On 2024-02-15 11:04:39 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>>
>>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>> for one of those.
>>
>> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
>> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
>> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
>> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
>> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>>
>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
>> either small or absent altogether [1].

When I worked for my D.Phil. there was no course work, for me or anyone else.

>> The pass/fail decision is judged
>> entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast, I've noticed that PhD
>> candidates in the US can spend a year or more as candidates before
>> they've even chosen (or been assigned) a research project.
>>
>> [1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD candidate.
>> One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory Russian. Both
>> taught by the mathematics department, as it happened. Of course I also
>> had to do a lot of self-study on topics relevant to my research.
>
> I'm intrigued by the Russian class taught by the mathematics dept. Was
> is something specific like "Russian for Mathematicians and Engineers"?

--
athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

On 2024-02-14 19:48, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 14-Feb-24 22:58, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 15/02/24 07:36, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>>> On 14-Feb-24 12:41, Adam Funk wrote:
>>>> On 2024-02-13, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>>>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are allowed to
>>>>> read
>>>>> or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an "Adults only" label
>>>>> on a
>>>>> movie. In wartime, censors read mail to or from military positions,
>>>>> and
>>>>> black out the sentences that could give information to the enemy.
>>>>> Censorship is particularly strong in counties with repressive
>>>>> governments.
>>>>
>>>> I assumed this came from "censor librorum" (a kind of official in the
>>>> Roman Catholic Church), but I see from WP that ancient Roman censors
>>>> were in charge of public morality as well as the census.
>>>
>>> Not to be confused with the flaming handbag - censer.
>>
>> When I was an altar boy I sometimes wondered what that incense was
>> doing to my lungs.
>
> If you are still wondering, it can't have been too bad.

Well, he wasn't really incensed by it.

--
Decafalon (n.): The grueling event of getting through the day consuming
only things that are good for you.

On 15/02/24 22:04, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:

>> [1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD
>> candidate. One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory
>> Russian. Both taught by the mathematics department, as it happened.
>> Of course I also had to do a lot of self-study on topics relevant
>> to my research.
>
> I'm intrigued by the Russian class taught by the mathematics dept.
> Was is something specific like "Russian for Mathematicians and
> Engineers"?

The university had departments teaching French, German, Latin, Greek,
and Chinese, and over in the linguistics department they were teaching
Australian Sign Language, but Russian was not available. It was pure
coincidence that the person who needed to master Russian for his own
studies was a mathematician. He then tried to pass it on to others.

As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to read
technical papers. The main non-English research articles that I read and
were important to me were in German. No doubt there would have been
Russian publications that would have been useful had I known about them,
but I didn't read them. That was probably true of a large part of the
English-speaking research community.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, at 18:03:40, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>On 2024-02-15 11:04:39 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>
>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>>>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>>>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>>> for one of those.
>>> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
>>> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
>>> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
>>> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
>>> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
>>> either small or absent altogether [1].
>
>When I worked for my D.Phil. there was no course work, for me or anyone else.
>
Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over the
expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been non-academic
for over half a century. When I worked for my first degree, in Oxford
chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely research and a thesis
or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course. I was working in
a research group that included D.Phil. candidates too. The idea that a
candidate for a higher degree was expected to go back to the classroom
seemed very confused to me; blame the place that taught me, for my not
knowing that others looked at degree hierarchies differently.
--
Paul W

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
<peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>On 15/02/24 22:04, Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
>>> [1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD
>>> candidate. One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory
>>> Russian. Both taught by the mathematics department, as it happened.
>>> Of course I also had to do a lot of self-study on topics relevant
>>> to my research.
>>
>> I'm intrigued by the Russian class taught by the mathematics dept.
>> Was is something specific like "Russian for Mathematicians and
>> Engineers"?
>
>The university had departments teaching French, German, Latin, Greek,
>and Chinese, and over in the linguistics department they were teaching
>Australian Sign Language, but Russian was not available. It was pure
>coincidence that the person who needed to master Russian for his own
>studies was a mathematician. He then tried to pass it on to others.
>
>As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to read
>technical papers. The main non-English research articles that I read and
>were important to me were in German. No doubt there would have been
>Russian publications that would have been useful had I known about them,
>but I didn't read them. That was probably true of a large part of the
>English-speaking research community.

Is the foreign language requirement for degrees going to end?

