On 12/31/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
>>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personal Records
>>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
>>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
>>>>>>> for sure!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
>>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
>>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
>>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
>>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
>>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
>>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
>>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
>>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
>>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
>>>>>>>> Activities
>>>>>>>> Activities 640
>>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
>>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
>>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
>>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
>>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
>>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
>>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
>>>>>>> it up with him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
>>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
>>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
>>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
>>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
>>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
>>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
>>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
>>>>>
>>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
>>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
>>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
>>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
>>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
>>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
>>>> rapid at times though!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
>>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
>>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
>>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
>>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
>>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
>>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
>>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
>>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
>>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
>>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
>>> full out down an 11 or 12
>>>
>>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
>>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
>>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
>>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
>>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
>>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
>>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
>>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
>>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
>>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
>>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On
>>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
>>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
>>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
>>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
>>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
>>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
>>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
>>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
>>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
>>>
>> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
>> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
>> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
>> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
>> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
>> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
>> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
>>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
>>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
>>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
>>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
>>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
>>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
>>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
>>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
>>>
>> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
>> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
>> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
>> watch.
>>
>> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
>> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of 11% not much of that.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:09 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/31/2023 10:42 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> >>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Personal Records
> >>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> >>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> >>>>>>> for sure!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> >>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> >>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> >>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> >>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> >>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> >>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> >>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> >>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> >>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
> >>>>>>>> Activities
> >>>>>>>> Activities 640
> >>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> >>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> >>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
> >>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> >>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> >>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> >>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> >>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> >>>>>>> it up with him.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> >>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> >>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> >>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> >>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> >>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> >>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> >>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> >>>>>
> >>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> >>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> >>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> >>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> >>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> >>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> >>>> rapid at times though!
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
> >>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
> >>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
> >>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> >>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
> >>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
> >>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
> >>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
> >>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
> >>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
> >>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
> >>> full out down an 11 or 12
> >>>
> >>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
> >>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
> >>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
> >>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
> >>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
> >>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
> >>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
> >>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
> >>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
> >>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
> >>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On
> >>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
> >>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
> >>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
> >>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
> >>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
> >>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
> >>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
> >>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
> >>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> >>>
> >> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
> >> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
> >> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
> >> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
> >> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
> >> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
> >> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
> >>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> >>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
> >>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
> >>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
> >>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
> >>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
> >>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
> >>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> >>>
> >> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
> >> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
> >> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
> >> watch.
> >>
> >> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
> >> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of 11% not much of that.
> The statement "Weight has nothing to do with it" is evidence of physics
> ignorance.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

Tom Kunich <cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
>>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Personal Records
>>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
>>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
>>>>>>> for sure!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
>>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
>>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
>>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
>>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
>>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
>>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
>>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
>>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
>>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
>>>>>>>> Activities
>>>>>>>> Activities 640
>>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
>>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
>>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
>>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
>>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
>>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
>>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
>>>>>>> it up with him.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
>>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
>>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
>>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
>>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
>>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
>>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
>>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
>>>>>
>>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
>>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
>>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
>>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
>>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
>>>>
>>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
>>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
>>>> rapid at times though!
>>>>
>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
>>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
>>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
>>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
>>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
>>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
>>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
>>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
>>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
>>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
>>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
>>> full out down an 11 or 12
>>>
>>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
>>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
>>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
>>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
>>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
>>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
>>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
>>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
>>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
>>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
>>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On
>>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
>>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
>>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
>>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
>>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
>>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
>>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
>>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
>>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
>>>
>> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
>> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
>> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
>> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
>> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
>> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
>> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
>>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
>>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
>>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
>>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
>>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
>>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
>>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
>>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
>>>
>> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
>> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
>> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
>> watch.
>>
>> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
>> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight
> has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of
> 11% not much of that.
>
To have any chance need the grade to be consistent high not just peaks,
even then would need substantial amounts of power, or weight.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:12:36 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:20:13 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > >> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> > > >>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Personal Records
> > > >>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> > > >>>
> > > >>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> > > >>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> > > >>> for sure!
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> > > >>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> > > >>>
> > > >>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> > > >>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> > > >>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> > > >>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> > > >>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> > > >> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> > > >> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> > > >> Brighton for fish and chips!
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> > > >>>> Lifetime Totals
> > > >>>> Activities
> > > >>>> Activities 640
> > > >>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> > > >>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> > > >>>> Calories 903,642
> > > >>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> > > >>>
> > > >>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> > > >>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> > > >>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> > > >>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> > > >>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> > > >>> it up with him.
> > > >>>
> > > >> Roger Merriman
> > > >
> > > > Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> > > > Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> > > > bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> > > > Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> > > Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> > > gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> > > normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> > > >
> > > > Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> > > > that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> > > >
> > > He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> > > is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> > > very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> > > and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> > > the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> > >
> > > Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> > > in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> > > rapid at times though!
> > >
> > > Roger Merriman
> > Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> > It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open, have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go full out down an 11 or 12
> >
> > 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11% downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> >
> > How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> > Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> Nope a pro cyclist doesn’t TYPICALLY descent at 100 km/hr. Typically I would say between hairpins 70-85 km/hr. Even for a pro cyclists for 100 km/hr the circumstances should be right, they do but not typically.
>
> Lou
Fastest Recorded Speed: 63.1 mph
The fastest recorded speed of the Tour de France came from German Nils Politt while descending Col de Vars during stage 18 of the race. This was the second of four climbs in the stage, and Politt was the first-ever rider to break the 100 km/hr barrier by traveling at a speed of 101.5 km.hr on this descent.

