"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ucj40a$1rtml$1@dont-email.me...

I don't know if noise would be an issue on a thermo couple wire. Would
induced noise/voltage affect the reading of the thermister?

----------------------

A thermocouple is simply two wires of different alloys welded together at
the sensing end. Iron and copper wire produce a temperature dependent
voltage and both are used, but paired with other special alloys such as
constantan, copper + nickel, to give a higher voltage that changes more
linearly with temperature. The signal level is millivolts, at low impedance.
http://sparkbangbuzz.com/thermocouple/thermocouple.htm
Many good ideas there.

The instruments that read them usually have high rejection for common-mode
interference (the same on both wires) from adjacent power lines or
electrical leakage into the heated metal being sensed. In my case the wood
stove's metal chimney is grounded because I've heard a spark jump from it
during a thunderstorm.

They gain some immunity from normal-mode interference (voltage difference)
because the impedance is very low, it's just a shorted loop of wire, whereas
a thermistor may have a resistance of thousands of Ohms.

They are simple to make with a spot welder or acetylene torch, relatively
low cost and some (mine) are able to operate in flame at 2000F or more.

On 8/28/2023 9:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucj40a$1rtml$1@dont-email.me...
>
> I don't know if noise would be an issue on a thermo couple wire.  Would
> induced noise/voltage affect the reading of the thermister?
>
> ----------------------
>
> A thermocouple is simply two wires of different alloys welded together
> at the sensing end. Iron and copper wire produce a temperature dependent
> voltage and both are used, but paired with other special alloys such as
> constantan, copper + nickel, to give a higher voltage that changes more
> linearly with temperature. The signal level is millivolts, at low
> impedance.
> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/thermocouple/thermocouple.htm
> Many good ideas there.
>
> The instruments that read them usually have high rejection for
> common-mode interference (the same on both wires) from adjacent power
> lines or electrical leakage into the heated metal being sensed. In my
> case the wood stove's metal chimney is grounded because I've heard a
> spark jump from it during a thunderstorm.
>
> They gain some immunity from normal-mode interference (voltage
> difference) because the impedance is very low, it's just a shorted loop
> of wire, whereas a thermistor may have a resistance of thousands of Ohms.
>
> They are simple to make with a spot welder or acetylene torch,
> relatively low cost and some (mine) are able to operate in flame at
> 2000F or more.
>
>

I have a couple of type K's that I use occasionally to check the temp
in my forge and my foundry furnace . I've seen up to IIRC 2300 or so
when melting brass/bronzes .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

"Snag" wrote in message news:ucjq4r$23bpt$1@dont-email.me...

I have a couple of type K's that I use occasionally to check the temp
in my forge and my foundry furnace . I've seen up to IIRC 2300 or so
when melting brass/bronzes .
Snag

------------------------
The TM-902C is an inexpensive display for Type K. It doesn't quite reach
hardening temperature for steel but it's good for tempering. Multiple meters
don't load down the signal, I have four on the stove box thermocouple, to
show when to go down and feed it. The TP4000ZC multimeter can record Type K
temperature readings on a computer, for instance the cycling times and
temperature range of your refrigerator or water heater and how long a
camping cooler will keep food safe.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/295762489088?chn=ps

On 8/28/2023 7:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucj40a$1rtml$1@dont-email.me...
>
> I don't know if noise would be an issue on a thermo couple wire.  Would
> induced noise/voltage affect the reading of the thermister?
>
> ----------------------
>
> A thermocouple is simply two wires of different alloys welded together
> at the sensing end. Iron and copper wire produce a temperature dependent
> voltage and both are used, but paired with other special alloys such as
> constantan, copper + nickel, to give a higher voltage that changes more
> linearly with temperature. The signal level is millivolts, at low
> impedance.
> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/thermocouple/thermocouple.htm
> Many good ideas there.
>
> The instruments that read them usually have high rejection for
> common-mode interference (the same on both wires) from adjacent power
> lines or electrical leakage into the heated metal being sensed. In my
> case the wood stove's metal chimney is grounded because I've heard a
> spark jump from it during a thunderstorm.
>
> They gain some immunity from normal-mode interference (voltage
> difference) because the impedance is very low, it's just a shorted loop
> of wire, whereas a thermistor may have a resistance of thousands of Ohms.
>
> They are simple to make with a spot welder or acetylene torch,
> relatively low cost and some (mine) are able to operate in flame at
> 2000F or more.
>
>

Of course. I can only blame a brain fart, or being in a rush to share
what I consider to be the most important cliff notes about low voltage
residential/commercial wiring. Yeah, more likely just a brain fart.

I could probably put together a half dozen lectures on the subject and
not cover even the limited set of everything I know or have learned from
experience about running communication wire, and I am now almost 7 years
out of date.

One of the things I was always aware of is that people might in the
future put higher demands on the wire I ran than its original intended
purpose. For example. I once got a call to set up a temporary cable
network for registration in a high school building (cafeteria or gym, I
forget) with no network cable. Aerial and underground work were out of
the question due to both time and cost. I found an unused telco with a
Cat3 twist, found it would run 10mbps, and I strung some extra cable.
When I was done it cable radared (Penta Scanner) at around 580 feet.
Ethernet is only supposed to run 100 meters, and often it fails at
higher speeds at not much over 100meters unless you run a hub or switch
in between to divide the distance, or run fiber and a fiber translator
due to timing issues. Basic multimode is rock solid to about 1.2
kilometers. Any, way putting a 10mbps ONLY mini hub in the room and
hooking all the registration computers to that I got them up and
running. I told their IT guy it would be slow, but since they were only
sending simple data (mostly text records) it should be usable. Later I
asked him how it worked out. He said there were no complaints. Not
even about the speed. Obviously Cat3 is not rated for the same
applications as Cat5/5e/6 etc, but who ever installed it did a good job
and it passed 10mbps tests with a Penta Scanner (except that it failed
distance), and it worked. It was originally intended only for a basic
digital key phone system. I did a lot of work for them over the years.
I usually had 6 or 7 open purchase orders for them for different
schools. That wasn't even my best "schools" client.

One guy I worked for years (30 maybe) ago would always pull an extra
wire whenever he pulled a wire for anything. It made him seem like a
miracle worker sometimes. He'd send me on an emergency "add one" more
and tell me exactly where I would find an extra wire above a ceiling or
in a panel.

Whenever I had commercial clients (schools, warehouses, manufacturers,
etc) add buildings to a campus I'd tell them run conduits for everything
you think you might need, and then add an extra 2 inch conduit that will
remain empty. You or your replacement will appreciate it being there.
It will saves you thousands down the road over what it costs to just do
it now. It did. Many times. Sometimes before they finished the new
building.

Oh, and always try to vacuum a pull string through an empty conduit
first before you try to blow it, if it doesn't already have one.
Blowing mud and dirt all over somebody's office is bad form. What I
would do if I had to blow it was have a helper keep a vacuum over the
other end.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 8/28/2023 8:54 PM, Snag wrote:
> On 8/28/2023 9:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucj40a$1rtml$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>> I don't know if noise would be an issue on a thermo couple wire.  Would
>> induced noise/voltage affect the reading of the thermister?
>>
>> ----------------------
>>
>> A thermocouple is simply two wires of different alloys welded together
>> at the sensing end. Iron and copper wire produce a temperature
>> dependent voltage and both are used, but paired with other special
>> alloys such as constantan, copper + nickel, to give a higher voltage
>> that changes more linearly with temperature. The signal level is
>> millivolts, at low impedance.
>> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/thermocouple/thermocouple.htm
>> Many good ideas there.
>>
>> The instruments that read them usually have high rejection for
>> common-mode interference (the same on both wires) from adjacent power
>> lines or electrical leakage into the heated metal being sensed. In my
>> case the wood stove's metal chimney is grounded because I've heard a
>> spark jump from it during a thunderstorm.
>>
>> They gain some immunity from normal-mode interference (voltage
>> difference) because the impedance is very low, it's just a shorted
>> loop of wire, whereas a thermistor may have a resistance of thousands
>> of Ohms.
>>
>> They are simple to make with a spot welder or acetylene torch,
>> relatively low cost and some (mine) are able to operate in flame at
>> 2000F or more.
>>
>>
>
>   I have a couple of type K's that I use occasionally to check the temp
> in my forge and my foundry furnace . I've seen up to IIRC 2300 or so
> when melting brass/bronzes .