Being able to struggle through some particular technical paper
seems to be irrelevant, unless the online translations are
worse at "technical" than I expect.

I can see learning a language as rounding out a liberal arts
education, especially for Americans who are usually monolingual.
But the requirement in science, asking for very minimal competency,
seems to have lost its relevance.

--
Rich Ulrich

On 16/02/24 10:35, Rich Ulrich wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
> <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 15/02/24 22:04, Adam Funk wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>>> [1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD
>>>> candidate. One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory
>>>> Russian. Both taught by the mathematics department, as it
>>>> happened. Of course I also had to do a lot of self-study on
>>>> topics relevant to my research.
>>>
>>> I'm intrigued by the Russian class taught by the mathematics
>>> dept. Was is something specific like "Russian for Mathematicians
>>> and Engineers"?
>>
>> The university had departments teaching French, German, Latin,
>> Greek, and Chinese, and over in the linguistics department they
>> were teaching Australian Sign Language, but Russian was not
>> available. It was pure coincidence that the person who needed to
>> master Russian for his own studies was a mathematician. He then
>> tried to pass it on to others.
>>
>> As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to read
>> technical papers. The main non-English research articles that I
>> read and were important to me were in German. No doubt there would
>> have been Russian publications that would have been useful had I
>> known about them, but I didn't read them. That was probably true
>> of a large part of the English-speaking research community.
>
> Is the foreign language requirement for degrees going to end?

In Australia it seems to have gone out the door anyway. When I was an
undergraduate at Melbourne University, 1965-68, there were three
subjects called Scientific French, Scientific German, and Scientific
Russian. Two of these were compulsory for all PhD candidates, and one
was compulsory for all Master's degree candidates. When I looked at the
exams for those subjects I concluded that they were Mickey Mouse
subjects. The final exam required translation from the subject language
to English, but not vice versa; dictionaries were allowed; and the time
allowed was generous. I judged that I could have passed the exams in all
three languages, even though the only language I had studied at high
school level was French.

As it turned out I left Melbourne and went to Newcastle for my
postgraduate degrees. Newcastle had no foreign language requirement.
I've just been googling Melbourne's language requirements today, and all
the hits seem to be about competence in English. The foreign language
requirement has disappeared.

> Being able to struggle through some particular technical paper seems
> to be irrelevant, unless the online translations are worse at
> "technical" than I expect.

In the era I was talking about there was no on-line translation. That's
a relatively recent development.

Five or ten years ago I was asked to translate a Russian Powerpoint
presentation into English. I said that I had close to zero competence in
Russian, but my boss said that was OK; at least I understood the
technical background, something that a professional translator might not
understand. The slides were very badly designed, because the author had
tried to fit in over 1000 words per slide, in addition to diagrams. (I
needed a magnifying glass for some of the work.) Nevertheless I found
that I could finish the job using Google Translate plus a couple of
dictionaries, plus of course what I knew about grammatical inflections
in Russian. (Dictionaries often only list the infinitive of a verb and
the nominative singular of a noun.) The only major problem I had was
with the frequent appearance of a word that meant both "coal-face" and
"slaughter", because only the "slaughter" meaning could be found in my
dictionaries and in web searches.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 2024-02-15 23:27:47 +0000, Paul Wolff said:

> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, at 18:03:40, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>> On 2024-02-15 11:04:39 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>
>>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>>>>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>>>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>>>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>>>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>>>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>>>>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>>>> for one of those.
>>>> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
>>>> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
>>>> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
>>>> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
>>>> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>>>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>>>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
>>>> either small or absent altogether [1].
>>
>> When I worked for my D.Phil. there was no course work, for me or anyone else.
>>
> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over the
> expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been non-academic
> for over half a century. When I worked for my first degree, in Oxford
> chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely research and a thesis
> or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.

Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.

> I was working in a research group that included D.Phil. candidates
> too. The idea that a candidate for a higher degree was expected to go
> back to the classroom seemed very confused to me; blame the place that
> taught me, for my not knowing that others looked at degree hierarchies
> differently.

--
athel -- biochemist, not a physicist, but detector of crackpots

On 14/02/2024 23:54, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>
>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>  I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>
>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>  for one of those.
>
> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>
> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
> either small or absent altogether [1].

"Absent altogether" in my case (UK). Having any formal coursework in
parallel would have ruined my enjoyment of research.

