I am currently listening to Joanna Trollope's 'The Choir', read by Nadia
May. It took me a while to get in to it, too many characters (I'm getting
worse at remembering names) and possibly not enough variation in 'voices'
from the reader. I'm getting into it now, but...

What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
learnt lawyering from a book.

I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
How should they be pronounced?

And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
'misericord'?
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>
> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise
> the word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I
> have often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I
> pronounce them in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about
> the chap who learnt lawyering from a book.

A while ago I read something about not criticising people for
mispronouncing an unusual word as it shows they learnt it for themselves
rather than having been taught. I've changed my attitude as a result.
(Unless they have access to a famous pronunciation unit that could
advise.)

The one I got wrong as a child was hysteresis.

> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.

So do I. But logically, it is closed (like a cul-de-sac bag's bottom)
rather than nearby so maybe we're both wrong.

> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
> How should they be pronounced?

I believe both are correct, but maybe the former is more common on
churches and the latter more common on railway carriages.

> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say
> 'reredos',

rare-ray-doss

> 'misericord'?

miz-air-ickord, emphasis on air.

But don't take my word for it.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
> word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
> often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
> in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
> learnt lawyering from a book.
>
> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
> How should they be pronounced?

I remember listening to an Audible book and being very surprised to hear
"clear-story" as I had always thought it was pronounced as you indicate.
Whether I had actually ever heard the word pronounced before,
correctly or incorrectly, I don't know.

As for "Cathedral close", I have heard that spoken many a time and never
with the long o and the z sound.
>
> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
> 'misericord'?

As you ask how I say them, not how they should be pronounced, I will say
to me the latter is miz-Ericord but I've never known about the former
and I don't think I've ever had to say it.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

In message <kf5bp3FhsuuU1@mid.individual.net> at Sat, 17 Jun 2023
09:13:07, Jim Easterbrook <news@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> writes
>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>>
>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise
>> the word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I
>> have often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I
>> pronounce them in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about
>> the chap who learnt lawyering from a book.
>
>A while ago I read something about not criticising people for
>mispronouncing an unusual word as it shows they learnt it for themselves
>rather than having been taught. I've changed my attitude as a result.

I'm not sure there: if they learnt it themselves, they should also have
learnt how to say it - but I concede, only if they realise it _could_
have an unexpected pronunciation.

>(Unless they have access to a famous pronunciation unit that could
>advise.)

(-: [I believe that unit was mostly killed off by being made to charge
for its services, with the result that hardly any department then used
it; I'm not sure it still exists - anyone?]
>
>The one I got wrong as a child was hysteresis.

What a wonderful childhood, that learns such a word!

As a child, I read a certain word inside my head as being pronounced
mizzled; I'm pretty sure I heard misled used, and just thought they were
two words - it was only when I spoke my one, and the correct
pronunciation was given, that the light came on. Another word, that my
mother used a lot, I thought was spelt kay-os. (Don't think I saw it
much [the word, not the situation].)
>
>> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
>
>So do I. But logically, it is closed (like a cul-de-sac bag's bottom)
>rather than nearby so maybe we're both wrong.

I think I'd say it with a hissy s, certainly if part of a street name,
though I'm not sure: if I heard someone else say a specific close first,
I'd probably follow them.
>
>> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
>> How should they be pronounced?
>
>I believe both are correct, but maybe the former is more common on
>churches and the latter more common on railway carriages.

My mind wants to say cleh-rest-, but having had it pointed out that
their purpose is to let light in, clear- seems sensible (and I just
accept the misleading spelling as an odd mediaeval one that stuck). I've
not come across it in a railway context - same purpose?
>
>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say
>> 'reredos',
>
>rare-ray-doss

I'm not sure I've ever said it! I think I'd use something like
re-re-doss, possibly tending towards rear-dos. Or maybe reh-reh-doss?
Not sure.
>
>> 'misericord'?
>
>miz-air-ickord, emphasis on air.

Certainly those syllables; I've heard it often enough now (not that I've
heard it that often!) that I know the stress is on the e, but even
before I had, I'd still have used a short i, and not pronounced it as in
miser (Scrooge).

Thinking about that, there are quite a few words of Germanic, Latin, or
French roots that I instinctively pronounce closer to those roots than
many British people. Of course, I can't think of a single example!
>
>But don't take my word for it.
>
As another said, the question was how do _you_, not how "should", so we
_do_ take your word!
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Madness takes its toll. Please have exact change
[via Penny Mayes (mayes@pmail.net)]

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>
> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say
> 'reredos',
> 'misericord'?

