On 2024-02-06 13:45:03 +0000, charles said:

> In article <l2eodrFp9jgU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-02-06 10:49:37 +0000, occam said:
>
>>> On 05/02/2024 23:17, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>> occam <occam@erewhon.nix> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 05/02/2024 17:26, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, February 5, 2024 at 5:30:35?AM UTC-7, occam wrote:
>>>>>>> Here's an unusual 'Male/Female' toilet sign. It should appeal to the
>>>>>>> bird lovers in AUE.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There was a thread while ago discussing the symbolism of toilet signs in
>>>>>>> different cultures.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9jieh8djrjs10lr54scwx/Toilet-sign.jpg?rlkey
>>>> =5loulys3ydnlcvkcmcp4zcxqo&dl=0>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cute.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I suppose somebody somewhere has used a rooster and a cat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean 'cock' and 'pussy'. Note, these mental images which only
>>>>> make sense in English. Just as images of 'Venus' and 'Mars' only make
>>>>> sense in astronomy department toilets.
>>>>
>>>> ???
>>>> The traditional astronomical/astrological symbols for Venus and Mars
>>>> (circle with cross below and circle with diagonal up arrow)
>>>> have been widely taken over as male/female symbols,
>>>> in all of 'western' culture,
>>>
>>> Yes, I'd recognise the circle (with a cross / arrow) as male/female
>>> symbols. But I doubt if many people - outside of astrology charts -
>>> would attribute them as symbols for 'Venus' and 'Mars'. (The
>>> intermediate step has been lost except to star-sign columns.)
>>>
>>> I came across another interesting 'universal' symbol of male/female
>>> toilets. 'XX' and 'XY'. The problem is, most people would be walking
>>> into the wrong room 50% of the time, if they're anything like me.
>
>> When I was in Israel in 1962 I saw that they used 00 and 000 as
>> symbols. I suppose at the time I learned which was which. More recent
>> visits to Israel suggest that this system is no longer used.
>>>
>>> It's best to be more explicit (and less clever) in such cases.
>
>
> There was the Readers' Digest joke about the Americanin Germany looking
> hard for the one that said "Hissern"; he'd seen the one marked "Herren".

Italian can give similar problems: uomini e donne = women and dons?

(I typed this more than a week ago but forgot to press Send.)

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

Peter Moylan wrote:

>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
>> they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
>> different ways it can be done.
>
> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.

Okay. In Denmark the word covers both meanings.

--
Bertel, Denmark

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > Mark Brader wrote:
> >
> >>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in French.
> >>> He was not doing too well, and at some point the censor said
> >>> with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish that would be "Ser vi
> >>> det". The pupil then promtly said:
> >>>
> >>> servider, servidant, servidé
> >>
> >> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
> >
> > In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case the
> > censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during the
> > examination.
> >
> > PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
> > neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
> > appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
> > they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
> > different ways it can be done.
>
> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.
>
> There is a different English word for the thing you are describing, but
> for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.

For your knowledge of Dutch customs from long ago:
such a person was known as a 'gecommiteerde'.
In the days when quality high schools still existed
there were state exams, and exam committees to oversee them.
The outside members of such committees were the 'gecommitteerden'.
They sat in on the oral parts of the examinations,
and they had a say in the grading.
It was a job for retired professors, teachers, and so on.
Abolished of course, wih the massification of secondary education,

Jan

On 13/02/24 19:33, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-02-06 13:45:03 +0000, charles said:

>> There was the Readers' Digest joke about the Americanin Germany looking
>> hard for the one that said "Hissern"; he'd seen the one marked "Herren".
>
> Italian can give similar problems: uomini e donne = women and dons?
>
> (I typed this more than a week ago but forgot to press Send.)

