On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:21:56 +0100, MB wrote:

> On 29/06/2023 08:12, alan_m wrote:
>> How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>> station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>
>
> I would have thought the main problem would be getting standardised
> interchangeable batteries.
>
> The service station would have to be manned with someone changing the
> battery for you and putting the old one on charge so that puts costs up.
>
> I believe the batteries can monitor their usage and charge cycle but can
> you be sure you do not get one that has lost capacity though I suppose
> you could be charged by the amount of life left in the battery.

The vehicle could have a trailer with a spare battery, to deal with long
distance. That of course be a good item to steal.

In article <k25q9ihihn6c0ahjau3ttgrpckr8ll76hu@4ax.com>,
Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:
> On Wed, 28 Jun 2023 20:49:52 +0100, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

> >If someone can crack the refuelling time, and ideally also increase the
> >range to 500-700 miles (as for a typical fossil fuel car) then electric
> >cars will be brilliant. Until then, they'd be little more than a
> >liability and a perpetual worry "If I drive somewhere, will I be able to
> >get home again? How much time will I waste on finding a charging point
> >and walking from there and back to where I want to be?"

> We already have plenty of practical experience with rechargeable
> batteries, so we know there are two fundamental ways of charging them-

> 1. Charge the battery in situ, rendering the equipment unmovable until
> the battery is charged.

> 2. Swap the battery with one which has been charged elsewhere.

> Both of these techniques are already in use for smaller items, so it's
> a surprise that nobody seems to have thought of using the second one
> for cars. It would depend on standardising voltages, physical
> dimensions, and connectors, but if different manufacturers can
> standardise things like AA cells and USB connectors there seems no
> reason in principle why it shouldn't be possible to do it for car
> batteries as well. I understand that most if not all of them are made
> from hundreds of 18650 lithium cells which are standardised anyway, so
> why not standardise packs of them too?

> The size of replaceable battery packs wouldn't need to be the same as
> the built-in ones, as drivers would more readily accept a reduced
> range if they could rely on battery swapping being available at all
> fuel stations and if it could be done in minutes. Some vehicles might
> accommodate several battery packs for extended range, but would be
> capable of running on a single one.

> This would have the further advantage that if you'd used up all your
> battery range to get to your destination it would still be possible to
> fetch a replacement battery from a local fuel station in another
> vehicle. I could imagine hotels and the like keeping some in stock for
> their customers,

[Snip]

just like coaching inns and a change of horses

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:12:40 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 29/06/2023 06:50, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>
>> The size of replaceable battery packs wouldn't need to be the same as
>> the built-in ones, as drivers would more readily accept a reduced
>> range if they could rely on battery swapping being available at all
>> fuel stations and if it could be done in minutes. Some vehicles might
>> accommodate several battery packs for extended range, but would be
>> capable of running on a single one.
>
>How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>
>Even my local street corner petrol station does a constant trade with 8
>petrol pumps being occupied for many hours during the day. All the
>tanks are underground and just enough space for the 8 pumps and parking
>for those using the mini-Tesco. I doubt if that could be converted to
>battery swapping for more than one car at a time and with enough spare
>battery capacity to service more than a few 10s of vehicles.

If we wanted to do it, we would find a way of managing it. Of course
it would be far from ideal, but I think slightly less far from ideal
than the present arrangement that effectively makes an electric car
unusable while the built-in battery is charging.

For the time being (i.e. until somebody invents a magic battery with a
weight and a driving range comparable with a tank full of petrol and
which can be recharged or replaced in a few minutes) I think the best
compromise is probably a hybrid. The electric motor only works at low
speeds, where a petrol engine is especially inefficient and can't even
provide power down to zero speed, and because its battery doesn't need
enough range for a full journey it can be smaller and lighter than for
a fully electric vehicle. They seem quite popular now. I wish I could
afford one.

Rod.

On 29/06/2023 08:21, MB wrote:
> On 29/06/2023 08:12, alan_m wrote:
>> How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>> station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>
>
> I would have thought the main problem would be getting standardised
> interchangeable batteries.
>
> The service station would have to be manned with someone changing the
> battery for you and putting the old one on charge so that puts costs up.

