In message <uv9jtd$1t8et$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
writes
>On 4/11/2024 5:40 AM, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <ksrd1jp6iqr06oi547bqvg45anbav0vsgj@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
>><me@privacy.net> writes
>>> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 09:59:59 +0100, Tim Lamb
>>> <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> How do I print a screen showing detail from a CD?
>>>>
>>>> Herts. CC Tithe map. Original display size prints ok but enlargements
>>>> invariably revert.
>>>> PrSc? Does that need Alt key as well? What then?
>>>
>>> Does W7 have a 'screen snip' facility? Oh yes, I see it does
>>> https://tinyurl.com/yc7tdnjz
>>> I use screen snip on Win 10 a lot, often for doing just what you want
>>> to do, copying a section of the Tithe Map (or other OS maps). I can
>>> save directly into the Word document that I am preparing, or to a jpeg
>>> file and then use it as, when and where I want, sometimes using
>>> Photoshop to enhance what can be a rather pale and flat image.
>>
>> Yes! Just found:-)
>>
>> Despite all the vaccinations and pretty much being a recluse, this
>>morning I tested positive for Covid!
>
>Just out of curiosity, what sub-type ?

Pass. I got the second red line on an *in date* detection kit.

Day one was low temperature! Moderate balance issues, runny nose with
occasional sneezing. Annoyingly overnight bladder control has meant
piddling every hour or so:-(
>
>Wondering what reagent they're using now and what it senses.
>
>When they were giving away detection kits six months
>ago, the "guy" didn't even know what the detection kits
>detected. It should say, somewhere, what it is armed to detect.
>With constant mutation, there's no guarantee a test kit
>can detect everything.
>
>Despite all the vaccinations, your protection wanes with time.
>There is a long-term part of your immune system, which this
>particular vaccine does not train. COVID is not a human disease.
>Our immune system (with the exception of some "special" humans)
>is not a good match for the disease. There are a few humans,
>who unlike yourself, have absolutely no worries in this regard.
>They could not catch SARS, MERS, or COVID.
>
>Neither is the H5N1, which should strike... any time now.
>It has recently hopped species, and will be our next candidate.
>(AKA the old bird flu.) Normally it does bird to bird, and
>we kill the bird flocks. But this time it did bird to animal.
>And then animal to human, is getting... kinda close. It's
>this kind of shit, is why poultry farms are run like
>"biohazard sites", where you dip your Wellies in bleach.

Basically there are too many humans on the planet leading to intensive
food production for our survival and further expansion.
>
> Paul

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

> Paul writes
>
>>> Despite all the vaccinations and pretty much being a recluse, this
>>> morning I tested positive for Covid!
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what sub-type ?
>
> Pass. I got the second red line on an *in date* detection kit.

I went out over Easter weekend, and have had some kind of lurgy since
the week after, cough leading to sore throat, ultra snotty nose,
unclearable throat, nothing worse than that.

Don't feel any compulsion to go out a buy a test kit though, I'll just
stay at home as much as possible anyway ...

On 12/04/2024 in message <Ibuiv3Nb3PGmFwDf@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> Tim
Lamb wrote:

>>It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post, press
>>Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>
>Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
>understood and used by their average customer?

From memory it has been part of the OS since the year dot, if you copy and
paste things in Word, Excel etc. etc. you use it (perhaps without
realising you are using it) and the "PrtSc" button is reasonably self
explanatory - it's a useful extension of the Clipboard.

--
Jeff Gaines Dorset UK
Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists
or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedies.

On 4/12/2024 5:41 AM, Tim Lamb wrote:

> My technical education stopped in 1983 when I took up farming full time.
> I guess anyone shunting photographs into word files would have learned
> these processes as technology progressed
>

The clipboard didn't always exist, or didn't always work.
You have avoided a lot of aggravation.

Paul

On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>
>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button may
>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or Alt+PrtSc
>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>
>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>
>>
>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>
> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
> understood and used by their average customer?
>>
>

Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
for many years.

You might find it easier to left click and hold to select an
area, followed by right click and just select cuT, Copy, Paste
or Delete from the menu.

