Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68

Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>
> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>
> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)

We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his inhaler
(albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years. Went to a
hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a full exam
before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me
that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured them that it
was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would reimburse me for
whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours being examined,
including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill was around €120. In
the U.S., an ER visit like that, without insurance, would easily be over
$1000. I never bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more
trouble than it was worth.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 1/8/2024 9:43 AM, sms wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I
>> was there I
>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis
>> -, "Dry Eyes
>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months,
>> drops and a
>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>
>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a
>> Government
>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>
> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought
> his inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed
> it for years. Went to a hospital in Melk to get a
> prescription. They insisted on a full exam before writing a
> prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me that my
> U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured them that
> it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would reimburse
> me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator,
> the bill was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like
> that, without insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never
> bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble
> than it was worth.
>

That's the choice of Austrians. Like EU generally, no
functional military and yet taxes are 43% of GDP:

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-austria.pdf

Some may see that as positive. I do not.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Am 08.01.2024 um 17:01 schrieb AMuzi:
> On 1/8/2024 9:43 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>
>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>
>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his inhaler
>> (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years. Went to
>> a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a full exam
>> before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me
>> that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured them that
>> it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would reimburse me for
>> whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours being examined,
>> including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill was around €120.
>> In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without insurance, would easily be
>> over $1000. I never bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more
>> trouble than it was worth.
>>
>
> That's the choice of Austrians. Like EU generally, no functional
> military and yet taxes are 43% of GDP:
>
> https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-austria.pdf

It all depends on how much you count 'Social security contributions'
like health-care as part of 'taxes' or as part of 'private insurance'.

On the assumption that every sensible person takes out relevant
insurance (like health, unemployment and diability pension), the money
in my bank account on the second of a month is the same whether my
employer pays it to the insurance/government or my employer pays it to
me and I pay it to the insurance.

> Some may see that as positive. I do not.

I prefer affordable state-run health care over private health-care
costing 10 times as much. Private health care only seem to be able to
offer attractive conditions in countries where they can skimp off
government investment in infrastructure, like in the EU.

Rolf

On 1/8/2024 8:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:

<snip>

> That's the choice of Austrians. Like EU generally, no functional
> military and yet taxes are 43% of GDP:
>
> https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-austria.pdf
>
> Some may see that as positive. I do not.

What do you think that the actual tax burden is in the U.S. when you
factor in Federal income tax, state income tax, property tax, sales tax,
capital gains tax, parcel taxes, bond measure payments, Social Security
taxes, state disability taxes, transient occupancy taxes, real estate
transfer taxes, gasoline taxes, and Medicare taxes? And in some cities
there are City Income Taxes as well.

All those taxes and the infrastructure still is poor, and you still need
private medical insurance if you're not on Medicare.

It was really amusing when people were interviewed about the ACA. Many
loved the provisions in the ACA, but they were against Obamacare.
One-third of Americans don't even know that Obamacare and the Affordable
Care Act are the same thing.

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On 1/8/2024 10:37 AM, sms wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 8:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> That's the choice of Austrians. Like EU generally, no
>> functional military and yet taxes are 43% of GDP:
>>
>> https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-austria.pdf
>>
>> Some may see that as positive. I do not.
>
> What do you think that the actual tax burden is in the U.S.
> when you factor in Federal income tax, state income tax,
> property tax, sales tax, capital gains tax, parcel taxes,
> bond measure payments, Social Security taxes, state
> disability taxes, transient occupancy taxes, real estate
> transfer taxes, gasoline taxes, and Medicare taxes? And in
> some cities there are City Income Taxes as well.
>
> All those taxes and the infrastructure still is poor, and
> you still need private medical insurance if you're not on
> Medicare.
>
> It was really amusing when people were interviewed about the
> ACA. Many loved the provisions in the ACA, but they were
> against Obamacare. One-third of Americans don't even know
> that Obamacare and the Affordable Care Act are the same thing.
>

On that we can agree.

Your average USAian is neither very well informed nor very
bright, analytically speaking as they have no background nor
memory. I laughed out loud the first time I saw a protest
placard, 'Government hands off my Social Security'. We're
beyond parody here!