As it turned out, I did opt to sit in a couple of undergraduate AI
courses in a different part of the University (of London), purely out of
interest. 45 years ago AI (or Machine Learning) was not as fashionable
as it is today.

> The pass/fail decision is judged
> entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast, I've noticed that PhD
> candidates in the US can spend a year or more as candidates before
> they've even chosen (or been assigned) a research project.
>
> [1] As I recall it, I took only two subjects when I was a PhD candidate.
> One on normed linear spaces, and one on introductory Russian. Both
> taught by the mathematics department, as it happened. Of course I also
> had to do a lot of self-study on topics relevant to my research.
>

Rich Ulrich hat am 16.02.2024 um 00:35 geschrieben:
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan

>> As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to read
>> technical papers.

If it were true, the course would have been a failure, because becoming
able to read and understand Russian technical papers was its main
purpose. But it must have been a success, because you stated in another
posting that even decades later you managed to translate a Russian
Powerpoint presentation into English.

> Being able to struggle through some particular technical paper
> seems to be irrelevant, unless the online translations are
> worse at "technical" than I expect.

Whatever your expectations, make sure that a human being ***who knows
the subject well*** checks the online translations, if your interest
goes beyond just getting the gist of the meaning. If the online
translation misses a negation, the meaning is turned into its opposite.

On 16/02/24 17:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-02-15 23:27:47 +0000, Paul Wolff said:

>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over
>> the expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been
>> non-academic for over half a century. When I worked for my first
>> degree, in Oxford chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely
>> research and a thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part of
>> the course.
>
> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
> Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.

We have something vaguely similar here. For the Bachelor of Arts and the
Bachelor of Science degrees (but not for most other degrees), a Pass
degree takes three years. The better students can then apply to enter a
fourth Honours year. At the end of that year the degree can be awarded
with First Class or Second Class Honours. An award of Third Class
Honours is possible, but that is widely recognised to mean "Fail".

The content of the Honours year varies from department to department. In
some it will be advanced course work. In others it could be a research
project.

I'll add that an Engineering degree, at least in Newcastle, has a "major
project" component in fourth year that is worth one third of a year's
work. This is not usually original research, though; a good job of
engineering design can score well. Honours in Engineering is awarded on
the basis of all four years' results, not just the final year, although
a higher weighting is given to the more advanced subjects.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 16/02/24 18:51, Silvano wrote:
> Rich Ulrich hat am 16.02.2024 um 00:35 geschrieben:
>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
>
>>> As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to
>>> read technical papers.
>
> If it were true, the course would have been a failure, because
> becoming able to read and understand Russian technical papers was
> its main purpose. But it must have been a success, because you stated
> in another posting that even decades later you managed to translate
> a Russian Powerpoint presentation into English.

Well, yes, but with the aid of Google Translate and two very thick
dictionaries. (I do happen to own both a Russian-English and an
English-Russian.) I struggled my way through, but it was the very
opposite of fluency. Looking back on it, I'd say that I can read German
better than I can read Russian, even though I never studied German,
because in German I only need to use a dictionary for every second word.
Sometimes less, if it happens to be a paper containing lots of mathematics.

>> Being able to struggle through some particular technical paper
>> seems to be irrelevant, unless the online translations are worse
>> at "technical" than I expect.
>
> Whatever your expectations, make sure that a human being ***who knows
> the subject well*** checks the online translations, if your interest
> goes beyond just getting the gist of the meaning. If the online
> translation misses a negation, the meaning is turned into its
> opposite.

That was the point when I was asked to do a translation from Russian. My
boss, showing excellent judgement, wanted someone who understood the
engineering first and the funny alphabet second.

Now that I think of it, some teaching is needed for looking up
dictionaries. I recall being frustrated when my Russian dictionary did
not have an entry for шëл (went). It was obvious to everyone except me
that I should have been looking up the infinitive идти (go). And don't
get me started on the perfective aspect of Russian verbs.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 16/02/2024 06:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2024-02-15 23:27:47 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
>
>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, at 18:03:40, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>>> On 2024-02-15 11:04:39 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>>>>>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>>>>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>>>>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>>>>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>>>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>>>>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>>>>>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>>>>> for one of those.
>>>>> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
>>>>> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
>>>>> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
>>>>> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few
>>>>> high
>>>>> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>>>>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>>>>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the
>>>>> coursework
>>>>> either small or absent altogether [1].
>>>
>>> When I worked for my D.Phil. there was no course work, for me or
>>> anyone else.
>>>
>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over the
>> expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been non-academic
>> for over half a century. When I worked for my first degree, in Oxford
>> chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely research and a
>> thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.
>
> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
> Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.

Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk of
it was a research project.

There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint. Forestry?

>
>>  I was working in a research group that included D.Phil. candidates
>> too. The idea that a candidate for a higher degree was expected to go
>> back to the classroom seemed very confused to me; blame the place that
>> taught me, for my not knowing that others looked at degree hierarchies
>> differently.
>
>

--
Phil B

On 2024-02-16 10:12:17 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 16/02/24 18:51, Silvano wrote:
>> Rich Ulrich hat am 16.02.2024 um 00:35 geschrieben:
>>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
>>
>>>> As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to
>>>> read technical papers.
>>
>> If it were true, the course would have been a failure, because
>> becoming able to read and understand Russian technical papers was
>> its main purpose. But it must have been a success, because you stated
>> in another posting that even decades later you managed to translate
>> a Russian Powerpoint presentation into English.
>
> Well, yes, but with the aid of Google Translate and two very thick
> dictionaries. (I do happen to own both a Russian-English and an
> English-Russian.) I struggled my way through, but it was the very
> opposite of fluency. Looking back on it, I'd say that I can read German
> better than I can read Russian, even though I never studied German,
> because in German I only need to use a dictionary for every second word.
> Sometimes less, if it happens to be a paper containing lots of mathematics.
>
>>> Being able to struggle through some particular technical paper
>>> seems to be irrelevant, unless the online translations are worse
>>> at "technical" than I expect.
>>
>> Whatever your expectations, make sure that a human being ***who knows
>> the subject well*** checks the online translations, if your interest
>> goes beyond just getting the gist of the meaning. If the online
>> translation misses a negation, the meaning is turned into its
>> opposite.
>
> That was the point when I was asked to do a translation from Russian. My
> boss, showing excellent judgement, wanted someone who understood the
> engineering first and the funny alphabet second.
>
> Now that I think of it, some teaching is needed for looking up
> dictionaries. I recall being frustrated when my Russian dictionary did
> not have an entry for шëл (went). It was obvious to everyone except me
> that I should have been looking up the infinitive идти (go). And don't
> get me started on the perfective aspect of Russian verbs.

If I remember correctly you are learning Irish. Does that have
grammatical beginnings in the way many languages have grammatical
endings, like Welsh? For example, if you want to know what Welsh ardd
means you need to look up gardd. No doubt the mutations seem simple and
obvious to Welsh speakers, but for others they're a major obstacle for
learning Welsh.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 2024-02-16 10:21:51 +0000, Phil said:

> On 16/02/2024 06:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2024-02-15 23:27:47 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
>>
>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, at 18:03:40, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>>>> On 2024-02-15 11:04:39 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>>>>>>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For
>>>>>>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>>>>>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>>>>>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>>>>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>>>>>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>>>>>>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>>>>>> for one of those.
>>>>>> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
>>>>>> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
>>>>>> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
>>>>>> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
>>>>>> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>>>>>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>>>>>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
>>>>>> either small or absent altogether [1].
>>>>
>>>> When I worked for my D.Phil. there was no course work, for me or anyone else.
>>>>
>>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over the
>>> expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been non-academic
>>> for over half a century. When I worked for my first degree, in Oxford
>>> chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely research and a thesis
>>> or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.
>>
>> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
>> Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.
>
> Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
> think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk of
> it was a research project.

My recollection is that biochemistry was regarded as a kind of
chemistry (as it is, of course) and that the 4th year dealt with the
points of biochemistry that hadn't been dealt with in the three years
of chemistry. In those days I didn't regard myself as a biochemist, and
it was all mysterious to me.
>
> There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint. Forestry?
>
>>
>>>  I was working in a research group that included D.Phil. candidates
>>> too. The idea that a candidate for a higher degree was expected to go
>>> back to the classroom seemed very confused to me; blame the place that
>>> taught me, for my not knowing that others looked at degree hierarchies
>>> differently.

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On 16/02/2024 09:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
> At the end of that year the degree can be awarded
> with First Class or Second Class Honours. An award of Third Class
> Honours is possible, but that is widely recognised to mean "Fail".