I fell into the trap, in Italy, of thinking that the plural of Signor
was Signore.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 13/02/24 20:32, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Mark Brader wrote:
>>>
>>>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in
>>>>> French. He was not doing too well, and at some point the
>>>>> censor said with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish that
>>>>> would be "Ser vi det". The pupil then promtly said:
>>>>>
>>>>> servider, servidant, servidé
>>>>
>>>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
>>>
>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this
>>> case the censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent
>>> during the examination.
>>>
>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This
>>> way they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in
>>> which different ways it can be done.
>>
>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed
>> to read or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults
>> only" label on a movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from
>> military positions, and black out the sentences that could give
>> information to the enemy. Censorship is particularly strong in
>> counties with repressive governments.
>>
>> There is a different English word for the thing you are
>> describing, but for now I'm having a mental block and can't
>> remember the word. "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
>
> For your knowledge of Dutch customs from long ago: such a person was
> known as a 'gecommiteerde'. In the days when quality high schools
> still existed there were state exams, and exam committees to oversee
> them. The outside members of such committees were the
> 'gecommitteerden'. They sat in on the oral parts of the examinations,
> and they had a say in the grading. It was a job for retired
> professors, teachers, and so on. Abolished of course, wih the
> massification of secondary education,

State exams still exist in Australia, but only for the final year of
high school. The results for all subjects (or perhaps it's just the best
three subjects) are combined to create a single number (range 0..100)
called the Tertiary Admission Rank. This is sent to the University
Admissions Centre in that state, and it governs who will be offered a
university place. Everyone who wants to enter a university puts in an
application to the UAC -- not to the universities -- stating the order
of preference for the courses and universities that they want. All of
the universities in the state tell the UAC how many students they will
accept in each degree course. So the admissions aren't done by
individual universities, they just take advantage of the centralised
system. Grading is also centralised, and is typically done by retired
academics and teachers. I've never applied to do that job myself,
because I don't want to travel to Sydney. (But perhaps it's all on-line
now. I should check.)

The exams are sat in the schools, and I believe that the local teachers
do the supervising. Most exams are written. When an oral exam is needed
-- typically for a language subject -- examiners appointed by the
central body are sent to the schools.

After all these years, we still don't have a national education system.
That means that students who apply for entry to a university in a
different state have to be treated as special cases.

One consequence of our system is that each degree course has what we
call a "cuttof score", on a scale of 0 to 100. The universities don't
set these, but the high school kids think that they do, because it is
easy to look up the previous year's threshold. These are controlled by
supply and demand. For Medicine you're likely to need a score of 99.5 or
better. For a Bachelor of Basketweaving course the cutoff will be more
like 60. The bad part of this system is that the cutoff does not depend
on how difficult the degree course is[1], but mostly on the popularity
of the course. That means that the most intellectually demanding courses
are not necessarily getting the brightest kids.

[1] My university, and I suppose many others, had a policy of "equality
of esteem", which said that all subjects are equally intellectually
challenging. We all knew that that was bullshit, though. Somebody who
got high honours in a Bachelor of Economics degree would probably be
completely lost if you threw them into a first-year Physics subject.

In fact I got concrete evidence of that in a subject I used to teach,
Computer Engineering I. It just so happened that that subject attracted
students from a range of disciplines. Most of the students were
first-year students, but there were also some postgraduate students
doing things like Master of Business Administration. The students from
Electrical Engineering, Computer Science, Mechanical Engineering,
Mathematics and so on liked the subject and considered it to be an easy
subject. Students from some other places -- especially Education and
Business -- struggled badly, and complained that I was setting the
standard too high for a Masters-level subject.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Le 13/02/2024 à 03:29, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>
>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case the
>> censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during the
>> examination.
>>
>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
>> they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
>> different ways it can be done.
>
> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.
>
> There is a different English word for the thing you are describing, but
> for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.

I'm sure I've seen 'censor' in a university context - yes, here it is:

"2.c. 1691– In Universities and Colleges, the title of various
officials. At Oxford and Cambridge it is the title of the official Head
of the Non-collegiate or ‘Unattached’ Students; in the Royal College of
Physicians, the officers who grant licenses [...] 'All other candidates
for Membership shall be examined on the subjects of General Education by
the President and Censors of the College' [College of Physicians, 1885]"
- OED.