Not that our situation is particularly good regarding
liberty and property rights, but better than EU at least.
States take from 4.6% to 15.9% of GDP:

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/

Federal take from the productive economy is past 20% now,
18.5% at end* of 2022.

https://www.ceicdata.com/en/indicator/united-states/tax-revenue--of-gdp

The chart on that page shows an historical and dangerous level.

* Calendar year, not US fiscal year

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>
>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>
>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>
> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his inhaler
> (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years. Went to a
> hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a full exam
> before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me
> that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured them that it
> was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would reimburse me for
> whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours being examined,
> including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill was around €120. In
> the U.S., an ER visit like that, without insurance, would easily be over
> $1000. I never bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more
> trouble than it was worth.

We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it may
even have been Melk.

I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it to
my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We need
the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."

So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it was
worth. The bill was only about $100.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while
>>> I was there I
>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full
>>> check,
>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis
>>> -, "Dry Eyes
>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months,
>>> drops and a
>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>
>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a
>>> Government
>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>
>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought
>> his inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't
>> needed it for years. Went to a hospital in Melk to get a
>> prescription. They insisted on a full exam before writing
>> a prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me
>> that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser
>> would reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After
>> about two hours being examined, including a doctor and a
>> nurse/translator, the bill was around €120. In the U.S.,
>> an ER visit like that, without insurance, would easily be
>> over $1000. I never bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser,
>> it was more trouble than it was worth.
>
> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria,
> and it may even have been Melk.
>
> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did
> submit it to my insurance company. Their response was "This
> isn't in English. We need the paperwork in English or we
> won't cover it."
>
> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble
> than it was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>

Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/8/2024 11:01 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 9:43 AM, sms wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>
>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>
>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>
>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his inhaler
>> (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years. Went to
>> a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a full exam
>> before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me
>> that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured them that
>> it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would reimburse me for
>> whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours being examined,
>> including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill was around €120.
>> In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without insurance, would easily be
>> over $1000. I never bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more
>> trouble than it was worth.
>>
>
> That's the choice of Austrians. Like EU generally, no functional
> military and yet taxes are 43% of GDP:
>
> https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-austria.pdf
>
> Some may see that as positive. I do not.

In general, Europeans are much more satisfied with their system than
Americans are with ours. And Europeans tend to experience other
collateral benefits, such as fewer social problems and much less crime.
Some of that is probably due to less desperation among the poor.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>
>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>
>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>
>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>> may even have been Melk.
>>
>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>
>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>
>
> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.

Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
lower costs and much better results.

There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 12:32:00 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>
>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>
>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>
>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>
>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>
>>
>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>
>Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>lower costs and much better results.
>
>There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.

For many USAians, collectivism is only for family.

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 17:24:37 +0100, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de>
wrote:

>Am 08.01.2024 um 17:01 schrieb AMuzi:
>> On 1/8/2024 9:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>
>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>
>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his inhaler
>>> (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years. Went to
>>> a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a full exam
>>> before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They warned me
>>> that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured them that
>>> it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would reimburse me for
>>> whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours being examined,
>>> including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill was around €120.
>>> In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without insurance, would easily be
>>> over $1000. I never bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more
>>> trouble than it was worth.
>>>
>>
>> That's the choice of Austrians. Like EU generally, no functional
>> military and yet taxes are 43% of GDP:
>>
>> https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-austria.pdf
>
>It all depends on how much you count 'Social security contributions'
>like health-care as part of 'taxes' or as part of 'private insurance'.
>
>On the assumption that every sensible person takes out relevant
>insurance (like health, unemployment and diability pension), the money
>in my bank account on the second of a month is the same whether my
>employer pays it to the insurance/government or my employer pays it to
>me and I pay it to the insurance.
>
>> Some may see that as positive. I do not.
>
>I prefer affordable state-run health care over private health-care
>costing 10 times as much. Private health care only seem to be able to
>offer attractive conditions in countries where they can skimp off
>government investment in infrastructure, like in the EU.
>
>Rolf

Here we have "government hospitals" the cost of which to the patent
(citizen) is 30 baht per visit (about U.S. 86 cents) and whatever the
doctor prescribes is no added cost. My Housekeeper as a 7 year old son
and she told me that it cost her about 200 baht for the monthly visits
to the doctor and the birth and a 2 day(I think) stay in the hospital.
that's less then one day's pay at minimum salary.