I doubt the size of existing town/city petrol stations would be suitable
for such an operation. The two close to where I live rely on 1000 plus
people filling up with fuel each day. At least one tanker a day
replenishes the underground tanks.

Replace much of the space with a stock of replacement batteries and the
machinery to handle them and the throughput in service station would
possibly reduce by ten fold. The result is a non-viable business in such
a small space. With the falling sales of petrol/diesel the likelihood is
most of the existing filling stations will be sold off for housing.

The problem is not the standardisation of battery sizes but the local
infrastructure required. In most towns/cities the only places with a
suitable area would be car parks. It would be more sensible for each
parking space to have a charging point. That's not going to be cheap or
quick, assuming that the cabling under our streets can also cope with a
possible additional peak demand (and also supply our houses with ASHPs).

> I believe the batteries can monitor their usage and charge cycle but can
> you be sure you do not get one that has lost capacity though I suppose
> you could be charged by the amount of life left in the battery.
>

An ideal way of re-introducing the equivalent on fuel duty on EV usage.
It'll be a service covered by 20% VAT as a start.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/06/2023 17:18, alan_m wrote:
> I doubt the size of existing town/city petrol stations would be suitable
> for such an operation. The two close to where I live rely on 1000 plus
> people filling up with fuel each day. At least one tanker a day
> replenishes the underground tanks.

With flammability of Lithium batteries, it might be more a risk than a
petrol filling station so have more restrictions.

On 29/06/2023 08:51 am, jon wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:21:56 +0100, MB wrote:
>
>> On 29/06/2023 08:12, alan_m wrote:
>>> How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>>> station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>>
>>
>> I would have thought the main problem would be getting standardised
>> interchangeable batteries.
>>
>> The service station would have to be manned with someone changing the
>> battery for you and putting the old one on charge so that puts costs up.
>>
>> I believe the batteries can monitor their usage and charge cycle but can
>> you be sure you do not get one that has lost capacity though I suppose
>> you could be charged by the amount of life left in the battery.
>
>
> The vehicle could have a trailer with a spare battery, to deal with long
> distance. That of course be a good item to steal.

Not a bad idea.

Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
preferable to running out of fuel.

On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:
> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
> preferable to running out of fuel.

It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.

On 29/06/2023 07:28 pm, MB wrote:
> On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:
>> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
>> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
>> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
>> preferable to running out of fuel.
>
>
> It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.

So, I suppose, would be a trailer with a bowser full of petrol or diesel.

"charles" <charles@candehope.me.uk> wrote in message
news:5abc05c680charles@candehope.me.uk...

> just like coaching inns and a change of horses

Except that current electric cars require you to keep your existing horse(s)
and wait until it is / they are fed and rested before you can continue.

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 21:02:57 +0100, JNugent <jnugent@mail.com> wrote:

>On 29/06/2023 07:28 pm, MB wrote:
>> On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:
>>> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
>>> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
>>> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
>>> preferable to running out of fuel.
>>
>>
>> It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.
>
>So, I suppose, would be a trailer with a bowser full of petrol or diesel.

Which a petrol car would never need, unless you're going to drive it
across a desert.

Rod.

On 30/06/2023 06:19, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> Which a petrol car would never need, unless you're going to drive it
> across a desert.

And if you are going to drive across a desert then it is easy to
position stocks or petrol along the route in jerry cans or bowsers, you
can even fly these in to refuelling points.

On 29/06/2023 22:23, NY wrote:
> Except that current electric cars require you to keep your existing horse(s)
> and wait until it is / they are fed and rested before you can continue.

In many areas, the horses would self-refuel overnight. If not then you
can eat them.

On 30/06/2023 06:19 am, Roderick Stewart wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 21:02:57 +0100, JNugent <jnugent@mail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 29/06/2023 07:28 pm, MB wrote:
>>> On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:
>>>> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
>>>> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
>>>> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
>>>> preferable to running out of fuel.
>>>
>>>
>>> It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.
>>
>> So, I suppose, would be a trailer with a bowser full of petrol or diesel.
>
> Which a petrol car would never need, unless you're going to drive it
> across a desert.
>
> Rod.

True, but there's still a principle involved.