Widely known (here) as a "Drinker's Degree"

--
Chris Elvidge, England
I WILL NOT SPANK OTHERS

On 16/02/2024 13:04, Chris Elvidge wrote:
> On 16/02/2024 09:44, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> At the end of that year the degree can be awarded
>> with First Class or Second Class Honours. An award of Third Class
>> Honours is possible, but that is widely recognised to mean "Fail".
>
> Widely known (here) as a "Drinker's Degree"
>
>

Just above a Third Class degree there is the 'Desmond'. Its slang
foreshortening of Desmond Tutu (African Bishop). 'Two, two' in the UK
stands for a 2-2 degree (below the 2-1), the Second Class degree being
subdivided into two tiers.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 11:37:32 +0100
Athel Cornish-Bowden <me@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 2024-02-16 10:12:17 +0000, Peter Moylan said:
>
> > On 16/02/24 18:51, Silvano wrote:
> >> Rich Ulrich hat am 16.02.2024 um 00:35 geschrieben:
> >>> On Fri, 16 Feb 2024 08:48:15 +1100, Peter Moylan
> >>
> >>>> As it turned out, I didn't learn enough Russian to be able to
> >>>> read technical papers.
> >>
> >> If it were true, the course would have been a failure, because
> >> becoming able to read and understand Russian technical papers was
> >> its main purpose. But it must have been a success, because you stated
> >> in another posting that even decades later you managed to translate
> >> a Russian Powerpoint presentation into English.
> >
> > Well, yes, but with the aid of Google Translate and two very thick
> > dictionaries. (I do happen to own both a Russian-English and an
> > English-Russian.) I struggled my way through, but it was the very
> > opposite of fluency. Looking back on it, I'd say that I can read German
> > better than I can read Russian, even though I never studied German,
> > because in German I only need to use a dictionary for every second word.
> > Sometimes less, if it happens to be a paper containing lots of mathematics.
> >
> >>> Being able to struggle through some particular technical paper
> >>> seems to be irrelevant, unless the online translations are worse
> >>> at "technical" than I expect.
> >>
> >> Whatever your expectations, make sure that a human being ***who knows
> >> the subject well*** checks the online translations, if your interest
> >> goes beyond just getting the gist of the meaning. If the online
> >> translation misses a negation, the meaning is turned into its
> >> opposite.
> >
> > That was the point when I was asked to do a translation from Russian. My
> > boss, showing excellent judgement, wanted someone who understood the
> > engineering first and the funny alphabet second.
> >
> > Now that I think of it, some teaching is needed for looking up
> > dictionaries. I recall being frustrated when my Russian dictionary did
> > not have an entry for шëл (went). It was obvious to everyone except me
> > that I should have been looking up the infinitive идти (go). And don't
> > get me started on the perfective aspect of Russian verbs.
>
> If I remember correctly you are learning Irish. Does that have
> grammatical beginnings in the way many languages have grammatical
> endings, like Welsh? For example, if you want to know what Welsh ardd
> means you need to look up gardd. No doubt the mutations seem simple and
> obvious to Welsh speakers, but for others they're a major obstacle for
> learning Welsh.
>
Use Wenglish, innit, butt.

Or print out a small card:

gardd - yr ardd
llygad - y lygad
ffenestr - y fenestr
peint - y beint
curry - y gurry

Simples!

Pontrhydfendigaeth - just don't to go there.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

