Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:i2h7ci1a9mvlqtd3b1l1be4j2gfu1a1n5i@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 07:08:28 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> >Hellbeans, a thread on BP and old fart ailments with a zillion posts,
>>> >who knew?
>
>>> I'm just back from a week elsewhere, and this was exactly my thought,
>>> too
>
>>Just fuck off with your good genetics.
>
> <smug>
> I understand it's called "hybrid vigour" :-)

Bastard

On Friday, 28 July 2023 at 15:55:15 UTC+1, wessie wrote:
> Champ <ne...@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:i2h7ci1a9mvlqtd3b1l1be4j2gfu1a1n5i@
> 4ax.com:
> > On Wed, 26 Jul 2023 07:08:28 -0700 (PDT), Stephen Packer
> > <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> >Hellbeans, a thread on BP and old fart ailments with a zillion posts,
> >>> >who knew?
> >
> >>> I'm just back from a week elsewhere, and this was exactly my thought,
> >>> too
> >
> >>Just fuck off with your good genetics.
> >
> > <smug>
> > I understand it's called "hybrid vigour" :-)
> Bastard

Quite. What's wrong with a gene puddle (apart from the obvious).

RustyHinge wrote:

>
> I'm halfway down the other side then - sometimes I have a struggle
> getting into plastic milk bottles.

They don't suit you anyway :-)

--

Geoff
NTV650

Turby wrote:

> On 7/23/2023 6:35 PM, Boots wrote:
> > On 23/07/2023 17:15 Turby penned these words:
> > >
> >> To think of the
> > > government monitoring what all the people do is absurd. They have
> > > to pick and choose which ones out of the many hundreds of
> > > thousands They think might be useful. And that's not you.
> > >
> > Sure they're not listening in real time. I am of no interest. Hence
> > my comment ref my exercise scheme. Can they be keeping that data,
> > absolutely. It is unlikely ever to be of use but given we know that
> > the US and presumably others tries to obtain the encryption keys
> > for SIM cards[1] on the off chance that one of these billions might
> > one day be useful I'd bet it is kept.
> >
> It would take acres of warehouses to hold all that data, 99.99% of
> which is useless.

Like the grease in a wheel bearing? 0.1% for lubrication, the rest just
keeps the crap out.

> The cost would be ridiculous. In reality, they pick
> and choose likely targets. Which is how real criminals get away with
> it. They pick and choose individual cards, not every one.

Hmmm, Google seems to do a pretty good job of tracking my movements etc.

>
> OTOH, private corporations do have a reason to keep your data when
> they make money off it.

eg. TikTok and the rest. They know who you are, where you are, who your
friends are, what you like, what you don't like, your political views,
your work, hobbies, sexual orientaion and much more. Come election time
this is all pretty interesting stuff if you want to influence the
result via targeted (dis)information. Commercial in as much as
governments are willing to pay a fortune for this sort of influence.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:12:24 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
wrote:

>eg. TikTok and the rest. They know who you are, where you are, who your
>friends are, what you like, what you don't like, your political views,
>your work, hobbies, sexual orientaion and much more. Come election time
>this is all pretty interesting stuff if you want to influence the
>result via targeted (dis)information. Commercial in as much as
>governments are willing to pay a fortune for this sort of influence.

How much of that is stored on one's own PC, I wonder? Saves on
expensive servers and storage.

--

-Pip

On 30/07/2023 10:49, GeoffC wrote:
> RustyHinge wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm halfway down the other side then - sometimes I have a struggle
>> getting into plastic milk bottles.
>
> They don't suit you anyway :-)
>
As a onetime dairyman, I resemble that remark. Anyway, I'm more likely
to be <Scots> canned </Scots>.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

GeoffC wrote:

> Turby wrote:
>
> > On 7/23/2023 6:35 PM, Boots wrote:
> > > On 23/07/2023 17:15 Turby penned these words:
> > > >
> > >> To think of the
> > > > government monitoring what all the people do is absurd. They
> > > > have to pick and choose which ones out of the many hundreds of
> > > > thousands They think might be useful. And that's not you.
> > > >
> > > Sure they're not listening in real time. I am of no interest.
> > > Hence my comment ref my exercise scheme. Can they be keeping that
> > > data, absolutely. It is unlikely ever to be of use but given we
> > > know that the US and presumably others tries to obtain the
> > > encryption keys for SIM cards[1] on the off chance that one of
> > > these billions might one day be useful I'd bet it is kept.
> > >
> > It would take acres of warehouses to hold all that data, 99.99% of
> > which is useless.
>
>
> Like the grease in a wheel bearing? 0.1% for lubrication, the rest
> just keeps the crap out.
>
>
> > The cost would be ridiculous. In reality, they pick
> > and choose likely targets. Which is how real criminals get away with
> > it. They pick and choose individual cards, not every one.
>
> Hmmm, Google seems to do a pretty good job of tracking my movements
> etc.
>
>
> >
> > OTOH, private corporations do have a reason to keep your data when
> > they make money off it.
>
> eg. TikTok and the rest. They know who you are, where you are, who
> your friends are, what you like, what you don't like, your political
> views, your work, hobbies, sexual orientaion and much more. Come
> election time this is all pretty interesting stuff if you want to
> influence the result via targeted (dis)information. Commercial in as
> much as governments are willing to pay a fortune for this sort of
> influence.

--

Geoff
NTV650

Pipl wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 10:12:24 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > eg. TikTok and the rest. They know who you are, where you are, who
> > your friends are, what you like, what you don't like, your
> > political views, your work, hobbies, sexual orientaion and much
> > more. Come election time this is all pretty interesting stuff if
> > you want to influence the result via targeted (dis)information.
> > Commercial in as much as governments are willing to pay a fortune
> > for this sort of influence.
>
> How much of that is stored on one's own PC, I wonder? Saves on
> expensive servers and storage.

Haha true. It's not having the data that matters, it's knowing where to
find it if you need it.

--

Geoff
NTV650

Paul Carmichael wrote:

>
>
> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...

Just briefly then, if you please.
I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 30/07/2023 19:23, GeoffC wrote:
>
--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:ua6avh$30dim$1@dont-email.me:

> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
>
> Just briefly then, if you please.
> I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.
>
>
>

why not just google it?

e.g.

"And they conclude: In most fields of science the existence of
contradictory evidence usually leads to a paradigm shift or
modification of the theory in question, but in this case the
contradictory evidence has been largely ignored, simply because
it doesn't fit the prevailing paradigm."

https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/doubt-cast-on-wisdom-of-targeting-bad-cholesterol-to-curb-heart-disease-risk/

El Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:42:57 +0000, GeoffC escribió:

> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>
>
>>
>> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
>
> Just briefly then, if you please.
> I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.

Google won't let you down.

"In 2011, US doctors wrote nearly 250 million prescriptions for
cholesterol-lowering drugs, creating a US$18.5-billion market..."

“The drug industry in particular is very much in favour of target-based
measures,” says Joseph Drozda, a cardiologist and director of outcomes
research at Mercy Health in Chesterfield, Missouri. “It drives the use of
products.”

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/doubts-emerge-cholesterol-
level-target/

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:52:54 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>"And they conclude: In most fields of science the existence of
>contradictory evidence usually leads to a paradigm shift or
>modification of the theory in question...."

I'm reading a very interesting popular science book on exactly this,
at the moment: "The Hunt for Vulcan" by Thomas Levenson

It describes the way that Newton's theories of motion and gravity
became effectively unchallengable, so successful were they, and so
embedded in what physicists had done for 200 years. So when a tiny
mismatch was found between the calculated and measured orbits of
Mercury, the only potential solution considered was an undiscovered
planet (Vulcan), inside the orbit of Mercury.

It took Einstein to completely upend Newtonian physics, and provide a
new paradigm that correctly predicted the orbit of Mercury.

It's often said that science doesn't provide truth, it just provides
increasingly accurate approximations to truth. But sometimes those
small increases in precision require huge leaps in our understanding
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:42:57 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
wrote:

>Paul Carmichael wrote:
>
>
>>
>>
>> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
>
>Just briefly then, if you please.
>I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.

As did I a few weeks ago. My doctor's advice was to give statins a go
and see what happens. I can't really argue with that.

--
Colin Irvine
FJR1300A

El Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:16:32 +0100, Colin Irvine escribió:

> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:42:57 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
>>Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
>>
>>Just briefly then, if you please.
>>I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.
>
> As did I a few weeks ago. My doctor's advice was to give statins a go
> and see what happens. I can't really argue with that.

I suggest you don't research it then. Most that do research it find many
reasons to argue.

I've become rather fond of my cholesterol :-)

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 31/07/2023 16:16, Colin Irvine wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:42:57 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
>> Paul Carmichael wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
>>
>> Just briefly then, if you please.
>> I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.
>
> As did I a few weeks ago. My doctor's advice was to give statins a go
> and see what happens. I can't really argue with that.
>

I tried them, and fibrates, two decades ago.

I really must do so again, particularly after an ailments top trumps
chat with two UKRMers at Curborough on Saturday.
--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

wessie wrote:

> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:ua6avh$30dim$1@dont-email.me:
>
> > Paul Carmichael wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
> >
> > Just briefly then, if you please.
> > I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.
> >
> >
> >
>
> why not just google it?

Well, I did of course.
Got completely overwhelmed with an avalanche of info from both sides of
what seems to be a pretty polarised discussion as often seems to be the
case with medical matters especially when large pharma companies are
involved.
So the go-to solution in these situations is..........ask UKRM.
What I was wondering was: Is there anybody on here who has LDL levels
above the threshold for medication but has declined the meds? Going on
past wisdoms here, even just a couple of such cases would probably
swing my decision.
Try to think of it more of a 'tyres question' :-)

>
> e.g.
>
> "And they conclude: In most fields of science the existence of
> contradictory evidence usually leads to a paradigm shift or
> modification of the theory in question, but in this case the
> contradictory evidence has been largely ignored, simply because
> it doesn't fit the prevailing paradigm."
>
>
https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/doubt-cast-on-wisdom-of-targeting-bad-cholesterol-to-curb-heart-disease-risk/

and I wonder how much profit has to do with this?

--

Geoff
NTV650

GeoffC <me@invalid.nl> wrote:
> wessie wrote:
>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:ua6avh$30dim$1@dont-email.me:

>> why not just google it?

> Well, I did of course.
> Got completely overwhelmed with an avalanche of info from both sides of
> what seems to be a pretty polarised discussion as often seems to be the
> case with medical matters especially when large pharma companies are
> involved.
> So the go-to solution in these situations is..........ask UKRM.
> What I was wondering was: Is there anybody on here who has LDL levels
> above the threshold for medication but has declined the meds? Going on
> past wisdoms here, even just a couple of such cases would probably
> swing my decision.

About 20 years ago a blood test showed my cholesterol level was 7.2, and I
was given a prescription for statins (without being asked if I wanted
them). I threw it in the waste bin.

A chance meeting with an old friend brought forth the suggestion of using
margarine that contained plant sterols, e.g. Flora, and see how things
worked out, which I duly followed.

A year later another blood test showed my cholesterol level was down to 5.4
and I was offered statins, which I rejected.

20 years on and my cholesterol is now <5.0 and the subject of statins never
arises.

Another friend of many years had high cholesterol, and was put on statins.
Over a year he changed from being a very active guy to being close to a
shambling wreck, who was also trying to cope with his 90-year-old mother
who had dementia. I suggested he came off the statins, and in weeks he
began to return to his old self, and much more able to cope with his mum.

A lifetime smoker, drinker, unwise food eater, and motorcyclist, he lasted
to the age of 77.

HTH

--
Spike

On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 17:32:02 UTC+1, Spike wrote:

> A lifetime smoker, drinker, unwise food eater, and motorcyclist, he lasted
> to the age of 77.

I don't think 'lasted to the age of 77' is that much of a selling point to the demographic
here.

Heavens... for most of us 77 is closer than 40, and surely 40 was only a blink away.

"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:ua8m4l$3ahap$1@dont-email.me:

> wessie wrote:
>
>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:ua6avh$30dim$1@dont-email.me:
>>
>> > Paul Carmichael wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Don't get me going on the cholesterol con...
>> >
>> > Just briefly then, if you please.
>> > I have the pills/no pills chat with the doctor in 2 months.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> why not just google it?
>
> Well, I did of course.
> Got completely overwhelmed with an avalanche of info from both sides
> of what seems to be a pretty polarised discussion as often seems to be
> the case with medical matters especially when large pharma companies
> are involved.
> So the go-to solution in these situations is..........ask UKRM.
> What I was wondering was: Is there anybody on here who has LDL levels
> above the threshold for medication but has declined the meds? Going on
> past wisdoms here, even just a couple of such cases would probably
> swing my decision.
> Try to think of it more of a 'tyres question' :-)
>

as with any medication, you have to balance your medical risk factors
with the risk of side effects from the statin

Colin seems to be taking a pragmatic view in that he is going to try
statins based on advice. I'm sure he will read the leaflet and look out
for side effects, which are relatively rare.

there is strong evidence that if you have high cholesterol and a number
of other conditions needing treatment such as type 2 diabetes and
hypertension then adding a statin might have a benefit. If you do not
have other risk factors then the evidence for the benefit of statins
alone is sketchy.

I went onto statins some years ago due to needing meds to manage
hypertension. After some gastro symptoms emerged some time later, I was
advised by a consultant to drop the statins. This had no impact on the
symptoms so on further advice I resumed a statin.

>
>>
>> e.g.
>>
>> "And they conclude: In most fields of science the existence of
>> contradictory evidence usually leads to a paradigm shift or
>> modification of the theory in question, but in this case the
>> contradictory evidence has been largely ignored, simply because
>> it doesn't fit the prevailing paradigm."
>>
>>
> https://www.bmj.com/company/newsroom/doubt-cast-on-wisdom-of-
targeting-
> bad-cholesterol-to-curb-heart-disease-risk/
>
> and I wonder how much profit has to do with this?
>

you need to ask?

On 31/07/2023 17:48, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 17:32:02 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
>
>> A lifetime smoker, drinker, unwise food eater, and motorcyclist, he lasted
>> to the age of 77.
>
> I don't think 'lasted to the age of 77' is that much of a selling point to the demographic
> here.
>
> Heavens... for most of us 77 is closer than 40, and surely 40 was only a blink away.

What's the correct unit for less than a blink?

77 seems ever more like a nanoblink away lately.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

El Mon, 31 Jul 2023 16:05:41 +0000, GeoffC escribió:

> What I was wondering was: Is there anybody on here who has LDL levels
> above the threshold for medication but has declined the meds?

Yup.

I took them for a while after my ictus in 2011.

I got quite poorly and my muscles were wasting away.

I did some research and decided it was all a load of old bollocks.

I actually have revisions now and again and my state of cardio health has
not changed.

Actually, even listening to and giving credibility to all the statin
sales pitch, according to certain ratios, I'm within the limits. High HDL
etc.

Personally, I believe my body knows better than I do regarding what it
needs. If my liver wants to produce more than the average level of
something, it probably needs to.

One thing that may or may not influence opinions, is that from what I've
read, most of the recommendations are based on everybody being an obese
couch-potato.

If I drop dead tomorrow of statin deficiency, then you all know to ignore
my opinions.

Enjoy life. It's very short.

Toodlepip.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es

On 31/07/2023 17:31, Spike wrote:

> Another friend of many years had high cholesterol, and was put on statins.
> Over a year he changed from being a very active guy to being close to a
> shambling wreck, who was also trying to cope with his 90-year-old mother
> who had dementia. I suggested he came off the statins, and in weeks he
> began to return to his old self, and much more able to cope with his mum.
>
> A lifetime smoker, drinker, unwise food eater, and motorcyclist, he lasted
> to the age of 77.
>
> HTH
>

Twenty years ago I tried statins. The effects were not as severe as that
(or perhaps they did lasting damage).

I did, however, find on one visit to 'the chateau' when I forgot to pack
them, that after a few days I felt so much better than I had. Not just
an ant-placebo effect or just because I was on holiday, as on previous
trips when I was taking them I still felt sluggish and fog-brained.

They keep telling me my days are numbered (I've just about outlived my
mother who died of a heart attack at 75) if I don't take statins, or I
will have a stroke. BP medication seems to be just about keeping the
quack happy with mine, but the 'factors' are stacking up.

My aunt had a stroke in her 50's and went on to live to 92 fairly hale
and hearty except for a lopsided face. Not always such a good outcome
though.

Quality v. quantity of life, but a tricky trade-off in which the balance
shifts as you get nearer the finish line.

I will be harassed again on my next 'month of birth' clinic and I may do
some up to date research before then and give them a whirl again, or not.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

Champ wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Jul 2023 18:52:54 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
> > "And they conclude: In most fields of science the existence of
> > contradictory evidence usually leads to a paradigm shift or
> > modification of the theory in question...."
>
> I'm reading a very interesting popular science book on exactly this,
> at the moment: "The Hunt for Vulcan" by Thomas Levenson
>
> It describes the way that Newton's theories of motion and gravity
> became effectively unchallengable, so successful were they, and so
> embedded in what physicists had done for 200 years. So when a tiny
> mismatch was found between the calculated and measured orbits of
> Mercury, the only potential solution considered was an undiscovered
> planet (Vulcan), inside the orbit of Mercury.
>
> It took Einstein to completely upend Newtonian physics, and provide a
> new paradigm that correctly predicted the orbit of Mercury.
>
> It's often said that science doesn't provide truth, it just provides
> increasingly accurate approximations to truth. But sometimes those
> small increases in precision require huge leaps in our understanding

When you end up adjusting the facts to fit the theory instead of
t'other way around.
A La Trump.

--

Geoff
NTV650

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, 31 July 2023 at 17:32:02 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
>
>> A lifetime smoker, drinker, unwise food eater, and motorcyclist, he lasted
>> to the age of 77.
>
> I don't think 'lasted to the age of 77' is that much of a selling point to the demographic
> here.

> Heavens... for most of us 77 is closer than 40, and surely 40 was only a blink away.

Perhaps I should mention that he had a triple bypass 30 years ago;
considering his lifestyle I thought he did pretty well.

--
Spike