And this was recorded with a speed gun and one place. Others that could have been faster were not actually measured and MANY riders decend faster than this German rider.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> >>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Personal Records
> >>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> >>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> >>>>>>> for sure!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> >>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> >>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> >>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> >>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> >>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> >>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> >>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> >>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> >>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
> >>>>>>>> Activities
> >>>>>>>> Activities 640
> >>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> >>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> >>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
> >>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> >>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> >>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> >>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> >>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> >>>>>>> it up with him.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> >>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> >>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> >>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> >>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> >>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> >>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> >>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> >>>>>
> >>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> >>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> >>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> >>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> >>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> >>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> >>>> rapid at times though!
> >>>>
> >>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>
> >>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
> >>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
> >>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
> >>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> >>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
> >>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
> >>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
> >>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
> >>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
> >>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
> >>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
> >>> full out down an 11 or 12
> >>>
> >>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
> >>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
> >>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
> >>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
> >>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
> >>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
> >>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
> >>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
> >>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
> >>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
> >>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On
> >>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
> >>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
> >>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
> >>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
> >>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
> >>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
> >>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
> >>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
> >>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> >>>
> >> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
> >> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
> >> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
> >> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
> >> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
> >> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
> >> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
> >>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> >>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
> >>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
> >>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
> >>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
> >>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
> >>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
> >>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> >>>
> >> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
> >> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
> >> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
> >> watch.
> >>
> >> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
> >> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight
> > has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of
> > 11% not much of that.
> >
> To have any chance need the grade to be consistent high not just peaks,
> even then would need substantial amounts of power, or weight.
>
> And yes weight does matter, some of my ride companions are light folks, ie
> 50/60kg women and it’s fairly obvious that on even fairly gentle rolling
> stuff, that I’ll pull away freewheeling, I’m 95kg give or take unless they
> pedal to keep up, on longer bigger hills the gap gets bigger.
>
> on the larger Welsh hills the gap is over beyond seconds into minutes these
> are much fitter and competitive folks, for example they probably didn’t
> need to brake but I will scrub some as I don’t like blind corners at speed.
>
> Roger Merriman
Roger, the force of gravity operates exactly the same on ALL bodies. That is 6th grade physics. The different is entirely aerodynamic drag, and rolling resistance.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:20:46 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:12:36 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:20:13 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > >> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > >>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> > > > >>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Personal Records
> > > > >>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> > > > >>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> > > > >>> for sure!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> > > > >>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> > > > >>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> > > > >>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> > > > >>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> > > > >>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> > > > >> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> > > > >> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> > > > >> Brighton for fish and chips!
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> > > > >>>> Lifetime Totals
> > > > >>>> Activities
> > > > >>>> Activities 640
> > > > >>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> > > > >>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> > > > >>>> Calories 903,642
> > > > >>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> > > > >>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> > > > >>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> > > > >>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> > > > >>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> > > > >>> it up with him.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >> Roger Merriman
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> > > > > Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> > > > > bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> > > > > Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> > > > Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> > > > gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> > > > normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> > > > > that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> > > > >
> > > > He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> > > > is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> > > > very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> > > > and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> > > > the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> > > >
> > > > Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> > > > in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> > > > rapid at times though!
> > > >
> > > > Roger Merriman
> > > Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> > > It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open, have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go full out down an 11 or 12
> > >
> > > 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11% downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> > >
> > > How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> > > Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> > Nope a pro cyclist doesn’t TYPICALLY descent at 100 km/hr. Typically I would say between hairpins 70-85 km/hr. Even for a pro cyclists for 100 km/hr the circumstances should be right, they do but not typically.
> >
> > Lou
> Fastest Recorded Speed: 63.1 mph
> The fastest recorded speed of the Tour de France came from German Nils Politt while descending Col de Vars during stage 18 of the race. This was the second of four climbs in the stage, and Politt was the first-ever rider to break the 100 km/hr barrier by traveling at a speed of 101.5 km.hr on this descent.
>
> And this was recorded with a speed gun and one place. Others that could have been faster were not actually measured and MANY riders decend faster than this German rider.