I may hit you up down the road on that. I was thinking about maybe
someday making aluminum bronze. I have a shelf full of old burned up
motors out back of the shop to maybe someday do something like that
with. Metal is expensive these days. I hardly throw any of it away
anymore.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ucl88d$2bbs9$1@dont-email.me...

I could probably put together a half dozen lectures on the subject and
not cover even the limited set of everything I know or have learned from
experience about running communication wire, and I am now almost 7 years
out of date.

One of the things I was always aware of is that people might in the
future put higher demands on the wire I ran than its original intended
purpose. For example. I once got a call to set up a temporary cable
network for registration in a high school building (cafeteria or gym, I
forget) with no network cable. Aerial and underground work were out of
the question due to both time and cost. I found an unused telco with a
Cat3 twist, found it would run 10mbps, and I strung some extra cable.
When I was done it cable radared (Penta Scanner) at around 580 feet.
Ethernet is only supposed to run 100 meters, and often it fails at
higher speeds at not much over 100meters unless you run a hub or switch
in between to divide the distance, or run fiber and a fiber translator
due to timing issues. Basic multimode is rock solid to about 1.2
kilometers. Any, way putting a 10mbps ONLY mini hub in the room and
hooking all the registration computers to that I got them up and
running. I told their IT guy it would be slow, but since they were only
sending simple data (mostly text records) it should be usable. Later I
asked him how it worked out. He said there were no complaints. Not
even about the speed. Obviously Cat3 is not rated for the same
applications as Cat5/5e/6 etc, but who ever installed it did a good job
and it passed 10mbps tests with a Penta Scanner (except that it failed
distance), and it worked. It was originally intended only for a basic
digital key phone system. I did a lot of work for them over the years.
I usually had 6 or 7 open purchase orders for them for different
schools. That wasn't even my best "schools" client.

One guy I worked for years (30 maybe) ago would always pull an extra
wire whenever he pulled a wire for anything. It made him seem like a
miracle worker sometimes. He'd send me on an emergency "add one" more
and tell me exactly where I would find an extra wire above a ceiling or
in a panel.

Whenever I had commercial clients (schools, warehouses, manufacturers,
etc) add buildings to a campus I'd tell them run conduits for everything
you think you might need, and then add an extra 2 inch conduit that will
remain empty. You or your replacement will appreciate it being there.
It will saves you thousands down the road over what it costs to just do
it now. It did. Many times. Sometimes before they finished the new
building.

Oh, and always try to vacuum a pull string through an empty conduit
first before you try to blow it, if it doesn't already have one.
Blowing mud and dirt all over somebody's office is bad form. What I
would do if I had to blow it was have a helper keep a vacuum over the
other end.
Bob La Londe

-------------------------------

Thanks. My conduit experience is limited to within machines for auto
factories, required to protect UAW fork lift drivers from electrocution when
they punctured the machine with the forks. I've used some in the garage and
will need to put solar wiring in conduit once I decide where. Thanks to your
reminder I bought a 1" bender at a flea market, completing my home use set.
I have a wheelbarrow with legs of conduit.

The places I've worked that needed networking always had an IT department to
handle it. They jealously guarded their jobs from the techs who were much
better educated and could have done their work if we had the time. It was
funny to attend an IT security lecture and then watch them crumble under
questions they couldn't answer, not just from me though I was trained in top
level military electronic communications security. I was once flagged for
Googling "chainsaw", a common tool here in NH but a terror weapon in MA.

On 8/29/2023 12:03 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 8/28/2023 8:54 PM, Snag wrote:
>> On 8/28/2023 9:14 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucj40a$1rtml$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>> I don't know if noise would be an issue on a thermo couple wire.  Would
>>> induced noise/voltage affect the reading of the thermister?
>>>
>>> ----------------------
>>>
>>> A thermocouple is simply two wires of different alloys welded
>>> together at the sensing end. Iron and copper wire produce a
>>> temperature dependent voltage and both are used, but paired with
>>> other special alloys such as constantan, copper + nickel, to give a
>>> higher voltage that changes more linearly with temperature. The
>>> signal level is millivolts, at low impedance.
>>> http://sparkbangbuzz.com/thermocouple/thermocouple.htm
>>> Many good ideas there.
>>>
>>> The instruments that read them usually have high rejection for
>>> common-mode interference (the same on both wires) from adjacent power
>>> lines or electrical leakage into the heated metal being sensed. In my
>>> case the wood stove's metal chimney is grounded because I've heard a
>>> spark jump from it during a thunderstorm.
>>>
>>> They gain some immunity from normal-mode interference (voltage
>>> difference) because the impedance is very low, it's just a shorted
>>> loop of wire, whereas a thermistor may have a resistance of thousands
>>> of Ohms.
>>>
>>> They are simple to make with a spot welder or acetylene torch,
>>> relatively low cost and some (mine) are able to operate in flame at
>>> 2000F or more.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>    I have a couple of type K's that I use occasionally to check the
>> temp in my forge and my foundry furnace . I've seen up to IIRC 2300 or
>> so when melting brass/bronzes .
>
> I may hit you up down the road on that.  I was thinking about maybe
> someday making aluminum bronze.  I have a shelf full of old burned up
> motors out back of the shop to maybe someday do something like that
> with.  Metal is expensive these days.  I hardly throw any of it away
> anymore.
>
>

I'm saving the cast aluminum pieces from the Toyota motor I just had
replaced to be melted down ... I seldom pass up a chance to expand my
"scrap" pile . If it's metal , I'm savin' it .
Al bronze is actually easy . Aluminum will dissolve the copper about
as fast as you can add it . But ya gotta jack the temp as you add .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ucl8cs$2bbs9$2@dont-email.me...

I may hit you up down the road on that. I was thinking about maybe
someday making aluminum bronze.

-----------------------------

Good stuff. The earliest use of it I read about was non-rusting firing pins
for the Trapdoor Springfield, a demanding application.

"Snag" wrote in message news:uclr6g$2e21n$1@dont-email.me...

I'm saving the cast aluminum pieces from the Toyota motor I just had
replaced to be melted down ... I seldom pass up a chance to expand my
"scrap" pile . If it's metal , I'm savin' it .
Snag

----------------------

It may be a high silicon alloy similar to this:

https://www.wbcastings.com/non-ferrous-alloys/aluminum/a356/

The silicon creates a very hard surface that substitutes for a steel
cylinder liner.

I made some castings from a scrapped Chevy Vega block but didn't really
understand what I was doing and they came out porous. I poured some of the
excess molten metal into a snowbank where it solidified as shiny teardrops.

