Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?

I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
ROY

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:09:35 PM UTC-6, Roy B. wrote:
> Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?
> I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
> ROY

And let us not forget little things like density altitude, field elevation and pilot technique.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

Lawrence,
While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.linda ; happy to share. L

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:44:26 AM UTC-4, Linda Chism wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> Lawrence,
> While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.linda ; happy to share. L
Linda certainly know towing, she won the coveted tow pilot award for the year with a whopping 83 tows, way to go Linda. I will stick to what Roy said, no two Pawnee's are alike and the takeoff distance is a variable based on many factors including pilot technique. OBTP, tow pilot that makes over 1200 a year and still learning.

On 9/7/2023 9:44 PM, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
>

Our club is measuring tow performance with various gliders. (L-19, not
Pawnee.) But different days have different density altitudes. Is there
an accepted formula for the expected effect of density altitude on the
climb rate in the tow? I've seen a rule of thumb for airplanes (not
towing) of 3.5% reduction in ROC per 1000 feet increase in denalt. Is
that correct? For towing too?

The effects of density altitude (and wind, and glider weight and type)
on initial acceleration, ground roll, and post-liftoff acceleration, are
a whole 'nuther kettle of fish. But any info on that would be welcome
too. Our runway surface is grass.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.

What is your objective?
UH

Rate of climb is important, obviously, but as a glider pilot (I'm not a tow pilot), I care most about one thing: how long does it take to get to 200 feet (preferably at no less than 60 kts) and where am I when that happens? They're related, of course, but I don't think ROC tells the whole story. Thoughts from those more experienced?

Chip Bearden
"JB"

We often see 10,000' density altitudes in the summer at Moriarty. Then
add in glider type, ballast or not, experience of the glider pilot...
It goes on.

Dan
5J

On 9/7/23 20:55, Mark628CA wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 8:09:35 PM UTC-6, Roy B. wrote:
>> Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
>>> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?
>> I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
>> ROY
>
> And let us not forget little things like density altitude, field elevation and pilot technique.

I did 52 tows in a Pawnee 235 in Creede, CO (field elev 8,680' MSL) one
summer weekend. Is that enough experience to weigh in?

Dan
5J

On 9/8/23 05:44, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 12:44:26 AM UTC-4, Linda Chism wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
>>> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
>> Lawrence,
>> While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.linda ; happy to share. L
> Linda certainly know towing, she won the coveted tow pilot award for the year with a whopping 83 tows, way to go Linda. I will stick to what Roy said, no two Pawnee's are alike and the takeoff distance is a variable based on many factors including pilot technique. OBTP, tow pilot that makes over 1200 a year and still learning.

Dan,

I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉

Mike

> I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉

Plus, more than 75% of the "customers" would have to get up and away. Your score declines for each relight.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:09:35 PM UTC-5, Roy B. wrote:
> Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights?
> I've towed with 8 or 9 different Pawnees and I am not sure that I would trust the data if you find it. Among PA25-235s and 260s (not to mention the occasional 180hp), Hutchinson conversions, different wingtips, hopper in or hopper out, fuel load variables, grass versus paved surfaces, etc. they are all different.
> ROY
Thanks, Roy. I appreciate there are all sorts of variables. Still would appreciate any advice, insights, or even rules of thumb to keep us tow pilots safe, especially during hot temperatures.

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 11:44:26 PM UTC-5, Linda Chism wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 6:44:38 PM UTC-7, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> Lawrence,
> While the RAS responders get all lathered up telling you all the ways your question is wrong, let me offer you & your club info, data, and insights on Pawnee towing performance as you asked. Feel free to contact me directly at “gmail” address chism.linda ; happy to share. L

Thanks, Linda. I just sent you an email to your gmail.

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 8:42:50 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> What is your objective?
> UH

Our objective is to just keep our roster of tow pilots safe. For example, we were thinking through the safety margins our club wanted to consider / implement for higher temperature towing. As you all know, you don't get the best climb rates, even with a Pawnee let alone a 152, with a high-density altitude day with a dual 2-33. So we wanted to gather advice.

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 11:34:18 AM UTC-5, Chip Bearden wrote:
> Rate of climb is important, obviously, but as a glider pilot (I'm not a tow pilot), I care most about one thing: how long does it take to get to 200 feet (preferably at no less than 60 kts) and where am I when that happens? They're related, of course, but I don't think ROC tells the whole story. Thoughts from those more experienced?
>
> Chip Bearden
> "JB"
good point.

Dammit...

Dan
5J

On 9/8/23 12:12, Michael Fadden wrote:
> Dan,
>
> I checked the RAS Expert Qualifications Chart and it seems you were one short for the weekend. Maybe next time.😉
>
> Mike

On 9/8/2023 12:34 PM, Chip Bearden wrote:
> Rate of climb is important, obviously, but as a glider pilot (I'm not a tow pilot), I care most about one thing: how long does it take to get to 200 feet (preferably at no less than 60 kts) and where am I when that happens? They're related, of course, but I don't think ROC tells the whole story. Thoughts from those more experienced?
>
> Chip Bearden
> "JB"
>

We're measuring that too, of course. But as far as comparing results
from different days (different density altitude) I thought to ask for
the easier part first: how is the ROC expected to change.

Some days, in some gliders, the "200 feet" point seems too far out to
return to the runway. Worst when there's a bit of a tailwind, so should
avoid that!

