There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".

1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.

2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".

3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.

I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
ROY

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
>
> 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
>
> 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
>
> 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
>
> I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> ROY
Roy makes some excellent points about towing, after slack takeoff is a great technique for obvious reasons, being cognizant of the rope and cycle requirements can eliminate coat and release replacement. 99.9% of my tows are done on grass and we have changed from that yellow nylon to a white Dacron type rope from Wings and Wheels, it has tripled the life of our tow ropes.
A few more words about, "Who Are You Towing", I have a request from every new glider pilot that I tow, this comes from some first hand experience and events. Tow pilots are always eager to tow a new glider pilot on their solo flight, yet please be aware, you may not get what you expect. I have even recently had a very uncomfortable tow experience from a first time solo pilot.
Prior to each first time solo I make time to discuss what is expected during the tow, prior to takeoff I have the solo pilot acknowledge to ne over the radio that his or her canopy is locked and that the spoilers are stowed and locked. I also inform the solo pilot that I will be extending my straight out departure to a higher than usual altitude rather than turning after our normal departure altitude. My feeling is that it increases confidence for the glider pilot to stay in the slot as I call it rather than being all over the sky. YES!!! I have had more than one student pilot panic on their solo flight, it happened last week.
Hopefully some of this information in this thread is helpful to all tow pilots, others like myself take part in soaring to help others get into the sky and enjoy flying their gliders. Next time you hop in your glider and ask for a tow please say to yourself, I am going to fly a great tow, and when you release tell that tow pilot THANKS FOR THE TOW! Old Bob The Purist

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
>
> 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
>
> 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
>
> 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
>
> I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> ROY

ROY makes a couple of useful points.
Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
UH

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> >
> > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> >
> > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> >
> > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> >
> > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > ROY
> ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> UH

Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.

"DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > >
> > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > >
> > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > >
> > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > >
> > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > ROY
> > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > UH
> Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life.. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
>
> "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
>
> Walt Connelly
> Former Tow Pilot
Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP

On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol..com wrote:
> > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > >
> > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop.. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > >
> > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > >
> > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug.. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > >
> > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > ROY
> > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > UH
> > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> >
> > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > Former Tow Pilot
> Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP

Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.

Walt Connelly
FORMER tow pilot.

On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > >
> > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > >
> > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > ROY
> > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > UH
> > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > >
> > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > Former Tow Pilot
> > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
>
> Walt Connelly
> FORMER tow pilot.

I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
or
2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.

I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.

Tom 2G

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > ROY
> > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > UH
> > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > >
> > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > >
> > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> >
> > Walt Connelly
> > FORMER tow pilot.
> I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> or
> 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
>
> I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
>
> Tom 2G
Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco....@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > UH
> > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > >
> > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either..
> > >
> > > Walt Connelly
> > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > or
> > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> >
> > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> >
> > Tom 2G
> Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home.. Old Bob, The Purist
Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco....@aol.com wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it..
> > > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both.. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> > > >
> > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > > or
> > > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> > >
> > > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> > >
> > > Tom 2G
> > Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> > My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist
> Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.
Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist

it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist

Yeah, I remember telling my instructor that learning to aerotow would be a lot easier if the damn tow pilot would put a bit more effort in trying to stay in front of the glider.

Kind of like trying to tow a glider trailer in a stiff cross wind with a car that is too small and light. If the trailer changes lanes, try to stay in front of it.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco....@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing.. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> > > > >
> > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > > > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > > > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > > > or
> > > > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > > > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> > > >
> > > > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> > > >
> > > > Tom 2G
> > > Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> > > My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist
> > Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.
> Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist
I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...

First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 5:00:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's.. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > > > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > > > > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > > > > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > > > > or
> > > > > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > > > > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom 2G
> > > > Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> > > > My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.
> > Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist
> I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
>
> First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
> Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
>
> Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
> - use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
> - use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
> - use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
>
> How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 5:00:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's.. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > > > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > > > > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > > > > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > > > > or
> > > > > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > > > > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tom 2G
> > > > Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> > > > My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.
> > Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist
> I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
>
> First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
> Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
>
> Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
> - use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
> - use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
> - use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
>
> How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
Eric, I would never instruct, I am smarter than that. I do tow more than most and most of my tows are for training flights, no, the glider does not respond slowly, an out of position glider can kill you in two seconds. There is no BIG SECRET, just good execution will make the tow pilot a nicer guy or girl. I rarely see students conquer the tow in very few flights, and I have seen a student take over 150 flights to solo. I thought I was going to buy the farm last week on a first solo, it was damn right ugly, the glider pilot needs to be flying a motorglider so that he doesn't take the life of the tow pilot. It is unfortunate that you downplay the skill required to stay behind the tow plane. Remember, "Don't Kill The Tow Pilot"! Old Bob, The Purist

