On 04/01/2024 12:01, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 12:30:44 +0000, Pete Fisher
> <peter@ps-fisher.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 03/01/2024 11:53, Champ wrote:
>>> It looks like Trump is nailed on for the Republican nomination, which
>>> is the first of manuy things I find impossible to grok about current
>>> US politics.
>
>> "grock". You what now?
>
> grok. No 'c'
>
>> You are Elon Musk and I claim my five free tweets.
>
> The word is from Robert Heinlein's novel Stranger in a Strange Land.
> Written in 1961 i.e. 10 years before Musk was born. I'm confident I
> was using the word, as a pretentious teenager, before Musk had learnt
> to read

I think it was also used in the 2000AD (not to be confused with drok!)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:

[snip]

> Also, from wikipedia:
> "Grok

[snip]

> As an SF fan, programmer, and someone at least hippie-adjacent, I
> think it's a perfectly find word for me to use :-)

ITYM 'perfectly cromulent word'

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 1/4/2024 2:07 AM, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 04/01/2024 09:24, Pete Fisher wrote:
>> On 04/01/2024 07:43, Boots wrote:
>>> On 04/01/2024 04:35 Bruce Horrocks penned these words:
>>>> no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't going
>>>> to suggest abolishing the term limits.
>>>
>>> I'd not bet against a workaround like Putain did in Russia by
>>> installing a
>>> puppet or declaring an emergency which means we can't hold elections
>>> right now.
>>
>> "Enabling Act" or similar weasel worded bill will be the big red flag.
>> An Executive Order perhaps - given a Supreme Court packed with his
>> appointees.
>
> Even though they are his Appointees, they have not been towing the line
> so far, and have actually upheld the Law against the orange gibbon
> numerous times, so I cannot see him, even if getting back in power,
> whcih I doubt, getting Laws changed to save him.
>

The Insurrection Act allows him to deploy military forces within the
country. Common sense may not be applicable here.

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On Thursday 4 January 2024 at 12:03:34 UTC, Champ wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:35:54 +0000, Bruce Horrocks
> <07....@scorecrow.com> wrote:
>
> >I don't disagree with any of this but, TBH, I want him to win so that in
> >4 years it will all be over. [1] Whereas, if he loses this time he'll be
> >back again.
>
> >[1] Because, no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't going
> >to suggest abolishing the term limits.
> I think you're being incredibly naive

Dangerously naive. If he wins there will be hell to pay for the world:

- Any support for Ukraine, gone (even if it's disappearing already).
- China will take Taiwan.
- Russia will start looking at that corridor (Suwalski?) in
Poland to reunite Kaliningrad with Belarus.
- America again exits from all climate change controls, digs and
burns more coal, oil, gas etc.

I could go on but it's far too depressing.

Actually, maybe Bruce is right that within four years of the election it will
all be over...

If Trump loses this time chances are he's not around or physically capable
next time.

Stephen Packer <stephen.packer@gmail.com> wrote:

> If Trump loses this time chances are he's not around or physically capable
> next time.

He's incapable of fulfilling the duties of the office right now,
full stop. He certainly proved his unsuitability during his 1st
(and hopefully only) term. Anyone who supports that bag of shit,
knowing what he is, and what he stands for, is no friend of the USA.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

On 1/4/2024 5:06 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 03/01/2024 22:43, Turby wrote:
>> On 1/3/2024 12:35 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>> On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler used.
>>
>> Germans didn't expect Hitler to rule for 12 years when they elected
>> him in '33.
>>
> 1st Godwin's of 2024?
>
Hell, I did that back on the 1st.
This piece in the LA Times on NYE clarifies it:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-12-31/donald-trump-dictatorship-germany-1930s-threats-democracy

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 05/01/2024 00:04, olsonm@tiny.invalid wrote:
> He's incapable of fulfilling the duties of the office right now,
> full stop. He certainly proved his unsuitability during his 1st
> (and hopefully only) term. Anyone who supports that bag of shit,
> knowing what he is, and what he stands for, is no friend of the USA.

Well, we know that, but his Voters clearly dont. It was the same here,
Boris Johnson got a large majority, when it was clear he was totally
unsuitable to be a Countrys Leader.(slightly less worse than the USA, as
BJ didnt have anywhere near as much power).