Geezz, I'm not arguing that pro riders can descent at 100+ km/hr if the circumstances are right they just don't do that typically. I climbed the Col de Vars btw in both directions. The downhill towards Guillestre has long straight stretches. I can't remember that it was that steep. The downhill towards Barcelonette has steeper section but more hairpins.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:28:13 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > >>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> > >>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Personal Records
> > >>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> > >>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> > >>>>>>> for sure!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> > >>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> > >>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> > >>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> > >>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> > >>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> > >>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> > >>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> > >>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> > >>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
> > >>>>>>>> Activities
> > >>>>>>>> Activities 640
> > >>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> > >>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> > >>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
> > >>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> > >>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> > >>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> > >>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> > >>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> > >>>>>>> it up with him.
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Roger Merriman
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> > >>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> > >>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> > >>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> > >>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> > >>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> > >>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> > >>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> > >>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> > >>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> > >>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> > >>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> > >>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> > >>>> rapid at times though!
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Roger Merriman
> > >>>
> > >>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
> > >>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
> > >>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
> > >>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> > >>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
> > >>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
> > >>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
> > >>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
> > >>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
> > >>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
> > >>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
> > >>> full out down an 11 or 12
> > >>>
> > >>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
> > >>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
> > >>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
> > >>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
> > >>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
> > >>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
> > >>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
> > >>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
> > >>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
> > >>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
> > >>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On
> > >>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
> > >>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
> > >>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
> > >>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
> > >>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
> > >>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
> > >>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
> > >>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
> > >>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> > >>>
> > >> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
> > >> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
> > >> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
> > >> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
> > >> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
> > >> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
> > >> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
> > >>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> > >>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
> > >>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
> > >>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
> > >>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
> > >>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
> > >>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
> > >>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> > >>>
> > >> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
> > >> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
> > >> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
> > >> watch.
> > >>
> > >> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
> > >> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
> > >>
> > >> Roger Merriman
> > > In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight
> > > has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of
> > > 11% not much of that.
> > >
> > To have any chance need the grade to be consistent high not just peaks,
> > even then would need substantial amounts of power, or weight.
> >
> > And yes weight does matter, some of my ride companions are light folks, ie
> > 50/60kg women and it’s fairly obvious that on even fairly gentle rolling
> > stuff, that I’ll pull away freewheeling, I’m 95kg give or take unless they
> > pedal to keep up, on longer bigger hills the gap gets bigger.
> >
> > on the larger Welsh hills the gap is over beyond seconds into minutes these
> > are much fitter and competitive folks, for example they probably didn’t
> > need to brake but I will scrub some as I don’t like blind corners at speed.
> >
> > Roger Merriman
> Roger, the force of gravity operates exactly the same on ALL bodies. That is 6th grade physics. The different is entirely aerodynamic drag, and rolling resistance.

On 12/31/2023 2:37 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:28:13 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
>>>>>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Personal Records
>>>>>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
>>>>>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
>>>>>>>>>> for sure!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
>>>>>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
>>>>>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
>>>>>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
>>>>>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
>>>>>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
>>>>>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
>>>>>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
>>>>>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
>>>>>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
>>>>>>>>>>> Activities
>>>>>>>>>>> Activities 640
>>>>>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
>>>>>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
>>>>>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
>>>>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
>>>>>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
>>>>>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
>>>>>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
>>>>>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
>>>>>>>>>> it up with him.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
>>>>>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
>>>>>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
>>>>>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
>>>>>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
>>>>>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
>>>>>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
>>>>>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
>>>>>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
>>>>>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
>>>>>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
>>>>>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
>>>>>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
>>>>>>> rapid at times though!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
>>>>>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
>>>>>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
>>>>>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
>>>>>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
>>>>>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
>>>>>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
>>>>>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
>>>>>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
>>>>>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
>>>>>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
>>>>>> full out down an 11 or 12
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
>>>>>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
>>>>>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
>>>>>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
>>>>>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
>>>>>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
>>>>>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
>>>>>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
>>>>>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
>>>>>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
>>>>>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On
>>>>>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
>>>>>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
>>>>>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
>>>>>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
>>>>>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
>>>>>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
>>>>>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
>>>>>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
>>>>>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
>>>>> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
>>>>> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
>>>>> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
>>>>> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
>>>>> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
>>>>> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
>>>>>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
>>>>>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
>>>>>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
>>>>>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
>>>>>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
>>>>>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
>>>>>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
>>>>>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
>>>>>>
>>>>> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
>>>>> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
>>>>> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
>>>>> watch.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
>>>>> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roger Merriman
>>>> In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight
>>>> has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of
>>>> 11% not much of that.
>>>>
>>> To have any chance need the grade to be consistent high not just peaks,
>>> even then would need substantial amounts of power, or weight.
>>>
>>> And yes weight does matter, some of my ride companions are light folks, ie
>>> 50/60kg women and it’s fairly obvious that on even fairly gentle rolling
>>> stuff, that I’ll pull away freewheeling, I’m 95kg give or take unless they
>>> pedal to keep up, on longer bigger hills the gap gets bigger.
>>>
>>> on the larger Welsh hills the gap is over beyond seconds into minutes these
>>> are much fitter and competitive folks, for example they probably didn’t
>>> need to brake but I will scrub some as I don’t like blind corners at speed.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>> Roger, the force of gravity operates exactly the same on ALL bodies. That is 6th grade physics. The different is entirely aerodynamic drag, and rolling resistance.
>
> But not the magnitude. With a heavier person the aero drag doesn't increase as much as the weight does, hence a heavier person can descent normally faster. Read Newton's second law.
>
> Lou

