need to reconsider their purchases and trade those dogs in on a Lowly 27 and get a few tips from Jared. Very nice flight out of Ohio and take a look at his real triangle, not some FAI definition of what I call an abbreviated triangle.. Yep, Jared didn't have those cruising altitudes like the dudes in the motorgliders out West, yet did it in rather Purist style. OBTP
> > Yeah, and join you down in the swamp trying to fight alligators with a pop gun.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> Tommy The Tyrant, even an alligator would avoid you. OBTP

Hey Booby, I AM NOT the one who landed out in a SWAMP!

Tom 2G

Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
Batteries in wings.
Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:
> Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
> I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
> But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
> Batteries in wings.
> Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
> This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
> But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.
Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi, only a convenient. Between steerable tail wheel and portable batteries I’ll pick portable batteries.

Ramy

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 7:10:48 PM UTC-7, Terry Edmonds wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 6:24:47 PM UTC-5, Jonathan Audy wrote:
> > Maybe i am one of a few who did cancel an order for a MG…
> > I had ordered an avionic Diana 4ER, but they seemed to not be making much forward progress on the design and provided almost zero updates, so I lost confidence.
> > But the main reason I cancelled is for one simple reason:
> > Batteries in wings.
> > Unfortunately almost all electric gliders being developed have batteries in wings.
> > This is great if you have a hangar with a power outlet, and you never go on road trips to other sites.
> > But it is really impractical if you keep your glider in a trailer at the airport. Also in the hot CA weather you do not want batteries getting hot under the sun waiting to launch. One of the main Battery fire hazards occur during charging - now your entire glider is a fire hazard instead of just the battery. But i think this is a much smaller risk these days. Much better to have fuselage mounted batteries that dont require disassembly of the glider to install/remove - and that you can take back to a hotel room to charge, or back home and charge in a fire-safe location. Also I suspect easier future upgradeability to the expected double-capacity semi solid-state batteries in the coming years. Now sure, the glider needs stronger wings to handle the g-loading due to the central mass. The only company in my mind that is making a practical-to-use electric self-launcher is Jonker’s JS3 RES. And it seems they are killing it in the market. Really not sure why the other big-name manufacturers all went with batteries in the wings, other than ‘it was the easiest route’. So I likely will order the JS3 RES when finances allow.
> Are you aware the JS3 RES does not have a steerable tailwheel nor is the manufacture planning to add it. This is not going to sell well in the US as most self-launch pilots fly out of airports where it is necessary to taxi.

On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
> only a convenient...

But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
> > only a convenient...
>
> But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
> For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...
Both a self launching motor and a steerable tailwheel are convenience items in a glider. If you've never flown with a steerable tailwheel, you do not appreciate it. For me, if I had to choose one or the other, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the tailwheel over the motor.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
> > only a convenient...
>
> But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
> For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...
Flying from a gliderport usually means there are people willing and able to help you position your glider for the launch and help you return it to the ramp area after a landing, whether you are a towed or motored glider. This rarely true at other airports, where you might have a 1000'-3000' trip to the end of the runway. Push it? Physically draining, and blocks the taxiway or the runway while you are doing it. Tow it with a vehicle? That works at some low-use airports, especially if you have a crew that can return the vehicle to the ramp, though some airports get upset when a vehicle appears on the runway or taxiway. Towered airports really, really expect you to taxi, but sometimes arrangements can be made.

On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:40:26 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 8:24:33 AM UTC-7, Dave Nadler wrote:
> > On Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 10:39:51 PM UTC-4, Ramy wrote:
> > > Most motorglider pilots in the US fly from gliderports where it is not necessary to taxi,
> > > only a convenient...
> >
> > But, lots of us fly from multiple airports where we must taxi.
> > For us the steerable tailwheel is a requirement...
> Both a self launching motor and a steerable tailwheel are convenience items in a glider. If you've never flown with a steerable tailwheel, you do not appreciate it. For me, if I had to choose one or the other, I'm not sure I wouldn't pick the tailwheel over the motor.
I think a steerable tail is also a safety feature, especially in cross winds or unassisted launches (towed or motored). It's so much easier to keep the glider going straight at the start, and much easier to turn off the runway safely on landing. If had to fly a towed glider, I'd still want steerable tailwheel.