On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:18:15 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
wrote:

>Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a lamp
>post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last time he was
>very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the world (largely)
>alone.

Really? He pulled the US out of the Paris accords for global warming.
Which, IMO, had a big impact on the rest of the world

>Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
>Ukraine

'ang on a mo! You're saying it's Biden's fault Putin invaded
Ukraine?!?!

>which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
>seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the cash
>to sock one to Putin.
uh? Are you suggesting the USA *shouldn't* send money and weapons to
Ukraine? Which would mean a fairly straightforward russian victory?
Or are you suggesting the the USA should have committed it's own
troops? Which would definitely have been a significant escalation of
the conflict

>I feel sorry for the locals if Trump gets back in but as far as Europe
>is concerned he is the Evil of two Lessers. I think I'm more of an
>Obama person really.
OK, I'd like you to please set out how Europe, or anywhere else on
planet Earth, would be better off under a Trump Presidency and tan
Biden.
Take your time
--
Champ
neal at champ dot org dot uk

I don't know, but I been told
You never slow down, you never grow old

Sqirrel99 wrote:

> GeoffC wrote:
> > Champ wrote:
> > > If Trump wins, then the world will turn very dark, very quickly.
> > > If Biden wins, I wouldn't be surprised to see armed militias on
> > > the streets that make 6th Jan look like a kids tea party.
> > >
> > > As the chinese curse goes, looks like you're going to live in
> > > interesting times.
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a
> > lamp post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last
> > time he was very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the
> > world (largely) alone. Basically we've had a lot more wars with
> > Biden, specifically Ukraine which has impinged much more directly
> > on Europe than the US who seem to be prepared to fight to the last
> > Ukrainian, pouring in the cash to sock one to Putin.
>
> I don't think we can blame Biden for Ukraine.

No, that all started further back in 2013/14 but he certainly saw an
excellent opportunity to cause problems for Putin simply by pouring in
money and guns and letting the Ukrainians do the dirty work.

> Without support from the USA (either directly, or implicitly from
> NATO membership), Europe may find Russia impinging on them somewhat
> further...
>
So where are we now? stalemate, hundreds of thousands of dead, Putin
will probably get his way in the end anyway because the US is losing
interest and will probably move onto the following theatre of war and
all this to bring us back to roughly how things were in 2013/14 can't
really see a huge advantage gained by anybody except for the weapons
manufacturers.

> Trump's view on NATO ? "I don’t give a shit".
Well, considering there is a reasonable chance he might be de facto in
charge of it in the near future, it might be worth pondering.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:18:15 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
wrote:

>I feel sorry for the locals if Trump gets back in but as far as Europe
>is concerned he is the Evil of two Lessers. I think I'm more of an
>Obama person really.

You can only play the cards you're dealt.

--
Colin Irvine
R1250RS

Champ wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:18:15 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a
> > lamp post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last
> > time he was very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the
> > world (largely) alone.
>
> Really? He pulled the US out of the Paris accords for global warming.
> Which, IMO, had a big impact on the rest of the world

True, but maybe the Paris accord wasn't perfect, all the more reason to
get working on an alternative. Realistically I can't really the see the
US signing up to anything that is not to their advantage.

>
> > Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
> > Ukraine
>
> 'ang on a mo! You're saying it's Biden's fault Putin invaded
> Ukraine?!?!

No not Biden, it started back in 2013/14, he just saw a golden
opportunity. All this carnage and it looks like things will end up back
as they were in 2013, Putin will get his way because the US and Europe
are not prepared to play the long game and he knows that.

>
> > which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
> > seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the
> > cash to sock one to Putin.
> uh? Are you suggesting the USA shouldn't send money and weapons to
> Ukraine? Which would mean a fairly straightforward russian victory?
> Or are you suggesting the the USA should have committed it's own
> troops? Which would definitely have been a significant escalation of
> the conflict

Which is why the whole project (move Ukraine from the Russian sphere of
influence to the West) was doomed from the start. Putin was never going
to let that happen, just took a bit of carnage and a futile war to
prove it. We are headed inexorably back to the situation pre 2013/14
with Ukraine losing hundred's of thousands of lives and the US not a
lot. They don't give a shit about Ukraine itself just the geopolitical
jockeying. In the end the US will simply shrug and move on and Putin is
gambling that won't be long now.

