https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
>

Not convinced it makes much difference, it’s up with painted bike lanes,
shows willing or more likely box ticking efforts but doesn’t seem to do
much.

While more expensive at least up front decent segregated infrastructure
does seem to change folks habits be that more cyclists or more varied
types.

Roger Merriman

On 10/18/2023 3:21 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>>
>>
>
> Not convinced it makes much difference, it’s up with painted bike lanes,
> shows willing or more likely box ticking efforts but doesn’t seem to do
> much.
>
> While more expensive at least up front decent segregated infrastructure
> does seem to change folks habits be that more cyclists or more varied
> types.

How much difference it makes depends on what someone is trying to
achieve. Personally, I was interested in being able to ride wherever I
wanted. For that, cyclist education was absolutely the best way to
achieve that. It opened up the world to my riding.

Because what was the alternative? Wait for "protective bike lanes"
everywhere? Even simple bike lane stripes are not yet on more than a
microscopic portion of the streets and roads I ride. If I'd waited for
those things, I'd still be confined to my driveway.

If instead people are trying to achieve big changes in society, I don't
see that fancy bike infrastructure is working. After years of inflated
estimates of 6+% bike mode share, Portland Oregon is dealing with a huge
drop in bike mode share. And as a guy who visited Portland frequently, I
know there was no time that 6% of the vehicles in motion were bicycles.
Other American cities typically have bike mode shares down around 1%,
even if they have miles and miles of (empty) bike lanes.

Americans are not going to use bikes instead of cars except for very
unusual places - places where motoring is somehow restricted or
impractical. No amount of expensive, weird and often incompetently
designed bike facilities will make Americans give up cars. Worse, those
who constantly say "We NEED separate facilities because roads are too
DANGEROUS!" are telling most people that they should never ride a bike
because of that danger. It's counterproductive.

Education works. Utopian fantasies don't.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:

>https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356

Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
represents the opposite of what was well known then:

"Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."

(John Forester, quoted from <67321@cup.portal.com>,
rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)

I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
practicing that, if necessary.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>

I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
my own, already.

Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.

However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
of Drivers Ed".

Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
which should be rejected.

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 19:21:10 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>>
>>
>
>Not convinced it makes much difference, it’s up with painted bike lanes,
>shows willing or more likely box ticking efforts but doesn’t seem to do
>much.
>
>While more expensive at least up front decent segregated infrastructure
>does seem to change folks habits be that more cyclists or more varied
>types.
>
>Roger Merriman

There will be some people sign up thinking it'd a good opportunity to
get together with other bicyclists to socialize and jibber-jabber..

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:59:22 AM UTC+2, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:

>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.

We propagate nothing. We don't care how other countries organize their cycling infrastructure. We also like Bavarian empty rolling hills but we don't have them here.

Lou

Am Thu, 19 Oct 2023 01:33:51 -0700 (PDT) schrieb Lou Holtman
<lou.holtman@gmail.com>:

>On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 8:59:22?AM UTC+2, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
>
>>
>> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
>> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
>> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.
>
> We propagate nothing. We don't care how other countries organize their
> cycling infrastructure. We also like Bavarian empty rolling hills but we
> don't have them here.

<https://the-low-countries.com/article/the-cycle-roundabout-in-eindhoven-a-dutch-masterpiece-of-design>

<https://www.youtube.com/@ipvDelft/about>

Well, I don't really care about how that masterpiece of segregation
propaganda found its way to the European Cyclists Federation (note the
(C) European Cyclists Federation on the left). But the producer of that
marketing artefact certainly is located in the Netherlands.