On 12/04/2024 10:57, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <uv9jtd$1t8et$1@dont-email.me>, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
> writes
>> On 4/11/2024 5:40 AM, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <ksrd1jp6iqr06oi547bqvg45anbav0vsgj@4ax.com>, Chris Hogg
>>> <me@privacy.net> writes
>>>> On Mon, 8 Apr 2024 09:59:59 +0100, Tim Lamb
>>>> <tim@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> How do I print a screen showing detail from a CD?
>>>>>
>>>>> Herts. CC Tithe map. Original display size prints ok but enlargements
>>>>> invariably revert.
>>>>> PrSc? Does that need Alt key as well? What then?
>>>>
>>>> Does W7 have a 'screen snip' facility? Oh yes, I see it does
>>>> https://tinyurl.com/yc7tdnjz
>>>> I use screen snip on Win 10 a lot, often for doing just what you want
>>>> to do, copying a section of the Tithe Map (or other OS maps). I can
>>>> save directly into the Word document that I am preparing, or to a jpeg
>>>> file and then use it as, when and where I want, sometimes using
>>>> Photoshop to enhance what can be a rather pale and flat image.
>>>
>>> Yes! Just found:-)
>>>
>>> Despite all the vaccinations and pretty much being a recluse, this
>>> morning I tested positive for Covid!
>>
>> Just out of curiosity, what sub-type ?
>
> Pass. I got the second red line on an *in date* detection kit.
>
> Day one was low temperature! Moderate balance issues, runny nose with
> occasional sneezing. Annoyingly overnight bladder control has meant
> piddling every hour or so:-(
>>
>> Wondering what reagent they're using now and what it senses.
>>
>> When they were giving away detection kits six months
>> ago, the "guy" didn't even know what the detection kits
>> detected. It should say, somewhere, what it is armed to detect.
>> With constant mutation, there's no guarantee a test kit
>> can detect everything.
>>
>> Despite all the vaccinations, your protection wanes with time.
>> There is a long-term part of your immune system, which this
>> particular vaccine does not train. COVID is not a human disease.
>> Our immune system (with the exception of some "special" humans)
>> is not a good match for the disease. There are a few humans,
>> who unlike yourself, have absolutely no worries in this regard.
>> They could not catch SARS, MERS, or COVID.
>>
>> Neither is the H5N1, which should strike... any time now.
>> It has recently hopped species, and will be our next candidate.
>> (AKA the old bird flu.) Normally it does bird to bird, and
>> we kill the bird flocks. But this time it did bird to animal.
>> And then animal to human, is getting... kinda close. It's
>> this kind of shit, is why poultry farms are run like
>> "biohazard sites", where you dip your Wellies in bleach.
>
> Basically there are too many humans on the planet leading to intensive
> food production for our survival and further expansion.
>>
>>   Paul
>

I had it twice last december. The first one started on Nov 30th and
the next day was just like nasty shivery flu which lasted 3 days, and
gave a strong positive LF test, then gave me the most awful sore throat
that I have had for decades. After 8 days an LF test was still positive
then it fizzled out by mid December.

ON Xmas eve I picked up a really nasty cold, the sort that did the
rounds back in the 1970's, and again had a positive LF test, but this
time I had no flu-like shivery, aching muscle symptoms.

On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com> wrote:

> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button may
>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>
>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or Alt+PrtSc
>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>
>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>
>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>
>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
>> understood and used by their average customer?
>
> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
> for many years.

Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became mainstream
when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago. Copied by MS for
Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to this day,
instead.

--
“It is not the truth of Marxism that explains the willingness of intellectuals to believe it, but the power that it confers on intellectuals, in their attempts to control the world. And since ... it is futile to reason someone out of a thing that he was not reasoned into, we can conclude that Marxism owes its remarkable power to survive every criticism to the fact that it is not a truth-directed but a power-directed system of thought.”

Sir Roger Scruton

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 05:58:30 +1000, Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk>
wrote:

> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button may
>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>
>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>
>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>
>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>> for many years.
>
> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently,

Nope, DEC OSs had it long before that.

> but then became mainstream
> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago.

> Copied by MS for
> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier.

Wrong again, it was in DOS long before that.

> Macs use the CMD key to this day, instead.

