> In this case it's likely that Uswitch is just an advertising
> billboard. EE don't bother paying Uswitch anything, so none of
> their services appear. BTpay to advertise their FTTC services
> but not their FTTP (maybe they don't
> pay commission to Uswitch to offer them) so only the FTTC appears.

Unlikely BT pay any so called comparison sites anything to advertise and don't
pay commission to any either.

But these sites make half hearted attempts to list the BT services (and maybe a
couple of others) to hide the fact that most of what you are offered is paid
advertising, and not necessarily the cheapest or best services, simply those
who pay commission.

Angus

In message <KLy*CleIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 13:00:48 on Thu,
18 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <NLy*YLdIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:20:11 on Thu,
>> 18 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >
>> >Uswitch is particularly useless for searching. If I search a randomly
>> >selected Openreach FTTP+ADSL capable postcode (no 14, SG8 5QE) and filter by
>> > >100Mbps there is no BT or EE listed as available. But that's because they
>> >don't pay kickbacks to Uswitch, rather than any technical reason - if I go
>> >to the BT and EE websites then they find FTTP.
>> >
>> >If you see the list of providers returned, it's only BT,
>>
>> Getting back to the branding issue, why "BT" and not "EE" if, as we are
>> told, they are now one and the same.
>
>They aren't one and the same, they're different brands, like say Audi and
>Skoda. The two brands share a common corporate parentage but advertise
>separately. They both buy parts from the same OEM (Openreach) but other
>features are different.

Rupert seemed to be suggesting they were more merged than that.

>In this case it's likely that Uswitch is just an advertising billboard. EE
>don't bother paying Uswitch anything, so none of their services appear. BT
>pay to advertise their FTTC services but not their FTTP (maybe they don't
>pay commission to Uswitch to offer them) so only the FTTC appears.
>
>> >Plusnet, Sky, Talktalk, Vodafone, Direct Save, NOW, Onestream and Shell
>> >Energy. When there are many more providers using Openreach - it is
>> >purely because they don't pay kickbacks to Uswitch.
>>
>> Doesn't explain why there's no BT FTTP listed for my street.
>
>It does when you look at it from a commission point of view. No commission
>on a service = no listing.
>
>If you go to the BT site it offers FTTP for my example postcode above.
>Does the BT site offer FTTP for your postcode?

Out of curiosity I might, but not because I want to buy a damn thing
from them (so I'd never look at it normally). I'm prepared to buy from
Plusnet because they appear to have a slightly more customer-focused
ethic, although there were several things they messed up:

For example delaying the installation date surreptitiously. OK they did
send me the new date, but phrased as a "confirmation" of my original
order, without saying "but sorry, in between you ordering it and now, we
discovered the date we offered you is no longer available". Simply
adding "Monday" to the date, would have flagged up it wasn't the
'Thursday' I'd picked, and then spent considerable time clearing my
diary.

They kept talking about "sending you a router if you've ordered one",
when the ordering process never asked whether I wanted one or not.

In fact it was their SMS saying they'd dispatched it (at 4.30pm the day
before I thought was booked for installation) which alerted me to the
change of date.

And finally, that the service will take a couple of weeks to stabilise
the speed, when that's not appropriate for FTTP.
--
Roland Perry

In message <uvr277$28aca$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:51 on Thu, 18 Apr
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uvqrk4$2701k$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:16 on Thu, 18 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <l8b0dcFsiv7U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:22:36 on Wed, 17
>>>> Apr 2024, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 17 Apr 2024 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <l89rq0Fn0bgU1@mid.individual.net>, at 12:57:51 on Wed, 17
>>>>>> Apr 2024, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell EE don't offer FTTP where I live
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That seems odd to me, not all ISPs offer FTTP (indeed Plusnet were
>>>>>>> one who didn't until a couple of years ago) but I'd have expected EE
>>>>>>> all other ISPs who sell openreach based services) to sell it
>>>>>>> everywhere that openreach make it available ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They don't, just like all that crowd don't offer v.fast everywhere that
>>>>>> Openreach makes it available. Have a look and see if you can get v.fast
>>>>>> where you live (it's 300MBit FTTC)
>>>>>
>>>>> But they offer it everywhere that BT Consumer offers FTTP because, BT
>>>>> Consumer is EE.
>>>>
>>>> This branding is very confusing! If you go to Uswitch for my street they
>>>> have BT Fibre 1 (50 Mbps), BT Fibre 2 (67 Mbps) and Plusnet Full Fibre
>>>> 1245/500/900, but no BT full fibre, or EE anything.
>>>
>>> I think BT (parent company) is still in the process of sorting out its
>>> branding. Ultimately business users are supposed to get BT branded products
>>> and consumers get EE branded products. The long term future of Plusnet is
>>> still open to question.
>>>
>>> Pretty much every ISP that is an Open Reach reseller will offer their
>>> services nationwide.
>>
>> That's never been true. Especially outside the bigger cities.
>>
>Can you back that statement up?
>
>I’ve just tried a cottage I know in a very isolated part of the Scottish
>Borders. Zen, Vodafone and IDNet all offer service, which from the offers
>they make, is the same Open Reach FTTC service.