<https://www.youtube.com/@ipvDelft/about>

<https://www.youtube.com/@ipvDelft/about>

Took me about two minutes to find that. And what about that one
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CROW_Design_Manual_for_Bicycle_Traffic>

| CROW Design Manual for Bicycle Traffic is a publication on
| bicycle transportation planning and engineering in the
| Netherlands. It is published by CROW, a non-profit agency
| advising Directorate-General for Public Works and Water
| Management formerly Ministry of Transport and Water
| Management (Netherlands). It is the most influential bicycle
| traffic planning manual, both worldwide[1] and on cycling in
| the Netherlands. It was last updated in 2016.[2] It is
| considered best practice.

An so on. Of course it needs two parties to sell such stuff, people
who produce it and people who consume and spread it. Surely I mostly
blame people in my country falling into that trap.

These monster roundabouts may perhaps appeal in tiny, flat coastal
countries as car centric as the Netherlands. I shudder at how much
concrete, asphalt and space is wasted trying to keep cyclists out of the
way of drivers, though. Even more so, when people build something like
that in hilly terrain or in a narrow valley. Or talk about that in an
old, grown city - you would have to tear down another quarter of my
neighborhood if you wanted to replace the a few existing intersections
with something like that.

In less densely populated areas, I prefer roundabouts like that one

<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/roundabout.gif>
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/gimmersdorfkreisel.jpg>
or with more context:
<https://www.mystrobl.de/ws/pic/fahrrad/cycling101/roundaboutquickandsafe_e960.mp4>
(11.4 MB)

--
Thank you for observing all safety precautions

On 10/19/2023 1:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
> Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
> become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
> represents the opposite of what was well known then:
>
> "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
> vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."
>
> (John Forester, quoted from <67321@cup.portal.com>,
> rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)
>
> I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
> practicing that, if necessary.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>
>
> I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
> to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
> my own, already.
>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.
>
> However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
> is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
> of Drivers Ed".
>
> Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
> which should be rejected.
>

+1
That parallels my experience as well.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/19/2023 2:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
> Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
> become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
> represents the opposite of what was well known then:
>
> "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
> vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."
>
> (John Forester, quoted from <67321@cup.portal.com>,
> rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)
>
> I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
> practicing that, if necessary.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>
>
> I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
> to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
> my own, already.
>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.
>
> However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
> is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
> of Drivers Ed".
>
> Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
> which should be rejected.

I agree that LAB has become a bad influence. I and others I know dropped
our LAB teaching certifications because of their shift to promotion of
cyclist segregation and related issues. The last straw for me was an
unsigned white paper sent to LAB instructors claiming that door zone
bike lanes were just fine. (BTW, that received fierce pushback from many
if not most instructors.)

That said, I don't know the fine points of the current LAB curriculum.
It may be OK, as long as it treats segregated facilities as places for
extra caution, not places to doze off in perfect "safety."

The Cycling Savvy program is, IMO, the best cycling education program
going now in North America. It's quite compatible with John Franklin's
_Cyclecraft_. A lot of its content can be accessed from their website:
https://abea.bike/

Having said all that, even if the LAB program has shortcomings, I
suspect that the vast majority of American cyclists would be safer and
happier in their riding if they completed even that course. Most people
have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know"
that's absolutely wrong.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/19/2023 2:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
> Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
> become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
> represents the opposite of what was well known then:
>
> "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
> vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."
>
> (John Forester, quoted from <67321@cup.portal.com>,
> rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)
>
> I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
> practicing that, if necessary.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>
>
> I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
> to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
> my own, already.
>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.
>
> However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
> is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
> of Drivers Ed".
>
> Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
> which should be rejected.

I agree that LAB has become a bad influence. I and others I know dropped
our LAB teaching certifications because of their shift to promotion of
cyclist segregation and related issues. The last straw for me was an
unsigned white paper sent to LAB instructors claiming that door zone
bike lanes were just fine. (BTW, that received fierce pushback from many
if not most instructors.)

That said, I don't know the fine points of the current LAB curriculum.
It may be OK, as long as it treats segregated facilities as places for
extra caution, not places to doze off in perfect "safety."