On 13/02/24 21:40, Hibou wrote:
> Le 13/02/2024 à 03:29, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>
>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case
>>> the censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during
>>> the examination.
>>>
>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This
>>> way they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in
>>> which different ways it can be done.
>>
>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to
>> read or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only"
>> label on a movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military
>> positions, and black out the sentences that could give information
>> to the enemy. Censorship is particularly strong in counties with
>> repressive governments.
>>
>> There is a different English word for the thing you are describing,
>> but for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
>> "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
>
> I'm sure I've seen 'censor' in a university context - yes, here it
> is:
>
> "2.c. 1691– In Universities and Colleges, the title of various
> officials. At Oxford and Cambridge it is the title of the official
> Head of the Non-collegiate or ‘Unattached’ Students; in the Royal
> College of Physicians, the officers who grant licenses [...] 'All
> other candidates for Membership shall be examined on the subjects of
> General Education by the President and Censors of the College'
> [College of Physicians, 1885]" - OED.

Etymonline gives only the meanings I'm used to. After describing the
historical origins, it says 'By the early decades of the 19c. the
meaning of the English word had concentrated into "state agent charged
with suppression of speech or published matter deemed politically
subversive."'

A web search for "censor university" led me to "Censorship - University
of Copenhagen" which gave me Bertel's meaning. It also led me to the
term that had slipped my mind: external examiner.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:12:28 PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> On 2024-02-12 21:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> >> Mark Brader wrote:
> >>
> >>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in French.
> >>>> He was not doing too well, and at some point the censor said
> >>>> with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish that would be "Ser vi
> >>>> det". The pupil then promtly said:
> >>>>
> >>>> servider, servidant, servidé
> >>>
> >>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
> >>
> >> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case the
> >> censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during the
> >> examination.
> >>
> >> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
> >> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
> >> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
> >> they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
> >> different ways it can be done.
> >
> > In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
> > or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
> > movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
> > black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
> > Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.
> >
> > There is a different English word for the thing you are describing, but
> > for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> > "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.

> proctor
> noun: (Canada, US) A person who supervises students as they take an
> examination, in the United States at the college/university level; often
> the department secretary, or a fellow/graduate student; an invigilator.

However, in my U.S. experience, there's a proctor only if the teacher isn't
available to supervise the test. I've never heard of a department
secretary doing that job, and I've never heard of any kind of external
examiner in the U.S.

--
Jerry Friedman

Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:12:28?PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> > On 2024-02-12 21:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
> > > On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> > >> Mark Brader wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in French.
> > >>>> He was not doing too well, and at some point the censor said
> > >>>> with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish that would be "Ser vi
> > >>>> det". The pupil then promtly said:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> servider, servidant, servidé
> > >>>
> > >>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
> > >>
> > >> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case the
> > >> censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during the
> > >> examination.
> > >>
> > >> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
> > >> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
> > >> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
> > >> they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
> > >> different ways it can be done.
> > >
> > > In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
> > > or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
> > > movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
> > > black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
> > > Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.
> > >
> > > There is a different English word for the thing you are describing, but
> > > for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> > > "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
>
> > proctor
> > noun: (Canada, US) A person who supervises students as they take an
> > examination, in the United States at the college/university level; often
> > the department secretary, or a fellow/graduate student; an invigilator.
>
> However, in my U.S. experience, there's a proctor only if the teacher isn't
> available to supervise the test. I've never heard of a department
> secretary doing that job, and I've never heard of any kind of external
> examiner in the U.S.

That is probably because you lack generally accepted
quality high schools and/or high quality high school examinations.
In continental Europe there were usually no entrance examinations
for universites. Anyone with a 'high school' diploma [1]
(of a 'high school' of the appropriate kind, gymnasium, lycee, etc.)
was automatically qualified for entrance at any university,
also internationally.

So, naturally, there were pretty stiff standards for final exams,
with state supervision to certify an appropriate level,

Jan

[1] As you probably know a European 'hochschule', 'hoge school', etc
is not the equivalent of your 'high school'.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 2:49:07 PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:12:28?PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> > > On 2024-02-12 21:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
....

> > > > There is a different English word for the thing you are describing, but
> > > > for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> > > > "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
> >
> > > proctor
> > > noun: (Canada, US) A person who supervises students as they take an
> > > examination, in the United States at the college/university level; often
> > > the department secretary, or a fellow/graduate student; an invigilator.
> >
> > However, in my U.S. experience, there's a proctor only if the teacher isn't
> > available to supervise the test. I've never heard of a department
> > secretary doing that job, and I've never heard of any kind of external
> > examiner in the U.S.