One swallow etc. Especially in areas like that which have highly
subsidised infrastructure for political reasons.

>Which consumer orientated

I detect a goalpost movement there.

>Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a nationwide service?

Putting g.fast aside for a moment (it is an Openreach service after all)
I don't have a time machine to go back and look at the range of
resellers available the last three or four times I switched my
broadband, but it was definitely not the whole lot.
--
Roland Perry

In message <l8cdbcF26fiU4@mid.individual.net>, at 12:09:26 on Thu, 18
Apr 2024, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry wrote:
>
>> I know there's FTTP (I saw the engineers installing it about 18months
>>ago). Nobody lit it for quite a long time, and today Uswitch doesn't
>>show BT FTTP, but does show BT FTTC, so it can't be a "kick-back" issue.
>
>Every ISP I've tried shows FTTP is available to you, why do you put so
>much faith in Uswitch?

I don't "put faith" in them, but with limited time to trawl a hundred
different ISP websites, I would tend to use a switcher-site for
Internet, just like energy and car insurance.
--
Roland Perry

On 18/04/2024 13:03, Tweed wrote:
>
> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a
> nationwide service?

Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?

For me, Broadband Choices / MoneySupermarket suggest NOW, TalkTalk,
Plusnet, BT, Sky, vodafone, Shell, Onestream, Fibrely, POP, 3.

Now, Sky, Shell, 3 say No when you get to their sites.

(Well, initially 3 says "Missing translationId:
address.postalCodeRequiredFieldValidation for language: ${ languageCode }" )

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <uvr277$28aca$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:51 on Thu, 18 Apr
> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <uvqrk4$2701k$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:16 on Thu, 18 Apr
>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <l8b0dcFsiv7U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:22:36 on Wed, 17
>>>>> Apr 2024, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>> On 17 Apr 2024 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <l89rq0Fn0bgU1@mid.individual.net>, at 12:57:51 on Wed, 17
>>>>>>> Apr 2024, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell EE don't offer FTTP where I live
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me, not all ISPs offer FTTP (indeed Plusnet were
>>>>>>>> one who didn't until a couple of years ago) but I'd have expected EE
>>>>>>>> all other ISPs who sell openreach based services) to sell it
>>>>>>>> everywhere that openreach make it available ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They don't, just like all that crowd don't offer v.fast everywhere that
>>>>>>> Openreach makes it available. Have a look and see if you can get v.fast
>>>>>>> where you live (it's 300MBit FTTC)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But they offer it everywhere that BT Consumer offers FTTP because, BT
>>>>>> Consumer is EE.
>>>>>
>>>>> This branding is very confusing! If you go to Uswitch for my street they
>>>>> have BT Fibre 1 (50 Mbps), BT Fibre 2 (67 Mbps) and Plusnet Full Fibre
>>>>> 1245/500/900, but no BT full fibre, or EE anything.
>>>>
>>>> I think BT (parent company) is still in the process of sorting out its
>>>> branding. Ultimately business users are supposed to get BT branded products
>>>> and consumers get EE branded products. The long term future of Plusnet is
>>>> still open to question.
>>>>
>>>> Pretty much every ISP that is an Open Reach reseller will offer their
>>>> services nationwide.
>>>
>>> That's never been true. Especially outside the bigger cities.
>>>
>> Can you back that statement up?
>>
>> I’ve just tried a cottage I know in a very isolated part of the Scottish
>> Borders. Zen, Vodafone and IDNet all offer service, which from the offers
>> they make, is the same Open Reach FTTC service.
>
> One swallow etc. Especially in areas like that which have highly
> subsidised infrastructure for political reasons.
>
>> Which consumer orientated
>
> I detect a goalpost movement there.
>
>> Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a nationwide service?
>
> Putting g.fast aside for a moment (it is an Openreach service after all)
> I don't have a time machine to go back and look at the range of
> resellers available the last three or four times I switched my
> broadband, but it was definitely not the whole lot.