The Cycling Savvy program is, IMO, the best cycling education program
going now in North America. It's quite compatible with John Franklin's
_Cyclecraft_. A lot of its content can be accessed from their website:
https://abea.bike/

Having said all that, even if the LAB program has shortcomings, I
suspect that the vast majority of American cyclists would be safer and
happier in their riding if they completed even that course. Most people
have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know"
that's absolutely wrong.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/19/2023 2:58 AM, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net>:
>
>> https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
> Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
> become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
> represents the opposite of what was well known then:
>
> "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
> vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."
>
> (John Forester, quoted from <67321@cup.portal.com>,
> rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)
>
> I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
> practicing that, if necessary.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>
>
> I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
> to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
> my own, already.
>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.
>
> However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
> is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
> of Drivers Ed".
>
> Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
> which should be rejected.
>

I agree that LAB has become a bad influence. I and others I know dropped
our LAB teaching certifications because of their shift to promotion of
cyclist segregation and related issues. The last straw for me was an
unsigned white paper sent to LAB instructors claiming that door zone
bike lanes were just fine. (BTW, that received fierce pushback from many
if not most instructors.)

That said, I don't know the fine points of the current LAB curriculum.
It may be OK, as long as it treats segregated facilities as places for
extra caution, not places to doze off in perfect "safety."

The Cycling Savvy program is, IMO, the best cycling education program
going now in North America. It's quite compatible with John Franklin's
_Cyclecraft_. A lot of its content can be accessed from their website:
https://abea.bike/

Having said all that, even if the LAB program has shortcomings, I
suspect that the vast majority of American cyclists would be safer and
happier in their riding if they completed even that course. Most people
have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know"
that's absolutely wrong.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 2:59:22 AM UTC-4, Wolfgang Strobl wrote:
> Am Wed, 18 Oct 2023 13:40:10 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net>:
>
> >https://bikeportland.org/2023/10/16/new-service-offers-bicycle-equivalent-of-drivers-ed-380356
>
> Uh oh. The League of American Bicyclists. This club has apparently
> become quite run down after the times of John Forester and now
> represents the opposite of what was well known then:
>
> "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of
> vehicles, using the roadways with the status of drivers."
>
> (John Forester, quoted from <67...@cup.portal.com>,
> rec.bicycles.soc Thu Oct 8 17:36:58 1992)
>
> I'd rather recommend reading Cyclecraft from John Franklin and
> practicing that, if necessary.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclecraft>
>
> I own a few edition of that book, having bought them after the fact, so
> to speak, out of curiosity. Much of that I learned many years before on
> my own, already.
>
> Many people in my age have learned it, but the traffic segregation
> nonsense propagated by people from tiny, flat coastal countries like the
> Netherlands is making younger people forget it more and more.
>
> However, the text from BikePortland does not reveal anything about what
> is to be learned and what is to be unlearned in that "bicycle equivalent
> of Drivers Ed".
>
> Unfortunately, the picture suggests a preference for traffic separation,
> which should be rejected.

I agree that LAB has become a bad influence. I and others I know dropped our LAB teaching certifications because of their shift to promotion of cyclist segregation and related issues. The last straw for me was an unsigned white paper sent to LAB instructors claiming that door zone bike lanes were just fine. (BTW, that received fierce pushback from many if not most instructors.)

That said, I don't know the fine points of the current LAB curriculum. It may be OK, as long as it treats segregated facilities as places for extra caution, not places to doze off in perfect "safety."

The Cycling Savvy program is, IMO, the best cycling education program going now in North America. It's quite compatible with John Franklin's _Cyclecraft_. A lot of its content can be accessed from their website:
https://abea.bike/

Having said all that, even if the LAB program has shortcomings, I suspect that the vast majority of American cyclists would be safer and happier in their riding if they completed even that course. Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong..