> That is probably because you lack generally accepted
> quality high schools and/or high quality high school examinations.

We don't lack the first, though some areas may lack them. The usual
entrance exams for the second are developed and administered by
private nonprofit companies, which provide their own proctors.

I believe many public colleges admit any student with a high school
diploma or GED and an SAT or ACT score above a certain level. Private
colleges with selective admissions look at other things as well.

> In continental Europe there were usually no entrance examinations
> for universites. Anyone with a 'high school' diploma [1]
> (of a 'high school' of the appropriate kind, gymnasium, lycee, etc.)
> was automatically qualified for entrance at any university,
> also internationally.
>
> So, naturally, there were pretty stiff standards for final exams,
> with state supervision to certify an appropriate level,

I've never heard of an external examiner at any level, including doctoral.
There might be some I haven't heard of.

> [1] As you probably know a European 'hochschule', 'hoge school', etc
> is not the equivalent of your 'high school'.

I knew that about "Gymnasium", anyway.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 14/02/24 08:49, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:12:28?PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-12 21:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>>> Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in
>>>>>>> French. He was not doing too well, and at some point the
>>>>>>> censor said with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish
>>>>>>> that would be "Ser vi det". The pupil then promtly said:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> servider, servidant, servidé
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
>>>>>
>>>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this
>>>>> case the censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent
>>>>> during the examination.
>>>>>
>>>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>>>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>>>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools.
>>>>> This way they get a broader view on how well teaching is done
>>>>> and in which different ways it can be done.
>>>>
>>>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are
>>>> allowed to read or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an
>>>> "Adults only" label on a movie. In wartime, censors read mail
>>>> to or from military positions, and black out the sentences that
>>>> could give information to the enemy. Censorship is particularly
>>>> strong in counties with repressive governments.
>>>>
>>>> There is a different English word for the thing you are
>>>> describing, but for now I'm having a mental block and can't
>>>> remember the word. "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
>>
>>> proctor noun: (Canada, US) A person who supervises students as
>>> they take an examination, in the United States at the
>>> college/university level; often the department secretary, or a
>>> fellow/graduate student; an invigilator.
>>
>> However, in my U.S. experience, there's a proctor only if the
>> teacher isn't available to supervise the test. I've never heard of
>> a department secretary doing that job, and I've never heard of any
>> kind of external examiner in the U.S.
>
> That is probably because you lack generally accepted quality high
> schools and/or high quality high school examinations. In continental
> Europe there were usually no entrance examinations for universites.
> Anyone with a 'high school' diploma [1] (of a 'high school' of the
> appropriate kind, gymnasium, lycee, etc.) was automatically qualified
> for entrance at any university, also internationally.
>
> So, naturally, there were pretty stiff standards for final exams,
> with state supervision to certify an appropriate level,

That reminds me of examiners' meetings when I was a university academic.
The exams were set and marked by the person running the subject, but the
results had to be certified by the Faculty Board, whose members were all
of the academics in that Faculty. Mostly it just rubber-stamped the
results, but it could question cases that looked abnormal: too high a
failure rate, too many students with marks in the 90-100 range, etc.

Each Faculty Board had representatives from other Faculties. For
example, the Engineering Faculty Board had a member from the Faculty of
Science, one from the Faculty of Arts, etc. The point of this was to
ensure that academic standards were consistent across the whole university.

With the rise of managerialism, where research and teaching were
considered to be less important than management, the powers of academics
was taken away, so this check on standards was lost.