>
> > I feel sorry for the locals if Trump gets back in but as far as
> > Europe is concerned he is the Evil of two Lessers. I think I'm more
> > of an Obama person really.
> OK, I'd like you to please set out how Europe, or anywhere else on
> planet Earth, would be better off under a Trump Presidency and tan
> Biden.
> Take your time

Haven't a clue what he'll get up to in the future but I would be
willing to bet that the war in Ukraine would have been less likely if
he had won, with all the human and financial consequences thereof.
Trump fights his battles with his gob, financial skullduggery,
deception and fraud. Unpleasant as that might be I think it is still
preferable to all out war. How many more Vietnams, Iraqs, Syrias or
Ukraines would you accept "to make the world a better place"?

--

Geoff
NTV650

Champ <neal@champ.org.uk> wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 08:24:55 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com>
> wrote:
>
>>I suppose the MAGA voters look at Biden and say the same. He hasnt

Who GAF what those cretins think? Of course they don't like Biden, it's
baked into their world view, the same one that makes them think Trump is
a good choice for president.

>>excelled has he, he's better than Trump, by a long way, but no way could
>>he be described as a great President, I'd say below average
>
> Actually, by all metrics Biden has done a really good job.
> Unfortunately, he and his people are not very good at promoting his
> achievments

I agree. If the _only_ thing Biden ever did (it's not, by a long shot)
was to keep Trump out of the WHite House, I'd still say he has been
an overwhelming success.

--
FJR1300A, GL1000, KLR650A6F, EX250J9A, DR200SE, Vespa Ciao

GeoffC wrote:
>> Trump's view on NATO ? "I don’t give a shit".
> Well, considering there is a reasonable chance he might be de facto in
> charge of it in the near future, it might be worth pondering.

I may not have been clear enough -
Trump said "I don’t give a shit about NATO".

Sqirrel99 wrote:

> GeoffC wrote:
> > > Trump's view on NATO ? "I don’t give a shit".
> > Well, considering there is a reasonable chance he might be de facto
> > in charge of it in the near future, it might be worth pondering.
>
> I may not have been clear enough -
> Trump said "I don’t give a shit about NATO".

Ah yes, I heard him once propounding on his view that Europeans ahould
pay more for NATO. So, once it's all been paid for and it's there, what
to do with it? Which brings me to one of the biggest perils with Trump,
if his views and plans seem dangerous then they are nothing compared to
some of the maniacs he uses as advisers. He is very open to bad advice
seems to be the lesson of history.

--

Geoff
NTV650

Colin Irvine wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:18:15 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
> > I feel sorry for the locals if Trump gets back in but as far as
> > Europe is concerned he is the Evil of two Lessers. I think I'm more
> > of an Obama person really.
>
> You can only play the cards you're dealt.

Isn't there usually an option to throw in the whole hand, good and bad
and take the risk that a new hand contains more good than the old one?
I agree with you though, I just don't agree with the "enemy of my enemy
is my friend" theory. Biden might be less worse than Trump but he still
ain't exactly perfect.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 05/01/2024 16:08, GeoffC wrote:
> Champ wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:18:15 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a
>>> lamp post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last
>>> time he was very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the
>>> world (largely) alone.
>>
>> Really? He pulled the US out of the Paris accords for global warming.
>> Which, IMO, had a big impact on the rest of the world
>
> True, but maybe the Paris accord wasn't perfect, all the more reason to
> get working on an alternative. Realistically I can't really the see the
> US signing up to anything that is not to their advantage.
>
>>
>>> Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
>>> Ukraine
>>
>> 'ang on a mo! You're saying it's Biden's fault Putin invaded
>> Ukraine?!?!
>
> No not Biden, it started back in 2013/14, he just saw a golden
> opportunity. All this carnage and it looks like things will end up back
> as they were in 2013, Putin will get his way because the US and Europe
> are not prepared to play the long game and he knows that.
>
>>
>>> which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
>>> seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the
>>> cash to sock one to Putin.
>> uh? Are you suggesting the USA shouldn't send money and weapons to
>> Ukraine? Which would mean a fairly straightforward russian victory?
>> Or are you suggesting the the USA should have committed it's own
>> troops? Which would definitely have been a significant escalation of
>> the conflict
>
> Which is why the whole project (move Ukraine from the Russian sphere of
> influence to the West) was doomed from the start. Putin was never going

You do know Ukraine was one of the signatories for the dissolution of
the USSR?