No goalposts moving. Just making sure we consider “normal” ISPs rather than
some oddball outfit that’s been specifically set up to serve a niche set of
customers in a particular area.

As far as I’m aware, it’s many years since Open Reach reseller ISPs didn’t
have nationwide access. Didn’t it boil down to either the ISP putting their
own kit in the exchange or paying BT Wholesale to backhaul from the smaller
exchanges? When FTTC came along things changed a bit, and more change with
FTTP. However, national coverage has been a thing for very many years now,
unless someone wishes to provide more information to the contrary?

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2024 13:03, Tweed wrote:
> >
> > Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a
> > nationwide service?
>
> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?
>
> For me, Broadband Choices / MoneySupermarket suggest NOW, TalkTalk,
> Plusnet, BT, Sky, vodafone, Shell, Onestream, Fibrely, POP, 3.

MSE is another commission based site. They don't offer Zen, IDnet or A&A,
ISPs who are regularly recommended here. It is also possible it's not
commission but those ISPs don't offer referrers like MSE access to their
service availability API so MSE just lists the few who do.

(arguably some of those are not 'consumer oriented' but they have plenty of
consumers as customers. They just don't bother advertising to consumers
like Sky etc)

> Now, Sky, Shell, 3 say No when you get to their sites.

I know Now don't do SOGEA, so if you have a SOGEA line they won't connect
you. They don't offer service to me (SOGEA), but they do to my next door
neighbour who has classic copper FTTC. Sky do offer SOGEA, so not sure why
they don't offer that.

If I put in my sample Openreach FTTP postcode (SG8 5QE 14) into Three they
offer a 4G service for 'home broadband' so they aren't reselling Openreach.
If I put in my own postcode (where Three signal is patchy) they don't offer
service.

> (Well, initially 3 says "Missing translationId:
> address.postalCodeRequiredFieldValidation for language: ${ languageCode }" )

A lucky escape :-)

Theo

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2024 13:03, Tweed wrote:
>>
>> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a
>> nationwide service?
>
> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?
>
> For me, Broadband Choices / MoneySupermarket suggest NOW, TalkTalk,
> Plusnet, BT, Sky, vodafone, Shell, Onestream, Fibrely, POP, 3.
>
> Now, Sky, Shell, 3 say No when you get to their sites.
>
> (Well, initially 3 says "Missing translationId:
> address.postalCodeRequiredFieldValidation for language: ${ languageCode }" )
>

There’s very many ISPs out there, not just the ones who have paid to be on
switcher sites.

https://www.ispreview.co.uk/list.shtml

My favourite two are AAISP (Andrews and Arnold) and IDNet. Both have non
script driven sensible technical support, offer static non NAT ipv4 and
also a range of ipv6 addresses.

On 18/04/2024 17:12, Tweed wrote:
> As far as I’m aware, it’s many years since Open Reach reseller ISPs didn’t
> have nationwide access. Didn’t it boil down to either the ISP putting their
> own kit in the exchange or paying BT Wholesale to backhaul from the smaller
> exchanges? When FTTC came along things changed a bit, and more change with
> FTTP. However, national coverage has been a thing for very many years now,
> unless someone wishes to provide more information to the contrary?
>

Try BB7 3AT (a fairly central location in the UK).