On 8/29/2023 5:55 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:uclr6g$2e21n$1@dont-email.me...
>
>   I'm saving the cast aluminum pieces from the Toyota motor I just had
> replaced to be melted down ... I seldom pass up a chance to expand my
> "scrap" pile . If it's metal , I'm savin' it .
> Snag
>
> ----------------------
>
> It may be a high silicon alloy similar to this:
>
> https://www.wbcastings.com/non-ferrous-alloys/aluminum/a356/
>
> The silicon creates a very hard surface that substitutes for a steel
> cylinder liner.
>
> I made some castings from a scrapped Chevy Vega block but didn't really
> understand what I was doing and they came out porous. I poured some of
> the excess molten metal into a snowbank where it solidified as shiny
> teardrops.
>

Was it Vega motors that had the nickasil (sp?) cylinder bores ? If so
that might explain the porosity . I use a propane burner to melt , that
can cause entrapped hydrogen porosity . It comes out of solution as the
metal cools . There are a couple of ways to eliminate that . I use pool
chlorine submerged in the melt followed by a borax-based flux just
before I pour - Electric furnaces don't usually have this problem .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

"Snag" wrote in message news:ucm4g8$2f495$1@dont-email.me...

On 8/29/2023 5:55 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

>
> I made some castings from a scrapped Chevy Vega block but didn't really
> understand what I was doing and they came out porous. I poured some of the
> excess molten metal into a snowbank where it solidified as shiny
> teardrops.
>

Was it Vega motors that had the nickasil (sp?) cylinder bores ? If so
that might explain the porosity . I use a propane burner to melt , that
can cause entrapped hydrogen porosity . It comes out of solution as the
metal cools . There are a couple of ways to eliminate that . I use pool
chlorine submerged in the melt followed by a borax-based flux just
before I pour - Electric furnaces don't usually have this problem .
Snag

------------------

I melted it in the woodstove in uncovered tin cans. The foundry that I
watched as a little kid used natural gas furnaces, set low in the floor to
give clearance for crucible handling. I saw the metal come out but never
watched what went in. I really learned only about making the cope and drag,
in their case with a simplified pattern and details hand-carved to
templates, which eliminated the need for draft and allowed casting reentrant
shapes.

Maybe that's why they got jobs larger outfits passed on. NH used to be
filled with such small shops, most now victims of a "post-industrial"
economy that forgot where its strength came from.

On 8/29/2023 3:01 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucl88d$2bbs9$1@dont-email.me...

> The places I've worked that needed networking always had an IT
> department to handle it. They jealously guarded their jobs from the
> techs who were much better educated and could have done their work if we
> had the time. It was funny to attend an IT security lecture and then
> watch them crumble under questions they couldn't answer, not just from
> me though I was trained in top level military electronic communications
> security. I was once flagged for Googling "chainsaw", a common tool here
> in NH but a terror weapon in MA.

I've had mostly similar experiences with IT personnel even to the point
that some would lie if they felt any part of their image might be
threatened. The exceptions where the really smart guys who had managed
to work their way into a supervisory position.

In college a buddy of mine (pretty smart fella) who had an on again off
again computer service business invited me to come help him put on a
demonstration. He would periodically reserve the meeting room in the
basement of the library for the "Yuma Computer Club" and put a notice in
the newspaper. We were using parallel laplink, and serial null modem
cables to transfer data from PC to PC. No big deal today when you can
transfer gigabyte video files from your cell phone to your PC with blue
tooth, but it was a bid deal back then when network cards were crazy
expensive and many PC users were kids who saved their allowance and
Christmas gift money to buy a second or third generation old used PC so
they could dial up a BBS.

The Yuma Computer Club was real and it was a fiction at the same time.
It did create a social connection between some people who might
otherwise never have met, but my buddy would just call a meeting and
setup a demo for something to get his business face in front of new
people. It was always "open invite, all are welcome, demos will be
done," and there was never any club business like minutes, or votes or
anything like that.

At the meeting where we were doing the PC to PC data transfers on the
cheap this kid name Craig came in with his mom in tow. I think she just
came to make sure it was what it said it was, because I don't recall her
hanging around. Craig sucked up everything we had to teach in seconds
the first time often before we finished explaining it. I could tell we
bored him pretty quickly, but he was polite, listened, and watched as we
finished our demo and let people ask questions. I'm modestly smart. My
buddy is pretty smart. I could tell Craig could suck knowledge out of a
rock.

I didn't run into Craig a lot. I might have seen him on some of the
BBSs, but I don't know what his handle was.

One day not to many years later Craig walks into my office and asks if I
can run network cable. Sure. Its cable. Anything I don't know I can
learn. He says, well I need a licensed contractor to run 200 arcnet
drops in the MCAS Yuma adversary squadron building. We did the job on
schedule, and that's when I bought my first real network cable tester.
Craig was running his own computer business by then and he seemed to
know his way around pretty well. He might have been 17 or 18.

it was a big job for me. $8.5K in 1995. I had net terms from all my
vendors, and I figured we'd have it done in 2 weeks. The job went fine,
there was some question over certification until I handed them
certification reports on a disk and then we submitted to get paid. It
was Craig's job so he was the one who invoiced it. I invoiced him.

The job wasn't to bad except for having to wait for somebody to open the
door to the building every time we came in. The doors were posted no
photography and a few other things, but nobody gave us a second look.
They just opened doors for us. The Russians would have paid dearly for
photos of the chalk boards in some of the rooms. I don't remember the
details of anything that was on the boards, but I do recall some of what
types of data was written. Speeds, air frame G capabilities in various
maneuvers and vectors, etc. Stuff that could be learned from
observation, and theoretical limits both. Honestly I didn't really look
at any of it except to be surprised it was posted in empty meeting rooms.

We didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid. I
had vendors screaming at me to get paid, and one of them cut off my
credit permanently. I was calling Craig regularly. I didn't know if he
played me or what. One day he walks into my office, and tells me he
doesn't know what to do. McDonald Douglas (yes I am naming those sorry
bastards) was just ignoring him. Being a licensed contractor I have one
super power. I can file a lien against the physical property involved
if I don't get paid. We sat down and wrote a polite succinct, and
rather forceful lien notice letter to... The Commandant of the Marine
Corps informing him that one of his contractors was refusing to pay us,
and had been ignoring us for months. We would be filing a lien against
his air station. Now I know we can't foreclose on a us military base,
but we could still file the lien and it would be a huge black eye for
the Marine Corp.

I told Craig if he mailed that letter its likely he would never do
another job for McDonald Douglas, and maybe not for any military
contractor or us military service. He said, it didn't matter if he
couldn't walk into my office and ask for help when he needed it. It
wasn't too long (maybe a week) before Craig came down to my office and
handed me a check. He said he had received it Fed-Ex overnight.

I know what Craig said, but I figured that was a pretty unpleasant
experience. I faced backlash in a couple of my vendor relationships
over it for years. I didn't think I would ever see Craig again. Only a
few years later he calls me up again.

Craig was the head IT guy for a consortium to provide among other things
IT for about 40 schools. He wanted to open purchases orders on dozens
of schools and have me do all their small jobs cabling, maintenance, and
repairs. He's the one who asked me to get that high school registration
center up and running I posted about previously. He was never the least
but threatened by me, and didn't mind me talking with his bosses, or
school administrators if he wasn't handy. I did eventually screw that
up (my fault) for not kissing the ass of a political above him, but well
that happens.

Craig was smart, recognized what others could do, and let them. More so
he didn't seem to let ego get in his way or put unpleasantness off on
the wrong people like many others do. Last I heard from his was a post
card and a phone call from Europe somewhere. He was still working for
the consortium, but all of his work was on a consulting basis and he
would remote in if needed. They had him on a retainer as an independent
consultant.

I ran across a couple others like Craig. Maybe not quite as smart, but
with the right attitude. Herb with Crane Schools (IT for maybe 20
schools), and the guy (I can't recall his name) from Gowan Company.
Maybe because as Gowan got bigger and bigger he had to delegate to
underlings who were like as you described.