It amazes me, still, that people vote for these idiots when it is clear
they are not suitable, but, one defence they have is look at their
oppostion (in the UK, it was Corbyn), they are hardly worthy either.
I suppose the MAGA voters look at Biden and say the same. He hasnt
excelled has he, he's better than Trump, by a long way, but no way could
he be described as a great President, I'd say below average, but when
your Opposition, Trump, is only slightly more intelligent than an orang
utan, then you game doesnt have to be raised much to beat the idiot.
Better Politicians all round is what is required, but it seems to be
going in the opposite direction.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

YTC#1 wrote:
> On 03/01/2024 22:43, Turby wrote:
>> On 1/3/2024 12:35 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>> On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
>>>>> Apparentl, the latest survey suggest that 36% (up from 29%) of
>>>>> voters in the USA don't believe Biden won fairly.
>>>>>
>>>> It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler used. How
>>>> anyone could vote for a man who bragged of committing sexual assault,
>>>> mocked the disabled, was convicted of racism, and stiffed hundreds of
>>>> contractors (all in public view,) is beyond belief. His followers
>>>> have stuffed the courts, gerrymandered voting districts, threatened
>>>> vote counters, etc. It's just mind-boggling. And "normal" political
>>>> conservatives are putting up with it.
>>> I don't disagree with any of this but, TBH, I want him to win so that
>>> in 4 years it will all be over. [1] Whereas, if he loses this time
>>> he'll be back again.
>>>
>>> [1] Because, no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't
>>> going to suggest abolishing the term limits.
>>>
>> Well, his assistants who are testifying against him now won't work for
>> him again. He will only have sycophants doing his bidding. He has said
>> there will be "retribution" against his enemies and "heads will roll."
>> “We pledge to you that we will root out the communists” and “the radical
>> left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.”
>> And he is planning to deploy troops to crush protests.
>>
>> Germans didn't expect Hitler to rule for 12 years when they elected him
>> in '33.
>>
>>
> 1st Godwin's of 2024?

Godwin made an exception -
https://web.archive.org/web/20231226002925/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/20/godwins-law-trump-hitler-comparisons/

On 05/01/2024 01:48, Turby wrote:
> On 1/4/2024 5:06 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
>> On 03/01/2024 22:43, Turby wrote:
>>> On 1/3/2024 12:35 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>>> On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>> It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler used.
>>>
>>> Germans didn't expect Hitler to rule for 12 years when they elected
>>> him in '33.
>>>
>> 1st Godwin's of 2024?
>>
> Hell, I did that back on the 1st.
> This piece in the LA Times on NYE clarifies it:
> https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-12-31/donald-trump-dictatorship-germany-1930s-threats-democracy
>
>
Seems to be a common theme in most papaers (well, ok, maybe not right
wing ones).

meanwhile, we have a prime example.
<url:https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/04/belarusian-president-alexander-lukashenko-signs-law-granting-him-lifelong-immunity-from-prosecution>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 05/01/2024 09:17, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>> On 03/01/2024 22:43, Turby wrote:
>>> On 1/3/2024 12:35 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
>>>> On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
>>>>>> Apparentl, the latest survey suggest that 36% (up from 29%) of
>>>>>> voters in the USA don't believe Biden won fairly.
>>>>>>
>>>>> It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler used.
>>>>> How anyone could vote for a man who bragged of committing sexual
>>>>> assault, mocked the disabled, was convicted of racism, and stiffed
>>>>> hundreds of contractors (all in public view,) is beyond belief. His
>>>>> followers have stuffed the courts, gerrymandered voting districts,
>>>>> threatened vote counters, etc. It's just mind-boggling. And
>>>>> "normal" political conservatives are putting up with it.
>>>> I don't disagree with any of this but, TBH, I want him to win so
>>>> that in 4 years it will all be over. [1] Whereas, if he loses this
>>>> time he'll be back again.
>>>>
>>>> [1] Because, no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't
>>>> going to suggest abolishing the term limits.
>>>>
>>> Well, his assistants who are testifying against him now won't work
>>> for him again. He will only have sycophants doing his bidding. He has
>>> said there will be "retribution" against his enemies and "heads will
>>> roll." “We pledge to you that we will root out the communists” and
>>> “the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of
>>> our country.” And he is planning to deploy troops to crush protests.
>>>
>>> Germans didn't expect Hitler to rule for 12 years when they elected
>>> him in '33.
>>>
>>>
>> 1st Godwin's of 2024?
>
> Godwin made an exception -
> https://web.archive.org/web/20231226002925/https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/12/20/godwins-law-trump-hitler-comparisons/
>

How long before we start comparing leaders to Trump?