On 18/04/2024 17:26, Tweed wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/04/2024 13:03, Tweed wrote:
>>>
>>> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a
>>> nationwide service?
>>
>> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?
>>
>> For me, Broadband Choices / MoneySupermarket suggest NOW, TalkTalk,
>> Plusnet, BT, Sky, vodafone, Shell, Onestream, Fibrely, POP, 3.
>>
>> Now, Sky, Shell, 3 say No when you get to their sites.
>>
>> (Well, initially 3 says "Missing translationId:
>> address.postalCodeRequiredFieldValidation for language: ${ languageCode }" )
>>
>
> There’s very many ISPs out there, not just the ones who have paid to be on
> switcher sites.

Yes, I know. Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> No goalposts moving. Just making sure we consider “normal” ISPs rather than
> some oddball outfit that’s been specifically set up to serve a niche set of
> customers in a particular area.
>
> As far as I’m aware, it’s many years since Open Reach reseller ISPs didn’t
> have nationwide access. Didn’t it boil down to either the ISP putting their
> own kit in the exchange or paying BT Wholesale to backhaul from the smaller
> exchanges? When FTTC came along things changed a bit, and more change with
> FTTP. However, national coverage has been a thing for very many years now,
> unless someone wishes to provide more information to the contrary?

Depends what you mean by 'national'. I don't think anyone says 'ooh, you
live in Yorkshire, we don't do there'. But there are a few factors:

- SOGEA / digital voice. Some ISPs don't support SOGEA (eg Now), so won't
take orders on a SOGEA line. Some ISPs don't have a digital voice service
(eg Plusnet) so won't take a migration where you say you want voice. Often
existing customers are on one platform (classic copper) and new customers
can only order something different (SOGEA+DV), and renewed contracts moving
from one to the other can get tricky.

- LLU kit in your exchange. Mostly for old ADSL connections, but some cases
that still applies. Most ISPs take Openreach's backhaul product when they
don't have kit in the exchange, but they don't have to. Now don't support
SOGEA but they do support Sky LLU via Openreach MPF (ie copper wires hooked
directly into the Sky LLU box) so you can still order Now but only on
exchanges with Sky LLU kit. (I'm not sure how this works with FTTC, does it
mean Sky LLU kit in the cabinet?)

- FTTP support. For a long while Plusnet didn't support FTTP, so if you
were in a property with just Openreach FTTP (eg a new build) then you
couldn't order from PN. No doubt there are still some ISPs in that
position.

- all the SOTAP for Analogue stuff, yet to be deployed. Remains to be seen
which phone providers will support that, but I bet the number is limited.

It's why when searching I tend to put in the postcodes of my neighbours (and
not-so-neighbours) too, so I can check whether it's a blanket lack of
support locally or if there's something specific to my premises.

Theo

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2024 17:12, Tweed wrote:
>> As far as I’m aware, it’s many years since Open Reach reseller ISPs didn’t
>> have nationwide access. Didn’t it boil down to either the ISP putting their
>> own kit in the exchange or paying BT Wholesale to backhaul from the smaller
>> exchanges? When FTTC came along things changed a bit, and more change with
>> FTTP. However, national coverage has been a thing for very many years now,
>> unless someone wishes to provide more information to the contrary?
>>
>
> Try BB7 3AT (a fairly central location in the UK).
>

AAISP can supply ADSL.

Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> On 18/04/2024 17:26, Tweed wrote:
> > Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 18/04/2024 13:03, Tweed wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a
> >>> nationwide service?
> >>
> >> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?
> >>
> >> For me, Broadband Choices / MoneySupermarket suggest NOW, TalkTalk,
> >> Plusnet, BT, Sky, vodafone, Shell, Onestream, Fibrely, POP, 3.
> >>
> >> Now, Sky, Shell, 3 say No when you get to their sites.
> >>
> >> (Well, initially 3 says "Missing translationId:
> >> address.postalCodeRequiredFieldValidation for language: ${ languageCode }" )
> >>
> >
> > There’s very many ISPs out there, not just the ones who have paid to be on
> > switcher sites.
>
> Yes, I know. Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?

Take that list and click on 'Superfast broadband':
https://www.ispreview.co.uk/isp_list/ISP_List_Superfast_Broadband.php
(ie ADSL ISPs, which filters most FTTP networks who don't go that slow)

Then see those with Network(s): Openreach and work down the list. There are
about 50.