On 12/04/2024 10:41, Tim Lamb wrote:
> In message <uv8eck$1kr6i$1@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>> On 11/04/2024 10:35, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <uv6ict$13bk3$1@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>> On 10/04/2024 15:12, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>> In message <uv5oop$ssev$2@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>>>> On 09/04/2024 17:44, Mark wrote:
>>>>>>> John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 08/04/2024 09:59, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> How do I print a screen showing detail from a CD?
>>>>>>>>> Herts. CC Tithe map. Original display size prints ok but
>>>>>>>>> enlargements
>>>>>>>>> invariably revert.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PrSc? Does that need Alt key as well? What then?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PrintScreen will capture the current (logical) screen to the
>>>>>>>> clipboard.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you want to actually print that, you will need to past that into
>>>>>>>> something that can handle bitmap images (like Paint etc), and
>>>>>>>> then  print
>>>>>>>> from there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PrtScr+ALT just captures the currently active window, rather
>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>> whole logical[1] screen.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] Logical in the sense that windows support multiple monitors if
>>>>>>>> desired, and you can have your windows desktop spread over several
>>>>>>>> physical screens. PrtSc on its own will  in those cases capture
>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>> that one physical screen's worth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  winkey+shift+s crops wanted bit on screen and saves to clipbourd
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only if you have the snipping tool enabled - that might not always
>>>>>> be  the case on Win 7
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (snipping tool also has an editor that will let you save the snip
>>>>>> to  disk without needing to past it into another app first)
>>>>>  Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>> map  section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>> resolution  copy.
>>>>> W7 does not have *clipboard* and the keyboard with a PrSc button
>>>>> may  not  have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>
>>>> PrtSc to copy to clipboard is standard (has been there since at
>>>> least  Win 3.1!)
>>>>
>>>> (The "Snipping tool" was a later addition - possibly not in win 7)
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for all the advice but please remember I'm at the
>>>>> agricultural  end of computer knowledge:-)
>>>  Hmm. *search programs and files* fails to find anything called
>>> *clipboard*
>>> Snipping tool is found.
>>
>>
>> Clipboard is not a "program" as such - but the name for the shared
>> "cut'n'paste" buffer that is a part of windows.
>>
>> Hence you can copy or cut information in a program, and paste it
>> elsewhere. This works within one program - say moving a section of
>> text in a word processor, but also works between unrelated bits of
>> software - say pasting text from your word processor into notepad, or
>> a form on a web page.
>>
>> It also works with graphic data. So open a program that can handle
>> pictures and create a new empty document if necessary. Press PrtScr.
>> That will capture a snapshot of the screen and hold it in the windows
>> clipboard. Now select "paste" in the program, and you should be
>> rewarded with a picture of your desktop pasted into the doc.
>>
>> So for example, if I press PrnScr + ALT while this windows is active,
>> and then open Paint, and do paste, I get this :
>>
>> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:DemoClipScreenshot.png
>
> Ok. Thanks John and Paul for the detailed explanations.
>
> My technical education stopped in 1983 when I took up farming full time.
> I guess anyone shunting photographs into word files would have learned
> these processes as technology progressed

ISTM much of the conceptual difficulty with the Print Screen key is the
fact that it is still called that!

There was a time (when DOS ruled), you pushed it[1], and a snapshot of
the (text mode) screen popped out of the printer. It pretty much did
what it says on the tin.

In windows world, it has never really done that, but by that time all
the key caps were printed and standardised...

A "Copy Screen" key might be more aptly named. You push it, it makes a
copy "somewhere", which you can later paste into something (including
something that could print it out)

[1] Odd bit of tech trivia... (for geek entertainment only!)

x86 CPUs (like pretty all the others), support an interrupt handling
capability - a way for an external device to signal to the CPU that it
needs attention. When this happens, the CPU will stop whatever it was
doing, jump off to some code (aka an an "Interrupt Handler" or
"Interrupt Service Routine" (ISR)) to deal with the needs of whatever
was signalling it, and then resume normal execution from where it left off.

To achieve this voodoo there is typically a jump table of interrupt
vectors that point the CPU toward those interrupt handlers - so
different sources of interrupt can be linked to the required handlers.

Now normally interrupts are a "hardware thing" - some electronic device
is wired to an interrupt line into the CPU, so that it can signal when
it wants to interrupt.

The x86 range also has a software interrupt capability that uses the
same trick for handling some "exceptions" that can be generated in the
CPU itself. In the 8088 used in the original IBM PC, the CPU could
generate 5 such exceptions - numbered 0 to 4 (for things like a divide
by zero event or an overflow, but also single step debugging).

The idea being that you could have an ISR that could "handle" some kinds
of software event if wanted. Intel in their published data books for the
CPU highlighted that although the 8088/8086 only used 5 of these
exceptions, they reserved more of them for extra facilities that may be
added to later CPUs. They told developers not to used any of those
reserved ones.

So what did IBM do? They implemented the print screen routine as if it
was an ISR. Now having the print screen code implemented as an ISR is
quite nifty - you can call it anywhere at any time, and it will make a
note of what it was doing, go off and print the screen, and then carry
on where it left off. So even in the body of the code that handles key
presses (also done in an ISR that handles the key up/down events that
interrupt the CPU), it could generate a software interrupt to call the
print screen code. So far so good. However they also decided to make
this handler the sixth one - one of the reserved ones that Intel said
"don't use".

All was fine and dandy until the 80286 came out and found it way into
the IBM PC-AT. That had a new "bounds" exception internally wired to the
sixth interrupt (and another couple of exceptions using the next two
reserved ones). The bound exception could be used to automatically
validate that data the CPU was processing fell within certain limits or
"bounds". Not often used, but it did have the nice side effect that if
your code generated a bounds exception unexpectedly, and had not
bothered to install its own ISR to handle it, the PC would respond by
printing the screen!

(and if you were using bounds processing, and your implemented your own
ISR to handle the exception, it now also had to deal with the problem of
your code getting called at random times by the PC BIOS whenever the
user pressed Print Screen key!).