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 04/01/2024 23:06, Stephen Packer wrote:
> On Thursday 4 January 2024 at 12:03:34 UTC, Champ wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Jan 2024 20:35:54 +0000, Bruce Horrocks
>> <07....@scorecrow.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I don't disagree with any of this but, TBH, I want him to win so that in
>>> 4 years it will all be over. [1] Whereas, if he loses this time he'll be
>>> back again.
>>
>>> [1] Because, no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't going
>>> to suggest abolishing the term limits.
>> I think you're being incredibly naive
>
> Dangerously naive. If he wins there will be hell to pay for the world:
>
> - Any support for Ukraine, gone (even if it's disappearing already).
> - China will take Taiwan.
> - Russia will start looking at that corridor (Suwalski?) in
> Poland to reunite Kaliningrad with Belarus.

And the Bosphorus strait, for the Black Sea fleet to access the Med.
Turkey needs to keep looking over its shoulder.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 05/01/2024 08:24, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 00:04, olsonm@tiny.invalid wrote:
>> He's incapable of fulfilling the duties of the office right now,
>> full stop.  He certainly proved his unsuitability during his 1st
>> (and hopefully only) term. Anyone who supports that bag of shit,
>> knowing what he is, and what he stands for, is no friend of the USA.
>
>
> Well, we know that, but his Voters clearly dont. It was the same here,
> Boris Johnson got a large majority, when it was clear he was totally
> unsuitable to be a Countrys Leader.(slightly less worse than the USA, as
> BJ didnt have anywhere near as much power).
>
> It amazes me, still, that people vote for these idiots when it is clear
> they are not suitable, but, one defence they have is look at their

Point of order, we *don't* vote for a leader, their party does.
We just vote for a local politician who may well be a member of the
party that wins.

> oppostion (in the UK, it was Corbyn), they are hardly worthy either.
> I suppose the MAGA voters look at Biden and say the same. He hasnt
> excelled has he, he's better than Trump, by a long way, but no way could
> he be described as a great President, I'd say below average, but when
> your Opposition, Trump, is only slightly more intelligent than an orang
> utan, then you game doesnt have to be raised much to beat the idiot.

Point of order 2.
You may be underestimating the intelligence of Orangutans and doing them
a disservice.
https://orangutan.com/orangutan-facts/orangutan-intelligence/

> Better Politicians all round is what is required, but it seems to be
> going in the opposite direction.
>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 05/01/2024 09:54, YTC#1 wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 08:24, Alan Lee wrote:

>> It amazes me, still, that people vote for these idiots when it is
>> clear they are not suitable, but, one defence they have is look at their
>
> Point of order, we *don't* vote for a leader, their party does.
> We just vote for a local politician who may well be a member of the
> party that wins.

Well, yes, but come on, the USA vote is/was for Trump, not the
Republicans, and BJ Vs JC was the same here. Ask people in the UK who
their MP is, and many won't know, but they know which Party they voted for.

>> .... Trump, is only slightly more intelligent than an
>> orang utan, then you game doesnt have to be raised much to beat the
>> idiot.
>
> Point of order 2.
> You may be underestimating the intelligence of Orangutans and doing them
> a disservice.
> https://orangutan.com/orangutan-facts/orangutan-intelligence/

Yes, you're right.

--
Remove the '+' and replace with 'plus' to reply by email

On 05/01/2024 10:02, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 09:54, YTC#1 wrote:
>> On 05/01/2024 08:24, Alan Lee wrote:
>
>>> It amazes me, still, that people vote for these idiots when it is
>>> clear they are not suitable, but, one defence they have is look at their
>>
>> Point of order, we *don't* vote for a leader, their party does.
>> We just vote for a local politician who may well be a member of the
>> party that wins.
>
> Well, yes, but come on, the USA vote is/was for Trump, not the
> Republicans, and BJ Vs JC was the same here. Ask people in the UK who
> their MP is, and many won't know, but they know which Party they voted for.

They may have voted for a party, but they did not vote for a leader. We
are not a republic, yet.

This misconception needs to be eradicated.

>

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

Champ wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 11:56:09 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On 1/1/2024 9:38 AM, Champ wrote:
> >> Looks like the USA made it to 2024 too. Well done
> >
> > "Well done"?
> > Not sure about that. We're on the verge of electing a dictator.
>
> One day at a time
>
> Mind you, the 2024 US election looks ominous from lots of directions.
> It looks like Trump is nailed on for the Republican nomination, which
> is the first of manuy things I find impossible to grok about current
> US politics. And then it looks like it'll at least be a close race
> between him and Biden. That race is going to be so full of dirty
> tricks, misinformation and foreign interference that it make 2016 look
> like a different age.
>
> If Trump wins, then the world will turn very dark, very quickly. If
> Biden wins, I wouldn't be surprised to see armed militias on the
> streets that make 6th Jan look like a kids tea party.
>
> As the chinese curse goes, looks like you're going to live in
> interesting times.

Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a lamp
post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last time he was
very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the world (largely)
alone. Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
Ukraine which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the cash
to sock one to Putin. Then there is Israel, I wonder what Trump would
have done there?
I feel sorry for the locals if Trump gets back in but as far as Europe
is concerned he is the Evil of two Lessers. I think I'm more of an
Obama person really.

--

Geoff
NTV650

Bruce Horrocks wrote:

> On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
> > > Apparentl, the latest survey suggest that 36% (up from 29%) of
> > > voters in the USA don't believe Biden won fairly.
> > >
> > It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler used.
> > How anyone could vote for a man who bragged of committing sexual
> > assault, mocked the disabled, was convicted of racism, and stiffed
> > hundreds of contractors (all in public view,) is beyond belief.
> > His followers have stuffed the courts, gerrymandered voting
> > districts, threatened vote counters, etc. It's just mind-boggling.
> > And "normal" political conservatives are putting up with it.
>
> I don't disagree with any of this but, TBH, I want him to win so that
> in 4 years it will all be over. [1] Whereas, if he loses this time
> he'll be back again.
>
>
> [1] Because, no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't
> going to suggest abolishing the term limits.

But he has offspring and frankly, from what I've seen they look even
scarier than him.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 03/01/2024 20:35, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
>>> Apparentl, the latest survey suggest that 36% (up from 29%) of voters
>>> in the USA don't believe Biden won fairly.
>>>
>> It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler used. How
>> anyone could vote for a man who bragged of committing sexual assault,
>> mocked the disabled, was convicted of racism, and stiffed hundreds of
>> contractors (all in public view,) is beyond belief. His followers have
>> stuffed the courts, gerrymandered voting districts, threatened vote
>> counters, etc. It's just mind-boggling. And "normal" political
>> conservatives are putting up with it.
>
> I don't disagree with any of this but, TBH, I want him to win so that in
> 4 years it will all be over. [1] Whereas, if he loses this time he'll be
> back again.
>
> [1] Because, no matter how deluded his supporters are, they aren't going
> to suggest abolishing the term limits.

You mean the deluded supporters who tried to overturn an election result?

On 05/01/2024 08:24, Alan Lee wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 00:04, olsonm@tiny.invalid wrote:
>> He's incapable of fulfilling the duties of the office right now,
>> full stop.  He certainly proved his unsuitability during his 1st
>> (and hopefully only) term. Anyone who supports that bag of shit,
>> knowing what he is, and what he stands for, is no friend of the USA.
>
> Well, we know that, but his Voters clearly dont. It was the same here,
> Boris Johnson got a large majority, when it was clear he was totally
> unsuitable to be a Countrys Leader.(slightly less worse than the USA, as
> BJ didnt have anywhere near as much power).

It's a bit different. Trump got 46.8% of the vote, Biden got 51.3%. In
the UK, it was the number of MPs elected under the atrocious FPTP system
that gave Johnson the big majority - he actually got 43.6% of the vote
so more people were against him (or the Tories) than for him.

> It amazes me, still, that people vote for these idiots when it is clear
> they are not suitable, but, one defence they have is look at their
> oppostion (in the UK, it was Corbyn), they are hardly worthy either.

Corbyn was constantly crucified by the right-wing press and betrayed by
the Blairite faction of the PLP. He was far better than the wretched
Starmer. Corbyn's policies would have been not far away from the Heath
government policies, which shows how far politics has moved to the right.

> I suppose the MAGA voters look at Biden and say the same. He hasnt
> excelled has he, he's better than Trump, by a long way, but no way could
> he be described as a great President, I'd say below average, but when
> your Opposition, Trump, is only slightly more intelligent than an orang
> utan, then you game doesnt have to be raised much to beat the idiot.
> Better Politicians all round is what is required, but it seems to be
> going in the opposite direction.

We need both better politicians and better voters. The trouble with
universal suffrage is that everybody has the vote.

YTC#1 wrote:

> On 05/01/2024 01:48, Turby wrote:
> > On 1/4/2024 5:06 AM, YTC#1 wrote:
> > > On 03/01/2024 22:43, Turby wrote:
> > > > On 1/3/2024 12:35 PM, Bruce Horrocks wrote:
> > > > > On 03/01/2024 15:31, Turby wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > It's insane. Trump is literally using language that Hitler
> > > > > > used.
> > > >
> > > > Germans didn't expect Hitler to rule for 12 years when they
> > > > elected him in '33.
> > > >
> > > 1st Godwin's of 2024?
> > >
> > Hell, I did that back on the 1st.
> > This piece in the LA Times on NYE clarifies it:
> >
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-12-31/donald-trump-dictatorship-germany-1930s-threats-democracy
> >
> >
> Seems to be a common theme in most papaers (well, ok, maybe not right
> wing ones).