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:32:34 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:20:46 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:12:36 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:20:13 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > >> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> > > > > >>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> > > > > >>>>
> > > > > >>>> Personal Records
> > > > > >>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> > > > > >>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> > > > > >>> for sure!
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> > > > > >>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> > > > > >>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> > > > > >>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> > > > > >>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> > > > > >>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> > > > > >> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> > > > > >> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> > > > > >> Brighton for fish and chips!
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> > > > > >>>> Lifetime Totals
> > > > > >>>> Activities
> > > > > >>>> Activities 640
> > > > > >>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> > > > > >>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> > > > > >>>> Calories 903,642
> > > > > >>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> > > > > >>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> > > > > >>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> > > > > >>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> > > > > >>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> > > > > >>> it up with him.
> > > > > >>>
> > > > > >> Roger Merriman
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> > > > > > Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> > > > > > bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> > > > > > Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> > > > > Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> > > > > gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> > > > > normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> > > > > > that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> > > > > >
> > > > > He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> > > > > is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> > > > > very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> > > > > and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> > > > > the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> > > > > in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> > > > > rapid at times though!
> > > > >
> > > > > Roger Merriman
> > > > Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> > > > It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open, have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go full out down an 11 or 12
> > > >
> > > > 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11% downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> > > >
> > > > How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> > > > Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> > > Nope a pro cyclist doesn’t TYPICALLY descent at 100 km/hr. Typically I would say between hairpins 70-85 km/hr. Even for a pro cyclists for 100 km/hr the circumstances should be right, they do but not typically.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Fastest Recorded Speed: 63.1 mph
> > The fastest recorded speed of the Tour de France came from German Nils Politt while descending Col de Vars during stage 18 of the race. This was the second of four climbs in the stage, and Politt was the first-ever rider to break the 100 km/hr barrier by traveling at a speed of 101.5 km.hr on this descent.
> >
> > And this was recorded with a speed gun and one place. Others that could have been faster were not actually measured and MANY riders decend faster than this German rider.
> Geezz, I'm not arguing that pro riders can descent at 100+ km/hr if the circumstances are right they just don't do that typically. I climbed the Col de Vars btw in both directions. The downhill towards Guillestre has long straight stretches. I can't remember that it was that steep. The downhill towards Barcelonette has steeper section but more hairpins.
>
> Lou

On 12/31/2023 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>>
>> And yes weight does matter, some of my ride companions are light folks, ie
>> 50/60kg women and it’s fairly obvious that on even fairly gentle rolling
>> stuff, that I’ll pull away freewheeling, I’m 95kg give or take unless they
>> pedal to keep up, on longer bigger hills the gap gets bigger.
>>
>> on the larger Welsh hills the gap is over beyond seconds into minutes these
>> are much fitter and competitive folks, for example they probably didn’t
>> need to brake but I will scrub some as I don’t like blind corners at speed.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
> Roger, the force of gravity operates exactly the same on ALL bodies. That is 6th grade physics. The different is entirely aerodynamic drag, and rolling resistance.

Wow. This ignorance astonishes me!

Tom, you need to do some simple test that's not in a vacuum (which was
what was described in 6th grade science class). Try something simple
where both weight and aero drag matter, as they do in bicycling.

Here's one: Blow up two identical balloons to the same diameter. Drop
them side by side. If they are truly identical, they will fall at the
same terminal speed.

Now tie some weight, maybe 15 grams worth, onto one of the balloons.
Drop them side by side. The heavier one will fall faster. If you want, I
can go into the mathematics, but that demo should suffice.

The same principle applies to bikes coasting downhill. I thought
everyone understood that.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 12/31/2023 3:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.

Bullshit. Tell us the name of the road and it's exact location. Let us
see its characteristics for ourselves.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:20:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>How fast do pro cyclists descend?
>Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.

You're not a pro cyclist and never have been a pro cyclist.

While you using Strava, you were in the habit of occasionally driving
away in your car with the data logger running. When I mentioned how
to fix the data several times, you did nothing. I also mentioned that
you consistently failed to mention which bicycle you were riding from
your extensive stable of machines. I suspected that you didn't
recalibrate your sensors when you changed bicycles but I can't prove
it.

You've probably never timed yourself on downhill rides or segments
because such rides never appeared on your Strava page for the short
time that your rides were available for public inspection. Most of
the pros display their rides on Strava, but not Tom. Why not?

You're 53 years older than pro riders at their peak (about 26 years),
yet you claim to be able to ride as fast as a pro rider. I don't
believe you:
"Age of peak performance in professional road cycling"
<https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37139786/>
You also claim to be disabled:
01/06/2023
<https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/K-cG5lehtd0/m/X3FtbYbXAAAJ>
"I am permanently disabled and so is the cop who managed to get me
back from the last step from death."

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 16:31:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

>On Sat, 30 Dec 2023 16:20:11 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
><cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>How fast do pro cyclists descend?
>>Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
>
>You're not a pro cyclist and never have been a pro cyclist.
>
>While you using Strava, you were in the habit of occasionally driving
>away in your car with the data logger running. When I mentioned how
>to fix the data several times, you did nothing. I also mentioned that
>you consistently failed to mention which bicycle you were riding from
>your extensive stable of machines. I suspected that you didn't
>recalibrate your sensors when you changed bicycles but I can't prove
>it.
>
>You've probably never timed yourself on downhill rides or segments
>because such rides never appeared on your Strava page for the short
>time that your rides were available for public inspection. Most of
>the pros display their rides on Strava, but not Tom. Why not?
>
>You're 53 years older than pro riders at their peak (about 26 years),
>yet you claim to be able to ride as fast as a pro rider. I don't
>believe you:
>"Age of peak performance in professional road cycling"
><https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37139786/>
>You also claim to be disabled:
>01/06/2023
><https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/K-cG5lehtd0/m/X3FtbYbXAAAJ>
>"I am permanently disabled and so is the cop who managed to get me
>back from the last step from death."

That seems a bit confusing - permanently disabled and riding a
bicycle?