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On 4/12/2024 3:58 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button may
>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>
>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>
>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>
>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>> for many years.
>
> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became mainstream
> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago. Copied by MS for
> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to this day,
> instead.
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut%2C_copy%2C_and_paste

"The commands were pioneered into computing by Xerox PARC in 1974,
popularized by Apple Computer in the 1983 Lisa workstation and the
1984 Macintosh computer, and in a few home computer applications
such the 1984 word processor Cut & Paste."

Windows doesn't get mentioned *at all* in that article. Not a good sign.

https://www.quora.com/When-was-copy-and-paste-added-to-Windows

"The clipboard and associated cut/copy/paste functionality has been
present in Windows since 16-bit Windows 1.01 was released in 1985."

which makes sense, because only with a graphics environment, do you
get interested in stealing PARC ideas.

So it's PARC, Apple, Windows.

Paul

On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 13:49:19 +1000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:

> On 4/12/2024 3:58 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
>> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button may
>>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>>
>>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>>
>>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
>>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>>
>>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>>> for many years.
>>
>> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became
>> mainstream
>> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago. Copied by
>> MS for
>> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to this
>> day,
>> instead.
>>
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut%2C_copy%2C_and_paste
>
> "The commands were pioneered into computing by Xerox PARC in 1974,
> popularized by Apple Computer in the 1983 Lisa workstation and the
> 1984 Macintosh computer, and in a few home computer applications
> such the 1984 word processor Cut & Paste."
>
> Windows doesn't get mentioned *at all* in that article. Not a good sign.

And they got it wrong about who pioneered it too, it
was in the DEC OSs well before that and it DOS too.

> https://www.quora.com/When-was-copy-and-paste-added-to-Windows

> "The clipboard and associated cut/copy/paste functionality has been
> present in Windows since 16-bit Windows 1.01 was released in 1985."

> which makes sense, because only with a graphics environment, do you
> get interested in stealing PARC ideas.

> So it's PARC, Apple, Windows.

Andrew wrote:

> CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
> for many years.

Though ctrl-ins and shift-ins were used by some programs.

On 13/04/2024 06:51, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 13:49:19 +1000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 4/12/2024 3:58 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
>>> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off a
>>>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button may
>>>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process is
>>>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>>>
>>>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>>>> for many years.
>>>
>>> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became
>>> mainstream
>>> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago. Copied
>>> by MS for
>>> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to
>>> this day,
>>> instead.
>>>
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut%2C_copy%2C_and_paste
>>
>>    "The commands were pioneered into computing by Xerox PARC in 1974,
>>     popularized by Apple Computer in the 1983 Lisa workstation and the
>>     1984 Macintosh computer, and in a few home computer applications
>>     such the 1984 word processor Cut & Paste."
>>
>> Windows doesn't get mentioned *at all* in that article. Not a good sign.
>
> And they got it wrong about who pioneered it too, it
> was in the DEC OSs well before that and it DOS too.

Feel free to cite evidence of your claims. I know you can't.