- Frank Krygowski

On 10/19/2023 1:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:

<snip>

> We propagate nothing. We don't care how other countries organize their cycling infrastructure. We also like Bavarian empty rolling hills but we don't have them here.
>
> Lou

Things have changed in the U.S. too. Yesterday I was at a traffic light
on a very busy eight lane road adjacent to Apple's Infinite Loop campus.
All of a sudden there is a swarm of middle-schoolers crossing the street
on their bicycles. Without the cycling infrastructure that prevents
vehicle drivers from committing illegal acts those children would likely
be being driven to school. It's nice to theorize that the police will be
there to enforce all the traffic laws, but that's a naive belief, you
need to implement traffic calming; route is here
<https://i.imgur.com/1Pp7z3S.jpeg>.

When the middle school first opened they didn't expect more than a few
cyclists would be coming in from that direction and had no bicycle
parking facility on that side of the school. When they were overwhelmed
with cyclists they quickly constructed a second secure parking area. The
first principal of that school transferred from a nearby elementary
school where there were essentially zero students riding their bicycles
to school, and the school had legendary traffic congestion, so she
probably based her expectations of cycling students on that experience.

What we've found in my town is that cycling infrastructure, especially
protected bicycle lanes, slows down vehicle traffic (even though the
road is not any narrower they can no longer use the bicycle lane to pass
on the right, nor can they leisurely drift to the right). The bicycling
infrastructure has increased cycling to specific places, especially by
young people, including the library and schools. The biggest change is
that the protected bicycle lanes prevent vehicles from illegally parking
or stopping in the bike lane (or on the shoulder in places where there
was no painted bike lane previously). And yes, there are some drivers
who are very annoyed that they now have to drive more precisely
including some that complained that they drifted over to the protected
bike lane and their tires were damaged by the divider.

Forester was never an advocate of increasing cycling numbers, probably
because he didn't want a bunch of young inexperienced cyclists impeding
him. "Effective Cycling" is essentially an opinion piece that promoted
Forester's ideology. There are so many errors of fact in that tome that
when I first read it, a pre-publication loose-leaf copy, it made my head
spin.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 4:51:11 PM UTC+2, sms wrote:
> On 10/19/2023 1:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > We propagate nothing. We don't care how other countries organize their cycling infrastructure. We also like Bavarian empty rolling hills but we don't have them here.
> >
> > Lou
> Things have changed in the U.S. too. Yesterday I was at a traffic light
> on a very busy eight lane road adjacent to Apple's Infinite Loop campus.
> All of a sudden there is a swarm of middle-schoolers crossing the street
> on their bicycles. Without the cycling infrastructure that prevents
> vehicle drivers from committing illegal acts those children would likely
> be being driven to school. It's nice to theorize that the police will be
> there to enforce all the traffic laws, but that's a naive belief, you
> need to implement traffic calming; route is here
> <https://i.imgur.com/1Pp7z3S.jpeg>.
>
> When the middle school first opened they didn't expect more than a few
> cyclists would be coming in from that direction and had no bicycle
> parking facility on that side of the school. When they were overwhelmed
> with cyclists they quickly constructed a second secure parking area. The
> first principal of that school transferred from a nearby elementary
> school where there were essentially zero students riding their bicycles
> to school, and the school had legendary traffic congestion, so she
> probably based her expectations of cycling students on that experience.
>
> What we've found in my town is that cycling infrastructure, especially
> protected bicycle lanes, slows down vehicle traffic (even though the
> road is not any narrower they can no longer use the bicycle lane to pass
> on the right, nor can they leisurely drift to the right). The bicycling
> infrastructure has increased cycling to specific places, especially by
> young people, including the library and schools. The biggest change is
> that the protected bicycle lanes prevent vehicles from illegally parking
> or stopping in the bike lane (or on the shoulder in places where there
> was no painted bike lane previously). And yes, there are some drivers
> who are very annoyed that they now have to drive more precisely
> including some that complained that they drifted over to the protected
> bike lane and their tires were damaged by the divider.
>
> Forester was never an advocate of increasing cycling numbers, probably
> because he didn't want a bunch of young inexperienced cyclists impeding
> him. "Effective Cycling" is essentially an opinion piece that promoted
> Forester's ideology. There are so many errors of fact in that tome that
> when I first read it, a pre-publication loose-leaf copy, it made my head
> spin.
>
> --
> “If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
> really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
> indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
> they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

If I could dictate how the cycling infrastructure would be organized the big roundabouts Herr Strobl was referring to would look different but that would be selfish.