On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
#1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
#2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
#3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
#4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
#5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
#6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
#7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
#8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
#9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
#10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 4:25:30 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
> #1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
> #2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
> #3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
> #4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
> #5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
> #6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
> #7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
> #8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
> #9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
> #10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
> I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP

I'm still unclear what the original poster is trying to get to. Is it some kind of hard decision point where we don't tow the (fill in) 2-33 with 2 people because it is now too heavy?
There are so many variables to consider.
1- Pure tug performance- type, weight, horse power, prop, current engine condition(plugs clean and clear?)etc.
2 Tug pilot weight
3 Fuel on board
4 Surface - Grass(tall or not), soft ground, paved
5 Glider mass and drag characteristics.
6 Tug pilot technique- Soft takeoff vs "normal", best angle of climb or wait for best rate. Fast acceleration or gentle.
7 Glider pilot technique. A dragging skid can hurt more than mass. Wandering student reduces performance.
8 Temperature and dew point- density altitude
9 Elevation
10 Field slope
11 Obstructions to consider.
12. High tow vs low tow
13- Others could add more to this list
UH

On reflection it seems to me that this is a nonsense question unless
it's meant for a group of newbies, with new (to them) pilots, gliders,
tugs, airfield, etc.

Has something changed and you need to know answers? We've been towing
all sorts of gliders with all sorts of tugs at all sorts of locations
for decades. Maybe an air retrieve out of a short non-airport field?
That's on you to read, understand, and follow the published performance
data with consideration of aircraft condition, weather, pilot skill, etc.

We can't tell you how to do this and you'd be a fool to take the advice
of strangers in a unique, critical situation.

Dan
5J

On 9/9/23 07:00, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 4:25:30 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
>>> Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
>> Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
>> #1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
>> #2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
>> #3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
>> #4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
>> #5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
>> #6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
>> #7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
>> #8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
>> #9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
>> #10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
>> I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP
>
> I'm still unclear what the original poster is trying to get to. Is it some kind of hard decision point where we don't tow the (fill in) 2-33 with 2 people because it is now too heavy?
> There are so many variables to consider.
> 1- Pure tug performance- type, weight, horse power, prop, current engine condition(plugs clean and clear?)etc.
> 2 Tug pilot weight
> 3 Fuel on board
> 4 Surface - Grass(tall or not), soft ground, paved
> 5 Glider mass and drag characteristics.
> 6 Tug pilot technique- Soft takeoff vs "normal", best angle of climb or wait for best rate. Fast acceleration or gentle.
> 7 Glider pilot technique. A dragging skid can hurt more than mass. Wandering student reduces performance.
> 8 Temperature and dew point- density altitude
> 9 Elevation
> 10 Field slope
> 11 Obstructions to consider.
> 12. High tow vs low tow
> 13- Others could add more to this list
> UH

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 8:42:50 AM UTC-5, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> What is your objective?
> UH
I'd like a takeoff distance chart for a Pawnee towing a 2-33, 1-26, and Grob.

On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
> #1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.

Yes

> #2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.

2-33, 1-26, and Grob plus various glass ships

> #3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.

When do you use flaps?

> #4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,

Often gets hotter than 100 deg here in Texas

> #5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.

Agree

> #6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.

Agree

> #7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
> #8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
> #9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
> #10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
> I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP

All good advice

On Saturday, September 9, 2023 at 7:46:47 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> On Friday, September 8, 2023 at 3:25:30 PM UTC-5, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Thursday, September 7, 2023 at 9:44:38 PM UTC-4, Lawrence Spinetta wrote:
> > > Has anyone seen any takeoff distance charts for a Pawnee towing gliders of various weights? My glider club would appreciate any info, data, or insights. Thanks.
> > Lawrence, I will opine on this thread in an effort to inform many current and potential tow pilots of what I consider for all tow pilots to understand and react when necessary.
> > #1- Is the tow plane capable of meeting the requirements to tow.
> Yes
> > #2- What are you towing??? Weight, type of glider? There are times when I tow guys full of water and I as the tow pilot inform them that I am aware of their ballast and I inform them that I will be towing them at a bit more speed. Guess what, they love the fact that as a tow pilot I am cognizant of their excess weight and tow requirements.
> 2-33, 1-26, and Grob plus various glass ships
> > #3- My flap setting in the Pawnee, sometimes I have a click of flaps to facilitate departure and then stay in ground effect to a needed speed then on to a positive rate of climb.
> When do you use flaps?
Flaps for takeoff are an option that I use to enhance getting off the ground in a better attempt to obtain ground effect and increase speed to maintain a positive rate of climb at my desired airspeed. they are retracted at about 300 feet. Depending on what and weight will determine my flap selection..
> > #4- Variables, wind, temp, DA,
> Often gets hotter than 100 deg here in Texas
> > #5- The glider pilot, who are you towing????? This is an often overlooked aspect. Is it someone that I should be concerned about or someone that I have towed many times before and I know their capabilities at that end of the rope.
> Agree
> > #6- Is the tow pilot a glider pilot??? This may be more important than you realize, a TP that flies both ends of the rope just may have a better understanding of any situation that you may encounter.
> Agree
> > #7- What is your mental and physical status at the time of your tow?? As a tow pilot we all have times of variable mood changes based on the current or the past tow. When it is approaching 100 degrees F and you have your butt in the hot Pawnee and the next tow is lingering around the take off line you become irritated, does that affect your tow capability?
> > #8- Identifying a critical situation!!!!!
> > #9- Reaction to a critical situation?????
> > #10- I will call this #10 but actually it should be number 1, the RELEASE? Have you actually tried to get to the release handle in an mock emergency? Why don't you try seeing if you can get to release handle within two seconds, it may just be the best exercise you can practice. Personally, IMHO I think that most tow planes should be re evaluated with regard to the tow release. Have you as a tow pilot practiced a release? Practice enhances muscle memory, it may well save your life.
> > I am sure that there are many very experienced tow pilots out there that can add many more quality points to the list, next time you get a tow from your tow pilot tell him or her thanks, your gratitude will go a long way. OBTP
> All good advice

There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".

1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.

2) A shorter tow rope increases the margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".

3)