On 13/04/2024 03:50, John Rumm wrote:
> On 12/04/2024 10:41, Tim Lamb wrote:
>> In message <uv8eck$1kr6i$1@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>> On 11/04/2024 10:35, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>> In message <uv6ict$13bk3$1@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>>> On 10/04/2024 15:12, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>> In message <uv5oop$ssev$2@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>>>>> On 09/04/2024 17:44, Mark wrote:
>>>>>>>> John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 08/04/2024 09:59, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> How do I print a screen showing detail from a CD?
>>>>>>>>>> Herts. CC Tithe map. Original display size prints ok but
>>>>>>>>>> enlargements
>>>>>>>>>> invariably revert.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PrSc? Does that need Alt key as well? What then?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PrintScreen will capture the current (logical) screen to the
>>>>>>>>> clipboard.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If you want to actually print that, you will need to past that
>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>> something that can handle bitmap images (like Paint etc), and
>>>>>>>>> then  print
>>>>>>>>> from there.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> PrtScr+ALT just captures the currently active window, rather
>>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>>> whole logical[1] screen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] Logical in the sense that windows support multiple monitors if
>>>>>>>>> desired, and you can have your windows desktop spread over several
>>>>>>>>> physical screens. PrtSc on its own will  in those cases capture
>>>>>>>>> more
>>>>>>>>> that one physical screen's worth.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  winkey+shift+s crops wanted bit on screen and saves to clipbourd
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only if you have the snipping tool enabled - that might not
>>>>>>> always be  the case on Win 7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (snipping tool also has an editor that will let you save the snip
>>>>>>> to  disk without needing to past it into another app first)
>>>>>>  Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off
>>>>>> a map  section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>> resolution  copy.
>>>>>> W7 does not have *clipboard* and the keyboard with a PrSc button
>>>>>> may  not  have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>
>>>>> PrtSc to copy to clipboard is standard (has been there since at
>>>>> least  Win 3.1!)
>>>>>
>>>>> (The "Snipping tool" was a later addition - possibly not in win 7)
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for all the advice but please remember I'm at the
>>>>>> agricultural  end of computer knowledge:-)
>>>>  Hmm. *search programs and files* fails to find anything called
>>>> *clipboard*
>>>> Snipping tool is found.
>>>
>>>
>>> Clipboard is not a "program" as such - but the name for the shared
>>> "cut'n'paste" buffer that is a part of windows.
>>>
>>> Hence you can copy or cut information in a program, and paste it
>>> elsewhere. This works within one program - say moving a section of
>>> text in a word processor, but also works between unrelated bits of
>>> software - say pasting text from your word processor into notepad, or
>>> a form on a web page.
>>>
>>> It also works with graphic data. So open a program that can handle
>>> pictures and create a new empty document if necessary. Press PrtScr.
>>> That will capture a snapshot of the screen and hold it in the windows
>>> clipboard. Now select "paste" in the program, and you should be
>>> rewarded with a picture of your desktop pasted into the doc.
>>>
>>> So for example, if I press PrnScr + ALT while this windows is active,
>>> and then open Paint, and do paste, I get this :
>>>
>>> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:DemoClipScreenshot.png
>>
>> Ok. Thanks John and Paul for the detailed explanations.
>>
>> My technical education stopped in 1983 when I took up farming full
>> time. I guess anyone shunting photographs into word files would have
>> learned these processes as technology progressed
>
> ISTM much of the conceptual difficulty with the Print Screen key is the
> fact that it is still called that!
>
> There was a time (when DOS ruled), you pushed it[1], and a snapshot of
> the (text mode) screen popped out of the printer. It pretty much did
> what it says on the tin.
>
> In windows world, it has never really done that, but by that time all
> the key caps were printed and standardised...
>
> A "Copy Screen" key might be more aptly named. You push it, it makes a
> copy "somewhere", which you can later paste into something (including
> something that could print it out)
>
>
> [1] Odd bit of tech trivia... (for geek entertainment only!)
>
> x86 CPUs (like pretty all the others), support an interrupt handling
> capability - a way for an external device to signal to the CPU that it
> needs attention. When this happens, the CPU will stop whatever it was
> doing, jump off to some code (aka an an "Interrupt Handler" or
> "Interrupt Service Routine" (ISR)) to deal with the needs of whatever
> was signalling it, and then resume normal execution from where it left off.
>
> To achieve this voodoo there is typically a jump table of interrupt
> vectors that point the CPU toward those interrupt handlers - so
> different sources of interrupt can be linked to the required handlers.
>
> Now normally interrupts are a "hardware thing" - some electronic device
> is wired to an interrupt line into the CPU, so that it can signal when
> it wants to interrupt.
>
> The x86 range also has a software interrupt capability that uses the
> same trick for handling some "exceptions" that can be generated in the
> CPU itself. In the 8088 used in the original IBM PC, the CPU could
> generate 5 such exceptions - numbered 0 to 4 (for things like a divide
> by zero event or an overflow, but also single step debugging).
>
> The idea being that you could have an ISR that could "handle" some kinds
> of software event if wanted. Intel in their published data books for the
> CPU highlighted that although the 8088/8086 only used 5 of these
> exceptions, they reserved more of them for extra facilities that may be
> added to later CPUs. They told developers not to used any of those
> reserved ones.
>
> So what did IBM do? They implemented the print screen routine as if it
> was an ISR.  Now having the print screen code implemented as an ISR is
> quite nifty - you can call it anywhere at any time, and it will make a
> note of what it was doing, go off and print the screen, and then carry
> on where it left off.  So even in the body of the code that handles key
> presses (also done in an ISR that handles the key up/down events that
> interrupt the CPU), it could generate a software interrupt to call the
> print screen code. So far so good. However they also decided to make
> this handler the sixth one - one of the reserved ones that Intel said
> "don't use".
>
> All was fine and dandy until the 80286 came out and found it way into
> the IBM PC-AT. That had a new "bounds" exception internally wired to the
> sixth interrupt (and another couple of exceptions using the next two
> reserved ones). The bound exception could be used to automatically
> validate that data the CPU was processing fell within certain limits or
> "bounds". Not often used, but it did have the nice side effect that if
> your code generated a bounds exception unexpectedly, and had not
> bothered to install its own ISR to handle it, the PC would respond by
> printing the screen!
>
> (and if you were using bounds processing, and your implemented your own
> ISR to handle the exception, it now also had to deal with the problem of
> your code getting called at random times by the PC BIOS whenever the
> user pressed Print Screen key!).

On 13/04/2024 07:12, Andy Burns wrote:
> Andrew wrote:
>
>> CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>> for many years.
>
> Though ctrl-ins and shift-ins were used by some programs.