But perhaps he meant "mentally disabled". That does make sense and the
statement is demonstrated daily. Right here on RBT. All you have to do
is read his posts.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 7:20:13 PM UTC-5, Tom Kunich wrote:
>
> On the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11% downhills.. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.

sooooo.....wait: tommy is conflating how he coasted at 70 MPH down hill in a 5000 pound SUV with his ability to coast downhill at 65 on his bike?

>
> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.

Just for everyone's understanding, the above snippet wasn't written by tom. He copy/pasted it from here:
https://routeonecycling.com/how-fast-can-a-bicycle-go-downhill-top-speeds-for-pro-cyclists-and-the-average-rider/#How_fast_do_pro_cyclists_descend

It's very poor form to copy/paste without attibution tommy, very poor indeed. I wonder what a certain failed writer would say about that?

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 6:37:04 PM UTC-5, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 12/31/2023 3:28 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>
> >> And yes weight does matter, some of my ride companions are light folks, ie
> >> 50/60kg women and it’s fairly obvious that on even fairly gentle rolling
> >> stuff, that I’ll pull away freewheeling, I’m 95kg give or take unless they
> >> pedal to keep up, on longer bigger hills the gap gets bigger.
> >>
> >> on the larger Welsh hills the gap is over beyond seconds into minutes these
> >> are much fitter and competitive folks, for example they probably didn’t
> >> need to brake but I will scrub some as I don’t like blind corners at speed.
> >>
> >> Roger Merriman
> > Roger, the force of gravity operates exactly the same on ALL bodies. That is 6th grade physics. The different is entirely aerodynamic drag, and rolling resistance.
> Wow. This ignorance astonishes me!

not me.

>
> Tom, you need to do some simple test that's not in a vacuum (which was
> what was described in 6th grade science class). Try something simple
> where both weight and aero drag matter, as they do in bicycling.
>
> Here's one: Blow up two identical balloons to the same diameter. Drop
> them side by side. If they are truly identical, they will fall at the
> same terminal speed.
>
> Now tie some weight, maybe 15 grams worth, onto one of the balloons.
> Drop them side by side. The heavier one will fall faster. If you want, I
> can go into the mathematics, but that demo should suffice.
>
> The same principle applies to bikes coasting downhill. I thought
> everyone understood that.
>
> --
> - Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 18:39:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/31/2023 3:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.
>
>Bullshit. Tell us the name of the road and it's exact location. Let us
>see its characteristics for ourselves.

There's significant irony in Krygowski questioning the validity of
other people's anecdotes.

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 3:55:43 PM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:
> On 12/31/2023 2:37 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:28:13 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:30:04 AM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>> Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> >>>>>>>>>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Personal Records
> >>>>>>>>>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> >>>>>>>>>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> >>>>>>>>>> for sure!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> >>>>>>>>>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> >>>>>>>>>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> >>>>>>>>>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> >>>>>>>>>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> >>>>>>>>>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> >>>>>>>>> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> >>>>>>>>> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> >>>>>>>>> Brighton for fish and chips!
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> >>>>>>>>>>> Lifetime Totals
> >>>>>>>>>>> Activities
> >>>>>>>>>>> Activities 640
> >>>>>>>>>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> >>>>>>>>>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> >>>>>>>>>>> Calories 903,642
> >>>>>>>>>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> >>>>>>>>>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> >>>>>>>>>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> >>>>>>>>>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> >>>>>>>>>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> >>>>>>>>>> it up with him.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> >>>>>>>> Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> >>>>>>>> bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> >>>>>>>> Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> >>>>>>> Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> >>>>>>> gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> >>>>>>> normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> >>>>>>>> that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> >>>>>>> is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> >>>>>>> very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> >>>>>>> and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> >>>>>>> the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> >>>>>>> in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> >>>>>>> rapid at times though!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed
> >>>>>> until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep
> >>>>>> up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still
> >>>>>> moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> >>>>>> It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast
> >>>>>> majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there
> >>>>>> is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open,
> >>>>>> have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane
> >>>>>> and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like
> >>>>>> this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with
> >>>>>> these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go
> >>>>>> full out down an 11 or 12
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn
> >>>>>> is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would
> >>>>>> have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was
> >>>>>> another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you
> >>>>>> had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from
> >>>>>> the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped
> >>>>>> taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH
> >>>>>> even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so
> >>>>>> hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There
> >>>>>> is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he
> >>>>>> was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week.. On
> >>>>>> the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my
> >>>>>> SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed
> >>>>>> to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have
> >>>>>> to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11%
> >>>>>> downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I
> >>>>>> hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the
> >>>>>> Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO
> >>>>>> speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would
> >>>>>> record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> Again if something is too good to be true or doesn’t pass the sanity test.
> >>>>> Even if the hill was an average of 11% rather than peak, grade you’d need
> >>>>> to be 300lb which seems unlikely considering your preference for light
> >>>>> bikes. One of my club mates who by his own admission has a darts player
> >>>>> physique and height ie 6”3/4 isn’t heavy enough at the 200lb you’d need to
> >>>>> be pushing out significant amounts of power, around 1000 watts to reach
> >>>>> 65mph, this isn’t believable.
> >>>>>> How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> >>>>>> Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The
> >>>>>> average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is
> >>>>>> on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only
> >>>>>> have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also
> >>>>>> understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of
> >>>>>> the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an
> >>>>>> aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> They do not typically descend at 60mph tv cameras will follow the Tom
> >>>>> Pidcock and so on as it’s good tv, but they are outliers the main bunch are
> >>>>> more 30/40mph when ever I’ve bothered to check folks Strava or simply
> >>>>> watch.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Apparently the sprinters do descend fast, as generally they are better bike
> >>>>> handlers and it’s free speed/time. Though tv cameras have long gone.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Roger Merriman
> >>>> In the first place the peak is at least 12%, in the second, place weight
> >>>> has nothing to do with it. it is purely aerodynamics and at an average of
> >>>> 11% not much of that.
> >>>>
> >>> To have any chance need the grade to be consistent high not just peaks,
> >>> even then would need substantial amounts of power, or weight.
> >>>
> >>> And yes weight does matter, some of my ride companions are light folks, ie
> >>> 50/60kg women and it’s fairly obvious that on even fairly gentle rolling
> >>> stuff, that I’ll pull away freewheeling, I’m 95kg give or take unless they
> >>> pedal to keep up, on longer bigger hills the gap gets bigger.
> >>>
> >>> on the larger Welsh hills the gap is over beyond seconds into minutes these
> >>> are much fitter and competitive folks, for example they probably didn’t
> >>> need to brake but I will scrub some as I don’t like blind corners at speed.
> >>>
> >>> Roger Merriman
> >> Roger, the force of gravity operates exactly the same on ALL bodies. That is 6th grade physics. The different is entirely aerodynamic drag, and rolling resistance.
> >
> > But not the magnitude. With a heavier person the aero drag doesn't increase as much as the weight does, hence a heavier person can descent normally faster. Read Newton's second law.
> >
> > Lou
> +1
> Variance of tire resistance and frontal area are smaller
> than variance of mass in the real (not vacuum) world.
> -- .