External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For research
higher degrees, the examiners were required to be external, and
preferably in another country. This was to ensure that the standards
were consistent with world standards. As far as I know, that arrangement
is still used for PhD candidates.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, at 22:11:07, Peter Moylan posted:
>On 13/02/24 21:40, Hibou wrote:
>> Le 13/02/2024 à 03:29, Peter Moylan a écrit :
>>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case
>>>> the censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during
>>>> the examination.
>>>>
>>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This
>>>> way they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in
>>>> which different ways it can be done.
>>>
>>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to
>>> read or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only"
>>> label on a movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military
>>> positions, and black out the sentences that could give information
>>> to the enemy. Censorship is particularly strong in counties with
>>> repressive governments.
>>>
>>> There is a different English word for the thing you are describing,
>>> but for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
>>> "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
>>
>> I'm sure I've seen 'censor' in a university context - yes, here it
>> is:
>>
>> "2.c. 1691– In Universities and Colleges, the title of various
>> officials. At Oxford and Cambridge it is the title of the official
>> Head of the Non-collegiate or ‘Unattached’ Students; in the Royal
>> College of Physicians, the officers who grant licenses [...] 'All
>> other candidates for Membership shall be examined on the subjects of
>> General Education by the President and Censors of the College'
>> [College of Physicians, 1885]" - OED.
>
>Etymonline gives only the meanings I'm used to. After describing the
>historical origins, it says 'By the early decades of the 19c. the
>meaning of the English word had concentrated into "state agent charged
>with suppression of speech or published matter deemed politically
>subversive."'

The first Censor I think of is Cato ("Carthago delenda est"). Change
"politically" to read "morally" in the above claimed meaning, and you
find something within the purview of the Roman office, as I understand
it. To run the census when it was required, and to keep a watch on
public licentiousness.
>
>A web search for "censor university" led me to "Censorship - University
>of Copenhagen" which gave me Bertel's meaning. It also led me to the
>term that had slipped my mind: external examiner.
>
It surprises me that external examiners are un-American. How else can
you validate the standards of a degree-conferring academic institution?
--
Paul W

On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 4:09:06 PM UTC-7, Paul Wolff wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, at 22:11:07, Peter Moylan posted:
....

> >A web search for "censor university" led me to "Censorship - University
> >of Copenhagen" which gave me Bertel's meaning. It also led me to the
> >term that had slipped my mind: external examiner.
> >
> It surprises me that external examiners are un-American. How else can
> you validate the standards of a degree-conferring academic institution?

(In a country with between 3,500 and 4,000 degree-granting institutions--
the World-Wide Web is contradicting itself on the details.)

Heavens, gentlemen do not monitor the standards of other gentlemen as
if they were factory hands.

However, less than two hours ago I gave a student a copy of the final
exam he took last term so his next college can decide whether to give
him credit for the class. When I've been the receiver rather than the giver,
I've just looked at the syllabus of the class in the on-line catalog.

Some of us are disturbed that the state of New Mexico is enforcing
more standards on the material taught (not on test results) in courses
to make it easier for students to transfer from one college to another.
This is a free country! And that includes academic freedom. But that
applies only to state colleges, such as the community college I teach
at. The state has no control over private colleges or colleges in
other states.

Colleges are accredited by private non-profits. if a college loses its
accreditation, its graduates will have trouble finding jobs or transferring
to other institutions. We just had a visit from our accreditor (the
Higher Learning Commission, headquartered in Chicago), but I don't
think they looked at any tests.

--
Jerry Friedman

On 14/02/24 11:27, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 4:09:06 PM UTC-7, Paul Wolff wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, at 22:11:07, Peter Moylan posted:
> ...
>
>>> A web search for "censor university" led me to "Censorship -
>>> University of Copenhagen" which gave me Bertel's meaning. It also
>>> led me to the term that had slipped my mind: external examiner.
>>>
>> It surprises me that external examiners are un-American. How else
>> can you validate the standards of a degree-conferring academic
>> institution?
>
> (In a country with between 3,500 and 4,000 degree-granting
> institutions-- the World-Wide Web is contradicting itself on the
> details.)
>
> Heavens, gentlemen do not monitor the standards of other gentlemen
> as if they were factory hands.
>
> However, less than two hours ago I gave a student a copy of the
> final exam he took last term so his next college can decide whether
> to give him credit for the class. When I've been the receiver rather
> than the giver, I've just looked at the syllabus of the class in the
> on-line catalog.

A final exam is a better indicator than a syllabus. The syllabus lists
topics, but does not indicate the depth to which the topics are covered.