I've just remembered one of those TV historian chaps (Dan Cruickshank?)
wandering about an old cathedral, waving his arms[1] and speaking in
hushed tones, so mispronouncing a word I thought everyone knew that other
half and I both shouted in unison our usual pronunciation. Can't remember
what the word was though.

[1] I am always reminded of the Armstrong & Miller sketches featuring a TV
presenter who always knocked over a suit of armour or unravelled a
priceless tapestry or some similar disaster while continuing to deliver
his piece to camera.

--
Jim <http://www.jim-easterbrook.me.uk/>
1959/1985? M B+ G+ A L- I- S- P-- CH0(p) Ar++ T+ H0 Q--- Sh0

On 17/06/2023 12:06, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <kf5bp3FhsuuU1@mid.individual.net> at Sat, 17 Jun 2023
> 09:13:07, Jim Easterbrook <news@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> writes
>> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>>>
>>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise
>>> the word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I
>>> have often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I
>>> pronounce them in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about
>>> the chap who learnt lawyering from a book.
>>
>> A while ago I read something about not criticising people for
>> mispronouncing an unusual word as it shows they learnt it for themselves
>> rather than having been taught. I've changed my attitude as a result.
>
> I'm not sure there: if they learnt it themselves, they should also have
> learnt how to say it - but I concede, only if they realise it _could_
> have an unexpected pronunciation.
>
>> (Unless they have access to a famous pronunciation unit that could
>> advise.)
>
> (-: [I believe that unit was mostly killed off by being made to charge
> for its services, with the result that hardly any department then used
> it; I'm not sure it still exists - anyone?]

If anyone would know it would be your previous interlocutor.

john

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> I am currently listening to Joanna Trollope's 'The Choir', read by Nadia
> May. It took me a while to get in to it, too many characters (I'm getting
> worse at remembering names) and possibly not enough variation in 'voices'
> from the reader. I'm getting into it now, but...
>
> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
> word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
> often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
> in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
> learnt lawyering from a book.
>
> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
> How should they be pronounced?
>
> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
> 'misericord'?

I’ve heard ‘reredos’ pronounced ‘rare-e-dos’ which I believe is the
priest’s or monk’s privvy

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> I am currently listening to Joanna Trollope's 'The Choir', read by Nadia
> May. It took me a while to get in to it, too many characters (I'm getting
> worse at remembering names) and possibly not enough variation in 'voices'
> from the reader. I'm getting into it now, but...
>
> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
> word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
> often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
> in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
> learnt lawyering from a book.
>
> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
> How should they be pronounced?
>
> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
> 'misericord'?

Ian Skelly (Radio 3, Afternoon Concert) pronounced a conductor’s name
yesterday as ‘Featherstone Huff’ so I wrote in and had several mentions
during the rest of the programme as I suggested the name is sometimes
pronounced ‘Fanshaw’ rather than Featherstonhough. Later I sent him a link
to ‘Fanshaw’ in Wikipedia. Life can be complicated - but interesting!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 17 Jun 2023 09:13:07 GMT, Jim Easterbrook <news@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> a
gribouillé dans la poussière...

>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>>
>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise
>> the word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I
>> have often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I
>> pronounce them in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about
>> the chap who learnt lawyering from a book.
>
>A while ago I read something about not criticising people for
>mispronouncing an unusual word as it shows they learnt it for themselves
>rather than having been taught. I've changed my attitude as a result.
>(Unless they have access to a famous pronunciation unit that could
>advise.)

I feel a professional narrator should have done their homework - or the
production company should have someone who knows, actually listen to the
thing before publishing it.

As it happens, while listening while gardening today, I noticed every now
and then she does pronounce 'close' my way and I wondered if she'd stumbled
over something else and did re-record with direction. I know the odd
sentence does get re-recorded because they don't always edit them in
correctly and a phrase is repeated.

>The one I got wrong as a child was hysteresis.
>
>> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
>
>So do I. But logically, it is closed (like a cul-de-sac bag's bottom)
>rather than nearby so maybe we're both wrong.

I agree with the logic but I have heard
"There's a breathless hush in the Close tonight
Ten to make and the match to win".

>> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
>> How should they be pronounced?
>
>I believe both are correct, but maybe the former is more common on
>churches and the latter more common on railway carriages.
>
>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say
>> 'reredos',
>
>rare-ray-doss
>
>> 'misericord'?
>
>miz-air-ickord, emphasis on air.
>
>But don't take my word for it.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 12:06:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> a
gribouillé dans la poussière...

>In message <kf5bp3FhsuuU1@mid.individual.net> at Sat, 17 Jun 2023
>09:13:07, Jim Easterbrook <news@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> writes
>>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>>>
>>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise
>>> the word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I
>>> have often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I
>>> pronounce them in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about
>>> the chap who learnt lawyering from a book.
>>
>>A while ago I read something about not criticising people for
>>mispronouncing an unusual word as it shows they learnt it for themselves
>>rather than having been taught. I've changed my attitude as a result.
>
>I'm not sure there: if they learnt it themselves, they should also have
>learnt how to say it - but I concede, only if they realise it _could_
>have an unexpected pronunciation.
--->O
>As a child, I read a certain word inside my head as being pronounced
>mizzled; I'm pretty sure I heard misled used, and just thought they were
>two words - it was only when I spoke my one, and the correct
>pronunciation was given, that the light came on.

That one was part of the sketch I mentioned, along with aleebee, for alibi

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:39:19 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
a gribouillé dans la poussière...

>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say ...
>> 'misericord'?
>
>As you ask how I say them, not how they should be pronounced, I will say
>to me the latter is miz-Ericord

Miz Eric Ord?
An unusual name for a woman ;)

I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
mispronunciations. In other company it's fine if one follows up with "as my
family call it/them", otherwise someone may 'help' by giving you the
correct word/pronunciation - awkward :|

In my case, having heard all my bothers refer to anti-queue shops, I didn't
get as far as I might have done in an early primary school reading- level
test :(
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 19:14:03 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:39:19 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
>a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>
>>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say ...
>>> 'misericord'?
>>
>>As you ask how I say them, not how they should be pronounced, I will say
>>to me the latter is miz-Ericord
>
>Miz Eric Ord?
>An unusual name for a woman ;)
>
>I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
>mispronunciations. In other company it's fine if one follows up with "as my
>family call it/them", otherwise someone may 'help' by giving you the
>correct word/pronunciation - awkward :|
>
>In my case, having heard all my bothers refer to anti-queue shops, I didn't
>get as far as I might have done in an early primary school reading- level
>test :(
We refer to aleebees for alibis

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 18:53:10 +0100, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 12:06:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> a
>gribouillé dans la poussière...
>
>>In message <kf5bp3FhsuuU1@mid.individual.net> at Sat, 17 Jun 2023
>>09:13:07, Jim Easterbrook <news@jim-easterbrook.me.uk> writes
>>>On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 09:52:14 +0100, Penny wrote:
>>>>
>>>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise
>>>> the word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I
>>>> have often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I
>>>> pronounce them in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about
>>>> the chap who learnt lawyering from a book.
>>>
>>>A while ago I read something about not criticising people for
>>>mispronouncing an unusual word as it shows they learnt it for themselves
>>>rather than having been taught. I've changed my attitude as a result.
>>
>>I'm not sure there: if they learnt it themselves, they should also have
>>learnt how to say it - but I concede, only if they realise it _could_
>>have an unexpected pronunciation.
> --->O
>>As a child, I read a certain word inside my head as being pronounced
>>mizzled; I'm pretty sure I heard misled used, and just thought they were
>>two words - it was only when I spoke my one, and the correct
>>pronunciation was given, that the light came on.
>
>That one was part of the sketch I mentioned, along with aleebee, for alibi

I saw this after I posted we do that! I thought it was just us.

On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 16:52:50 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
<toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:

>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
>> 'misericord'?
>
>I’ve heard ‘reredos’ pronounced ‘rare-e-dos’ which I believe is the
>priest’s or monk’s privvy

I thought that was the piscina.
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On 17/06/2023 20:27, Penny wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 16:52:50 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
> <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
>>> 'misericord'?
>>
>> I’ve heard ‘reredos’ pronounced ‘rare-e-dos’ which I believe is the
>> priest’s or monk’s privvy
>
> I thought that was the piscina.

As usual, umra is the font of all knowledge.

Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
> Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>> I am currently listening to Joanna Trollope's 'The Choir', read by Nadia
>> May. It took me a while to get in to it, too many characters (I'm getting
>> worse at remembering names) and possibly not enough variation in 'voices'
>> from the reader. I'm getting into it now, but...
>>
>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
>> word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
>> often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
>> in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
>> learnt lawyering from a book.
>>
>> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
>> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
>> How should they be pronounced?
>>
>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
>> 'misericord'?
>
> I’ve heard ‘reredos’ pronounced ‘rare-e-dos’ which I believe is the
> priest’s or monk’s privvy
>

Nope. That’s the necessarium (as shown in Reading Abbey). Yes, I did LOL
when I first saw it.

Reredos is a ‘an ornamental screen covering the wall at the back of an
altar’

Mrs McT

On Saturday, 17 June 2023 at 22:07:24 UTC+1, Chris wrote:
> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
> > Penny <sp...@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> >> I am currently listening to Joanna Trollope's 'The Choir', read by Nadia
> >> May. It took me a while to get in to it, too many characters (I'm getting
> >> worse at remembering names) and possibly not enough variation in 'voices'
> >> from the reader. I'm getting into it now, but...
> >>
> >> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
> >> word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
> >> often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
> >> in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
> >> learnt lawyering from a book.
> >>
> >> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
> >> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
> >> How should they be pronounced?
> >>
> >> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
> >> 'misericord'?
> >
> > I’ve heard ‘reredos’ pronounced ‘rare-e-dos’ which I believe is the
> > priest’s or monk’s privvy
> >
> Nope. That’s the necessarium (as shown in Reading Abbey). Yes, I did LOL
> when I first saw it.
>
> Reredos is a ‘an ornamental screen covering the wall at the back of an
> altar’

but "reredorter" is the same as a "necessarium"

In message <fssr8i5cshd9vivtr4qfeusomv9nrhm6p4@4ax.com> at Sat, 17 Jun
2023 19:14:03, Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> writes
[]
>I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
>mispronunciations. In other company it's fine if one follows up with "as my
>family call it/them", otherwise someone may 'help' by giving you the
>correct word/pronunciation - awkward :|

Ho yus, as a certain insurance dog might say. Can be extended too: my
mother's first husband's family had a servant who had accompanied them
when they fled the Nazis, but didn't have great English, and she
apparently always referred to certain spring flowers as "tulps and
icings" - which definitely became a family meme.
>
>In my case, having heard all my bothers refer to anti-queue shops, I didn't
>get as far as I might have done in an early primary school reading- level
>test :(

I'm sure I have similar examples, but as usual can't think of them.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Only dirty people need wash

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Jun 2023 10:39:19 +0100, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk>
> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>
>>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say ...
>>> 'misericord'?
>>
>> As you ask how I say them, not how they should be pronounced, I will say
>> to me the latter is miz-Ericord
>
> Miz Eric Ord?
> An unusual name for a woman ;)
>
> I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
> mispronunciations. In other company it's fine if one follows up with "as my
> family call it/them", otherwise someone may 'help' by giving you the
> correct word/pronunciation - awkward :|
>
> In my case, having heard all my bothers refer to anti-queue shops, I didn't
> get as far as I might have done in an early primary school reading- level
> test :(

They are often situated in Picture skew places too!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Tony Smith <agsmith578688@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, 17 June 2023 at 22:07:24 UTC+1, Chris wrote:
>> Mike McMillan <toodl...@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>> Penny <sp...@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
>>>> I am currently listening to Joanna Trollope's 'The Choir', read by Nadia
>>>> May. It took me a while to get in to it, too many characters (I'm getting
>>>> worse at remembering names) and possibly not enough variation in 'voices'
>>>> from the reader. I'm getting into it now, but...
>>>>
>>>> What often annoys me with audiobooks is poor pronunciation, but realise the
>>>> word 'close' in regard to cathedrals, and 'clerestory' are words I have
>>>> often read but seldom heard, so it could be that the way I pronounce them
>>>> in my head is wrong - like the Monty Python sketch about the chap who
>>>> learnt lawyering from a book.
>>>>
>>>> I pronounce 'close' as in 'close to' rather than 'close the door'.
>>>> I say 'clair-es-tory' rather than 'clear-story'.
>>>> How should they be pronounced?
>>>>
>>>> And while I'm thinking about church architecture, how do you say 'reredos',
>>>> 'misericord'?
>>>
>>> I’ve heard ‘reredos’ pronounced ‘rare-e-dos’ which I believe is the
>>> priest’s or monk’s privvy
>>>
>> Nope. That’s the necessarium (as shown in Reading Abbey). Yes, I did LOL
>> when I first saw it.
>>
>> Reredos is a ‘an ornamental screen covering the wall at the back of an
>> altar’
>
> but "reredorter" is the same as a "necessarium"
>
>
Reading Abbey is obviously sticking to the word used pre dissolution of
monasteries.