On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 7:41:34 AM UTC-5, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 18:39:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 12/31/2023 3:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.
> >
> >Bullshit. Tell us the name of the road and it's exact location. Let us
> >see its characteristics for ourselves.
> There's significant irony in Krygowski questioning the validity of
> other people's anecdotes.

Not nearly as much as you doing exactly the same thing.

On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 4:41:34 AM UTC-8, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 18:39:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 12/31/2023 3:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> >> I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.
> >
> >Bullshit. Tell us the name of the road and it's exact location. Let us
> >see its characteristics for ourselves.
> There's significant irony in Krygowski questioning the validity of
> other people's anecdotes.

Krygowski questions others on speed when he rides a steel rouring bike that has bar end shifters and a freewheel. His ointellect is a joke.80% of graduate engineers cannot obtain a position in ANY sort of engineering and teachers like Frank are the reason,.

On 1/1/2024 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 18:39:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/31/2023 3:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>> I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.
>>>
>>> Bullshit. Tell us the name of the road and it's exact location. Let us
>>> see its characteristics for ourselves.
>
> Krygowski questions others on speed when he rides a steel rouring bike that has bar end shifters and a freewheel. His ointellect is a joke.80% of graduate engineers cannot obtain a position in ANY sort of engineering and teachers like Frank are the reason,.

Your mistaken insults of my bikes are totally irrelevant deflections. If
your claims of super fast downhill speeds were true, you could silence
your many critics immediately by giving us the name and location of the
road.

You're not doing that because you know you'd look even more foolish.

BUT! You somehow forgot to blame Obama, Biden and Newsom for reducing
the force of gravity! Tom, you're slipping!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 11:18:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/1/2024 10:57 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>> On Sun, 31 Dec 2023 18:39:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/31/2023 3:55 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>> I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.
>>>>
>>>> Bullshit. Tell us the name of the road and it's exact location. Let us
>>>> see its characteristics for ourselves.
>>
>> Krygowski questions others on speed when he rides a steel rouring bike that has bar end shifters and a freewheel. His ointellect is a joke.80% of graduate engineers cannot obtain a position in ANY sort of engineering and teachers like Frank are the reason,.
>
>Your mistaken insults of my bikes are totally irrelevant deflections. If
>your claims of super fast downhill speeds were true, you could silence
>your many critics immediately by giving us the name and location of the
>road.
>
>You're not doing that because you know you'd look even more foolish.
>
>BUT! You somehow forgot to blame Obama, Biden and Newsom for reducing
>the force of gravity! Tom, you're slipping!

Krygowski's well known "friend," he refuses to name.

"I worked with the guy. He used his solid model
animations of the gun mechanism to explain it to me while he was
designing it. The patent didn't involve that mechanism; it involved
other components and their innovative manufacturing. But the gun is
almost entirely his design."

FRank Krygowski

https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/Zu_BtGgv8Fs/m/tk2Zbzx1BgAJ

