On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:21:14 -0000 (UTC), wessie
<willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:

>>>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
>>>> couple of hundred years old
>>>1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
>> I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate me.
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system

>The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we now
>understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.

I'm indebted. Every day's a school day, as they say.

However, animations of borders over time, such as
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2400-years-of-european-history/ (skip
the first ~1000 years or:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k

.....show a hell of a lot of fucking about after 1648

>> What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
>> what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century

>I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now was
>more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW1
>and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th century
>configuration that went through much rejigging over a century.

Well, yes. I guess I was thinking about the (now) understood major
western states such as Germany and Italy. But change just carries on
- you and I grew up with the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia being
fixed places on the map, and they're all gone now
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 06/11/2023 13:50, Champ wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Nov 2023 19:21:14 -0000 (UTC), wessie
> <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote:
>
>>>>> To be fair, the whole concept of "independent country" is only a
>>>>> couple of hundred years old
>
>>>> 1648 is more then a couple of hundred years ago
>
>>> I don't understand the 1648 reference, but I'm sure you'll educate me.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_system
>
>> The Peace of Westphalia at the end of the 30 years war led to what we now
>> understand as a Nation State, now enshrined in the UN Charter.
>
> I'm indebted. Every day's a school day, as they say.
>
> However, animations of borders over time, such as
> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2400-years-of-european-history/ (skip
> the first ~1000 years or:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k
>
> ....show a hell of a lot of fucking about after 1648
>
>>> What I really meant was that most of europe didn't settle down into
>>> what we recognise today as countries until the 19th century
>
>> I guessed at what you meant but I cannot agree. Europe as it is now was
>> more a factor of the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of WW1
>> and the falling of the Iron Curtain after 1989. So a 20th century
>> configuration that went through much rejigging over a century.
>
> Well, yes. I guess I was thinking about the (now) understood major
> western states such as Germany and Italy. But change just carries on
> - you and I grew up with the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia being
> fixed places on the map, and they're all gone now

While Rutland comes and goes...

(And Rutland [county] Scout badges were highly sought-after to adorn
camp-fire blankets.)

One for Champ:

IIRC the Isle of Man lost its independence following the '45 and its
aftermath, then regained it (partially) a while later.

--
Rusty Hinge
To err is human. To really foul things up requires a computer and the BOFH.

Champ wrote:
> - you and I grew up with the USSR, Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia being
> fixed places on the map, and they're all gone now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GK-9Qtf-rBk

On 06/11/2023 10:23, GeoffC wrote:
> It is comical at times but anybody trying to implement a two state
> solution would do good to go here and have a look.
Good point

> In my book it is a living demonstration of the fact that co-operation
> trumps competition - every time.

Absolutely - but it never satisfies the megalomanics[1]

Chris
[1] Neither those of commerce nor those of religion or others who just
like the sound of their own voice.
--
The Deuchars BBB#40 COFF#14
Yamaha XV750SE & Suzuki GS550t
http://www.Deuchars.org.uk

On 06/11/2023 13:50, Champ wrote:
> However, animations of borders over time, such as
> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2400-years-of-european-history/ (skip
> the first ~1000 years or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k
> ....show a hell of a lot of fucking about after 1648

In a similar vein... <https://xkcd.com/1688/>

--
Bruce Horrocks
FJR1300AS

On 07/11/2023 15:12 Pip Luscher penned these words:
> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> Wrote in message:
>> is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog. It's
>> on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous around
>> there:
>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6
>> Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are dozens
>> of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border running
>> through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling with the exact
>
> Spike Milligan wrote a parody of this exact situation, including a
> pub with a border running through it, in Puckoon. The villagers
> all crowded to get served at the end of the bar where the tax on
> beer was lower.

Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the pub was in
wales and part in england. There was different licencing requirements depending
which bar you were in, this would have be around 1990.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote in
news:qb8p1k-c0h.ln1@bilbo.eternal-september.org:

> On 07/11/2023 15:12 Pip Luscher penned these words:
>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> Wrote in message:
>>> is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog. It's
>>> on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous around
>>> there:
>>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6
>>> Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are
>>> dozens of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border
>>> running through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling with
>>> the exact
>>
>> Spike Milligan wrote a parody of this exact situation, including a
>> pub with a border running through it, in Puckoon. The villagers
>> all crowded to get served at the end of the bar where the tax on
>> beer was lower.
>
>
> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
> around 1990.
>

the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and part
in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell, wholly
in England. There was a pub on the corner of the Newland Road, an
ostepathy clinic now. Called Bush House so maybe the Bush Inn. The Boat
Inn across the Wye footbridge is in Penallt, Wales but has their car
park in Redbrook, England. The rest of the Forest of Dean has a border
with Wales that is in the middle of the River Wye

There is a hotel on the Brecon/Monmouthshire border, name escapes me. In
days gone, Breconshire was dry on Sundays but Monmouthshire was not.
They could only serve beer in one of the bars.