Years ago I was peripherally involved with a group that was designing a
new high school subject with a name like "Engineering Science". The
syllabus they came up with included practically every topic in the first
two years of a university Mechanical Engineering degree. By my
calculation, a teacher would have to cover the material at the rate of
about five minutes per topic. In practice, I think they were teaching
mainly woodwork and metalwork.

> Some of us are disturbed that the state of New Mexico is enforcing
> more standards on the material taught (not on test results) in
> courses to make it easier for students to transfer from one college
> to another. This is a free country! And that includes academic
> freedom. But that applies only to state colleges, such as the
> community college I teach at. The state has no control over private
> colleges or colleges in other states.
>
> Colleges are accredited by private non-profits. if a college loses
> its accreditation, its graduates will have trouble finding jobs or
> transferring to other institutions. We just had a visit from our
> accreditor (the Higher Learning Commission, headquartered in
> Chicago), but I don't think they looked at any tests.

There's a difference between accreditation by the state and
accreditation by a professional body. The latter includes people who
know what they are talking about.

Long ago I was employed as a casual teacher by Newcastle Technical
College, as it was then called, to teach an Automatic Control subject. I
discovered that this was very different from university teaching. The
subject content was controlled from Sydney and there was no flexibility
in what I could teach. The textbook was out of print and hard to obtain.
Many of the topics were about obsolete equipment. I suspect that the
person in charge of the syllabus had died, and nobody had thought to
find someone who could revise the syllabus.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 2:49:07?PM UTC-7, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Jerry Friedman <jerry.fr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:12:28?PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> > > > On 2024-02-12 21:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
> ...
>
> > > > > There is a different English word for the thing you are
> > > > > describing, but for now I'm having a mental block and can't
> > > > > remember the word.
> > > > > "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
> > >
> > > > proctor
> > > > noun: (Canada, US) A person who supervises students as they take an
> > > > examination, in the United States at the college/university level;
> > > > often the department secretary, or a fellow/graduate student; an
> > > > invigilator.
> > >
> > > However, in my U.S. experience, there's a proctor only if the teacher
> > > isn't available to supervise the test. I've never heard of a
> > > department secretary doing that job, and I've never heard of any kind
> > > of external examiner in the U.S.
>
> > That is probably because you lack generally accepted
> > quality high schools and/or high quality high school examinations.
>
> We don't lack the first, though some areas may lack them. The usual
> entrance exams for the second are developed and administered by
> private nonprofit companies, which provide their own proctors.
>
> I believe many public colleges admit any student with a high school
> diploma or GED and an SAT or ACT score above a certain level. Private
> colleges with selective admissions look at other things as well.

In these parts the first year of university
serves as a selective barrier.
Once you have passed the exams at the end of it
you are supposed to finnish without further selection.
There are exams of course, but these are not supposed to be selective.

> > In continental Europe there were usually no entrance examinations
> > for universites. Anyone with a 'high school' diploma [1]
> > (of a 'high school' of the appropriate kind, gymnasium, lycee, etc.)
> > was automatically qualified for entrance at any university,
> > also internationally.
> >
> > So, naturally, there were pretty stiff standards for final exams,
> > with state supervision to certify an appropriate level,
>
> I've never heard of an external examiner at any level, including doctoral.
> There might be some I haven't heard of.
>
> > [1] As you probably know a European 'hochschule', 'hoge school', etc
> > is not the equivalent of your 'high school'.
>
> I knew that about "Gymnasium", anyway.

State exams still exist, and many people take them.
(in these parts)
If you want to study at a university,
but never finished any secondary education
you can take the state exam to qualify.

It exists as either the full one, or partial ones.
Typical example, if you want to study law,
but never took any Latin and Greek,
you can do the state exam to qualify.
And conversely, if you want to take up medicine
but didn't take (enough) math, phys, and chem
you may need to take a state exam.
There are fees, and preparation is your own responsibility.