'Consumer oriented' is in the eye of the beholder, but many of them offer
residential packages. Perhaps you might say that 'Yoor Coop' and 'I Need
Broadband' are more consumer oriented than 'CloudScape Connect', but even
the latter offers residential packages.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 18/04/2024 17:26, Tweed wrote:
>>> Nick Finnigan <nix@genie.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 18/04/2024 13:03, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a
>>>>> nationwide service?
>>>>
>>>> Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?
>>>>
>>>> For me, Broadband Choices / MoneySupermarket suggest NOW, TalkTalk,
>>>> Plusnet, BT, Sky, vodafone, Shell, Onestream, Fibrely, POP, 3.
>>>>
>>>> Now, Sky, Shell, 3 say No when you get to their sites.
>>>>
>>>> (Well, initially 3 says "Missing translationId:
>>>> address.postalCodeRequiredFieldValidation for language: ${ languageCode }" )
>>>>
>>>
>>> There’s very many ISPs out there, not just the ones who have paid to be on
>>> switcher sites.
>>
>> Yes, I know. Which consumer orientated Open Reach reseller ISPs are there?
>
> Take that list and click on 'Superfast broadband':
> https://www.ispreview.co.uk/isp_list/ISP_List_Superfast_Broadband.php
> (ie ADSL ISPs, which filters most FTTP networks who don't go that slow)
>
> Then see those with Network(s): Openreach and work down the list. There are
> about 50.
>
> 'Consumer oriented' is in the eye of the beholder, but many of them offer
> residential packages. Perhaps you might say that 'Yoor Coop' and 'I Need
> Broadband' are more consumer oriented than 'CloudScape Connect', but even
> the latter offers residential packages.
>
> Theo
>

By consumer orientated ISP I really meant one that intends to supply
consumers as part of its business plan. As opposed to some specialist
outfit set up to supply, say, local schools.

In message <uvrgp1$2bftu$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:12:17 on Thu, 18 Apr
2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <uvr277$28aca$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:03:51 on Thu, 18 Apr
>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <uvqrk4$2701k$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:11:16 on Thu, 18 Apr
>>>> 2024, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <l8b0dcFsiv7U1@mid.individual.net>, at 23:22:36 on Wed, 17
>>>>>> Apr 2024, Rupert Moss-Eccardt <nin@moss-eccardt.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> On 17 Apr 2024 16:48, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <l89rq0Fn0bgU1@mid.individual.net>, at 12:57:51 on Wed, 17
>>>>>>>> Apr 2024, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As far as I can tell EE don't offer FTTP where I live
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That seems odd to me, not all ISPs offer FTTP (indeed Plusnet were
>>>>>>>>> one who didn't until a couple of years ago) but I'd have expected EE
>>>>>>>>> all other ISPs who sell openreach based services) to sell it
>>>>>>>>> everywhere that openreach make it available ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They don't, just like all that crowd don't offer v.fast everywhere that
>>>>>>>> Openreach makes it available. Have a look and see if you can get v.fast
>>>>>>>> where you live (it's 300MBit FTTC)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But they offer it everywhere that BT Consumer offers FTTP because, BT
>>>>>>> Consumer is EE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This branding is very confusing! If you go to Uswitch for my street they
>>>>>> have BT Fibre 1 (50 Mbps), BT Fibre 2 (67 Mbps) and Plusnet Full Fibre
>>>>>> 1245/500/900, but no BT full fibre, or EE anything.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think BT (parent company) is still in the process of sorting out
>>>>>its branding. Ultimately business users are supposed to get BT
>>>>>branded products and consumers get EE branded products. The long
>>>>>term future of Plusnet is still open to question.
>>>>>
>>>>> Pretty much every ISP that is an Open Reach reseller will offer their
>>>>> services nationwide.
>>>>
>>>> That's never been true. Especially outside the bigger cities.
>>>>
>>> Can you back that statement up?
>>>
>>> I’ve just tried a cottage I know in a very isolated part of the Scottish
>>> Borders. Zen, Vodafone and IDNet all offer service, which from the offers
>>> they make, is the same Open Reach FTTC service.
>>
>> One swallow etc. Especially in areas like that which have highly
>> subsidised infrastructure for political reasons.
>>
>>> Which consumer orientated
>>
>> I detect a goalpost movement there.
>>
>>> Open Reach reseller ISPs *don’t* offer a nationwide service?
>>
>> Putting g.fast aside for a moment (it is an Openreach service after all)
>> I don't have a time machine to go back and look at the range of
>> resellers available the last three or four times I switched my
>> broadband, but it was definitely not the whole lot.
>
>No goalposts moving. Just making sure we consider “normal” ISPs rather than
>some oddball outfit that’s been specifically set up to serve a niche set of
>customers in a particular area.
>
>As far as I’m aware, it’s many years since Open Reach reseller ISPs
>didn’t have nationwide access. Didn’t it boil down to either the
>ISP putting their own kit in the exchange

That's LLU which is a completely different thing.