And then they agreed to have the nuclear warheads removed, with a treaty
with Russia that they would not invade?

And that when Russia tried to get their man into the hot seat, the
people said otherwise as they wanted to be part of Russia.

> to let that happen, just took a bit of carnage and a futile war to
> prove it. We are headed inexorably back to the situation pre 2013/14
> with Ukraine losing hundred's of thousands of lives and the US not a
> lot. They don't give a shit about Ukraine itself just the geopolitical
> jockeying. In the end the US will simply shrug and move on and Putin is
> gambling that won't be long now.

You sound very relaxed about it.

>
>>
>>> I feel sorry for the locals if Trump gets back in but as far as
>>> Europe is concerned he is the Evil of two Lessers. I think I'm more
>>> of an Obama person really.
>> OK, I'd like you to please set out how Europe, or anywhere else on
>> planet Earth, would be better off under a Trump Presidency and tan
>> Biden.
>> Take your time
>
> Haven't a clue what he'll get up to in the future but I would be
> willing to bet that the war in Ukraine would have been less likely if
> he had won, with all the human and financial consequences thereof.

It would have still happened, and there would have been no US support,
and Ukraine would no longer exist (it would probably be call The Ukraine
again).

> Trump fights his battles with his gob, financial skullduggery,
> deception and fraud. Unpleasant as that might be I think it is still
> preferable to all out war. How many more Vietnams, Iraqs, Syrias or
> Ukraines would you accept "to make the world a better place"?
>

The answer is none.
However, if people sit back, roll over and expect to have their tummy
tickled, the rope around the neck comes as a shock.

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 10:02:09 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:

> Well, yes, but come on, the USA vote is/was for Trump, not the
> Republicans.

This is ... a gloss of what actually happens, which is promoted by Big
Media, following their own agendas. I'm sure you can imagine that
actuality is a bit more complex.

Although Trump's name and party affiliation are on the ballot in the
general election, when voters select him, they actually cast their
vote for state "Electors" who are pledged to vote for Trump, not for
Trump himself or for the Republican Party. The Electoral College
sends their (certified) results to the President of the Senate (that
is, the Vice President of the U.S.). The election results are opened
and counted before a joint session of the incoming Congress on the 6th
of January. This is all detailed in the 12th Amendment to the
Constitution and thus is fundamental Federal law.

+ https://www.archives.gov/founding-docs/amendments-11-27#toc-amendment-xii

Most states assign their Electors — winner take all — to whichever
candidate receives the most popular votes, but Maine and Nebraska
don't, and other states haven't from time to time.

Trick Question: Where does the Electoral College meet?

Trick Answer: They don't. The 12th Amendment forbids it. The
Electors meet "in their respective states" on the first Monday after
the second Wednesday in December in a general-election year. This is
to foreclose the (very real) possibility of collusion among Electors
in different states to subvert their own state's citizens' wishes.
The tendency to collude has been amply demonstrated during the handful
of instances in which the Electoral College did not deliver a
**majority** of Electors to any Presidential candidate and threw the
election into the House of Representatives. Log rolling ensued. (The
Senate chooses the Vice President when there's no majority of
Electors.)

Instead of meeting, the Electors in the several states send (sealed)
results to the Senate by registered mail, and there are multiple
copies circulated to various state and Federal officials that may be
compared in case of miscarriage or dispute.

+ https://www.congressionalinstitute.org/2020/12/14/how-the-electoral-college-votes-and-how-the-votes-are-counted/.

The 2000 election is infamous for the Supreme Court's having
intervened to halt a general manual recount in Florida. The halt was
to conserve the integrity of previously certified results at the "safe
harbor" deadline in advance of the Electoral College vote.

+ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidential_election_recount_in_Florida

The Florida vote was effectively a tie and could hardly be awarded to
either candidate, but there was enough procedural funny business to
occupy the attention of Big Media for weeks. In this case the state's
Electors were decisive in the national results, and George Bush won.
The situation demonstrated that, although the Electoral College system
had more or less shielded the Presidency from local voting
controversies for over two centuries, still there was ongoing implicit
reliance on the equity of grass-roots participation everywhere, not
just in Florida.