Even retired people take them,
when they want to obtain a university degree, after all,

Jan

Paul Wolff <bounceme@thiswontwork.wolff.co.uk> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Feb 2024, at 22:11:07, Peter Moylan posted:
> >On 13/02/24 21:40, Hibou wrote:
> >> Le 13/02/2024 à 03:29, Peter Moylan a écrit :
> >>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case
> >>>> the censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during
> >>>> the examination.
> >>>>
> >>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
> >>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
> >>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This
> >>>> way they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in
> >>>> which different ways it can be done.
> >>>
> >>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to
> >>> read or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only"
> >>> label on a movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military
> >>> positions, and black out the sentences that could give information
> >>> to the enemy. Censorship is particularly strong in counties with
> >>> repressive governments.
> >>>
> >>> There is a different English word for the thing you are describing,
> >>> but for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> >>> "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
> >>
> >> I'm sure I've seen 'censor' in a university context - yes, here it
> >> is:
> >>
> >> "2.c. 1691– In Universities and Colleges, the title of various
> >> officials. At Oxford and Cambridge it is the title of the official
> >> Head of the Non-collegiate or 'Unattached' Students; in the Royal
> >> College of Physicians, the officers who grant licenses [...] 'All
> >> other candidates for Membership shall be examined on the subjects of
> >> General Education by the President and Censors of the College'
> >> [College of Physicians, 1885]" - OED.
> >
> >Etymonline gives only the meanings I'm used to. After describing the
> >historical origins, it says 'By the early decades of the 19c. the
> >meaning of the English word had concentrated into "state agent charged
> >with suppression of speech or published matter deemed politically
> >subversive."'
>
> The first Censor I think of is Cato ("Carthago delenda est"). Change
> "politically" to read "morally" in the above claimed meaning, and you
> find something within the purview of the Roman office, as I understand
> it. To run the census when it was required, and to keep a watch on
> public licentiousness.

Cato (the Elder) was also a Censor in the Roman republican rank.
He was a conservative who tried to stop, or at least reduce,
the influence of Greek in Roman culture.
He insisted that Romans should write learned works in Latin
instead of in Greek.
In vain, a century later most of the Roman elite was bilingual.
They had to, because half the Empire spoke Greek.

> >A web search for "censor university" led me to "Censorship - University
> >of Copenhagen" which gave me Bertel's meaning. It also led me to the
> >term that had slipped my mind: external examiner.
> >
> It surprises me that external examiners are un-American. How else can
> you validate the standards of a degree-conferring academic institution?

They don't?

Jan

On 2024-02-13, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>> Mark Brader wrote:
>>
>>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in French.
>>>> He was not doing too well, and at some point the censor said
>>>> with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish that would be "Ser vi
>>>> det". The pupil then promtly said:
>>>>
>>>> servider, servidant, servidé
>>>
>>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
>>
>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case the
>> censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during the
>> examination.
>>
>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
>> they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
>> different ways it can be done.
>
> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.

I assumed this came from "censor librorum" (a kind of official in the
Roman Catholic Church), but I see from WP that ancient Roman censors
were in charge of public morality as well as the census.

> There is a different English word for the thing you are describing, but
> for now I'm having a mental block and can't remember the word.
> "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
>

--
A man can't just sit around.
---Larry Walters

On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:

>
> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For research
> higher degrees, the examiners were required to be external, and
> preferably in another country. This was to ensure that the standards
> were consistent with world standards. As far as I know, that arrangement
> is still used for PhD candidates.
>

Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD (Int.)"
after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD for one of
those.

On 14-Feb-24 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2024-02-13, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
>>> Mark Brader wrote:
>>>
>>>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in French.
>>>>> He was not doing too well, and at some point the censor said
>>>>> with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish that would be "Ser vi
>>>>> det". The pupil then promtly said:
>>>>>
>>>>> servider, servidant, servidé
>>>>
>>>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
>>>
>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this case the
>>> censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent during the
>>> examination.
>>>
>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools. This way
>>> they get a broader view on how well teaching is done and in which
>>> different ways it can be done.
>>
>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
>> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
>> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
>> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
>> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive governments.
>
> I assumed this came from "censor librorum" (a kind of official in the
> Roman Catholic Church), but I see from WP that ancient Roman censors
> were in charge of public morality as well as the census.

Not to be confused with the flaming handbag - censer.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 14/02/24 23:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:

> In these parts the first year of university serves as a selective
> barrier. Once you have passed the exams at the end of it you are
> supposed to finnish without further selection. There are exams of
> course, but these are not supposed to be selective.