Llanymynech between Oswestry & Welshpool straddles the border. One
remaining pub in Wales, 2 in England. The Lion used to straddle the
border but that is closed now.

wessie <willnotwork@tesco.net> wrote in
news:XnsB0B561224FD03wtymmmsas@135.181.20.170:

> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote in
> news:qb8p1k-c0h.ln1@bilbo.eternal-september.org:
>
>> On 07/11/2023 15:12 Pip Luscher penned these words:
>>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> Wrote in message:
>>>> is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog. It's
>>>> on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous around
>>>> there:
>>>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6
>>>> Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are
>>>> dozens of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border
>>>> running through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling
>>>> with the exact
>>>
>>> Spike Milligan wrote a parody of this exact situation, including a
>>> pub with a border running through it, in Puckoon. The villagers
>>> all crowded to get served at the end of the bar where the tax on
>>> beer was lower.
>>
>>
>> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
>> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
>> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
>> around 1990.
>>
>
>
> the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and part
> in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell,
> wholly in England. There was a pub on the corner of the Newland Road,
> an ostepathy clinic now. Called Bush House so maybe the Bush Inn. The
> Boat Inn across the Wye footbridge is in Penallt, Wales but has their
> car park in Redbrook, England. The rest of the Forest of Dean has a
> border with Wales that is in the middle of the River Wye
>
> There is a hotel on the Brecon/Monmouthshire border, name escapes me.
> In days gone, Breconshire was dry on Sundays but Monmouthshire was
> not. They could only serve beer in one of the bars.
>
> Llanymynech between Oswestry & Welshpool straddles the border. One
> remaining pub in Wales, 2 in England. The Lion used to straddle the
> border but that is closed now.
>

I forgot to say, the Bush is wholly in Wales as the Newland Road has the
boundary on the opposite sode of the road.

On 07/11/2023 09:32, wessie wrote:
> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote in
> news:qb8p1k-c0h.ln1@bilbo.eternal-september.org:
>
>> On 07/11/2023 15:12 Pip Luscher penned these words:
>>> "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> Wrote in message:
>>>> is a village not far from here, Baarle Nassau/Baarle Hertog. It's
>>>> on the Dutch Belgian border which is far from contiguous around
>>>> there:
>>>> https://maps.app.goo.gl/JEDZFR12xc72vnsG6
>>>> Ostensibly it is on the Dutch side of the border but there are
>>>> dozens of Belgian enclaves. I think at least one pub has a border
>>>> running through the middle of the bar. They were still jiggling with
>>>> the exact
>>>
>>> Spike Milligan wrote a parody of this exact situation, including a
>>> pub with a border running through it, in Puckoon. The villagers
>>> all crowded to get served at the end of the bar where the tax on
>>> beer was lower.
>>
>>
>> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
>> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
>> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
>> around 1990.
>>
>
>
> the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and part
> in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell, wholly
<snip>

land. The Lion used to straddle the
> border but that is closed now.

I was trying to work it out as well, having visited the pub in Wales on
the other side from Redbrook a couple of times.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Mon, 6 Nov 2023 22:49:56 +0000, Bruce Horrocks
<07.013@scorecrow.com> wrote:

>On 06/11/2023 13:50, Champ wrote:
>> However, animations of borders over time, such as
>> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/2400-years-of-european-history/ (skip
>> the first ~1000 years or: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzXoc8y2G0k
>> ....show a hell of a lot of fucking about after 1648

>In a similar vein... <https://xkcd.com/1688/>

Ha! Thank you!