>or paying BT Wholesale to backhaul from the smaller exchanges?

AIUI each ISP had to contract for a certain amount of backhaul [POTS as
well as TCP/IP) from each of those exchanges, which meant many smaller
ISPs at smaller exchanges didn't think it was worth the candle.

>When FTTC came along things changed a bit, and more change with FTTP.
>However, national coverage has been a thing for very many years now,
>unless someone wishes to provide more information to the contrary?

Maybe someone who works for a niche ISP like A&A would be prepared to
lift their skirt?
--
Roland Perry

On 18 Apr 2024 13:00:48 +0100 (BST), Theo
<theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <NLy*YLdIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:20:11 on Thu,
>> 18 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>> >
>> >Uswitch is particularly useless for searching. If I search a randomly
>> >selected Openreach FTTP+ADSL capable postcode (no 14, SG8 5QE) and filter by
>> > >100Mbps there is no BT or EE listed as available. But that's because they
>> >don't pay kickbacks to Uswitch, rather than any technical reason - if I go
>> >to the BT and EE websites then they find FTTP.
>> >
>> >If you see the list of providers returned, it's only BT,
>>
>> Getting back to the branding issue, why "BT" and not "EE" if, as we are
>> told, they are now one and the same.
>
>They aren't one and the same, they're different brands, like say Audi and
>Skoda. The two brands share a common corporate parentage but advertise
>separately. They both buy parts from the same OEM (Openreach) but other
>features are different.
>
If an article in the paper a few weeks ago is correct then BT intend
to use EE for their consumer products and BT for business.

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 10:11:16 -0000 (UTC), Tweed
<usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>G.Fast was very much an exception to this. It was extremely limited in its
>roll out by OR, and OR lost interest in it fairly quickly as it was
>overtaken by FTTP. You also had to be within around 500 metres of the node
>to benefit. I think most ISPs simply didn’t bother adding this niche
>product to their business processes. My son’s property in Glasgow is in
>range of a G.Fast node. Zen make no mention of it, nor do Plusnet or BT
>Internet. However Andrews and Arnold do, including a speed estimate.
>However you do need to phone them as it appears that they have to instigate
>a manual order process.

Zen sold it for a while. By the time I asked them about it they'd
stopped selling it, although Openreach claimed it was still available
where I live.

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 16:39:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <l8cdbcF26fiU4@mid.individual.net>, at 12:09:26 on Thu, 18
>Apr 2024, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>>Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>> I know there's FTTP (I saw the engineers installing it about 18months
>>>ago). Nobody lit it for quite a long time, and today Uswitch doesn't
>>>show BT FTTP, but does show BT FTTC, so it can't be a "kick-back" issue.
>>
>>Every ISP I've tried shows FTTP is available to you, why do you put so
>>much faith in Uswitch?
>
>I don't "put faith" in them, but with limited time to trawl a hundred
>different ISP websites, I would tend to use a switcher-site for
>Internet, just like energy and car insurance.

You don't need to trawl a hundred of them, just the few that have been
recommended here as providers of the services you want.

You've said several times that FTTP is not available to you, but this
is apparently only on the authority of U-Switch, which looks like a
website that collates the offerings of lots of others. I would expect
individual companies' own websites to be more up to date.

Rod.