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:03:05 PM UTC-7, Hank Nixon wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 5:00:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home.. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > > > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > > > > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > > > > > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > > > > > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > > > > > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model.. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom 2G
> > > > > Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> > > > > My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.
> > > Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist
> > I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
> >
> > First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
> > Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
> >
> > Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
> > - use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
> > - use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
> > - use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
> >
> > How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
> My experience is that most students master the tow in about 10 flights. It takes time to develop the sense of position and timing.
> It has little to do with big secrets. It takes a few flights to get it. I have seen some hold position on the first try but that is rare.
> UH
Ten flights to "master" the tow seems reasonable. That's more advanced than just being able to follow the tow plane. And the secrets aren't really secrets, except for the new student, who tend to overcontrol at first, in part from nervousness, and because they don't realize the glider is inherently stable.

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:34:14 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 5:00:49 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 12:42:39 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 9:45:27 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 3:43:09 AM UTC-7, rec.aviation.soaring wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 1:25:11 AM UTC-4, 2G wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:03:45 AM UTC-7, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 4:07:39 PM UTC-4, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Tuesday, September 12, 2023 at 8:20:16 AM UTC-4, waltco...@aol.com wrote:
> > > > > > > > > On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 9:02:55 AM UTC-4, Hank Nixon wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:27:14 PM UTC-4, Roy B. wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > There is a lot of good advice in this thread - especially for new tow pilots. If I may, I would like to add a couple of points that have not been mentioned. All have "pros" and "cons".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 1) There is a technique (after slack is out) of adding power with the tug brakes held on and then releasing the brakes after rpms come up. This increases the initial acceleration of both aircraft and thus somewhat shortens the take off distance. It also gets air moving over the glider ailerons earlier. But, it should only be used on a paved runway. On grass it quickly pulls up the top soil and on dirt it causes nicks in the tow plane prop. It also will cause the 2-33 tail to slam down (especially with a lightweight pilot). I use the technique when I am retrieving a glider from a landout at an airport and doing an unassisted (wing down) take off.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 2) A shorter tow rope increases the takeoff margins ( by giving the tug a bit more runway to use) at the expense of a bit more drama and difficulty for the glider pilot. It also increases the dust/visibility problem for the glider pilot on dirt. I have intentionally tied a 60' loop in a 200' rope for some marginal air retrieves. "Not for beginners".
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > 3) Old Bob's point about familiarity with the tow rope release a very important. It should be noted that many places use 2 ropes for operations and have the tug pilot drop the rope either shortly before or immediately after landing. This solves the familiarity problem ( the rope is released after every tow) and it also avoids abrading the rope by dragging it on the ground. When this method is used the awaiting glider is already connected to the new rope and the tug taxis back to have that rope connect to the tug. It speeds things up a little too. The disadvantage is if you are using a cycle limited tow hook ( like the Tost) because it puts a lot of actuation cycles on the towplane hook quickly.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > I am not advocating any of the forgoing - just trying to add to a page that I think has some good information for new tow pilots in it.
> > > > > > > > > > > ROY
> > > > > > > > > > ROY makes a couple of useful points.
> > > > > > > > > > Fore newer tug pilots looking for pointers I would comment.
> > > > > > > > > > 1)Hard brake holding while powering up can get a bit more acceleration which helps height at the end of the runway. As Roy points out this can, and almost certainly will, result in a hard tail bang on 2-33's. This will have a bad effect on the life of the tailwheel spring and, if no spring will ultimately cause failure in the aft longerons . We have seen both. Care should be taken in this situation.
> > > > > > > > > > 2) If you think you need to shorten the rope to get out of the land out spot, go get the trailer. Short ropes are a big contributor to the possibility of a tug upset.
> > > > > > > > > > UH