Lou

On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.

Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't going to help
much.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On 10/20/2023 10:50 AM, sms wrote:
> On 10/19/2023 1:33 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
>
> Forester was never an advocate of increasing cycling numbers, probably
> because he didn't want a bunch of young inexperienced cyclists impeding
> him.

Forester did not have the objective of increasing cycling numbers. His
interest was in making cycling better for those who chose to ride. As he
described it, he didn't invent the techniques he taught. Instead, he
made available to Americans what had long been known in other countries,
particularly Britain where he was born and learned to ride.

But he did a brilliant job of analyzing the principles of traffic law
and explaining how those principles applied to bicyclists, as well as
other road users. The logic he uncovered is the foundation of all
legitimate cycling instruction to this day.

Along the way, he did point out the lack of logic in the design of many
bike facilities. Here's a prime example: Yesterday I drove on a local
street with brand new bike lane stripes. At a major intersection, the
bike lane is against the curb. The normal traffic lane at its left has a
double arrow for "Straight or Right Turn." In what other situation is a
straight ahead lane (like this bike lane) placed to the right of a lane
from which a vehicle may turn right?

To those with any sense, that's an obvious recipe for a right hook.
Those who have learned to bike competently will recognize it. But many
people will not, and will think "I'm in a bike lane so I'm safe." If and
when a fatality occurs, many will say "See? We need a concrete wall
between cars and bikes!" As if the concrete wall would extend all the
way across an intersection!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/30/well/live/are-bike-lanes-really-safe.html

https://biketoeverything.com/2021/01/19/avoid-the-right-hook/

https://virtuousbicycle.com/BlogSpace/avoiding-the-right-hook/

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
>
> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't going to help
> much.

I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.

Did you have some specifics in mind?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:41:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>
> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>
> Did you have some specifics in mind?

Locally, L.A.B. has mounted a compaign to persuade right-turning
drivers that they must never merge in behind a bicycle in a bike lane
and wait their turn to use the intersection, but instead overtake and
suddenly swerve across the bike lane from the straight-through lane.

Looking for more specifics would be tedious and disheartening.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net

On 10/20/2023 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and
>>> about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
>>
>> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't
>> going to help
>> much.
>
> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>
> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>

Examples abound:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/the-dei-threat-to-our-military-academies

You taught engineering which once included formulae and
necessary mathematics. That was long ago in cultural terms:

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/

https://mynorthwest.com/2937573/rantz-teacher-uses-science-class-to-call-white-middle-schoolers-privileged-oppressors/
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, October 20, 2023 at 11:07:18 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> >> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and
> >>> about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
> >>
> >> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't
> >> going to help
> >> much.
> >
> > I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
> >
> > Did you have some specifics in mind?
> >
> Examples abound:
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/the-dei-threat-to-our-military-academies
>
> You taught engineering which once included formulae and
> necessary mathematics. That was long ago in cultural terms:
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/04/racist-math-education/524199/
>
> https://mynorthwest.com/2937573/rantz-teacher-uses-science-class-to-call-white-middle-schoolers-privileged-oppressors/
> --
> Andrew Muzi
> a...@yellowjersey.org
> Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Mathematics taught and tested by "the book" does not produce the very best mathematicians. That is done by the students themselves. A passing grade may not be good but very much of the advancement of mathematics has been made by people who find that subject interesting but who may have trouble following the teaching methods of others.