Yes. In time I came to accept that a high failure rate in first year is
a perfectly normal state of affairs. Many students enter university
without a clear idea of what to expect. At least some come in with the
expectation that this will be a "party year".

I remember a time when there was strong political pressure on my
university to fix the "shocking" first year failure rate. The academics
were convinced, somewhat reluctantly, to make the exams easier to pass.
This did increase the pass rate, as intended. The following year there
was a massive jump in failures in second year subjects. The affected
students had wasted two years of their lives, instead of one.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>
> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
> for one of those.

Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
performers. It varies with discipline, of course.

One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
either small or absent altogether [1]. The pass/fail decision is judged
entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast, I've noticed that PhD
candidates in the US can spend a year or more as candidates before
they've even chosen (or been assigned) a research project.

[1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD candidate.
One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory Russian. Both
taught by the mathematics department, as it happened. Of course I also
had to do a lot of self-study on topics relevant to my research.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 15/02/24 07:36, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 14-Feb-24 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2024-02-13, Peter Moylan wrote:

>>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to read
>>> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label on a
>>> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
>>> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
>>> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive
>>> governments.
>>
>> I assumed this came from "censor librorum" (a kind of official in the
>> Roman Catholic Church), but I see from WP that ancient Roman censors
>> were in charge of public morality as well as the census.
>
> Not to be confused with the flaming handbag - censer.

When I was an altar boy I sometimes wondered what that incense was doing
to my lungs.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 14-Feb-24 22:58, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 15/02/24 07:36, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> On 14-Feb-24 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-13, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to
>>>> read
>>>> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label
>>>> on a
>>>> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions, and
>>>> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
>>>> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive
>>>> governments.
>>>
>>> I assumed this came from "censor librorum" (a kind of official in the
>>> Roman Catholic Church), but I see from WP that ancient Roman censors
>>> were in charge of public morality as well as the census.
>>
>> Not to be confused with the flaming handbag - censer.
>
> When I was an altar boy I sometimes wondered what that incense was doing
> to my lungs.

If you are still wondering, it can't have been too bad.

--
Sam Plusnet

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024 09:34:22 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 14/02/24 23:09, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
>> In these parts the first year of university serves as a selective
>> barrier. Once you have passed the exams at the end of it you are
>> supposed to finnish without further selection. There are exams of
>> course, but these are not supposed to be selective.
>
>Yes. In time I came to accept that a high failure rate in first year is
>a perfectly normal state of affairs. Many students enter university
>without a clear idea of what to expect. At least some come in with the
>expectation that this will be a "party year".
>
>I remember a time when there was strong political pressure on my

... 'political pressure' -- from politicians, I hope? The term can be
more general.

The University of Texas (Austin) in 1964 was a good university,
and cheap, and had to admit freshmen if they graduated from
a Texas high school in the top half (IIRC). English and biology
were two of the select-out courses, with high flunk rates.

The biology professor also mentioned that the department
resisted adding a not-for-science-majors version of the course,
partly because most of their eventual biology majors decided to
become biology majors AFTER taking the first course.

>university to fix the "shocking" first year failure rate. The academics
>were convinced, somewhat reluctantly, to make the exams easier to pass.
>This did increase the pass rate, as intended. The following year there
>was a massive jump in failures in second year subjects. The affected
>students had wasted two years of their lives, instead of one.

--
Rich Ulrich

On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:

> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>
>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>> for one of those.
>
> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>
> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
> either small or absent altogether [1]. The pass/fail decision is judged
> entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast, I've noticed that PhD
> candidates in the US can spend a year or more as candidates before
> they've even chosen (or been assigned) a research project.
>
> [1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD candidate.
> One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory Russian. Both
> taught by the mathematics department, as it happened. Of course I also
> had to do a lot of self-study on topics relevant to my research.

I'm intrigued by the Russian class taught by the mathematics dept. Was
is something specific like "Russian for Mathematicians and Engineers"?

--
The public has been sold a bill of goods about the free market being
a panacea for mankind. Turning corporations loose and letting the
profit motive run amok is not a prescription for a more livable
world. ---Tom Scholz