> > > > > > > > > Some very good information and it is laudable that any facility is proactively trying to protect their tow pilots. I would add one thing. The tow pilot should be proactive in insuring that each new student know that if they lose sight of the tow plane they should RELEASE IMMEDIATELY. Not every instructor is doing an adequate job of driving that point home.. It's YOUR life. I would also prohibit any student at any level from having their cell phone with them on solo. Too much temptation to do a video while on tow. Additionally I would insist on release handles up where the tow pilot can reach them easily and tow hooks changed to more modern and dependable upon release types.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT," should be the mantra of every Gliderport. Of course saying that might inflame the panties and easily offended sensibilities of some, but F 'em. The tow pilot might do well to remind each "instructor" of this point considering the last two tow pilots deaths were at the hands of an instructor level pilot to some degree. No GoPROs and no reaching for the canopy on tow, the life you save may be the tow pilots.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > > > Former Tow Pilot
> > > > > > > > Walt, your remarks are right on!!!! Many instructors do not fly both ends of the rope, nothing wrong with that and on the other hand many tow pilots don't instruct, we are smarter than that. Your remarks in reference to my tow release have been much appreciated, nothing like enchasing the safety of the tow pilot. Your statement about , "DON'T KILL THE TOW PILOT", should be one of the first directives driven into the mind of every student.
> > > > > > > > After a few thousand tows I have decided to pretty much cut back and enjoy my glider flying, and if you are ever down this way hop in the Pawnee and give be a tow, I want to give all these motorglider guys something to shoot for. OBTP
> > > > > > > Ain't gonna happen anytime soon Bob, I'm current only in a Helicopter but thanks for the invite. I lived thru 7000 tows and almost died in one of my last. I like not having to get out of bed until I damn well please every day, retirement is nice. I didn't instruct because I knew I didn't have the proper personality and I find many working instructors who don't either.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Walt Connelly
> > > > > > > FORMER tow pilot.
> > > > > > I am not a tow pilot and never will be a tow pilot, but what I read here is either:
> > > > > > 1. A pissing contest to prove the others don't know shit.
> > > > > > or
> > > > > > 2. A multi-dimensional data analysis problem.
> > > > > > In the first case you just ignore the poster and move on; in the second case (in my former professional life) we would engage a statistician to analyze all of the relevant data to build a workable scientific model.. The first part of this is gathering the data (UGH, that is a lot of work!). Then, you have to find a competent statistician to do the analysis.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I don't think anybody here will get past the first part.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Tom 2G
> > > > > Since you do NOT tow, and want to opine on the topic in which you know nothing about that makes you an untracrepidarian in a profound way. Tow pilots like myself and others who have done thousands of tows and are much more qualified to make professional remarks and develop guidelines on the subject.
> > > > > My suggestion to you would be for you to stick to something that you are at least qualified to comment on. Most people that cannot stay behind the tow plane go straight to motorgliding, looks like you found the perfect home. Old Bob, The Purist
> > > > Being towed is a lot easier than launching in a motorglider, and arguably safer (at least for the glider pilot, but not the tow pilot). When I was instructing, it only took a few flights for a student to learn to fly the whole tow. I doubt I could teach a student to fly a self-launch as quickly. It'd be fun to try, though. Please read my "A Guide to Operating Self-launching Sailplanes" for a detailed explanation.
> > > Eric, that last comment really made me laugh, I find it laughable to compare self launching to staying behind the tow plane in a pure glider. I make over a thousand tows a year, about 75% or more are training flights and it takes more than just a few flights to teach someone how to stay behind the tow plane. Old Bob, The Purist
> > I thought you said you didn't instruct? Or is that what the instructors in your club tell you? Anyway, my students were not ready to solo or to handle tow emergencies after a few flights, but it didn't take them long to learn towing basics, which are...
> >
> > First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
> > Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
> >
> > Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
> > - use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
> > - use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
> > - use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
> >
> > How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
> Eric, I would never instruct, I am smarter than that. I do tow more than most and most of my tows are for training flights, no, the glider does not respond slowly, an out of position glider can kill you in two seconds. There is no BIG SECRET, just good execution will make the tow pilot a nicer guy or girl. I rarely see students conquer the tow in very few flights, and I have seen a student take over 150 flights to solo. I thought I was going to buy the farm last week on a first solo, it was damn right ugly, the glider pilot needs to be flying a motorglider so that he doesn't take the life of the tow pilot. It is unfortunate that you downplay the skill required to stay behind the tow plane. Remember, "Don't Kill The Tow Pilot"! Old Bob, The Purist
Even the newest student understands that pushing the stick to an extreme and holding it there is a doomsday maneuver. My "responds slowly" refers to fast stick motions that can be described as "wiggling". They are too quick for the glider to respond, and often the student isn't even aware of the furious "pot stirring" they are doing. Having them hold the stick still, then watching the glider calm down and follow the tow plane almost by itself, was an eye opener for most of them. The inherent stability of the glider is not obvious to the novice pilot.