On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 16:32:51 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

> I'm prepared to buy from
>Plusnet because they appear to have a slightly more customer-focused
>ethic, although there were several things they messed up:
>
>For example delaying the installation date surreptitiously. OK they did
>send me the new date, but phrased as a "confirmation" of my original
>order, without saying "but sorry, in between you ordering it and now, we
>discovered the date we offered you is no longer available". Simply
>adding "Monday" to the date, would have flagged up it wasn't the
>'Thursday' I'd picked, and then spent considerable time clearing my
>diary.
>
>They kept talking about "sending you a router if you've ordered one",
>when the ordering process never asked whether I wanted one or not.
>
>In fact it was their SMS saying they'd dispatched it (at 4.30pm the day
>before I thought was booked for installation) which alerted me to the
>change of date.
>
>And finally, that the service will take a couple of weeks to stabilise
>the speed, when that's not appropriate for FTTP.

Those all look to me like good reasons to avoid such a company and
look for another one that offers a more coherent service.

Rod.

Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
> If an article in the paper a few weeks ago is correct then BT intend
> to use EE for their consumer products and BT for business.

Be interesting if that's so. I think there's a decent chunk of people who
are with BT as the 'reassuringly expensive' option. They've been with them
since 196x and aren't interested in shopping around, but they know BT works
and then they can't be bothered to see if the grass is greener elsewhere
so they just pay the renewal. If you punt those off to (what appears to
them) some cheapskate mobile phone company then they may decide they are
being pushed to switch and so will switch to some other brand.

A bit like telling people that Audi is no longer selling cars and they
should buy a VW. If you did that, quite likely some of those customers
would go and buy a BMW instead.

Theo

Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>> If an article in the paper a few weeks ago is correct then BT intend
>> to use EE for their consumer products and BT for business.
>
> Be interesting if that's so. I think there's a decent chunk of people who
> are with BT as the 'reassuringly expensive' option. They've been with them
> since 196x and aren't interested in shopping around, but they know BT works
> and then they can't be bothered to see if the grass is greener elsewhere
> so they just pay the renewal. If you punt those off to (what appears to
> them) some cheapskate mobile phone company then they may decide they are
> being pushed to switch and so will switch to some other brand.
>
> A bit like telling people that Audi is no longer selling cars and they
> should buy a VW. If you did that, quite likely some of those customers
> would go and buy a BMW instead.
>
> Theo
>

The normal way for such rebrandings is to run the new name next to the old
one for a while, making the new one increasingly prominent. There was a
programme about this on Radio 4 not too long ago. It’s a double edged sword
for BT. A large chunk of their customers are reassured by the BT brand, and
another large chunk are put off, largely by memories of being messed around
by an incumbent that has never quite managed to shake off the lethargy of
being a nationalised industry.

On Fri, 19 Apr 2024 09:28:09 +0100, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:

>On 18 Apr 2024 13:00:48 +0100 (BST), Theo
><theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:
>
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <NLy*YLdIz@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:20:11 on Thu,
>>> 18 Apr 2024, Theo <theom+news@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>> >
>>> >Uswitch is particularly useless for searching. If I search a randomly
>>> >selected Openreach FTTP+ADSL capable postcode (no 14, SG8 5QE) and filter by
>>> > >100Mbps there is no BT or EE listed as available. But that's because they
>>> >don't pay kickbacks to Uswitch, rather than any technical reason - if I go
>>> >to the BT and EE websites then they find FTTP.
>>> >
>>> >If you see the list of providers returned, it's only BT,
>>>
>>> Getting back to the branding issue, why "BT" and not "EE" if, as we are
>>> told, they are now one and the same.
>>
>>They aren't one and the same, they're different brands, like say Audi and
>>Skoda. The two brands share a common corporate parentage but advertise
>>separately. They both buy parts from the same OEM (Openreach) but other
>>features are different.
>>
>If an article in the paper a few weeks ago is correct then BT intend
>to use EE for their consumer products and BT for business.
>

When I see "EE" I think "English Electric".