On DEC VMS using something like a VT220 or VT320 it was common to use
Shift Del and Shift Ins to cut and paste. (If you wanted a "copy" option
you got in the habit of rolling over Del and Insert while holding shift
to copy to delete the text into the clipboard, and then restore it
before moving to the final insert position and inserting it again).

--
Cheers,

John.

/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/

On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 00:29:08 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:

> On 13/04/2024 06:51, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 13:49:19 +1000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/12/2024 3:58 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
>>>> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message
>>>>>>>>> <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print
>>>>>>>>>> off a
>>>>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc button
>>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or
>>>>>>>>> Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous process
>>>>>> is
>>>>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>>>>
>>>>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>>>>> for many years.
>>>>
>>>> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became
>>>> mainstream
>>>> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago. Copied
>>>> by MS for
>>>> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to
>>>> this day,
>>>> instead.
>>>>
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut%2C_copy%2C_and_paste
>>>
>>> "The commands were pioneered into computing by Xerox PARC in 1974,
>>> popularized by Apple Computer in the 1983 Lisa workstation and the
>>> 1984 Macintosh computer, and in a few home computer applications
>>> such the 1984 word processor Cut & Paste."
>>>
>>> Windows doesn't get mentioned *at all* in that article. Not a good
>>> sign.
>> And they got it wrong about who pioneered it too, it
>> was in the DEC OSs well before that and in DOS too.

> Feel free to cite evidence of your claims.

Read the DEC manuals.

In the case of DOS, run it and see.

Even you should be able to manage that if someone
was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye
dog and a white cane.