On Thursday, 29 June 2023 at 21:03:00 UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
> On 29/06/2023 07:28 pm, MB wrote:
> > On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:
> >> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
> >> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
> >> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
> >> preferable to running out of fuel.
> >
> >
> > It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.
> So, I suppose, would be a trailer with a bowser full of petrol or diesel.
No comparison. Batteries are far heavier per unit energy than petrol.
Bill

On 30/06/2023 02:44 pm, wrightsaerials@aol.com wrote:

> On Thursday, 29 June 2023 at 21:03:00 UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
>> On 29/06/2023 07:28 pm, MB wrote:
>>> On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:

>>>> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
>>>> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
>>>> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
>>>> preferable to running out of fuel.
>
>>> It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.

>> So, I suppose, would be a trailer with a bowser full of petrol or diesel.

> No comparison. Batteries are far heavier per unit energy than petrol.

You don't say!

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 06:44:16 -0700 (PDT), "wrightsaerials@aol.com"
<wrightsaerials@f2s.com> wrote:

>On Thursday, 29 June 2023 at 21:03:00 UTC+1, JNugent wrote:
>> On 29/06/2023 07:28 pm, MB wrote:
>> > On 29/06/2023 18:04, JNugent wrote:
>> >> Of course, it would mean that the vehicle pulling the trailer was
>> >> automatically prohibited from using the outside lane on a motorway (as
>> >> are all vehicles towing trailers of any kind), but that's got to be
>> >> preferable to running out of fuel.
>> >
>> >
>> > It is a long of extra weight to have to carry around.
>> So, I suppose, would be a trailer with a bowser full of petrol or diesel.
>No comparison. Batteries are far heavier per unit energy than petrol.
>Bill

Best figures I can find is latest generation of Li-ion variations of
car power pack batteries is an energy density of 400Wh / kg. Hence an
80kWh battery has a weight greater than 200kg. Earlier car power pack
batteries have much lower energy densities. Google is your friend.

--
brightside S9

On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 11:36:46 +0100, Roderick Stewart
<rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:12:40 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On 29/06/2023 06:50, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> The size of replaceable battery packs wouldn't need to be the same as
>>> the built-in ones, as drivers would more readily accept a reduced
>>> range if they could rely on battery swapping being available at all
>>> fuel stations and if it could be done in minutes. Some vehicles might
>>> accommodate several battery packs for extended range, but would be
>>> capable of running on a single one.
>>
>>How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>>station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>>
>>Even my local street corner petrol station does a constant trade with 8
>>petrol pumps being occupied for many hours during the day. All the
>>tanks are underground and just enough space for the 8 pumps and parking
>>for those using the mini-Tesco. I doubt if that could be converted to
>>battery swapping for more than one car at a time and with enough spare
>>battery capacity to service more than a few 10s of vehicles.
>
>If we wanted to do it, we would find a way of managing it. Of course
>it would be far from ideal, but I think slightly less far from ideal
>than the present arrangement that effectively makes an electric car
>unusable while the built-in battery is charging.
>
>For the time being (i.e. until somebody invents a magic battery with a
>weight and a driving range comparable with a tank full of petrol and
>which can be recharged or replaced in a few minutes) I think the best
>compromise is probably a hybrid. The electric motor only works at low
>speeds, where a petrol engine is especially inefficient and can't even
>provide power down to zero speed, and because its battery doesn't need
>enough range for a full journey it can be smaller and lighter than for
>a fully electric vehicle. They seem quite popular now. I wish I could
>afford one.
>
Sale of most new hybrids, along with new petrol and disel cars will be
banned from 2030.

See:
https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-11844255/Hybrid-cars-need-know-run-road.html
--
brightside S9

On Sat, 01 Jul 2023 09:37:46 +0100, BrightsideS9
<reply_to_address_is_not@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>Sale of most new hybrids, along with new petrol and disel cars will be
>banned from 2030.

2030 is possibly at least two governments away, so anything could
change, and there's no guarantee I'll still be alive then. The car
I've already got is likely to be the last one I ever drive.

Rod.

On 01/07/2023 09:37, BrightsideS9 wrote:
> Sale of most new hybrids, along with new petrol and disel cars will be
> banned from 2030.

Many think it will have to be postponed, there are unlikely to be enough
battery cars for everyone.

Unless they get the children mining the Lithium working much longer hours.