I explained before that my lung injury was caused because the PhD's did not have the common sense to add a safety factor to pumping out the poison gas chamber. But that would not have been necessary if they had originally given me the proper calculations to properly explain the operating characteristics of the sensor. I went back to them several times and asked if they were SURE that the sensor operated that way and even after supposedly rechecking the calculations several times they still insisted that they were correct. So I had to get a book and teach myself calculus so that I could start with the basic sensor information from the manufacturer to discover they were entirely off. Correcting the program at the very last moment I had to shorten the pump down time and reprogram the device in order to prove that it would then properly work. I got the device properly showing the exact amount of gas down to its lowest level in the last hour of the last day of the contract. If those physicists had used an actual mathematician instead of thinking that math was too easy for a PhD. they would have gotten their program weeks earlier and without endangering my life.

On 10/20/2023 1:51 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:41:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>>
>> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>
> Locally, L.A.B. has mounted a compaign to persuade right-turning
> drivers that they must never merge in behind a bicycle in a bike lane
> and wait their turn to use the intersection, but instead overtake and
> suddenly swerve across the bike lane from the straight-through lane.
>
> Looking for more specifics would be tedious and disheartening.

Can you give links to document that campaign? If it's what you claim, I
know people who would be very interested in countering it.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/20/2023 2:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know, and about what
>>>> they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
>>>
>>> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't going to help
>>> much.
>>
>> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>>
>> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>>
>
> Examples abound:
> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/the-dei-threat-to-our-military-academies

I know bike-related topics are rare in this group, but
I was actually talking about education related to on-road bicycling.

And I assure you, despite the fears of many, engineering schools still
teach actual engineering. In fact, most engineering professors I know
seem to be at least a bit right of center in their politics. I can give
examples, but some here will whine that I'm making things up.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 10/20/2023 2:48 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 10/20/2023 2:07 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 10/20/2023 12:41 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2023 12:59 PM, Joy Beeson wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 19 Oct 2023 10:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Most people have no idea about what they don't know,
>>>>> and about what they "know" that's absolutely wrong.
>>>>
>>>> Teaching them more stuff that is absolutely wrong isn't
>>>> going to help
>>>> much.
>>>
>>> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>>>
>>> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>>>
>>
>> Examples abound:
>> https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/restoring-america/patriotism-unity/the-dei-threat-to-our-military-academies
>
> I know bike-related topics are rare in this group, but
> I was actually talking about education related to on-road
> bicycling.
>
> And I assure you, despite the fears of many, engineering
> schools still teach actual engineering. In fact, most
> engineering professors I know seem to be at least a bit
> right of center in their politics. I can give examples, but
> some here will whine that I'm making things up.
>

Apologies then.
We certainly agree about false concepts and
counterproductive theory in the area of so called education
about cycling in traffic.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 10/20/2023 10:51 AM, Joy Beeson wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 13:41:36 -0400, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>
>> I didn't advocate teaching what's wrong.
>>
>> Did you have some specifics in mind?
>
> Locally, L.A.B. has mounted a compaign to persuade right-turning
> drivers that they must never merge in behind a bicycle in a bike lane
> and wait their turn to use the intersection, but instead overtake and
> suddenly swerve across the bike lane from the straight-through lane.

This contradicts California law where you are supposed to merge into the
bike lane up to 200 feet prior to turning right. Unlikely that L.A.B. is
advocating swerving across the bike lane.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 15:44:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Can you give links to document that campaign?

It isn't an organized campaign, just sporadic announcements that car
tires must never, ever touch pavement used by bicycles.

Since bike lanes are the most-annoying result of League Against
Bicycling's "Bike Friendly City" designation, that was the first
example to spring to mind.

I keep losing the slips of paper on which I write the widths of the
bike lanes. Next time I measure them, I must post them on my Web
site.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/