Not new, it's been a recurring theme since Umberto Ecco's "Ur-Fascism"
essay in 1995.

https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html

......and still people don't listen!

>
> meanwhile, we have a prime example.
> <url:
>
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/04/belarusian-president-alexander-lukashenko-signs-law-granting-him-lifelong-immunity-from-prosecution>

of a clown, he'll disappear once he has outlived his usefulness, as
they so often do.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 05/01/2024 12:53, Mike Fleming wrote:

>
> Corbyn was constantly crucified by the right-wing press and betrayed by
> the Blairite faction of the PLP. He was far better than the wretched
> Starmer. Corbyn's policies would have been not far away from the Heath
> government policies, which shows how far politics has moved to the right.
>

I lived through and remember the Heath government. Who knows what Corbyn
would have done with the levers of power, but his stance on 'Europe' was
very far from Heath's.

>
> We need both better politicians and better voters. The trouble with
> universal suffrage is that everybody has the vote.

The sentiment is right but implementation tricky.

Bring back financial or property ownership eligibility for voting?

IQ test before voting? Some of the most 'stupid', rabid right wingers I
ever met were at MENSA meetings.

--
Moto Morini 2C/375
Gilera 175 Sport, Husqvarna 401 Svartpilen
Honda CB250RS (Not Waynetta!)
"Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in the reality"

YTC#1 <ytc1@ytc1.co.uk> wrote in news:un8j7n$40qr$2@dont-email.me:

> On 05/01/2024 09:17, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>> YTC#1 wrote:
>> Godwin made an exception -
>> https://web.archive.org/web/20231226002925/https://www.washingtonpost.
>> com/opinions/2023/12/20/godwins-law-trump-hitler-comparisons/
>>
>
> How long before we start comparing leaders to Trump?
>

Start?

Johnson
Deranged chap in Argentine
Twat in Hungary

and many other populist cunts have had comparisons

Mike Fleming wrote:
> It's a bit different. Trump got 46.8% of the vote, Biden got 51.3%. In
> the UK, it was the number of MPs elected under the atrocious FPTP system
> that gave Johnson the big majority - he actually got 43.6% of the vote
> so more people were against him (or the Tories) than for him.

The USA has an 'Electoral College', which gives similar results to the
UKs representative system -

In 2016, Trump won with 46.1% of the vote compared to Clinton's 48.2%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_in_which_the_winner_lost_the_popular_vote

GeoffC wrote:
> Champ wrote:
>> If Trump wins, then the world will turn very dark, very quickly. If
>> Biden wins, I wouldn't be surprised to see armed militias on the
>> streets that make 6th Jan look like a kids tea party.
>>
>> As the chinese curse goes, looks like you're going to live in
>> interesting times.
>
> Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a lamp
> post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last time he was
> very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the world (largely)
> alone. Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
> Ukraine which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
> seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the cash
> to sock one to Putin.

I don't think we can blame Biden for Ukraine.
Without support from the USA (either directly, or implicitly from NATO
membership), Europe may find Russia impinging on them somewhat further...

Trump's view on NATO ? "I don’t give a shit".

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 08:24:55 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
wrote:

>I suppose the MAGA voters look at Biden and say the same. He hasnt
>excelled has he, he's better than Trump, by a long way, but no way could
>he be described as a great President, I'd say below average

Actually, by all metrics Biden has done a really good job.
Unfortunately, he and his people are not very good at promoting his
achievments
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:53:42 +0000, Mike Fleming <mike@tauzero.co.uk>
wrote:

>Corbyn was constantly crucified by the right-wing press
This is true

>and betrayed by the Blairite faction of the PLP.
but this I would dispute. Most of the PLP knew he was a liability,
but cabinet and party unity was (for the Labour Party) surprisingly
good.

>He was far better than the wretched Starmer.
You can call me a Blairite or a centrist dad, but Starmer is the only
sort of Labour leader that the UK, for better or worse, is going to
vote for.

>Corbyn's policies would have been not far away from the Heath
>government policies, which shows how far politics has moved to the right.
Given how much the world has changed since the 1970s, this comparisojn
doesn't really hold water.

--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old