One that blew me away in the wrong way was BOSE. I sold them equipment
for their plant in Mexico which I visited once, and I did a big video
surveillance job for their warehouse here in Yuma. The job included
network monitoring capability, but when it came to the point to setup
the DVRs on the network the IT people just refused. They didn't refuse
to cooperate. They refused to allow it on the network. They didn't
understand it, and they wouldn't even listen when I explained unless
they opened up ports or put them in a DMZ there was no outside risk.
(Well unless it was hostile Chinese equipment which it wasn't.) They
just refused. In just a couple minutes they refused to even talk to me.
They were clearly threatened, and I was a bit surprised they didn't
even want to tell me why. They just refused.

I walked up the plant manager's office and explained why I couldn't
finish the job, and that I was invoicing them anyway. I also documented
how his IT people could tie in the equipment for him if they decided to
do their jobs. I gt paid in a timely fashion, and had very few service
calls. I also did a few additional small jobs adding cameras. Nobody in
IT would talk to me at all. LOL.

Yeah, IT guys can act very tribal in a small group or very "everybody is
the enemy as individuals," but those who really know what they are doing
and really can learn whatever they need to don't seem to be. The people
who actually are smart.

--
Bob La Londe
Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
real machinist

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG antivirus software.
www.avg.com

On 8/30/2023 8:15 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
> On 8/29/2023 3:01 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucl88d$2bbs9$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> The places I've worked that needed networking always had an IT
>> department to handle it. They jealously guarded their jobs from the
>> techs who were much better educated and could have done their work if
>> we had the time. It was funny to attend an IT security lecture and
>> then watch them crumble under questions they couldn't answer, not just
>> from me though I was trained in top level military electronic
>> communications security. I was once flagged for Googling "chainsaw", a
>> common tool here in NH but a terror weapon in MA.
>
> I've had mostly similar experiences with IT personnel even to the point
> that some would lie if they felt any part of their image might be
> threatened.  The exceptions where the really smart guys who had managed
> to work their way into a supervisory position.
>
> In college a buddy of mine (pretty smart fella) who had an on again off
> again computer service business invited me to come help him put on a
> demonstration.  He would periodically reserve the meeting room in the
> basement of the library for the "Yuma Computer Club" and put a notice in
> the newspaper.  We were using parallel laplink, and serial null modem
> cables to transfer data from PC to PC.  No big deal today when you can
> transfer gigabyte video files from your cell phone to your PC with blue
> tooth, but it was a bid deal back then when network cards were crazy
> expensive and many PC users were kids who saved their allowance and
> Christmas gift money to buy a second or third generation old used PC so
> they could dial up a BBS.
>
> The Yuma Computer Club was real and it was a fiction at the same time.
> It did create a social connection between some people who might
> otherwise never have met, but my buddy would just call a meeting and
> setup a demo for something to get his business face in front of new
> people.  It was always "open invite, all are welcome, demos will be
> done," and there was never any club business like minutes, or votes or
> anything like that.
>
> At the meeting where we were doing the PC to PC data transfers on the
> cheap this kid name Craig came in with his mom in tow.  I think she just
> came to make sure it was what it said it was, because I don't recall her
> hanging around.  Craig sucked up everything we had to teach in seconds
> the first time often before we finished explaining it.  I could tell we
> bored him pretty quickly, but he was polite, listened, and watched as we
> finished our demo and let people ask questions.  I'm modestly smart.  My
> buddy is pretty smart.  I could tell Craig could suck knowledge out of a
> rock.
>
> I didn't run into Craig a lot.  I might have seen him on some of the
> BBSs, but I don't know what his handle was.
>
> One day not to many years later Craig walks into my office and asks if I
> can run network cable.  Sure. Its cable.  Anything I don't know I can
> learn.  He says, well I need a licensed contractor to run 200 arcnet
> drops in the MCAS Yuma adversary squadron building.  We did the job on
> schedule, and that's when I bought my first real network cable tester.
> Craig was running his own computer business by then and he seemed to
> know his way around pretty well.  He might have been 17 or 18.
>
> it was a big job for me.   $8.5K in 1995.  I had net terms from all my
> vendors, and I figured we'd have it done in 2 weeks.  The job went fine,
> there was some question over certification until I handed them
> certification reports on a disk and then we submitted to get paid.  It
> was Craig's job so he was the one who invoiced it. I invoiced him.
>
> The job wasn't to bad except for having to wait for somebody to open the
> door to the building every time we came in.  The doors were posted no
> photography and a few other things, but nobody gave us a second look.
> They just opened doors for us.  The Russians would have paid dearly for
> photos of the chalk boards in some of the rooms. I don't remember the
> details of anything that was on the boards, but I do recall some of what
> types of data was written.  Speeds, air frame G capabilities in various
> maneuvers and vectors, etc.  Stuff that could be learned from
> observation, and theoretical limits both.  Honestly I didn't really look
> at any of it except to be surprised it was posted in empty meeting rooms.
>
> We didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid. I
> had vendors screaming at me to get paid, and one of them cut off my
> credit permanently.  I was calling Craig regularly.  I didn't know if he
> played me or what.  One day he walks into my office, and tells me he
> doesn't know what to do.  McDonald Douglas (yes I am naming those sorry
> bastards) was just ignoring him.  Being a licensed contractor I have one
> super power.  I can file a lien against the physical property involved
> if I don't get paid.  We sat down and wrote a polite succinct, and
> rather forceful lien notice letter to...   The Commandant of the Marine
> Corps informing him that one of his contractors was refusing to pay us,
> and had been ignoring us for months.  We would be filing a lien against
> his air station.  Now I know we can't foreclose on a us military base,
> but we could still file the lien and it would be a huge black eye for
> the Marine Corp.
>
> I told Craig if he mailed that letter its likely he would never do
> another job for McDonald Douglas, and maybe not for any military
> contractor or us military service.  He said, it didn't matter if he
> couldn't walk into my office and ask for help when he needed it.  It
> wasn't too long (maybe a week) before Craig came down to my office and
> handed me a check.  He said he had received it Fed-Ex overnight.
>
> I know what Craig said, but I figured that was a pretty unpleasant
> experience.  I faced backlash in a couple of my vendor relationships
> over it for years.  I didn't think I would ever see Craig again.  Only a
> few years later he calls me up again.
>
> Craig was the head IT guy for a consortium to provide among other things
> IT for about 40 schools.  He wanted to open purchases orders on dozens
> of schools and have me do all their small jobs cabling, maintenance, and
> repairs.  He's the one who asked me to get that high school registration
> center up and running I posted about previously.  He was never the least
> but threatened by me, and didn't mind me talking with his bosses, or
> school administrators if he wasn't handy.  I did eventually screw that
> up (my fault) for not kissing the ass of a political above him, but well
> that happens.
>
> Craig was smart, recognized what others could do, and let them.  More so
> he didn't seem to let ego get in his way or put unpleasantness off on
> the wrong people like many others do.  Last I heard from his was a post
> card and a phone call from Europe somewhere.  He was still working for
> the consortium, but all of his work was on a consulting basis and he
> would remote in if needed.  They had him on a retainer as an independent
> consultant.
>
> I ran across a couple others like Craig.  Maybe not quite as smart, but
> with the right attitude.  Herb with Crane Schools (IT for maybe 20
> schools), and the guy (I can't recall his name) from Gowan Company.
> Maybe because as Gowan got bigger and bigger he had to delegate to
> underlings who were like as you described.
>
> One that blew me away in the wrong way was BOSE.  I sold them equipment
> for their plant in Mexico which I visited once, and I did a big video
> surveillance job for their warehouse here in Yuma.  The job included
> network monitoring capability, but when it came to the point to setup
> the DVRs on the network the IT people just refused.  They didn't refuse
> to cooperate.  They refused to allow it on the network.  They didn't
> understand it, and they wouldn't even listen when I explained unless
> they opened up ports or put them in a DMZ there was no outside risk.
> (Well unless it was hostile Chinese equipment which it wasn't.)  They
> just refused.  In just a couple minutes they refused to even talk to me.
>  They were clearly threatened, and I was a bit surprised they didn't
> even want to tell me why. They just refused.
>
> I walked up the plant manager's office and explained why I couldn't
> finish the job, and that I was invoicing them anyway.  I also documented
> how his IT people could tie in the equipment for him if they decided to
> do their jobs.  I gt paid in a timely fashion, and had very few service
> calls.  I also did a few additional small jobs adding cameras. Nobody in
> IT would talk to me at all.  LOL.
>
> Yeah, IT guys can act very tribal in a small group or very "everybody is
> the enemy as individuals," but those who really know what they are doing
> and really can learn whatever they need to don't seem to be.  The people
> who actually are smart.
>