> On 14/02/24 08:49, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Jerry Friedman <jerry.friedman99@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On Monday, February 12, 2024 at 9:12:28?PM UTC-7, lar3ryca wrote:
> >>> On 2024-02-12 21:29, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >>>> On 13/02/24 10:45, Bertel Lund Hansen wrote:
> >>>>> Mark Brader wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>> My mother told me about a classmate that took an exam in
> >>>>>>> French. He was not doing too well, and at some point the
> >>>>>>> censor said with some surprise "Oh, I see". In Danish
> >>>>>>> that would be "Ser vi det". The pupil then promtly said:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> servider, servidant, servidé
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Most of us don't have our exams administered by a censor!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In Denmark there's the teacher and a censor present. In this
> >>>>> case the censor made the remark. A censor need not be silent
> >>>>> during the examination.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> PS. A censor is either a collegue from the same school or a
> >>>>> neighbouring one (within the community), or it's a specially
> >>>>> appointed censor that travels to several different schools.
> >>>>> This way they get a broader view on how well teaching is done
> >>>>> and in which different ways it can be done.
> >>>>
> >>>> In English a censor is a person who controls what we are
> >>>> allowed to read or see. For example, it is a censor who puts an
> >>>> "Adults only" label on a movie. In wartime, censors read mail
> >>>> to or from military positions, and black out the sentences that
> >>>> could give information to the enemy. Censorship is particularly
> >>>> strong in counties with repressive governments.
> >>>>
> >>>> There is a different English word for the thing you are
> >>>> describing, but for now I'm having a mental block and can't
> >>>> remember the word. "Invigilator" is an approximate equivalent.
> >>
> >>> proctor noun: (Canada, US) A person who supervises students as
> >>> they take an examination, in the United States at the
> >>> college/university level; often the department secretary, or a
> >>> fellow/graduate student; an invigilator.
> >>
> >> However, in my U.S. experience, there's a proctor only if the
> >> teacher isn't available to supervise the test. I've never heard of
> >> a department secretary doing that job, and I've never heard of any
> >> kind of external examiner in the U.S.
> >
> > That is probably because you lack generally accepted quality high
> > schools and/or high quality high school examinations. In continental
> > Europe there were usually no entrance examinations for universites.
> > Anyone with a 'high school' diploma [1] (of a 'high school' of the
> > appropriate kind, gymnasium, lycee, etc.) was automatically qualified
> > for entrance at any university, also internationally.
> >
> > So, naturally, there were pretty stiff standards for final exams,
> > with state supervision to certify an appropriate level,
>
> That reminds me of examiners' meetings when I was a university academic.
> The exams were set and marked by the person running the subject, but the
> results had to be certified by the Faculty Board, whose members were all
> of the academics in that Faculty. Mostly it just rubber-stamped the
> results, but it could question cases that looked abnormal: too high a
> failure rate, too many students with marks in the 90-100 range, etc.
>
> Each Faculty Board had representatives from other Faculties. For
> example, the Engineering Faculty Board had a member from the Faculty of
> Science, one from the Faculty of Arts, etc. The point of this was to
> ensure that academic standards were consistent across the whole university.
>
> With the rise of managerialism, where research and teaching were
> considered to be less important than management, the powers of academics
> was taken away, so this check on standards was lost.
>
> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For research
> higher degrees, the examiners were required to be external, and
> preferably in another country. This was to ensure that the standards
> were consistent with world standards. As far as I know, that arrangement
> is still used for PhD candidates.

In the good old times it was not just the faculty board,
it was the 'Senate'.
(consisting of all professors, and chaired by the 'Rector Magnificus')

A big university might have as many of 25 of them,

Jan

occam <occam@nowhere.nix> wrote:

> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> >
> > External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects. For research
> > higher degrees, the examiners were required to be external, and
> > preferably in another country. This was to ensure that the standards
> > were consistent with world standards. As far as I know, that arrangement
> > is still used for PhD candidates.
> >
>
> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD (Int.)"
> after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD for one of
> those.

Depends on where your local source is,

Jan

On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:54:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan wrote:
....

> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
> either small or absent altogether [1]. The pass/fail decision is judged
> entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast, I've noticed that PhD
> candidates in the US can spend a year or more as candidates before
> they've even chosen (or been assigned) a research project.
....

That was true at the U. of I., but in practice the pass/fail decision was
based mostly on a qualifying exam during the first year and on the
dissertation. We all believed the reason for the "qual" (or "Qual", as they
say in German) was that the university needed more graduate teaching
assistants than it could support Ph. D. candidates.

(Illinois.)

--
Jerry Friedman

On 16/02/24 21:37, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>
> If I remember correctly you are learning Irish. Does that have
> grammatical beginnings in the way many languages have grammatical
> endings, like Welsh? For example, if you want to know what Welsh ardd
> means you need to look up gardd. No doubt the mutations seem simple
> and obvious to Welsh speakers, but for others they're a major
> obstacle for learning Welsh.

Yes, quite a problem in Irish. Irish has the expected grammatical
endings like verb inflections (and inflected prepositions!), but the
beginning of a word can be changed by two processes called lenition and
eclipsis.

Lenition changes a consonant to a "lighter" consonant. For example,
"mother" is "máthair", but "my mother" is "mo mháthair", where that mh
sounds like an English w.