On 23/06/2023 08:24, MB wrote:
> On 22/06/2023 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
>> In quite a lot of countries the poverty line is seen as a dollar a day.
>> I've used taxis where the off duty drivers sleep by the road. They have
>> nowhere else.
>
>
> And what is the chance of one of them being able to afford a battery car
> to use as a taxi and earn some money?

None whatsoever. The taxi driver does not own the car, he drives it for
somebody rich who owns a fleet of taxis.

Andy

On 23/06/2023 08:54, Bob Latham wrote:
>> Can you please explain how you will prevent public outcry if
>> immigrants are starved on arrival?
> Oh please.
>
> I'm not even going to dignify that with an answer.
>
But that's the critical part to answer.

I'm sure that if the Navy went out and machine gunned a few boats in the
channel the crossings would stop that same day.

And then restart a couple of days later when some navy office was locked
up following the public outcry.

Andy

On 23/06/2023 15:32, Java Jive wrote:
> On 23/06/2023 10:47, Bob Latham wrote:
>>
>> I agree. This Government will probably go down as the most useless in
>> history
>
> Yet you insisted on voting for them despite the leader having a public
> persona of an incompetent buffoon and a track record of blatant
> dishonesty.  More fool you.
>
>> but not for long, that title will undoubtedly pass to Labour
>> quickly after the next election.
>
> Self-contradiction within one sentence, quite your usual standard of
> logic in fact.  Anyway, you have no possible grounds for claiming that.
>
This time I do agree with Bob.

Have a look at what the past few Labour and/or coalition governments
have managed to do to the economy. Even worse than this lot.

Andy

In article <u7slap$3d50v$3@dont-email.me>, Vir Campestris
<vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 23/06/2023 08:24, MB wrote:
> > On 22/06/2023 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
> >> In quite a lot of countries the poverty line is seen as a dollar a
> >> day. I've used taxis where the off duty drivers sleep by the road.
> >> They have nowhere else.
> >
> >
> > And what is the chance of one of them being able to afford a battery
> > car to use as a taxi and earn some money?

> None whatsoever. The taxi driver does not own the car, he drives it for
> somebody rich who owns a fleet of taxis.

>
I've been in two all-electric London Taxis. One certainly had an
owner-driver.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England - sent from my RISC OS 4té
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 02/07/2023 21:09, Vir Campestris wrote:
>
> On 23/06/2023 15:32, Java Jive wrote:
>>
> This time I do agree with Bob.
>
> Have a look at what the past few Labour and/or coalition governments
> have managed to do to the economy. Even worse than this lot.

Let's see now ...

Conservatives: Self-inflicted damage to the economy from Brexshit and
the Liz Truss economic fiasco, and of course there's also the major
external effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War.

Labour: Self-inflicted 2nd Iraq War, and the external effect of the
depression, though it could be argued that that was largely caused by
the de-regulation of the financial markets by preceding Tory governments
coming home to roost, and therefore another self-inflicted wound by the
Tories.

So, when it comes to tanking the economy, we have a clear loser: the
Conservatives lose by at least 2, arguably 3, needlessly self-inflicted
wounds to 1.

Also:

- Inflation is currently at its highest since 1989-1991 when the Tories
were also in power, and in the entire post-war period has tended to peak
when the Tories were in or had just lost power.

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2647/economics/history-of-inflation-in-uk/

- Although, as I pointed out in reply to Bob, in fact the National Debt
is currently somewhere about average over the last two centuries,
nevertheless, as Bob has originally pointed out, it is higher than most
of us can remember (just not for the reasons he tried to claim).

https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/

- How many Labour PMs were even subject of a Commons Enquiry of lying
to The House, let alone actually found guilty? How many Labour MPs were
found to have been reading or watching pornography within The House?
How many Labour MPs have attempted to abuse illegally the human rights
of immigrants by trying to deport them to an African country?

Etc, etc.

Only a deeply biased person could still peddle such bullshit as you do
after the unprecedented misgovernmental fiasco of the last few years!

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

charles wrote:

> I've been in two all-electric London Taxis. One certainly had an
> owner-driver.

If it's a TX5, they're petrol/electric hybrids ...
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TX5_(taxi)>