>"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ucnne9$2pk7k$1@dont-email.me... ...

That's quite a story, fortunately I don't have any to match that level. At
several places IT and I came to an agreement that I wouldn't mess with
networked computers and they would let me run my own standalones and small
local network without interference. One standalone would act as though you
had just plugged a board in hot if you touched a certain control. It was
meant to test an IC in development that would permit that. One problem is
the new board's uncharged capacitors momentarily shorting the power supply.
We also helped develop Power Over Ethernet.

When a networked computer with an easy administrative password that the
production crew used for shopping during lunch became too corrupted for IT
to clean they declared it standalone and let me do the job. It controlled a
critical battery test station, the programmer had quit, and no one had a
copy of the code.

Kelly Johnson felt the same way about the Navy, so Lockheed dealt only with
the Army Air Corps and then the USAF.

Mitre was created as a private non-profit to at least partly isolate
engineers doing Government work from Government interference.
https://www.mitre.org/sites/default/files/2023-02/FFRDCs-A-Primer.pdf
"Government agencies recognized the need to maintain and take advantage of a
critical mass of
science and technology knowledge not otherwise available in the standard
civil-service environment."
---to say it politely.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/german-english/bose

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ucnne9$2pk7k$1@dont-email.me...

>...No big deal today when you can transfer gigabyte video files from your
>cell phone to your PC with blue tooth, but it was a bid deal back then when
>network cards were crazy expensive and many PC users were kids who saved
>their allowance and Christmas gift money to buy a second or third
>generation old used PC so they could dial up a BBS.

I still haven't bought a brand new computer and use USB3 on an ExpressCard
to transfer the TV video recordings to multi-terabyte drives. These older
Dell laptops run Win7 for its HDTV tuner compatible Media Center and take a
second 1TB drive for the recordings in the expansion bay, while booting from
an SSD. Although the recordings are mainly concerts, musicals, operas etc
I'm security conscious enough to not broadcast them on WiFi. Cable company
mail and phone ad spam is bad enough without them knowing what I watch. They
drive around monitoring for signal leakage and who knows what else. Maybe
like in Britain they monitor the IF frequency to see what you are watching.
I told you I was in communications security, and learned how much can be
done if they want to. I haven't hooked up an IP security camera yet because
it seems to require full time Internet access, to inform China. I just want
it to wake an old cell phone by the bed if it detects motion.

On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 08:32:22 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
wrote:

>On 8/30/2023 8:15 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>> On 8/29/2023 3:01 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucl88d$2bbs9$1@dont-email.me...
>>
>>> The places I've worked that needed networking always had an IT
>>> department to handle it. They jealously guarded their jobs from the
>>> techs who were much better educated and could have done their work if
>>> we had the time. It was funny to attend an IT security lecture and
>>> then watch them crumble under questions they couldn't answer, not just
>>> from me though I was trained in top level military electronic
>>> communications security. I was once flagged for Googling "chainsaw", a
>>> common tool here in NH but a terror weapon in MA.
>>
>> I've had mostly similar experiences with IT personnel even to the point
>> that some would lie if they felt any part of their image might be
>> threatened.  The exceptions where the really smart guys who had managed
>> to work their way into a supervisory position.
>>
>> In college a buddy of mine (pretty smart fella) who had an on again off
>> again computer service business invited me to come help him put on a
>> demonstration.  He would periodically reserve the meeting room in the
>> basement of the library for the "Yuma Computer Club" and put a notice in
>> the newspaper.  We were using parallel laplink, and serial null modem
>> cables to transfer data from PC to PC.  No big deal today when you can
>> transfer gigabyte video files from your cell phone to your PC with blue
>> tooth, but it was a bid deal back then when network cards were crazy
>> expensive and many PC users were kids who saved their allowance and
>> Christmas gift money to buy a second or third generation old used PC so
>> they could dial up a BBS.
>>
>> The Yuma Computer Club was real and it was a fiction at the same time.
>> It did create a social connection between some people who might
>> otherwise never have met, but my buddy would just call a meeting and
>> setup a demo for something to get his business face in front of new
>> people.  It was always "open invite, all are welcome, demos will be
>> done," and there was never any club business like minutes, or votes or
>> anything like that.
>>
>> At the meeting where we were doing the PC to PC data transfers on the
>> cheap this kid name Craig came in with his mom in tow.  I think she just
>> came to make sure it was what it said it was, because I don't recall her
>> hanging around.  Craig sucked up everything we had to teach in seconds
>> the first time often before we finished explaining it.  I could tell we
>> bored him pretty quickly, but he was polite, listened, and watched as we
>> finished our demo and let people ask questions.  I'm modestly smart.  My
>> buddy is pretty smart.  I could tell Craig could suck knowledge out of a
>> rock.
>>
>> I didn't run into Craig a lot.  I might have seen him on some of the
>> BBSs, but I don't know what his handle was.
>>
>> One day not to many years later Craig walks into my office and asks if I
>> can run network cable.  Sure. Its cable.  Anything I don't know I can
>> learn.  He says, well I need a licensed contractor to run 200 arcnet
>> drops in the MCAS Yuma adversary squadron building.  We did the job on
>> schedule, and that's when I bought my first real network cable tester.
>> Craig was running his own computer business by then and he seemed to
>> know his way around pretty well.  He might have been 17 or 18.
>>
>> it was a big job for me.   $8.5K in 1995.  I had net terms from all my
>> vendors, and I figured we'd have it done in 2 weeks.  The job went fine,
>> there was some question over certification until I handed them
>> certification reports on a disk and then we submitted to get paid.  It
>> was Craig's job so he was the one who invoiced it. I invoiced him.
>>
>> The job wasn't to bad except for having to wait for somebody to open the
>> door to the building every time we came in.  The doors were posted no
>> photography and a few other things, but nobody gave us a second look.
>> They just opened doors for us.  The Russians would have paid dearly for
>> photos of the chalk boards in some of the rooms. I don't remember the
>> details of anything that was on the boards, but I do recall some of what
>> types of data was written.  Speeds, air frame G capabilities in various
>> maneuvers and vectors, etc.  Stuff that could be learned from
>> observation, and theoretical limits both.  Honestly I didn't really look
>> at any of it except to be surprised it was posted in empty meeting rooms.
>>
>> We didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid. I
>> had vendors screaming at me to get paid, and one of them cut off my
>> credit permanently.  I was calling Craig regularly.  I didn't know if he
>> played me or what.  One day he walks into my office, and tells me he
>> doesn't know what to do.  McDonald Douglas (yes I am naming those sorry
>> bastards) was just ignoring him.  Being a licensed contractor I have one
>> super power.  I can file a lien against the physical property involved
>> if I don't get paid.  We sat down and wrote a polite succinct, and
>> rather forceful lien notice letter to...   The Commandant of the Marine
>> Corps informing him that one of his contractors was refusing to pay us,
>> and had been ignoring us for months.  We would be filing a lien against
>> his air station.  Now I know we can't foreclose on a us military base,
>> but we could still file the lien and it would be a huge black eye for
>> the Marine Corp.
>>
>> I told Craig if he mailed that letter its likely he would never do
>> another job for McDonald Douglas, and maybe not for any military
>> contractor or us military service.  He said, it didn't matter if he
>> couldn't walk into my office and ask for help when he needed it.  It
>> wasn't too long (maybe a week) before Craig came down to my office and
>> handed me a check.  He said he had received it Fed-Ex overnight.
>>
>> I know what Craig said, but I figured that was a pretty unpleasant
>> experience.  I faced backlash in a couple of my vendor relationships
>> over it for years.  I didn't think I would ever see Craig again.  Only a
>> few years later he calls me up again.
>>
>> Craig was the head IT guy for a consortium to provide among other things
>> IT for about 40 schools.  He wanted to open purchases orders on dozens
>> of schools and have me do all their small jobs cabling, maintenance, and
>> repairs.  He's the one who asked me to get that high school registration
>> center up and running I posted about previously.  He was never the least
>> but threatened by me, and didn't mind me talking with his bosses, or
>> school administrators if he wasn't handy.  I did eventually screw that
>> up (my fault) for not kissing the ass of a political above him, but well
>> that happens.
>>
>> Craig was smart, recognized what others could do, and let them.  More so
>> he didn't seem to let ego get in his way or put unpleasantness off on
>> the wrong people like many others do.  Last I heard from his was a post
>> card and a phone call from Europe somewhere.  He was still working for
>> the consortium, but all of his work was on a consulting basis and he
>> would remote in if needed.  They had him on a retainer as an independent
>> consultant.
>>
>> I ran across a couple others like Craig.  Maybe not quite as smart, but
>> with the right attitude.  Herb with Crane Schools (IT for maybe 20
>> schools), and the guy (I can't recall his name) from Gowan Company.
>> Maybe because as Gowan got bigger and bigger he had to delegate to
>> underlings who were like as you described.
>>
>> One that blew me away in the wrong way was BOSE.  I sold them equipment
>> for their plant in Mexico which I visited once, and I did a big video
>> surveillance job for their warehouse here in Yuma.  The job included
>> network monitoring capability, but when it came to the point to setup
>> the DVRs on the network the IT people just refused.  They didn't refuse
>> to cooperate.  They refused to allow it on the network.  They didn't
>> understand it, and they wouldn't even listen when I explained unless
>> they opened up ports or put them in a DMZ there was no outside risk.
>> (Well unless it was hostile Chinese equipment which it wasn't.)  They
>> just refused.  In just a couple minutes they refused to even talk to me.
>>  They were clearly threatened, and I was a bit surprised they didn't
>> even want to tell me why. They just refused.
>>
>> I walked up the plant manager's office and explained why I couldn't
>> finish the job, and that I was invoicing them anyway.  I also documented
>> how his IT people could tie in the equipment for him if they decided to
>> do their jobs.  I gt paid in a timely fashion, and had very few service
>> calls.  I also did a few additional small jobs adding cameras. Nobody in
>> IT would talk to me at all.  LOL.
>>
>> Yeah, IT guys can act very tribal in a small group or very "everybody is
>> the enemy as individuals," but those who really know what they are doing
>> and really can learn whatever they need to don't seem to be.  The people
>> who actually are smart.
>>
>
>
>I never did another job for the Marine Corps, or a marine contractor,
>but I did work on base for individual marines a few times. I also did
>work for the Army, Air Force, Loral Aerospace (for the air force), and
>another AF contractor, Justice, Customs and through GSA. None of them
>were because I was on the government contractor bid list. All I got
>from that were was people trying to take advantage of me or sell me a
>class on how to be a government contractor. Every job I got was because
>somebody knew me and wanted me to do the job. A couple times I would
>get a call that start like this, "Bob, this is Sam. Renew your bid
>listing. We want you to bid a job." I did receive a few calls from
>Marine Corps contractors, but I quickly realized they were just fishing
>for a third bid so they could award it to their sweetheart anyway. I
>quit wasting my time on them.
>
>As to BOSE. A very senior manager became a personal client a couple
>years later. He found out I was making molds on the side and asked me
>about doing mold repair for their production facility in Mexico. I told
>him I didn't have machines that good, I didn't really know much about
>that type of mold making, if I did I would probably be just as expensive
>if not more so than companies who already had all the equipment and
>infra structure, and I wasn't sure I wanted to deal with guys like his
>IT department. He asked about my experience, listened, and said, "Price
>isn't that big of a deal as long as you don't screw us, you will only
>deal with me or somebody who respects the job you do, and if you ever
>feel you want to try this call me personally and let me know." That was
>a long time ago and I don't remember his name, but it made me feel a lot
>better about BOSE as a company.
>
>--
>Bob La Londe
>Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
>real machinist

On 8/30/2023 1:04 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucnne9$2pk7k$1@dont-email.me...
>
>> ...No big deal today when you can transfer gigabyte video files from
>> your cell phone to your PC with blue tooth, but it was a bid deal back
>> then when network cards were crazy expensive and many PC users were
>> kids who saved their allowance and Christmas gift money to buy a
>> second or third generation old used PC so they could dial up a BBS.
>
> I still haven't bought a brand new computer and use USB3 on an
> ExpressCard to transfer the TV video recordings to multi-terabyte
> drives. These older Dell laptops run Win7 for its HDTV tuner compatible
> Media Center and take a second 1TB drive for the recordings in the
> expansion bay, while booting from an SSD. Although the recordings are
> mainly concerts, musicals, operas etc I'm security conscious enough to
> not broadcast them on WiFi. Cable company mail and phone ad spam is bad
> enough without them knowing what I watch. They drive around monitoring
> for signal leakage and who knows what else. Maybe like in Britain they
> monitor the IF frequency to see what you are watching. I told you I was
> in communications security, and learned how much can be done if they
> want to. I haven't hooked up an IP security camera yet because it seems
> to require full time Internet access, to inform China. I just want it to
> wake an old cell phone by the bed if it detects motion.
>

Does home built from parts count as brand new ? The only "factory
built" computers here are the Lenovo laptops , and they were all refurbs
from Newegg . All our comps are running Win7 ... because my wife refuses
to learn Ubuntu , even though it's almost identical to windoze . She may
be forced to if/when they shut down all the older Win OS's .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On 8/30/2023 1:05 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