There have been instances in which competing Electors in a state have
certified conflicting election results.

+ https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/dec/16/instagram-posts/no-key-swing-states-did-not-cast-electoral-votes-b/

There have been instances in which Electors did not vote as directed
by their state's citizens, but these situations appear not to have
affected the ultimate outcomes.

--
Worst Case

On 05/01/2024 13:03, GeoffC wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> meanwhile, we have a prime example.
>> <url:
>>
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/jan/04/belarusian-president-alexander-lukashenko-signs-law-granting-him-lifelong-immunity-from-prosecution>
>
> of a clown, he'll disappear once he has outlived his usefulness, as
> they so often do.

I assume he lives in a bungalow, wears gloves all the time, and never
flies anywhere.

On 05/01/2024 14:49, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> Mike Fleming wrote:
>> It's a bit different. Trump got 46.8% of the vote, Biden got 51.3%. In
>> the UK, it was the number of MPs elected under the atrocious FPTP
>> system that gave Johnson the big majority - he actually got 43.6% of
>> the vote so more people were against him (or the Tories) than for him.
>
> The USA has an 'Electoral College', which gives similar results to the
> UKs representative system -
>
> In 2016, Trump won with 46.1% of the vote compared to Clinton's 48.2%
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_presidential_elections_in_which_the_winner_lost_the_popular_vote

I know. Also Dubya beat Al Gore despite losing the popular vote. The
electoral college means that there isn't one man, one vote, but the
proportion of a vote that said man (or woman) has is proportional to the
sparseness of population of the state in which he/she resides.

Trump's intention is to finish up with the Vetinari system of one man,
one vote - he is the man, and he gets the vote.

On 05/01/2024 15:02, Sqirrel99 wrote:
> GeoffC wrote:
>> Champ wrote:
>>> If Trump wins, then the world will turn very dark, very quickly.  If
>>> Biden wins, I wouldn't be surprised to see armed militias on the
>>> streets that make 6th Jan look like a kids tea party.
>>> As the chinese curse goes, looks like you're going to live in
>>> interesting times.
>>
>> Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a lamp
>> post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last time he was
>> very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the world (largely)
>> alone. Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
>> Ukraine which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
>> seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the cash
>> to sock one to Putin.
>
> I don't think we can blame Biden for Ukraine.
> Without support from the USA (either directly, or implicitly from NATO
> membership), Europe may find Russia impinging on them somewhat further...
>
> Trump's view on NATO ?  "I don’t give a shit".

Western Europe is being stupid in letting this drag on. The NATO forces,
with or without the US, should move in to Ukraine and push Russia out.
Doesn't really matter if it starts a world war, the Middle East is about
to go up, then the US will go in against Iran and Russia will back Iran
so there will be a world war anyway. Think of the beneficial effect it
will have on the human population, plus the nuclear winter will put an
end to global warming.

On 05/01/2024 15:20, Champ wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 12:18:15 -0000 (UTC), "GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl>
> wrote:
>
>> Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a lamp
>> post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last time he was
>> very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the world (largely)
>> alone.
>
> Really? He pulled the US out of the Paris accords for global warming.
> Which, IMO, had a big impact on the rest of the world

And cut off funding to the WHO. And when the world needs a Doctor, WHO
is the one to call.

On 1/5/2024 10:32 AM, "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
> On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 10:02:09 +0000, Alan Lee <alan@darkroom.plus.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, yes, but come on, the USA vote is/was for Trump, not the
>> Republicans.
>
> This is ... a gloss of what actually happens, which is promoted by Big
> Media, following their own agendas. I'm sure you can imagine that
> actuality is a bit more complex.
>
(snip volume of info)
Jeezus. Why do you know so much about it? (Having been a registered
voter in the system for 55 years.)