On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:55:52 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:32:34 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:20:46 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:12:36 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:20:13 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > > >> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> > > > > > >>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > >>>> Personal Records
> > > > > > >>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> > > > > > >>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> > > > > > >>> for sure!
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> > > > > > >>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> > > > > > >>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> > > > > > >>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> > > > > > >>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> > > > > > >>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> > > > > > >> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> > > > > > >> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> > > > > > >> Brighton for fish and chips!
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> > > > > > >>>> Lifetime Totals
> > > > > > >>>> Activities
> > > > > > >>>> Activities 640
> > > > > > >>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> > > > > > >>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> > > > > > >>>> Calories 903,642
> > > > > > >>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> > > > > > >>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> > > > > > >>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> > > > > > >>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> > > > > > >>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> > > > > > >>> it up with him.
> > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > >> Roger Merriman
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> > > > > > > Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> > > > > > > bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> > > > > > > Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> > > > > > Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> > > > > > gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> > > > > > normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> > > > > > > that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> > > > > > is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> > > > > > very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> > > > > > and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> > > > > > the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> > > > > > in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> > > > > > rapid at times though!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Roger Merriman
> > > > > Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> > > > > It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open, have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go full out down an 11 or 12
> > > > >
> > > > > 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11% downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> > > > >
> > > > > How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> > > > > Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> > > > Nope a pro cyclist doesn’t TYPICALLY descent at 100 km/hr. Typically I would say between hairpins 70-85 km/hr. Even for a pro cyclists for 100 km/hr the circumstances should be right, they do but not typically..
> > > >
> > > > Lou
> > > Fastest Recorded Speed: 63.1 mph
> > > The fastest recorded speed of the Tour de France came from German Nils Politt while descending Col de Vars during stage 18 of the race. This was the second of four climbs in the stage, and Politt was the first-ever rider to break the 100 km/hr barrier by traveling at a speed of 101.5 km.hr on this descent.
> > >
> > > And this was recorded with a speed gun and one place. Others that could have been faster were not actually measured and MANY riders decend faster than this German rider.
> > Geezz, I'm not arguing that pro riders can descent at 100+ km/hr if the circumstances are right they just don't do that typically. I climbed the Col de Vars btw in both directions. The downhill towards Guillestre has long straight stretches. I can't remember that it was that steep. The downhill towards Barcelonette has steeper section but more hairpins.
> >
> > Lou
> Lou, never saids that they do it all of the time,l but they do it common enough that it is plqin that they aren't afraid of it. If you think tht Eddy Merckx didn't drop like a stgone, never touching the brakes and tucked in tightetr than most modern riders you had better look more closely. The crap that there is ANY limit to thge decendind speed of a cyclist is unknown. I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.

On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 12:57:27 PM UTC-5, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>
> Krygowski's well known "friend," he refuses to name.
>
He's under no obligation to relate any information to you, even if he did you accuse him of bragging

Frank: I worked with a guy that did this-and-that
dumbass: that's a lie
Frank: his name was So and So
dumbass: you're just bragging

Floriduh dumbass, making the dumbshine state proud.