> No Highs, No lows -BOSE
>
> Along with Junky But Loud JBL
>

What's your opinion of Kenwood speakers ? I have a mishmash of component
stereo equipment , most pretty old stuff like the Pioneer SX-6 receiver
.. Rated .009% THD @ 50 watts , but it'll push 100 watts at .01 % .
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On 8/30/2023 11:05 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Aug 2023 08:32:22 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
> wrote:
>
>> On 8/30/2023 8:15 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
>>> On 8/29/2023 3:01 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>>>> "Bob La Londe"  wrote in message news:ucl88d$2bbs9$1@dont-email.me...
>>>
>>>> The places I've worked that needed networking always had an IT
>>>> department to handle it. They jealously guarded their jobs from the
>>>> techs who were much better educated and could have done their work if
>>>> we had the time. It was funny to attend an IT security lecture and
>>>> then watch them crumble under questions they couldn't answer, not just
>>>> from me though I was trained in top level military electronic
>>>> communications security. I was once flagged for Googling "chainsaw", a
>>>> common tool here in NH but a terror weapon in MA.
>>>
>>> I've had mostly similar experiences with IT personnel even to the point
>>> that some would lie if they felt any part of their image might be
>>> threatened.  The exceptions where the really smart guys who had managed
>>> to work their way into a supervisory position.
>>>
>>> In college a buddy of mine (pretty smart fella) who had an on again off
>>> again computer service business invited me to come help him put on a
>>> demonstration.  He would periodically reserve the meeting room in the
>>> basement of the library for the "Yuma Computer Club" and put a notice in
>>> the newspaper.  We were using parallel laplink, and serial null modem
>>> cables to transfer data from PC to PC.  No big deal today when you can
>>> transfer gigabyte video files from your cell phone to your PC with blue
>>> tooth, but it was a bid deal back then when network cards were crazy
>>> expensive and many PC users were kids who saved their allowance and
>>> Christmas gift money to buy a second or third generation old used PC so
>>> they could dial up a BBS.
>>>
>>> The Yuma Computer Club was real and it was a fiction at the same time.
>>> It did create a social connection between some people who might
>>> otherwise never have met, but my buddy would just call a meeting and
>>> setup a demo for something to get his business face in front of new
>>> people.  It was always "open invite, all are welcome, demos will be
>>> done," and there was never any club business like minutes, or votes or
>>> anything like that.
>>>
>>> At the meeting where we were doing the PC to PC data transfers on the
>>> cheap this kid name Craig came in with his mom in tow.  I think she just
>>> came to make sure it was what it said it was, because I don't recall her
>>> hanging around.  Craig sucked up everything we had to teach in seconds
>>> the first time often before we finished explaining it.  I could tell we
>>> bored him pretty quickly, but he was polite, listened, and watched as we
>>> finished our demo and let people ask questions.  I'm modestly smart.  My
>>> buddy is pretty smart.  I could tell Craig could suck knowledge out of a
>>> rock.
>>>
>>> I didn't run into Craig a lot.  I might have seen him on some of the
>>> BBSs, but I don't know what his handle was.
>>>
>>> One day not to many years later Craig walks into my office and asks if I
>>> can run network cable.  Sure. Its cable.  Anything I don't know I can
>>> learn.  He says, well I need a licensed contractor to run 200 arcnet
>>> drops in the MCAS Yuma adversary squadron building.  We did the job on
>>> schedule, and that's when I bought my first real network cable tester.
>>> Craig was running his own computer business by then and he seemed to
>>> know his way around pretty well.  He might have been 17 or 18.
>>>
>>> it was a big job for me.   $8.5K in 1995.  I had net terms from all my
>>> vendors, and I figured we'd have it done in 2 weeks.  The job went fine,
>>> there was some question over certification until I handed them
>>> certification reports on a disk and then we submitted to get paid.  It
>>> was Craig's job so he was the one who invoiced it. I invoiced him.
>>>
>>> The job wasn't to bad except for having to wait for somebody to open the
>>> door to the building every time we came in.  The doors were posted no
>>> photography and a few other things, but nobody gave us a second look.
>>> They just opened doors for us.  The Russians would have paid dearly for
>>> photos of the chalk boards in some of the rooms. I don't remember the
>>> details of anything that was on the boards, but I do recall some of what
>>> types of data was written.  Speeds, air frame G capabilities in various
>>> maneuvers and vectors, etc.  Stuff that could be learned from
>>> observation, and theoretical limits both.  Honestly I didn't really look
>>> at any of it except to be surprised it was posted in empty meeting rooms.
>>>
>>> We didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid, and we didn't get paid. I
>>> had vendors screaming at me to get paid, and one of them cut off my
>>> credit permanently.  I was calling Craig regularly.  I didn't know if he
>>> played me or what.  One day he walks into my office, and tells me he
>>> doesn't know what to do.  McDonald Douglas (yes I am naming those sorry
>>> bastards) was just ignoring him.  Being a licensed contractor I have one
>>> super power.  I can file a lien against the physical property involved
>>> if I don't get paid.  We sat down and wrote a polite succinct, and
>>> rather forceful lien notice letter to...   The Commandant of the Marine
>>> Corps informing him that one of his contractors was refusing to pay us,
>>> and had been ignoring us for months.  We would be filing a lien against
>>> his air station.  Now I know we can't foreclose on a us military base,
>>> but we could still file the lien and it would be a huge black eye for
>>> the Marine Corp.
>>>
>>> I told Craig if he mailed that letter its likely he would never do
>>> another job for McDonald Douglas, and maybe not for any military
>>> contractor or us military service.  He said, it didn't matter if he
>>> couldn't walk into my office and ask for help when he needed it.  It
>>> wasn't too long (maybe a week) before Craig came down to my office and
>>> handed me a check.  He said he had received it Fed-Ex overnight.
>>>
>>> I know what Craig said, but I figured that was a pretty unpleasant
>>> experience.  I faced backlash in a couple of my vendor relationships
>>> over it for years.  I didn't think I would ever see Craig again.  Only a
>>> few years later he calls me up again.
>>>
>>> Craig was the head IT guy for a consortium to provide among other things
>>> IT for about 40 schools.  He wanted to open purchases orders on dozens
>>> of schools and have me do all their small jobs cabling, maintenance, and
>>> repairs.  He's the one who asked me to get that high school registration
>>> center up and running I posted about previously.  He was never the least
>>> but threatened by me, and didn't mind me talking with his bosses, or
>>> school administrators if he wasn't handy.  I did eventually screw that
>>> up (my fault) for not kissing the ass of a political above him, but well
>>> that happens.
>>>
>>> Craig was smart, recognized what others could do, and let them.  More so
>>> he didn't seem to let ego get in his way or put unpleasantness off on
>>> the wrong people like many others do.  Last I heard from his was a post
>>> card and a phone call from Europe somewhere.  He was still working for
>>> the consortium, but all of his work was on a consulting basis and he
>>> would remote in if needed.  They had him on a retainer as an independent
>>> consultant.
>>>
>>> I ran across a couple others like Craig.  Maybe not quite as smart, but
>>> with the right attitude.  Herb with Crane Schools (IT for maybe 20
>>> schools), and the guy (I can't recall his name) from Gowan Company.
>>> Maybe because as Gowan got bigger and bigger he had to delegate to
>>> underlings who were like as you described.
>>>
>>> One that blew me away in the wrong way was BOSE.  I sold them equipment
>>> for their plant in Mexico which I visited once, and I did a big video
>>> surveillance job for their warehouse here in Yuma.  The job included
>>> network monitoring capability, but when it came to the point to setup
>>> the DVRs on the network the IT people just refused.  They didn't refuse
>>> to cooperate.  They refused to allow it on the network.  They didn't
>>> understand it, and they wouldn't even listen when I explained unless
>>> they opened up ports or put them in a DMZ there was no outside risk.
>>> (Well unless it was hostile Chinese equipment which it wasn't.)  They
>>> just refused.  In just a couple minutes they refused to even talk to me.
>>>  They were clearly threatened, and I was a bit surprised they didn't
>>> even want to tell me why. They just refused.
>>>
>>> I walked up the plant manager's office and explained why I couldn't
>>> finish the job, and that I was invoicing them anyway.  I also documented
>>> how his IT people could tie in the equipment for him if they decided to
>>> do their jobs.  I gt paid in a timely fashion, and had very few service
>>> calls.  I also did a few additional small jobs adding cameras. Nobody in
>>> IT would talk to me at all.  LOL.
>>>
>>> Yeah, IT guys can act very tribal in a small group or very "everybody is
>>> the enemy as individuals," but those who really know what they are doing
>>> and really can learn whatever they need to don't seem to be.  The people
>>> who actually are smart.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I never did another job for the Marine Corps, or a marine contractor,
>> but I did work on base for individual marines a few times. I also did
>> work for the Army, Air Force, Loral Aerospace (for the air force), and
>> another AF contractor, Justice, Customs and through GSA. None of them
>> were because I was on the government contractor bid list. All I got
>>from that were was people trying to take advantage of me or sell me a
>> class on how to be a government contractor. Every job I got was because
>> somebody knew me and wanted me to do the job. A couple times I would
>> get a call that start like this, "Bob, this is Sam. Renew your bid
>> listing. We want you to bid a job." I did receive a few calls from
>> Marine Corps contractors, but I quickly realized they were just fishing
>> for a third bid so they could award it to their sweetheart anyway. I
>> quit wasting my time on them.
>>
>> As to BOSE. A very senior manager became a personal client a couple
>> years later. He found out I was making molds on the side and asked me
>> about doing mold repair for their production facility in Mexico. I told
>> him I didn't have machines that good, I didn't really know much about
>> that type of mold making, if I did I would probably be just as expensive
>> if not more so than companies who already had all the equipment and
>> infra structure, and I wasn't sure I wanted to deal with guys like his
>> IT department. He asked about my experience, listened, and said, "Price
>> isn't that big of a deal as long as you don't screw us, you will only
>> deal with me or somebody who respects the job you do, and if you ever
>> feel you want to try this call me personally and let me know." That was
>> a long time ago and I don't remember his name, but it made me feel a lot
>> better about BOSE as a company.
>>
>> --
>> Bob La Londe
>> Proffessional Hack, Hobbyist, Wannabe, Shade Tree, Button Pushing, Not a
>> real machinist
>
>
> No Highs, No lows -BOSE
>
> Along with Junky But Loud JBL