Eclipsis replaces an initial consonant by a different one, in a pattern
that I haven't yet figured out. For example, the city of Cork is
"Corcaigh" in Irish, but "in Cork" is "i gCorcaigh", where the 'g' is
pronounced but the 'C' is not.

I'm reluctant to call these grammatical inflections, because they don't
seem to have a grammatical function. It's just that certain words
trigger a change in the following word.

My latest lesson has been on plurals. How do you form the plural of a
noun? Answer: differently for each noun, in no discernible pattern.

A most frustrating language.

On the positive side, my Irish dictionary does have pointers like
bhfuil vb see bí

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

On 17/02/24 08:17, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 3:54:33 PM UTC-7, Peter Moylan
> wrote: ...
>
>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the
>> coursework either small or absent altogether [1]. The pass/fail
>> decision is judged entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast,
>> I've noticed that PhD candidates in the US can spend a year or more
>> as candidates before they've even chosen (or been assigned) a
>> research project.
> ...
>
> That was true at the U. of I., but in practice the pass/fail decision
> was based mostly on a qualifying exam during the first year and on
> the dissertation. We all believed the reason for the "qual" (or
> "Qual", as they say in German) was that the university needed more
> graduate teaching assistants than it could support Ph. D.
> candidates.
>
> (Illinois.)

I once taught a postgraduate subject at UC Berkeley, and I was assigned
a teaching assistant who had just arrived from MIT. There's some rivalry
between Berkeley and MIT, and it seemed that my TA was out to show those
hicks what someone from a real university could do. I think he got a
shock when he discovered that I knew more about the subject than he did.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW

In article <uqjgb5$2rq8l$1@dont-email.me>,
Peter Moylan <peter@pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:

>One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
>either small or absent altogether [1]. The pass/fail decision is judged
>entirely on the final dissertation. In contrast, I've noticed that PhD
>candidates in the US can spend a year or more as candidates before
>they've even chosen (or been assigned) a research project.

In my place, I was surprised to learn about a decade ago that there is
such a thing as a "graduate minor" and CS students are required to
choose one.

The general rule here is that graduate-level coursework is required
for the S.M. which is a milestone for the Ph.D. Students who are
admitted with a master's have less coursework required, although they
may choose to do more if necessary preparation for their intended
research.

There are two separate qualifying examinations for Ph.D.[1] students:
a technical exam, which is based on previously completed coursework,
and a research exam, which is based on previously published research
(typically papers or conference presentations). The TQE is about
whether the student has sufficient subject-matter knowledge to
successfully complete the program, and comes first (and can be waived
by the department). The RQE tests whether the student has displayed
sufficient aptitude in performing independent research to receive a
long-term financial commitment from the department. (Some schools
combine these.)

-GAWollman

[1] Sc.D. is also available, at the student's preference, with the
same requirements as the Ph.D., so foreign students can get whichever
credential is most relevant/prestigious in their home country.
--
Garrett A. Wollman | "Act to avoid constraining the future; if you can,
wollman@bimajority.org| act to remove constraint from the future. This is
Opinions not shared by| a thing you can do, are able to do, to do together."
my employers. | - Graydon Saunders, _A Succession of Bad Days_ (2015)

On 2024-02-16 23:17:40 +0000, Peter Moylan said:

> On 16/02/24 21:37, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>
>> If I remember correctly you are learning Irish. Does that have
>> grammatical beginnings in the way many languages have grammatical
>> endings, like Welsh? For example, if you want to know what Welsh ardd
>> means you need to look up gardd. No doubt the mutations seem simple
>> and obvious to Welsh speakers, but for others they're a major
>> obstacle for learning Welsh.
>
> Yes, quite a problem in Irish. Irish has the expected grammatical
> endings like verb inflections (and inflected prepositions!), but the
> beginning of a word can be changed by two processes called lenition and
> eclipsis.
>
> Lenition changes a consonant to a "lighter" consonant. For example,
> "mother" is "máthair", but "my mother" is "mo mháthair", where that mh
> sounds like an English w.
>
> Eclipsis replaces an initial consonant by a different one, in a pattern
> that I haven't yet figured out. For example, the city of Cork is
> "Corcaigh" in Irish, but "in Cork" is "i gCorcaigh", where the 'g' is
> pronounced but the 'C' is not.
>
> I'm reluctant to call these grammatical inflections, because they don't
> seem to have a grammatical function. It's just that certain words
> trigger a change in the following word.
>
> My latest lesson has been on plurals. How do you form the plural of a
> noun? Answer: differently for each noun, in no discernible pattern.