On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 1:13:46 PM UTC-5, Lou Holtman wrote:
> On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:55:52 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 12:32:34 PM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 9:20:46 PM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 7:12:36 AM UTC-8, Lou Holtman wrote:
> > > > > On Sunday, December 31, 2023 at 1:20:13 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > On Saturday, December 30, 2023 at 3:05:43 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > > > Tom Kunich <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > On Friday, December 29, 2023 at 2:06:19 PM UTC-8, Roger Merriman wrote:
> > > > > > > >> Zen Cycle <funkm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >>> On 12/29/2023 3:07 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> By the way, since 2012 I have had to be properly treated for my
> > > > > > > >>>> concussion, had to have the medication balanced and learn to ride all over again.
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Since I got my Garmin just three years ago here is what I have done:
> > > > > > > >>>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Personal Records
> > > > > > > >>>> Cycling 40 km 26:24 2022
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> My, that works out to about 56 MPH, that _is_ impressive tommy! Why
> > > > > > > >>> haven't you entered the masters world championships? You'd take the gold
> > > > > > > >>> for sure!
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Total Ascent 4,826 ft 2019
> > > > > > > >>>> Max Avg Power (20 min)298 W 2019
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> And to think you managed to have the garmin generate this data without a
> > > > > > > >>> power meter! BTW, If the 40K record of 26 minutes is correct, that would
> > > > > > > >>> translate to a sustained power output of just under 4000 watts for that
> > > > > > > >>> 24 minutes (yes, 4000 watts). A 20 minute effort at 298 watts puts you
> > > > > > > >>> at 22 MPH. Which are we to believe?
> > > > > > > >> Indeed my fastest 40k at least according to Garmin was at least a hr longer
> > > > > > > >> if not more admittedly Gravel ride though fairly fast stuff on way to
> > > > > > > >> Brighton for fish and chips!
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Longest Ride 72.43 mi 2021
> > > > > > > >>>> Lifetime Totals
> > > > > > > >>>> Activities
> > > > > > > >>>> Activities 640
> > > > > > > >>>> Distance 15,850.50 mi
> > > > > > > >>>> Time 2080:40:35 hrs
> > > > > > > >>>> Calories 903,642
> > > > > > > >>>> Total Ascent 608,397 ft
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> If I was retired and lived in an area where it never snowed, I'm pretty
> > > > > > > >>> sure I'd be blowing that out of the water.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>>> Your talking about competence is pretty silly
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Well, I'm not the one who can't find the right gear with a straight
> > > > > > > >>> block, can't figure out how to keep carbon fiber bars tight, can't
> > > > > > > >>> figure out how to get get a chain to not "drag at the extremes" and run
> > > > > > > >>> quietly, "So Many Problems!" - Frank Krygowski
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >>> Brent Steelman made a great unicrown fork. IF you don't believe me, take
> > > > > > > >>> it up with him.
> > > > > > > >>>
> > > > > > > >> Roger Merriman
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you suppose that Garmin is lying to you to make yiou feel slow?
> > > > > > > > Remember Lou's claim that it was impossible to fall off a cliff on a
> > > > > > > > bicycle and go 65 mph and as proof of that he showed a video of Tom
> > > > > > > > Pidcock or someone descending a mild grade and still hitting 55?
> > > > > > > Hardly as my Gravel is largely MTB lite I’m not hooning along at 20mph on
> > > > > > > gravel roads around Kanas say, so a 14mph average isn’t to be sniffed at
> > > > > > > normally average 11mph on mixed though largely off road surfaces.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Now I don't want to insult Lou, but someone that comes from a country
> > > > > > > > that averages 2 meters below sea level should not be talking abput descending speeds.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > He unless my memory mistakes me regularly gets to the Alps and similar, ie
> > > > > > > is an experience descender. And reaching 65mph as was pointed out before is
> > > > > > > very much a outlier you need combo of right hill, with the skill/bravery
> > > > > > > and power to reach it, only have to look at SAFA Brian’s videos he’s using
> > > > > > > the entire road even with his skill set and performance.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Some of the pros do publish to Strava etc, and most are 30/40 something ie
> > > > > > > in realms of normal, I’m told the sprinters chasing the time cut are fairly
> > > > > > > rapid at times though!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Roger Merriman
> > > > > > Since most of my rides at least start in the city my average moving speed until very recently had been 11.5 mph. Lately since I am trying to keep up with my climbing, it is closer to 10 mph. Back in 2019 I was still moving pretty fast but now I don't know if age or winter weight is slowing me down.
> > > > > > It is very difficult for me to take off weight without hills and the vast majority of hill roads were destroyed by last winter's rains. And there is no appearqnce that they are going to repair them. Those that are open, have pretty long stretches of one way traffic confined to a single lane and traffic moving at up to 50 mph Would you like to meet someone like this going the other way on a single lane road? I have taken chances with these roads but it makes me nervous as hell now. At one tikme I would go full out down an 11 or 12
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 5 grade and around a 40 degree turn and stayi n my lane since that turn is blind. Then there was a driveway that used to be used so you would have to beware of that and then one mile further down the road was another driveway that cars would pull out of without even looking so you had to beware of that. At that point you were going to fast to stop from the time you saw them until you went through them. So I'vbe stopped taking chances there. This is where Lou doesn't beliece you can go 65 MPH even though the road is straight and any cars behind you are dropped so hard that it takes them a mile past the last driveway to catch up. There is a winery up there that just closed and the owner called me to say he was saving some wine for me. So I drove up there earlier this week. On the way back I simply coasted from where the road straightened out (in my SUV) and I coasted at 70 mph all the way down to where the road changed to one lane. And that was with the transmission in Drive. So you'll have to forgive me if I call bullshit on not coasting at 65 mph on 11% downhills. Remember that I didn't say that I maintained that but that I hit it. And inasmuch as I can't trust all of the numbers out of the Garmin, I saw these speeds on this section using a German VTO speedometer.in the mid 2010's before I started using Garmin. It would record Speed, Top Speed and Distance.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > How fast do pro cyclists descend?
> > > > > > Pro cyclists typically descend at 60 miles per hour (100 kph). The average top speed of leaders can be higher than 65mph (105kph). This is on sustained downhill and after years of experience where they not only have the instincts and stamina to maintain that speed; but also understand how to enter hairpin turns to successfully accelerate out of the turns. The other skill that is important is to maintain an aerodynamic posture while in the drops of your handles to fight off wind resistance.
> > > > > Nope a pro cyclist doesn’t TYPICALLY descent at 100 km/hr.. Typically I would say between hairpins 70-85 km/hr. Even for a pro cyclists for 100 km/hr the circumstances should be right, they do but not typically.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lou
> > > > Fastest Recorded Speed: 63.1 mph
> > > > The fastest recorded speed of the Tour de France came from German Nils Politt while descending Col de Vars during stage 18 of the race. This was the second of four climbs in the stage, and Politt was the first-ever rider to break the 100 km/hr barrier by traveling at a speed of 101.5 km.hr on this descent.
> > > >
> > > > And this was recorded with a speed gun and one place. Others that could have been faster were not actually measured and MANY riders decend faster than this German rider.
> > > Geezz, I'm not arguing that pro riders can descent at 100+ km/hr if the circumstances are right they just don't do that typically. I climbed the Col de Vars btw in both directions. The downhill towards Guillestre has long straight stretches. I can't remember that it was that steep. The downhill towards Barcelonette has steeper section but more hairpins.
> > >
> > > Lou
> > Lou, never saids that they do it all of the time,l but they do it common enough that it is plqin that they aren't afraid of it. If you think tht Eddy Merckx didn't drop like a stgone, never touching the brakes and tucked in tightetr than most modern riders you had better look more closely. The crap that there is ANY limit to thge decendind speed of a cyclist is unknown.. I know that I hit 65 and I dropped cars in the process.
> You only have to mention the road of that descent where you supposed you hit 65 mph (= 104 km/hr) and we can do the fact checking for you. Until then I don't believe you hitting a speed at 75 plus years of age pro cyclists only hit on special descents with no traffic to consider. Just mention the road I will do the rest. Should be easy.
>
> Lou

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On Mon, 1 Jan 2024 10:31:53 -0800 (PST), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, January 1, 2024 at 12:57:27?PM UTC-5, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>
>> Krygowski's well known "friend," he refuses to name.
>>
> He's under no obligation to relate any information to you,

....and neither is Mr Kinich.