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 1/5/2024 12:24 AM, Alan Lee wrote:
>
> I suppose the MAGA voters look at Biden and say the same. He hasnt
> excelled has he, he's better than Trump, by a long way, but no way could
> he be described as a great President, I'd say below average,

Actually, he's been well above average. He's accomplished a lot without
the support of Congress, but because Republicans control so much of
Washington, for him to get any laws passed is substantial.
Here's the official record:
https://www.whitehouse.gov/therecord/

--
The erstwhile Thomas
FJR1300, R1200GS & ST1100 (in memoriam)

On 05/01/2024 22:34, Mike Fleming wrote:
> On 05/01/2024 15:02, Sqirrel99 wrote:
>> GeoffC wrote:
>>> Champ wrote:
>>>> If Trump wins, then the world will turn very dark, very quickly.  If
>>>> Biden wins, I wouldn't be surprised to see armed militias on the
>>>> streets that make 6th Jan look like a kids tea party.
>>>> As the chinese curse goes, looks like you're going to live in
>>>> interesting times.
>>>
>>> Don't get me wrong, the sooner Trump is hanging upside down from a lamp
>>> post with his balls in his gob the better, but....... Last time he was
>>> very busy with domestic policy and left the rest of the world (largely)
>>> alone. Basically we've had a lot more wars with Biden, specifically
>>> Ukraine which has impinged much more directly on Europe than the US who
>>> seem to be prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, pouring in the cash
>>> to sock one to Putin.
>>
>> I don't think we can blame Biden for Ukraine.
>> Without support from the USA (either directly, or implicitly from NATO
>> membership), Europe may find Russia impinging on them somewhat further...
>>
>> Trump's view on NATO ?  "I don’t give a shit".
>
> Western Europe is being stupid in letting this drag on. The NATO forces,
> with or without the US, should move in to Ukraine and push Russia out.
> Doesn't really matter if it starts a world war,

Well, it does, because it will affect us all.
Personally I don't want to live in a nuclear wasteland[1].

Nor would I like that for my grandkids.

[1] Assuming I survive

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

YTC#1 wrote:

> On 05/01/2024 16:08, GeoffC wrote:
>

<SNIP>

> >
> > Which is why the whole project (move Ukraine from the Russian
> > sphere of influence to the West) was doomed from the start. Putin
> > was never going
>
> You do know Ukraine was one of the signatories for the dissolution of
> the USSR?
>
> And then they agreed to have the nuclear warheads removed, with a
> treaty with Russia that they would not invade?

Poroshenko (UA) terminated that agreement in 2018

There was also a Budapest agreement signed by Russia, the US and the
UK, in which parties agreed to refrain from "economic coercion" yeah
right like inviting Ukraine to join the EU

>
> And that when Russia tried to get their man into the hot seat, the
> people said otherwise as they wanted to be part of Russia.
>
> > to let that happen, just took a bit of carnage and a futile war to
> > prove it. We are headed inexorably back to the situation pre 2013/14
> > with Ukraine losing hundred's of thousands of lives and the US not a
> > lot. They don't give a shit about Ukraine itself just the
> > geopolitical jockeying. In the end the US will simply shrug and
> > move on and Putin is gambling that won't be long now.
>
> You sound very relaxed about it.

Not much anybody can do about it

>
> >

<SNIP>

>
> > Trump fights his battles with his gob, financial skullduggery,
> > deception and fraud. Unpleasant as that might be I think it is still
> > preferable to all out war. How many more Vietnams, Iraqs, Syrias or
> > Ukraines would you accept "to make the world a better place"?
> >
>
> The answer is none.
> However, if people sit back, roll over and expect to have their tummy
> tickled, the rope around the neck comes as a shock.

Sounds like the rhetoric of the '60s and '70s, reds under the bed Cold
War period. Domino effect etc.

--

Geoff
NTV650

On 06/01/2024 21:25 YTC#1 penned these words:
> Personally I don't want to live in a nuclear wasteland

Would we notice the difference after 13 years of misrule?
--
Ian

"Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of
the last priest"

On 06/01/2024 17:35, GeoffC wrote:
> YTC#1 wrote:
>
>> On 05/01/2024 16:08, GeoffC wrote:
>>
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>>
>>> Which is why the whole project (move Ukraine from the Russian
>>> sphere of influence to the West) was doomed from the start. Putin
>>> was never going
>>
>> You do know Ukraine was one of the signatories for the dissolution of
>> the USSR?
>>
>> And then they agreed to have the nuclear warheads removed, with a
>> treaty with Russia that they would not invade?
>
>
> Poroshenko (UA) terminated that agreement in 2018

After the 2013 invasion/violation.