"Snag" wrote in message news:ucoa6s$2sl46$1@dont-email.me...

Does home built from parts count as brand new ? The only "factory
built" computers here are the Lenovo laptops , and they were all refurbs
from Newegg .

-----------------

I don't know what counts to those who might care, mine including the laptops
are home built from used, a few new and occasionally shop made parts. My
first computer was completely home made (wire wrap) to my design, including
the metal case and an audio tape modem, and I coded the OS, text editor and
assembler. At work the lab computers were invariably former front office
machines and I found I could keep them useful for a good ten years. Except
for full sized data acquisition cards the older laptops could be adapted to
the same hardware interface tasks as desktops and didn't permanently take up
lab bench space.

I run them until the browser becomes obsolete, this one has Firefox 115 esr,
the final version for 7. The TV playing and recording laptops don't need an
Internet browser and haven't been updated at all, they'll send a smoke
signal when they go.

I do have a fairly recent Lenovo with Win 10 if needed, but I find it more
annoying than useful, and a cellular data hog. I stuck with Win 2000 for a
long time, with a pirate patch of XP features, then XP until 7 support
stopped. If REALLY necessary I still have a Teletype, Morse key and ham
license.

"Snag" wrote in message news:ucobhd$2sr2j$1@dont-email.me...

On 8/30/2023 1:05 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

> No Highs, No lows -BOSE
>
> Along with Junky But Loud JBL
>

What's your opinion of Kenwood speakers ? I have a mishmash of component
stereo equipment , most pretty old stuff like the Pioneer SX-6 receiver
.. Rated .009% THD @ 50 watts , but it'll push 100 watts at .01 % .
Snag

----------------------
I wish my ears were still rated that good.

"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:ucnmeh$2pff0$1@dont-email.me...

The job wasn't to bad except for having to wait for somebody to open the
door to the building every time we came in. The doors were posted no
photography and a few other things, but nobody gave us a second look.
They just opened doors for us. The Russians would have paid dearly for
photos of the chalk boards in some of the rooms.
------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Boyd_(military_strategist)
The prize for the 40 second bet was a steak dinner. AFAIK he always won it.

Mitre was very secure, with guards at the entrances and cipher locks on the
lab doors, of which I memorized a dozen. Another guy who knew Russian (and
looked like Trotsky) taught me some greeting phrases that we'd pass back and
forth as we walked past the oblivious guards. That was the maximum level of
rebellious independence I saw. With a clearance you develop the tendency to
stifle curiosity, ask no questions, be very polite and appear to notice
nothing you don't Need To Know. A stranger might be a powerful cabinet
member or Senator even if he's wearing a cowboy hat and boots. We dealt with
a high level FAA honcho who dressed like Hopalong Cassidy. Dean Kamen's
standard clothing to meet Presidents is a blue jean shirt and pants, he
could be mistaken for a plumber.

On 8/30/2023 5:32 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> "Snag"  wrote in message news:ucobhd$2sr2j$1@dont-email.me...
> On 8/30/2023 1:05 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>
>>   No Highs, No lows -BOSE
>>
>> Along with Junky But Loud JBL
>>
>
> What's your opinion of Kenwood speakers ? I have a mishmash of component
> stereo equipment , most pretty old stuff like the Pioneer SX-6 receiver
> . Rated .009% THD @ 50 watts , but it'll push 100 watts at .01 % .
> Snag
>
> ----------------------
> I wish my ears were still rated that good.

I don't think mine ever were ... I'm not so much into loud these days
as clean . Of course InnaGoddadaVida and Stairway to Heaven ...
--
Snag
Men don't protect women because they're weak .
We protect them because they're important .

On 31/08/2023 03:50, Snag wrote:
> On 8/30/2023 5:32 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
>> "Snag"  wrote in message news:ucobhd$2sr2j$1@dont-email.me...
>> On 8/30/2023 1:05 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:
>>
>>>   No Highs, No lows -BOSE
>>>
>>> Along with Junky But Loud JBL
>>>
>>
>> What's your opinion of Kenwood speakers ? I have a mishmash of
>> component stereo equipment , most pretty old stuff like the Pioneer
>> SX-6 receiver . Rated .009% THD @ 50 watts , but it'll push 100 watts
>> at .01 % .
>> Snag
>>
>> ----------------------
>> I wish my ears were still rated that good.
>
>   I don't think mine ever were ... I'm not so much into loud these
> days as clean . Of course InnaGoddadaVida and Stairway to Heaven ...

A mate was visiting a few years ago and he is a serious Heart fan from
their early days and I ran up this of Heart covering 'Stairway to
Heaven' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cZ_EFAmj08 , he'd never heard
of it before and was blown away, it's played at least once whenever he
is up my way. My ears aren't nearly as good as they used to be but I
still prefer vinyl having kept all mine when others ditched it. Some
albums the difference between CD and vinyl isn't as noticeable but on
some albums they were badly remastered for CD and the difference is
noticeable, IIRC Robert Plant pressed for LZ4 to be re-done some years
back for that reason.

"David Billington" wrote in message news:ucp0e8$33igi$1@dont-email.me...

A mate was visiting a few years ago and he is a serious Heart fan from
their early days and I ran up this of Heart covering 'Stairway to
Heaven' https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cZ_EFAmj08 ,

-------------------

Thanks. Nancy is one of my faves. I made the mistake of loud vs clean,
Cerwin-Vega 15's and a DAK subwoofer, second-hand of course.

I knew a classical radio announcer who had Voice of the Theater speakers in
his large custom listening room, and a tape of his wife's Broadway-class
singing definitely sounded better on his system than mine, almost as good as
the live performance I heard for a week from the lighting panel, but I
wasn't motivated to spend big bucks on entertainment when I could hear it
often enough from backstage.