On 13/04/2024 15:42, Fredxx wrote:
> On 13/04/2024 03:50, John Rumm wrote:
>> On 12/04/2024 10:41, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>> In message <uv8eck$1kr6i$1@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>> On 11/04/2024 10:35, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>> In message <uv6ict$13bk3$1@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 15:12, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <uv5oop$ssev$2@dont-email.me>, John Rumm
>>>>>>> <see.my.signature@nowhere.null> writes
>>>>>>>> On 09/04/2024 17:44, Mark wrote:
>>>>>>>>> John Rumm wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 08/04/2024 09:59, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> How do I print a screen showing detail from a CD?
>>>>>>>>>>> Herts. CC Tithe map. Original display size prints ok but
>>>>>>>>>>> enlargements
>>>>>>>>>>> invariably revert.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> PrSc? Does that need Alt key as well? What then?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PrintScreen will capture the current (logical) screen to the
>>>>>>>>>> clipboard.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If you want to actually print that, you will need to past that
>>>>>>>>>> into
>>>>>>>>>> something that can handle bitmap images (like Paint etc), and
>>>>>>>>>> then  print
>>>>>>>>>> from there.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> PrtScr+ALT just captures the currently active window, rather
>>>>>>>>>> than the
>>>>>>>>>> whole logical[1] screen.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1] Logical in the sense that windows support multiple
>>>>>>>>>> monitors if
>>>>>>>>>> desired, and you can have your windows desktop spread over
>>>>>>>>>> several
>>>>>>>>>> physical screens. PrtSc on its own will  in those cases
>>>>>>>>>> capture more
>>>>>>>>>> that one physical screen's worth.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>  winkey+shift+s crops wanted bit on screen and saves to clipbourd
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Only if you have the snipping tool enabled - that might not
>>>>>>>> always be  the case on Win 7
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (snipping tool also has an editor that will let you save the
>>>>>>>> snip to  disk without needing to past it into another app first)
>>>>>>>  Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print off
>>>>>>> a map  section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>> resolution  copy.
>>>>>>> W7 does not have *clipboard* and the keyboard with a PrSc button
>>>>>>> may  not  have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PrtSc to copy to clipboard is standard (has been there since at
>>>>>> least  Win 3.1!)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (The "Snipping tool" was a later addition - possibly not in win 7)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for all the advice but please remember I'm at the
>>>>>>> agricultural  end of computer knowledge:-)
>>>>>  Hmm. *search programs and files* fails to find anything called
>>>>> *clipboard*
>>>>> Snipping tool is found.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Clipboard is not a "program" as such - but the name for the shared
>>>> "cut'n'paste" buffer that is a part of windows.
>>>>
>>>> Hence you can copy or cut information in a program, and paste it
>>>> elsewhere. This works within one program - say moving a section of
>>>> text in a word processor, but also works between unrelated bits of
>>>> software - say pasting text from your word processor into notepad,
>>>> or a form on a web page.
>>>>
>>>> It also works with graphic data. So open a program that can handle
>>>> pictures and create a new empty document if necessary. Press PrtScr.
>>>> That will capture a snapshot of the screen and hold it in the
>>>> windows clipboard. Now select "paste" in the program, and you should
>>>> be rewarded with a picture of your desktop pasted into the doc.
>>>>
>>>> So for example, if I press PrnScr + ALT while this windows is
>>>> active, and then open Paint, and do paste, I get this :
>>>>
>>>> https://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/File:DemoClipScreenshot.png
>>>
>>> Ok. Thanks John and Paul for the detailed explanations.
>>>
>>> My technical education stopped in 1983 when I took up farming full
>>> time. I guess anyone shunting photographs into word files would have
>>> learned these processes as technology progressed
>>
>> ISTM much of the conceptual difficulty with the Print Screen key is
>> the fact that it is still called that!
>>
>> There was a time (when DOS ruled), you pushed it[1], and a snapshot of
>> the (text mode) screen popped out of the printer. It pretty much did
>> what it says on the tin.
>>
>> In windows world, it has never really done that, but by that time all
>> the key caps were printed and standardised...
>>
>> A "Copy Screen" key might be more aptly named. You push it, it makes a
>> copy "somewhere", which you can later paste into something (including
>> something that could print it out)
>>
>>
>> [1] Odd bit of tech trivia... (for geek entertainment only!)
>>
>> x86 CPUs (like pretty all the others), support an interrupt handling
>> capability - a way for an external device to signal to the CPU that it
>> needs attention. When this happens, the CPU will stop whatever it was
>> doing, jump off to some code (aka an an "Interrupt Handler" or
>> "Interrupt Service Routine" (ISR)) to deal with the needs of whatever
>> was signalling it, and then resume normal execution from where it left
>> off.
>>
>> To achieve this voodoo there is typically a jump table of interrupt
>> vectors that point the CPU toward those interrupt handlers - so
>> different sources of interrupt can be linked to the required handlers.
>>
>> Now normally interrupts are a "hardware thing" - some electronic
>> device is wired to an interrupt line into the CPU, so that it can
>> signal when it wants to interrupt.
>>
>> The x86 range also has a software interrupt capability that uses the
>> same trick for handling some "exceptions" that can be generated in the
>> CPU itself. In the 8088 used in the original IBM PC, the CPU could
>> generate 5 such exceptions - numbered 0 to 4 (for things like a divide
>> by zero event or an overflow, but also single step debugging).
>>
>> The idea being that you could have an ISR that could "handle" some
>> kinds of software event if wanted. Intel in their published data books
>> for the CPU highlighted that although the 8088/8086 only used 5 of
>> these exceptions, they reserved more of them for extra facilities that
>> may be added to later CPUs. They told developers not to used any of
>> those reserved ones.
>>
>> So what did IBM do? They implemented the print screen routine as if it
>> was an ISR.  Now having the print screen code implemented as an ISR is
>> quite nifty - you can call it anywhere at any time, and it will make a
>> note of what it was doing, go off and print the screen, and then carry
>> on where it left off.  So even in the body of the code that handles
>> key presses (also done in an ISR that handles the key up/down events
>> that interrupt the CPU), it could generate a software interrupt to
>> call the print screen code. So far so good. However they also decided
>> to make this handler the sixth one - one of the reserved ones that
>> Intel said "don't use".
>>
>> All was fine and dandy until the 80286 came out and found it way into
>> the IBM PC-AT. That had a new "bounds" exception internally wired to
>> the sixth interrupt (and another couple of exceptions using the next
>> two reserved ones). The bound exception could be used to automatically
>> validate that data the CPU was processing fell within certain limits
>> or "bounds". Not often used, but it did have the nice side effect that
>> if your code generated a bounds exception unexpectedly, and had not
>> bothered to install its own ISR to handle it, the PC would respond by
>> printing the screen!
>>
>> (and if you were using bounds processing, and your implemented your
>> own ISR to handle the exception, it now also had to deal with the
>> problem of your code getting called at random times by the PC BIOS
>> whenever the user pressed Print Screen key!).
>
> ISR 21h was used by DOS.

On 13/04/2024 15:49, John Rumm wrote:
> On 13/04/2024 07:12, Andy Burns wrote:
>> Andrew wrote:
>>
>>> CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>>> for many years.
>>
>> Though ctrl-ins and shift-ins were used by some programs.

IBM CUA (Common User Access) standard.

>
> On DEC VMS using something like a VT220 or VT320 it was common to use
> Shift Del and Shift Ins to cut and paste. (If you wanted a "copy" option
> you got in the habit of rolling over Del and Insert while holding shift
> to copy to delete the text into the clipboard, and then restore it
> before moving to the final insert position and inserting it again).

In some OS environments, the pairs

Ctrl-ins and Shift-ins

Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V

are two different clipboards. The use of which gets even more
complicated when I'm running around in remote desktop windows.