>
> There was also a Budapest agreement signed by Russia, the US and the
> UK, in which parties agreed to refrain from "economic coercion" yeah
> right like inviting Ukraine to join the EU
Again, the invite was *after* Russia had invaded for the 2nd time.

(But I agree with how worthless treaties are)

--
Bruce Porter
"The internet is a huge and diverse community but mainly friendly"
http://ytc1.blogspot.co.uk/
There *is* an alternative! http://www.openoffice.org/

On 07/01/2024 17:21, YTC#1 wrote:
>On 06/01/2024 17:35, GeoffC wrote:
>> YTC#1 wrote:
>>
>>> On 05/01/2024 16:08, GeoffC wrote:
>>>
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Which is why the whole project (move Ukraine from the Russian
>>>> sphere of influence to the West) was doomed from the start. Putin
>>>> was never going
>>>
>>> You do know Ukraine was one of the signatories for the dissolution of
>>> the USSR?
>>>
>>> And then they agreed to have the nuclear warheads removed, with a
>>> treaty with Russia that they would not invade?
>>
>>
>> Poroshenko (UA) terminated that agreement in 2018
>
>After the 2013 invasion/violation.
>
>>
>> There was also a Budapest agreement signed by Russia, the US and the
>> UK, in which parties agreed to refrain from "economic coercion" yeah
>> right like inviting Ukraine to join the EU
>Again, the invite was *after* Russia had invaded for the 2nd time.
>
>(But I agree with how worthless treaties are)
>

Well, if you take things back just a bit further, the Budapest Memorandum of
1994 actually worked quite well until 2008 when Ukraine announced it's
intention/aspiration (MAP) to join NATO. (Remind me who became US vp around
that time ;-) ). That of course went down like a lead balloon in the
Kremlin and things have just been a series of action/reaction ever since,
culminating in the shit-show in which we now find ourselves.

--
Geoff
NTV 650

On Fri, 5 Jan 2024 16:17:38 -0800, Turby <xsurf@xmail.com> wrote:

> Jeezus. Why do you know so much about it?

Age, high school history teacher, Wikipedia, and age.

Also my Dad was one of the few Democrats in town and had to serve in
one or another official capacity in the precinct at nearly every
election where a balanced representation of Democrats and Republicans
was called for. There was a state polling regulations handbook that
he had to be familiar with on these occasions, and I suppose he
studied it by trying to explain it to me and my brother. It was a
thick book. There is much about paper balloting that does not meet
the eye. There is much about the decorum of holding public elections
that is not appreciated by the Media.

--
Worst Case

"Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:

<SNIP>

>
> If it helps, imagine the scene on 20 Jan 2025: Trump ascends to the
> podium but Chief Justice Roberts is nowhere to be found.

Could also be interesting if Trump is jailed sometime this year and
then wins. What will they do? Set up a temporary Oval Office in the
slammer somewhere?

--

Geoff
NTV650

"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:unf0qp$16ovg$1@dont-email.me:

> "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>
> <SNIP>
>
>>
>> If it helps, imagine the scene on 20 Jan 2025: Trump ascends to the
>> podium but Chief Justice Roberts is nowhere to be found.
>
> Could also be interesting if Trump is jailed sometime this year and
> then wins. What will they do? Set up a temporary Oval Office in the
> slammer somewhere?
>
>
>

he would simpy grant himself a pardon and jump on Marine 1

On 07/01/2024 21:48, wessie wrote:
>"GeoffC" <me@invalid.nl> wrote in news:unf0qp$16ovg$1@dont-email.me:
>
>> "Worst Case"@dizum.com wrote:
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>>>
>>> If it helps, imagine the scene on 20 Jan 2025: Trump ascends to the
>>> podium but Chief Justice Roberts is nowhere to be found.
>>
>> Could also be interesting if Trump is jailed sometime this year and
>> then wins. What will they do? Set up a temporary Oval Office in the
>> slammer somewhere?
>>
>>
>>
>
>he would simpy grant himself a pardon and jump on Marine 1

IANAL,so I looked it up. He could pardon himself from federal crimes but not
state ones, only the governor can do that. So if he gets convicted in a
state with a Democrat governor he's fucked.
Apparently Nixon considered the option but was told although in practice he
probably could, morally he shouldn't. Can't see any moral impediments
stopping Trump though.
--
Geoff
NTV 650