Top left, under "The Holy Roman Empire", if it exists then "1805 or
earlier (before this point, the modern idea of a complete political
map of the world gets hard to apply)"

Which *was* the point I was trying to make :-)

As an aside, I love the Lord of the Rings / Discworld route down the
middle, and particularly love "Colorado or Danger Radioactive
Exclusion Zone?" and "Does the warning mention the spiders?" (upper
left)
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On 07/11/2023 17:32 wessie penned these words:
> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote
>>
>> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
>> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
>> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
>> around 1990.
>
> the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and part
> in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell, wholly
> in England. There was a pub on the corner of the Newland Road, an
> ostepathy clinic now. Called Bush House so maybe the Bush Inn. The Boat
> Inn across the Wye footbridge is in Penallt, Wales but has their car
> park in Redbrook, England. The rest of the Forest of Dean has a border
> with Wales that is in the middle of the River Wye

I was staying in the england side, a farm belonging to the parents of a school
friend. Cannot now recall the village, the pub had a garden with a stream
through it but other than that no idea.

--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 07/11/2023 22:50, Boots wrote:
> On 07/11/2023 17:32 wessie penned these words:
>> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote
>>>
>>> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
>>> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
>>> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
>>> around 1990.
>>
>> the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and part
>> in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell, wholly
>> in England. There was a pub on the corner of the Newland Road, an
>> ostepathy clinic now. Called Bush House so maybe the Bush Inn. The Boat
>> Inn across the Wye footbridge is in Penallt, Wales but has their car
>> park in Redbrook, England. The rest of the Forest of Dean has a border
>> with Wales that is in the middle of the River Wye
>
> I was staying in the england side, a farm belonging to the parents of a school
> friend. Cannot now recall the village, the pub had a garden with a stream
> through it but other than that no idea.
>
>

Do your own research!

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote in
news:bjrq1k-n34.ln1@bilbo.eternal-september.org:

> On 07/11/2023 17:32 wessie penned these words:
>> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote
>>>
>>> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
>>> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
>>> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
>>> around 1990.
>>
>> the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and
>> part in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell,
>> wholly in England. There was a pub on the corner of the Newland Road,
>> an ostepathy clinic now. Called Bush House so maybe the Bush Inn. The
>> Boat Inn across the Wye footbridge is in Penallt, Wales but has their
>> car park in Redbrook, England. The rest of the Forest of Dean has a
>> border with Wales that is in the middle of the River Wye
>
> I was staying in the england side, a farm belonging to the parents of
> a school friend. Cannot now recall the village, the pub had a garden
> with a stream through it but other than that no idea.
>
>

The Boat Inn, over the footbridge from Redbrook has a stream in the garden

You can see it in this photo, where it passes under the road and into the
River Wye. It runs down the side of the terrace at the rear.
https://pubsandbeer.co.uk/picts/8217a.jpeg

The Boat is in Penallt and that side of the river has always been Wales in
my lifetime.

As stated above, most people park in the English part of Redbrook by the
football field https://maps.app.goo.gl/CCwEXB62pB18e4Y4A and walk over the
footbridge[1] bolted to the skeleton of the old railway bridge.

[1] as often seen in the Netflix series, Sex Education

On 08/11/2023 10:39, wessie wrote:
> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote in
> news:bjrq1k-n34.ln1@bilbo.eternal-september.org:
>
>> On 07/11/2023 17:32 wessie penned these words:
>>> Boots <news@millhouse-communications.co.uk> wrote
>>>>
>>>> Sure I was in a pub in or near the forest of dean where part of the
>>>> pub was in wales and part in england. There was different licencing
>>>> requirements depending which bar you were in, this would have be
>>>> around 1990.
>>>
>>> the only village I can think of that is part in Monmouthshire and
>>> part in Gloucestershire is Redbrook. Only one pub left now, the Bell,
>>> wholly in England. There was a pub on the corner of the Newland Road,
>>> an ostepathy clinic now. Called Bush House so maybe the Bush Inn. The
>>> Boat Inn across the Wye footbridge is in Penallt, Wales but has their
>>> car park in Redbrook, England. The rest of the Forest of Dean has a
>>> border with Wales that is in the middle of the River Wye
>>
>> I was staying in the england side, a farm belonging to the parents of
>> a school friend. Cannot now recall the village, the pub had a garden
>> with a stream through it but other than that no idea.
>>
>>
>
> The Boat Inn, over the footbridge from Redbrook has a stream in the garden
>
> You can see it in this photo, where it passes under the road and into the
> River Wye. It runs down the side of the terrace at the rear.
> https://pubsandbeer.co.uk/picts/8217a.jpeg

IIRC, they chill the cider and beer with that.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/