FWIW I prefer Ctrl-ins but there are some laptops that have now done
away with the ins key :(

--
Adrian C

On 13/04/2024 20:13, Rod Speed wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 00:29:08 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 13/04/2024 06:51, Rod Speed wrote:
>>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 13:49:19 +1000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 4/12/2024 3:58 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message
>>>>>>>>>> <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print
>>>>>>>>>>> off a
>>>>>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc
>>>>>>>>>>> button may
>>>>>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or
>>>>>>>>>> Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted into a
>>>>>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>>>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous
>>>>>>> process is
>>>>>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>>>>>> for many years.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became
>>>>> mainstream
>>>>> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago.
>>>>> Copied by MS for
>>>>> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to
>>>>> this day,
>>>>> instead.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut%2C_copy%2C_and_paste
>>>>
>>>>    "The commands were pioneered into computing by Xerox PARC in 1974,
>>>>     popularized by Apple Computer in the 1983 Lisa workstation and the
>>>>     1984 Macintosh computer, and in a few home computer applications
>>>>     such the 1984 word processor Cut & Paste."
>>>>
>>>> Windows doesn't get mentioned *at all* in that article. Not a good
>>>> sign.
>>>  And they got it wrong about who pioneered it too, it
>>> was in the DEC OSs well before that and in DOS too.
>
>> Feel free to cite evidence of your claims.
>
> Read the DEC manuals.

Feel free to provide a link.

> In the case of DOS, run it and see.

So? DOS (1981) is post 1974.

> Even you should be able to manage that if someone
> was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye
> dog and a white cane.

Is this your way of admitting that you're wrong (again)?

On Mon, 15 Apr 2024 07:12:01 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:

> On 13/04/2024 20:13, Rod Speed wrote:
>> On Sun, 14 Apr 2024 00:29:08 +1000, Fredxx <fredxx@spam.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/04/2024 06:51, Rod Speed wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 13 Apr 2024 13:49:19 +1000, Paul <nospam@needed.invalid>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 4/12/2024 3:58 PM, Tim Streater wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Apr 2024 at 19:18:09 BST, "Andrew" <Andrew97d@btinternet.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12/04/2024 10:24, Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <xn0okfzrr19p3ej001@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>>>> On 11/04/2024 in message
>>>>>>>>> <DfZgeeJI26FmFwrl@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In message <xn0okeupe7592f000@news.individual.net>, Jeff Gaines
>>>>>>>>>> <jgnewsid@outlook.com> writes
>>>>>>>>>>> On 10/04/2024 in message
>>>>>>>>>>> <0$stG$Gf5pFmFw+b@marfordfarm.demon.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim Lamb wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not been keeping up on this. The original issue was to print
>>>>>>>>>>>> off a
>>>>>>>>>>>> map section, enlarged for clarity.
>>>>>>>>>>>> The job was for a neighbour who seems happy with the lower
>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution copy.
>>>>>>>>>>>> W7 does not have clipboard and the keyboard with a PrSc
>>>>>>>>>>>> button may
>>>>>>>>>>>> not have been supplied with the original PC (re-furb).
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Win 7 had a clipboard. As has been said pressing PrtSc or
>>>>>>>>>>> Alt+PrtSc
>>>>>>>>>>> put the image on the clipboard from where it can be pasted
>>>>>>>>>>> into a
>>>>>>>>>>> program that accepts graphics data.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Um. Not found on this one. W7 32 bit pro
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's easy enough to test. Open Paint then come back to this post,
>>>>>>>>> press Alt+PrtsSc, go back to Paint and press Ctrl + v.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ok. Please tell me why Microsoft would assume this tortuous
>>>>>>>> process is
>>>>>>>> understood and used by their average customer?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cough. CTRL + C (copy) and CTRL + V (paste) has been enabled
>>>>>>> for many years.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes - introduced in 1974 at Xerox PARC, apparently, but then became
>>>>>> mainstream
>>>>>> when Apple's Lisa and Macs were introduced some 40 years ago.
>>>>>> Copied by MS for
>>>>>> Windows using the CTRL key as a modifier. Macs use the CMD key to
>>>>>> this day,
>>>>>> instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cut%2C_copy%2C_and_paste
>>>>>
>>>>> "The commands were pioneered into computing by Xerox PARC in 1974,
>>>>> popularized by Apple Computer in the 1983 Lisa workstation and
>>>>> the
>>>>> 1984 Macintosh computer, and in a few home computer applications
>>>>> such the 1984 word processor Cut & Paste."
>>>>>
>>>>> Windows doesn't get mentioned *at all* in that article. Not a good
>>>>> sign.
>>>> And they got it wrong about who pioneered it too, it
>>>> was in the DEC OSs well before that and in DOS too.
>>
>>> Feel free to cite evidence of your claims.
>> Read the DEC manuals.

> Feel free to provide a link.

Even you should be able to find the OS names
using wikipedia and then google the manual.

>> In the case of DOS, run it and see.

> So? DOS (1981) is post 1974.

Pity about CP/M

>> Even you should be able to manage that if someone
>> was actually stupid enough to lend you a seeing eye
>> dog and a white cane.