In message <57d42jpc7j0sv7q5l24og84svchf4ivvsn@4ax.com>, at 10:12:32 on
Fri, 19 Apr 2024, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 16:32:51 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> I'm prepared to buy from
>>Plusnet because they appear to have a slightly more customer-focused
>>ethic, although there were several things they messed up:
>>
>>For example delaying the installation date surreptitiously. OK they did
>>send me the new date, but phrased as a "confirmation" of my original
>>order, without saying "but sorry, in between you ordering it and now, we
>>discovered the date we offered you is no longer available". Simply
>>adding "Monday" to the date, would have flagged up it wasn't the
>>'Thursday' I'd picked, and then spent considerable time clearing my
>>diary.
>>
>>They kept talking about "sending you a router if you've ordered one",
>>when the ordering process never asked whether I wanted one or not.
>>
>>In fact it was their SMS saying they'd dispatched it (at 4.30pm the day
>>before I thought was booked for installation) which alerted me to the
>>change of date.
>>
>>And finally, that the service will take a couple of weeks to stabilise
>>the speed, when that's not appropriate for FTTP.
>
>Those all look to me like good reasons to avoid such a company and
>look for another one that offers a more coherent service.

Too late, and as I keep saying, it was the least-worst available when I
used a switcher site. Based on my recent experience with EE (mobile) and
a lifetime of BT, I'd expect both of those to be much worse (although EE
wasn't offered).

Can we PLEASE get back to picking a VoIP operator now? I've asked for
the advice you imply is prudent, and got very little back so far.
--
Roland Perry

In message <kdc42jp7kpfeve3c3ope5q8ruauj10q2r8@4ax.com>, at 10:07:37 on
Fri, 19 Apr 2024, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 16:39:23 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <l8cdbcF26fiU4@mid.individual.net>, at 12:09:26 on Thu, 18
>>Apr 2024, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>> I know there's FTTP (I saw the engineers installing it about 18months
>>>>ago). Nobody lit it for quite a long time, and today Uswitch doesn't
>>>>show BT FTTP, but does show BT FTTC, so it can't be a "kick-back" issue.
>>>
>>>Every ISP I've tried shows FTTP is available to you, why do you put so
>>>much faith in Uswitch?
>>
>>I don't "put faith" in them, but with limited time to trawl a hundred
>>different ISP websites, I would tend to use a switcher-site for
>>Internet, just like energy and car insurance.
>
>You don't need to trawl a hundred of them, just the few that have been
>recommended here as providers of the services you want.

Point me to the group's FAQ. I haven't read it regularly for ten years
now.

>You've said several times that FTTP is not available to you,

Oh for heaven's sake. Do *try* to keep up. FTTP is available, but on
Uswitch only via a handful of ISPs.

>but this
>is apparently only on the authority of U-Switch, which looks like a
>website that collates the offerings of lots of others. I would expect
>individual companies' own websites to be more up to date.

It's not the up-to-date-ness (FTTP has been available here over a year)
but breadth of ISPs whose products are offered there.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <57d42jpc7j0sv7q5l24og84svchf4ivvsn@4ax.com>, at 10:12:32 on
> Fri, 19 Apr 2024, Roderick Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 16:32:51 +0100, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm prepared to buy from
>>> Plusnet because they appear to have a slightly more customer-focused
>>> ethic, although there were several things they messed up:
>>>
>>> For example delaying the installation date surreptitiously. OK they did
>>> send me the new date, but phrased as a "confirmation" of my original
>>> order, without saying "but sorry, in between you ordering it and now, we
>>> discovered the date we offered you is no longer available". Simply
>>> adding "Monday" to the date, would have flagged up it wasn't the
>>> 'Thursday' I'd picked, and then spent considerable time clearing my
>>> diary.
>>>
>>> They kept talking about "sending you a router if you've ordered one",
>>> when the ordering process never asked whether I wanted one or not.
>>>
>>> In fact it was their SMS saying they'd dispatched it (at 4.30pm the day
>>> before I thought was booked for installation) which alerted me to the
>>> change of date.
>>>
>>> And finally, that the service will take a couple of weeks to stabilise
>>> the speed, when that's not appropriate for FTTP.
>>
>> Those all look to me like good reasons to avoid such a company and
>> look for another one that offers a more coherent service.
>
> Too late, and as I keep saying, it was the least-worst available when I
> used a switcher site. Based on my recent experience with EE (mobile) and
> a lifetime of BT, I'd expect both of those to be much worse (although EE
> wasn't offered).
>
> Can we PLEASE get back to picking a VoIP operator now? I've asked for
> the advice you imply is prudent, and got very little back so far.

If you don’t mind not having bundled calls, ie only PAYG pricing, then A&A
is both low cost in terms of monthly charge, and is run by a technically
competent operator.