That's pretty much how it is in Welsh. My book said that the rules were
complicated, but I wasn't able to discern any trules.
>
> A most frustrating language.
>
> On the positive side, my Irish dictionary does have pointers like
> bhfuil vb see bí

--
Athel -- French and British, living in Marseilles for 36 years; mainly
in England until 1987.

On Fri, 16 Feb 2024, at 12:14:24, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>On 2024-02-16 10:21:51 +0000, Phil said:
>> On 16/02/2024 06:54, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>>> On 2024-02-15 23:27:47 +0000, Paul Wolff said:
>>>> On Thu, 15 Feb 2024, at 18:03:40, Athel Cornish-Bowden posted:
>>>>> On 2024-02-15 11:04:39 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>>>>> On 2024-02-14, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 15/02/24 01:28, occam wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 13/02/2024 23:51, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> External examiners weren't used for undergraduate subjects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> research higher degrees, the examiners were required to be
>>>>>>>>> external, and preferably in another country. This was to ensure
>>>>>>>>> that the standards were consistent with world standards. As far as
>>>>>>>>> I know, that arrangement is still used for PhD candidates.
>>>>>>>> Ooh! Does that mean the successful PhD candidates can put "PhD
>>>>>>>> (Int.)" after their name? I'd gladly exchange my locally sourced PhD
>>>>>>>> for one of those.
>>>>>>> Unfortunately not. However, there is some awareness in the academic
>>>>>>> world of which universities, for a given discipline, have a high
>>>>>>> standard of research performance. This is easier to track than
>>>>>>> undergraduate degrees, because in research there are relatively few high
>>>>>>> performers. It varies with discipline, of course.
>>>>>>> One way in which an Australian PhD differs from that in some other
>>>>>>> countries is that the research project is paramount, with the coursework
>>>>>>> either small or absent altogether [1].
>>>>> When I worked for my D.Phil. there was no course work, for me or
>>>>>anyone else.
>>>>>
>>>> Thank you Athel for the clarification. I've been struggling over
>>>>the expression "course work" in this discussion, as I've been
>>>>non-academic for over half a century. When I worked for my first
>>>>degree, in Oxford chemistry as Athel did, the final year was purely
>>>>research and a thesis or dissertation, so to me that was part of the course.
>>> Yes, but the 4th year in chemistry was a bit of an anomaly, even at
>>>Oxford. I don't think any other subject, not even physics, had it.
>> Biochemistry too, in my time at least -- you were earlier than me, I
>>think. Although that fourth year wasn't purely research, a big chunk
>>of it was a research project.
>
>My recollection is that biochemistry was regarded as a kind of
>chemistry (as it is, of course) and that the 4th year dealt with the
>points of biochemistry that hadn't been dealt with in the three years
>of chemistry. In those days I didn't regard myself as a biochemist, and
>it was all mysterious to me.
>> There were a few other four-year courses, but my memory is faint.
>>Forestry?
>>
Metallurgy. I don't know how I missed it - in my fourth year, I shared a
remote cottage with three other contemporaries from the same college,
and we were all some kind of chemist - apart from me, there were two
biochemists and one metallurgist, the latter also doing a Part II
research project (and contributing to my own Part II because he was a
master of X-ray diffraction as well as being a friend).

Somewhat relevant, as fourth year students we were treated as graduates
by some University regulations, meaning we were allowed to live beyond
the city boundaries and to drive motor vehicles in the city without
exhibiting a green light at the front. Or if we weren't allowed, we did,
anyway. And perhaps other easements. For chemistry, had we been utter
failures in the Part II (fourth year's research), we'd still have been
given a pass decree, just no honours classification. That happened to
another friend who failed his third year and was allowed to re-take it,
forfeiting his Part II year. He ended up as a successful chemical
translator, from Russian and Japanese I think.
>>>
>>>>  I was working in a research group that included D.Phil. candidates
>>>>too. The idea that a candidate for a higher degree was expected to
>>>>go back to the classroom seemed very confused to me; blame the
>>>>place that taught me, for my not knowing that others looked at
>>>>degree hierarchies differently.
>
>

--
Paul W