The reredorter or necessarium (the latter being the original term) was a
communal latrine found in mediaeval monasteries in Western Europe and later
also in some New World monasteries.
Etymology
The word is composed from dorter and the Middle English prefix rere-,
coming from Anglo-French rere "backward, behind," from Latin retro; it was
coined in the 19th century. The mediaeval term was necessarium (place of
necessity).[1]

Mrs McT

On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 08:18:20 -0000 (UTC), Chris
<chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> a gribouillé dans la poussière...

>The reredorter or necessarium (the latter being the original term) was a
>communal latrine found in mediaeval monasteries in Western Europe and later
>also in some New World monasteries.
>Etymology
>The word is composed from dorter and the Middle English prefix rere-,
>coming from Anglo-French rere "backward, behind," from Latin retro; it was
>coined in the 19th century. The mediaeval term was necessarium (place of
>necessity).

Dorter, according to various dictionaries, being a dormitory or bedroom -
behind the dorm?
reredorter = en suite
--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

On 17/06/2023 19:14, Penny wrote:
> I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
> mispronunciations.

YA*N*OU! One of my personal favourite usages is "furshance" - my son's
version of "furniture" 40-odd years ago. From the same source,
"windowsilf" and "wardrove" probably need no translation!

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

In message <kf85iqFe00U1@mid.individual.net> at Sun, 18 Jun 2023
11:45:46, Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> writes
>On 17/06/2023 19:14, Penny wrote:
>> I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
>> mispronunciations.
>
>YA*N*OU! One of my personal favourite usages is "furshance" - my son's
>version of "furniture" 40-odd years ago. From the same source,
>"windowsilf" and "wardrove" probably need no translation!
>
That's slightly different type - a childhood mispronunciation, that the
family keep using, often to the irritation of the child who originated
it, though hopefully they smile eventually. The most famous such example
is probably "Lillibet", allegedly how the young princess said her own
name. (Which, as a genealogist, I'm surprised how little it has changed
over the last two or three centuries, for such a long word/name; sure,
there are pet variations like Betty, but the full name retains its
spelling for quite a long way back; even the s-for-z variation is rare.)

There's another variant in such family words: the _useful_ one. My blind
friends use "clobbled", for generally mixed up, put out of sorts -
"that's got clobbled", "that's clobbled the ..." - which I _think_ was
something she said when a child (I've certainly not come across it
anywhere else), but the three of us use it.

Then there are family initialisms - I think I've mentioned our two
before - poohm for inebriated, and nacits for nice weather.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur". ("Anything is more impressive if
you say it in Latin")

Penny <spam@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Jun 2023 08:18:20 -0000 (UTC), Chris
> <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> a gribouillé dans la poussière...
>
>> The reredorter or necessarium (the latter being the original term) was a
>> communal latrine found in mediaeval monasteries in Western Europe and later
>> also in some New World monasteries.
>> Etymology
>> The word is composed from dorter and the Middle English prefix rere-,
>> coming from Anglo-French rere "backward, behind," from Latin retro; it was
>> coined in the 19th century. The mediaeval term was necessarium (place of
>> necessity).
>
> Dorter, according to various dictionaries, being a dormitory or bedroom -
> behind the dorm?
> reredorter = en suite

It’s that or change the straw…

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Jenny M Benson <NemoNews@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 17/06/2023 19:14, Penny wrote:
>> I'm sure I'm not alone in using deliberate family malapropisms or
>> mispronunciations.
>
> YA*N*OU! One of my personal favourite usages is "furshance" - my son's
> version of "furniture" 40-odd years ago. From the same source,
> "windowsilf" and "wardrove" probably need no translation!
>

I have used the term ‘Abluting’ and the past tense ‘Abluted’ for many years
[this I have derived from Abutions of course]; I was delighted to hear the
reading of a book on R4X recently where one character had ‘Abluted’ after
waking.

We do have family usages; many due to Wunderkind’s pronunciations as a
child. Waternails, crews, annunun, Lunnun just to mention a few. We also
(my fault I know) have Spoonerised words and names: In the kitchen, we have
a Sprainer Doon’ and a friend gave me ‘Perky Coffulator’.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan