Turby wrote:

> On 11/1/2023 1:10 PM, Colin Irvine wrote:
> >On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On 11/1/2023 8:59 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of
> > > > Israel was created?
> > > >
> > > No. Palestine was never an independent country.
> >
> > Should that stop people from referring to natives of Palestine as
> > Palestinians?
> >
> Not at all.
> It's such a botched mess. It's been decades since I was there, but my
> experience taught me a lot. Many Israelis and Palestinians would like
> to co-exist and harbor no ill will toward each other. It's outside
> forces that are much of the problem. Hamas is a tyrannical force
> supported by Iran, Syria, and other Arab nations that care virtually
> nothing about Palestinians. They just want to see Israel fail. So,
> militant actions by Hamas, etc, drove the right wing into power in
> Israel and the liberals can only watch as it all goes to hell.

I think this is why terminology has become so important in this
dispute. You use "tyrannical". Hamas started out, I believe, as a
charitable organisation stemming from the Moslim Brotherhood (which is
why Egypt don't like them). It was even 'encouraged' by Israel in the
beginning who saw them as an alternative to the PLO. Things changed in
1982 when Israel invaded Lebanon to "get rid of Arafat and the PLO once
and for all" (sound familiar?). Hezbollah appeared around this time
also.
I've been reading a bit lately and for the last 75 years or more it has
been pretty much action, reaction all the way. Terms such as
"terrorist, barbarian, massacre, struggle, freedom fighter" etc could
be used to describe actions from both sides more or less in equal
proportions.
Speaking of outside forces, as long as America regards Israel as "our
unsinkable aircraft carrier in the Middle East" progress is going to be
difficult.
There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting over
the same piece of ground.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of Israel
>> was created?
>No. Palestine was never an independent country.

To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
couple of hundred years old
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 07:15:52 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
wrote:

>There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting over
>the same piece of ground.

Quite so. As Johnathan Freedland puts it so well in this piece

"This is where you wind up when you view this conflict in monochrome,
as a clash of right v wrong. Because the late Israeli novelist and
peace activist Amos Oz was never wiser than when he described the
Israel/Palestine conflict as something infinitely more tragic: a clash
of right v right. Two peoples with deep wounds, howling with grief,
fated to share the same small piece of land.

So, this is not a football game. It has no need for spectators who
root for one team against the other, goading their chosen side to go
to ever further extremes. This is not a game, for one grimly obvious
reason. There are no winners – only never-ending loss."

From
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/oct/27/tragedy-israel-palestine-conflict-horror
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@
4ax.com:

> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of Israel
>>> was created?
>
>>No. Palestine was never an independent country.
>
> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
> couple of hundred years old

1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago

GeoffC wrote:
> There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting over
> the same piece of ground.

"Equal"?

ogden wrote:

> GeoffC wrote:
> > There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting
> > over the same piece of ground.
>
> "Equal"?

Well, things that happened during the British mandate and thereafter
probably could have been done differently with hindsight(most accurate
of all the sciences I believe). But we are where we are. Somehow
somebody needs to find a solution that treats both sides equally. I
think that any solution that gives one side or the other the upper hand
is doomed to fail.
I spent 6mths in Israel in the 80's. It is a beautiful land with a lot
of potential. I spoke with many people of may different backgrounds but
one converstion stayed with me, with a Palestinian Christian and it
went somthing like this:

--

Geoff
NTV650

GeoffC wrote:

> ogden wrote:
>
> > GeoffC wrote:
> > > There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting
> > > over the same piece of ground.
> >
> > "Equal"?
>
> Well, things that happened during the British mandate and thereafter
> probably could have been done differently with hindsight(most accurate
> of all the sciences I believe). But we are where we are. Somehow
> somebody needs to find a solution that treats both sides equally. I
> think that any solution that gives one side or the other the upper
> hand is doomed to fail.
> I spent 6mths in Israel in the 80's. It is a beautiful land with a lot
> of potential. I spoke with many people of may different backgrounds
> but one converstion stayed with me, with a Palestinian Christian and
> it went somthing like this:

Sorry, unintentional cliff hanger:
Why don't you use you vote to change things.
I am not allowed to vote.
Why not?
I refused military service.
Why?
Because I might be called upon to kill my brothers.

He had a point.

--

Geoff
NTV650

GeoffC wrote:
> ogden wrote:
> > GeoffC wrote:
> > > There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting
> > > over the same piece of ground.
> >
> > "Equal"?
>
> Well, things that happened during the British mandate and thereafter
> probably could have been done differently with hindsight(most accurate
> of all the sciences I believe). But we are where we are. Somehow
> somebody needs to find a solution that treats both sides equally.

Hopefully you mean equitably, because the two sides in this conflict are far from equal.

ogden wrote:

> GeoffC wrote:
> > ogden wrote:
> > > GeoffC wrote:
> > > > There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams
> > > > fighting over the same piece of ground.
> > >
> > > "Equal"?
> >
> > Well, things that happened during the British mandate and
> > thereafter probably could have been done differently with
> > hindsight(most accurate of all the sciences I believe). But we are
> > where we are. Somehow somebody needs to find a solution that treats
> > both sides equally.
>
> Hopefully you mean equitably, because the two sides in this conflict
> are far from equal.

No and it won't work until they are.
Equality?

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 04:03:48 -0700 (PDT), ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com>
wrote:

>GeoffC wrote:
>> There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting over
>> the same piece of ground.
>
>"Equal"?

In the context of good/bad or right/wrong, I think.

--
Ace
http://www.chaletbeauroc.com/

On 02/11/2023 13:25, Ace wrote:
>On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 04:03:48 -0700 (PDT), ogden <eldaifo@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>GeoffC wrote:
>>> There is no good team/bad team IMHO, just two equal teams fighting over
>>> the same piece of ground.
>>
>>"Equal"?
>
>In the context of good/bad or right/wrong, I think.

Yes, exactly.

--
Geoff
NTV 650

Turby wrote:

> On 11/1/2023 4:15 AM, wessie wrote:
> >Ace <Ace@ch.com> wrote in
> news:bh94ki9d4lquqnrt2lqdjkasa9nscb6017@4ax.com:
> >
> >>On Mon, 30 Oct 2023 19:12:23 +0000, YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote:
> > >
> > > > But until the other day if someone had said something about a
> > > > river and a sea, plus the are between. I would have stared
> > > > blankly at them.
> > > >
> > > > Having read a bit, see what is being refereed to.
> > > >
> > > > But what I don't understand is that people seem to think
> > > > everyone should know that it implies what they say it implies
> > > > and not bothering to explain it.
> > >
> > > I've read and re-read this whole thread and still have no idea
> > > what you're all talking about - someone care to explain?
> > >
> >
> >
https://news.sky.com/story/andy-mcdonald-senior-labour-mp-suspended-over-deeply-offensive-comments-at-pro-palestine-rally-12996759
> >
> > and an explainer from the Guardian about the history of the phrase
> > and why it is problematic for the Labour Party
> >
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/31/from-the-river-to-the-sea-where-does-the-slogan-come-from-and-what-does-it-mean-israel-palestine
> >
>
> Crap. The term was used long before Hamas perverted it.

Yes, by the PLO from 1964-1988.
>
> About antisemitism - Arabs and Jews are both Semites.

Agreed.

--

Geoff
NTV650

Turby wrote:
> About antisemitism - Arabs and Jews are both Semites.

That's a weak linguistic gambit if ever I heard one, barely any better than "Gay used to mean happy".

The dictionary definition of _anti_semitism is hostility to Jews, regardless of what else might be considered Semitic.

The Amharic (Ethiopian) language is Semitic. Do you reckon antisemitism should apply to that too?

On 11/3/2023 10:17 AM, ogden wrote:
> Turby wrote:
>> About antisemitism - Arabs and Jews are both Semites.
>
> That's a weak linguistic gambit if ever I heard one, barely any better than "Gay used to mean happy".
>
> The dictionary definition of _anti_semitism is hostility to Jews, regardless of what else might be considered Semitic.
>
> The Amharic (Ethiopian) language is Semitic. Do you reckon antisemitism should apply to that too?

Yes.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 03/11/2023 17:17, ogden wrote:
> Turby wrote:
>> About antisemitism - Arabs and Jews are both Semites.
>
> That's a weak linguistic gambit if ever I heard one, barely any better than "Gay used to mean happy".
>
> The dictionary definition of _anti_semitism is hostility to Jews, regardless of what else might be considered Semitic.
>
> The Amharic (Ethiopian) language is Semitic. Do you reckon antisemitism should apply to that too?
>
Yes

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

On Friday, 3 November 2023 at 17:17:19 UTC, ogden wrote:
> Turby wrote:
> > About antisemitism - Arabs and Jews are both Semites.
> That's a weak linguistic gambit if ever I heard one, barely any better than "Gay used to mean happy".
>
> The dictionary definition of _anti_semitism is hostility to Jews, regardless of what else might be considered Semitic.
>
> The Amharic (Ethiopian) language is Semitic. Do you reckon antisemitism should apply to that too?
"

"We are suspended in language..."

On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 10:20:46 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@
>4ax.com:
>
>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of Israel
>>>> was created?
>>
>>>No. Palestine was never an independent country.
>>
>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
>> couple of hundred years old

>1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago

I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate me.

What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
news:555dki55bfvht5os3p16b8n16f1jer3ukp@4ax.com:

> On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 10:20:46 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
>>news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@ 4ax.com:
>>
>>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of
>>>>> Israel was created?
>>>
>>>>No. Palestine was never an independent country.
>>>
>>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
>>> couple of hundred years old
>
>>1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
>
> I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate me.
>

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system

The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we now
understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.

> What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
> what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century

I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now was
more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW1
and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th century
configuration that went through much rejigging over a century.

wessie wrote:

> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> news:555dki55bfvht5os3p16b8n16f1jer3ukp@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 10:20:46 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> > <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> > > news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@ 4ax.com:
> > >
> >>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of
> >>>>> Israel was created?
> >>>
> > > > > No. Palestine was never an independent country.
> >>>
> >>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
> >>> couple of hundred years old
> >
> > > 1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
> >
> > I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate
> > me.
> >
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
>
> The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we
> now understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.
>
>
> > What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
> > what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century
>
> I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now
> was more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end
> of WW1 and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th
> century configuration that went through much rejigging over a
> century.

--

Geoff
NTV650

wessie wrote:

> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> news:555dki55bfvht5os3p16b8n16f1jer3ukp@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 10:20:46 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> > <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> > > news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@ 4ax.com:
> > >
> >>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of
> >>>>> Israel was created?
> >>>
> > > > > No. Palestine was never an independent country.
> >>>
> >>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
> >>> couple of hundred years old
> >
> > > 1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
> >
> > I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate
> > me.
> >
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
>
> The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we
> now understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.
>
>
> > What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
> > what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century
>
> I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now
> was more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end
> of WW1 and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th
> century configuration that went through much rejigging over a
> century.

--

Geoff
NTV650

wessie wrote:

> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> news:555dki55bfvht5os3p16b8n16f1jer3ukp@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 10:20:46 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> > <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> > > news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@ 4ax.com:
> > >
> >>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of
> >>>>> Israel was created?
> >>>
> > > > > No. Palestine was never an independent country.
> >>>
> >>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
> >>> couple of hundred years old
> >
> > > 1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
> >
> > I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate
> > me.
> >
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
>
> The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we
> now understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.
>
>
> > What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
> > what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century
>
> I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now
> was more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end
> of WW1 and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th
> century configuration that went through much rejigging over a
> century.

There is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog. It's
on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous around there:

https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6

Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are dozens
of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border running
through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling with the exact
line up to around 1993 I believe. They opened a bypass in 2019, it took
40 years to plan and crosses the border 8 times in 6km.
Funny things nation states and borders.

--

Geoff
NTV650

wessie wrote:

> Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> news:555dki55bfvht5os3p16b8n16f1jer3ukp@4ax.com:
>
> > On Thu, 2 Nov 2023 10:20:46 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> > <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
> >
> >>Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote in
> > > news:9ar6kip494es0mcppuu91h0heq5srvdmm8@ 4ax.com:
> > >
> >>> On Wed, 1 Nov 2023 11:03:21 -0700, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>> Didn't the Palestinians live freely there, before the state of
> >>>>> Israel was created?
> >>>
> > > > > No. Palestine was never an independent country.
> >>>
> >>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
> >>> couple of hundred years old
> >
> > > 1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
> >
> > I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate
> > me.
> >
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
>
> The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we
> now understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.
>
>
> > What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
> > what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century
>
> I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now
> was more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end
> of WW1 and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th
> century configuration that went through much rejigging over a
> century.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 11/4/2023 4:00 PM, GeoffC wrote:
>
> There is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog. It's
> on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous around there:
>
> https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6
>
> Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are dozens
> of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border running
> through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling with the exact
> line up to around 1993 I believe. They opened a bypass in 2019, it took
> 40 years to plan and crosses the border 8 times in 6km.
> Funny things nation states and borders.
>
That's insane. I can't imagine the hassles of social services. Who's
responsible for police, fire, emergency medical... taxation... the list
goes on. How do they deal with all that?

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

wessie wrote:

> The Peace of Westphalia
It's motorhomes all the way down...

Turby wrote:

> On 11/4/2023 4:00 PM, GeoffC wrote:
> >
> > There is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog.
> > It's on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous
> > around there:
> >
> > https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6
> >
> > Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are
> > dozens of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border
> > running through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling
> > with the exact line up to around 1993 I believe. They opened a
> > bypass in 2019, it took 40 years to plan and crosses the border 8
> > times in 6km. Funny things nation states and borders.
> >
> That's insane. I can't imagine the hassles of social services. Who's
> responsible for police, fire, emergency medical... taxation... the
> list goes on. How do they deal with all that?

Well, the EU helps and before that there was BeNeLux but before that I
suppose it just relied on local co-operation because it's been that way
since feudal times although Belgium and Holland have only been separate
sovereign countries since about 200 years ago.
There are a number of cross-border agreements, police from both
countries are allowed to cross the border in "hot pursuit" and have
legal powers in both countries. There is a special category in both
countries tax laws for "border workers" who live in one but work in the
other. Health care is already EU wide. The library is shared and manned
bij Dutch and Belgians. Schools are separate so cultural differences
remain. I shudder to think what might happen if either country
unilaterally decided to leave the EU though.
Apparently your front door decides where you live though there must be
enough people who wake up in NL, go for a dump in B and then back to NL
for breakfast. :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv8t0x34A8w

It is comical at times but anybody trying to implement a two state
solution would do good to go here and have a look.
In my book it is a living demonstration of the fact that co-operation
trumps competition - every time.

ps. I buy fuel in Belgium atm, it is 20% cheaper!

--

Geoff
NTV650