"use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"

- I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
horizon then corrects itself, slowly.

On 9/19/2023 5:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> ...
> First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
> Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
>
> Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
> - use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
> - use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
> - use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
>
> How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
>

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 6:02:45 PM UTC-7, Moshe Braner wrote:
> "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
> I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
> On 9/19/2023 5:00 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > ...
> > First things First: The glider responds slowly, so move the stick deliberately. Please don't wiggle it all over the place!
> > Second, the BIG SECRET: If you hold the stick approximately centered, the glider will settle down in about the right place (you are not balancing a broom on the palm of your hand - it's stable system if you give it a chance)
> >
> > Then, point the glider at the tow plane...
> > - use the ailerons to keep the wing parallel to the tow plane wing
> > - use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon
> > - use the rudder to point the nose at the tow plane
> >
> > How long does it take Treasure Coast students to learn to point the glider at the tow plane?
> >
I now recall that is what I told them, as that is "pointing the nose at the tow plane". I agree that "Positioning the tow plane on the horizon" would lead to over correction. It's been 26 years since I quit instructing, and I'm sure there is some rust 8^)

On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
> I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
....
> >

Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.

Rich L.

On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> > - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
> > I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> > right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> > horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
> ...
> > >
>
> Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
> cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
>
> Rich L.
It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP

On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> > > - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
> > > I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> > > right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> > > horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
> > ...
> > > >
> >
> > Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
> > cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
> >
> > Rich L.
> It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.

I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.

Eric

On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> > > > - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots. What
> > > > I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> > > > right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> > > > horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
> > > ...
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
> > > cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
> > >
> > > Rich L.
> > It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
> Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
>
> I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
>
> Eric
Eric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane, just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTP

On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 1:04:25 PM UTC-7, youngbl...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 7:27:31 PM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:27:51 AM UTC-7, youngbl....@gmail.com wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, September 20, 2023 at 10:10:43 AM UTC-4, Richard Livingston wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, September 19, 2023 at 8:02:45 PM UTC-5, Moshe Braner wrote:
> > > > > "use the elevator to position the tow plane on the horizon"
> > > > > - I find that that leads to over-correction by the student pilots.. What
> > > > > I tell them is to "use the elevator to position the tow plane in the
> > > > > right spot in the windshield/canopy". The position relative to the
> > > > > horizon then corrects itself, slowly.
> > > > ...
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Finally discovering that secret was what enabled me to finally tow
> > > > cleanly. Nobody ever told me, I had to stumble on this myself.
> > > >
> > > > Rich L.
> > > It was a SECRET, and you found it. OBTP
> > Told you! You gotta tell the student the SECRET, which is using the elevator and rudder to point a spot on the canopy at the tow plane, then using the ailerons to match the glider wing (the bank) with the tow plane wing. Learn to that, and you can fly entire tow from rope attachment to rope release even do wing down, unassisted takeoffs. You need more training to be solo ready, but hey! That's great progress that doesn't take a lot of flights to learn.
> >
> > I've only trained students in a Blanik L-13, and other gliders might not be as docile, and require a slightly different approach.
> >
> > Eric
> Eric, the SECRET is that Elvis is not at a pizza parlor in Detroit, he might just be flying his motorglider somewhere near Memphis while he sings Amazing Grace. I love how all you instructors come up with these theories on how to follow the towplane, just put that dot on the window and all is good, I am going to call BS on that theory. OBTP
It's not just me and Moshe, Old Bob, but also ... (wait for it) ... the 1989 Joy of Soaring [rimshot ]put out by the SSA (page 28): "The third, and preferred, technique is to keep the towplane in a fixed position on the glider's windshield. ... In effect, the glider pilot aligns two points in the glider upon the towplane, ... thus aiming the glider at the towplane." [2nd rimshot]

Now, there are TWO things you should read: "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" and "The Joy of Soaring". You are probably still busy with towing and all, but summer's almost gone, yes, and winter's comin' on, so you'll have those long, dark evenings to catch up on some this stuff.

I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.

On Thursday, September 21, 2023 at 9:52:19 PM UTC-4, George Haeh wrote:
> I'm waiting for one of the eminent instructors here to reveal the simple SECRET for following the tow plane when it's turning.

This eminent instructor thinks that this topic has gone off the rails.
UH