Foreigners usually go to the Private Hospitals and pay an elevated
price for doing so. The Private Hospitals are, of course, not so
crowded with patients and the doctors and many of the nurses will
speak English while in the government hospitals there are heaps of
patients and the staff may speak only Thai.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>
>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for
>>>> years. Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They
>>>> insisted on a full exam before writing a prescription, including
>>>> chest x-rays. They warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be
>>>> accepted but I assured them that it was no issue that when we got
>>>> home Kaiser would reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care.
>>>> After about two hours being examined, including a doctor and a
>>>> nurse/translator, the bill was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit
>>>> like that, without insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never
>>>> bothered to submit the bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it
>>>> was worth.
>>>
>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>
>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English.
>>> We need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>
>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>
>>
>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>
> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
> lower costs and much better results.
>
> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>

+1
--
Add xx to reply

On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

<snip>

>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>
>
> +1

"Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories with- publicly
funded health care (Mean (m) = 76.7 years) was significantly longer
compared to countries and territories without- publicly funded health
care (m = 66.8 years, P < 0.0001)."

<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>

--
“If you are not an expert on a subject, then your opinions about it
really do matter less than the opinions of experts. It's not
indoctrination nor elitism. It's just that you don't know as much as
they do about the subject.”—Tin Foil Awards

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>>
>>
>> +1
>
>"Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories with- publicly
>funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was significantly longer
>compared to countries and territories without- publicly funded health
>care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>
><https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>

There are issues other than health care that affect live expectancy.

On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>>>
>>>
>>> +1
>>
>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories with- publicly
>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was significantly longer
>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly funded health
>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>
>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>
>
> There are issues other than health care that affect live expectancy.

Indeed.
To take but one example, huge piles of public money and
exceptional medical breakthroughs have if anything made no
improvement to our obesity/diet/diabetes curse:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/9/2024 9:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is
>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> +1
>>>
>>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories with- publicly
>>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was significantly longer
>>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly funded health
>>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>>
>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>>
>>
>> There are issues other than health care that affect live expectancy.
>
> Indeed.
> To take but one example, huge piles of public money and exceptional
> medical breakthroughs have if anything made no improvement to our
> obesity/diet/diabetes curse:
>
> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/

That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
system of health care.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/9/2024 9:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is
>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories with- publicly
>>>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was significantly longer
>>>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly funded health
>>>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are issues other than health care that affect live expectancy.
>>
>> Indeed.
>> To take but one example, huge piles of public money and exceptional
>> medical breakthroughs have if anything made no improvement to our
>> obesity/diet/diabetes curse:
>>
>> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/
>
>That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>system of health care.

I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
I've never had ANY problems with my health care.

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>
>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>
>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>
>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>
>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>
>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>
>>
>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>
> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
> lower costs and much better results.
>
> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>
My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
over many months.

Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.

And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
mine was fairly smack in the middle really.

Roger Merriman

On 1/9/2024 10:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 9:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms
>>> <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of
>>>>>> health care is better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> +1
>>>>
>>>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories
>>>> with- publicly
>>>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was
>>>> significantly longer
>>>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly
>>>> funded health
>>>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>>>
>>>
>>> There are issues other than health care that affect live
>>> expectancy.
>>
>> Indeed.
>> To take but one example, huge piles of public money and
>> exceptional medical breakthroughs have if anything made no
>> improvement to our obesity/diet/diabetes curse:
>>
>> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/
>
> That's still not an argument in favor of the
> hyper-inefficient U.S. system of health care.
>

Right. Not that argument, which would be in the area of
politics, belief, etc.

I merely note that as Mr Tricycle noted, "There are issues
other than health care that affect life expectancy." and
throwing money resources and attention to a problem may not
make any difference. Or even, as with obesity/diabetes,
actually encourage deleterious behavior.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:06:53 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
wrote:

>Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>>
>>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>>
>>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>>
>>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>>
>> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>> lower costs and much better results.
>>
>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>
>My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
>job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
>and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
>over many months.
>
>Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
>stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
>it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
>the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.

Never heard of such a thing. My medical insurance renews every year.
Mybe the two year thing is with ObamaCare.

>And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
>example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
>mine was fairly smack in the middle really.
>
>Roger Merriman
>

On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 9:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories with- publicly
>>>>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was significantly longer
>>>>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly funded health
>>>>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are issues other than health care that affect live expectancy.
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>> To take but one example, huge piles of public money and exceptional
>>> medical breakthroughs have if anything made no improvement to our
>>> obesity/diet/diabetes curse:
>>>
>>> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/
>>
>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>> system of health care.
>
> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.

Resolving medical problems is often more effective by
avoiding the 'health services' racket.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:17:45 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/9/2024 10:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 1/9/2024 9:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms
>>>> <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of
>>>>>>> health care is better.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1
>>>>>
>>>>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories
>>>>> with- publicly
>>>>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was
>>>>> significantly longer
>>>>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly
>>>>> funded health
>>>>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are issues other than health care that affect live
>>>> expectancy.
>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>> To take but one example, huge piles of public money and
>>> exceptional medical breakthroughs have if anything made no
>>> improvement to our obesity/diet/diabetes curse:
>>>
>>> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/
>>
>> That's still not an argument in favor of the
>> hyper-inefficient U.S. system of health care.
>>
>
>Right. Not that argument, which would be in the area of
>politics, belief, etc.
>
>I merely note that as Mr Tricycle noted, "There are issues
>other than health care that affect life expectancy." and
>throwing money resources and attention to a problem may not
>make any difference. Or even, as with obesity/diabetes,
>actually encourage deleterious behavior.

...and some countries send their young people off to fight in wars
which must have an effect on life espectancy, and then there's gang
wars and poverty, and babies born to drug addicts.

On 1/9/2024 12:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>>
>>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>>
>>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>>
>>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>>
>> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>> lower costs and much better results.
>>
>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>
> My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
> job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
> and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
> over many months.
>
> Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
> stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
> it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
> the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.
>
> And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
> example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
> mine was fairly smack in the middle really.
>
> Roger Merriman
>
>

I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
unreasonable expectations. Our modern medical arts are very
good at setting broken bones and repairing wounds etc.
Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is well beyond their
purview.

There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
appendix and promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis.
My brother the doc has a pet peeve about that; internists
who see a lot of them are very good diagnosticians but your
average MD is more often wrong than right on an appendix.

Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
world of variables and most decisions are made under
uncertainty at best. People expect more than is actually
possible.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/9/2024 12:24 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:17:45 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 10:34 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/9/2024 9:03 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/9/2024 7:56 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 05:47:54 -0800, sms
>>>>> <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 5:16 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:32 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of
>>>>>>>> health care is better.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Overall, life expectancy in countries and territories
>>>>>> with- publicly
>>>>>> funded health care (Mean (m)?=?76.7 years) was
>>>>>> significantly longer
>>>>>> compared to countries and territories without- publicly
>>>>>> funded health
>>>>>> care (m?=?66.8 years, P?<?0.0001)."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9653205/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There are issues other than health care that affect live
>>>>> expectancy.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed.
>>>> To take but one example, huge piles of public money and
>>>> exceptional medical breakthroughs have if anything made no
>>>> improvement to our obesity/diet/diabetes curse:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/blood-sugar-rising/
>>>
>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the
>>> hyper-inefficient U.S. system of health care.
>>>
>>
>> Right. Not that argument, which would be in the area of
>> politics, belief, etc.
>>
>> I merely note that as Mr Tricycle noted, "There are issues
>> other than health care that affect life expectancy." and
>> throwing money resources and attention to a problem may not
>> make any difference. Or even, as with obesity/diabetes,
>> actually encourage deleterious behavior.
>
>
> ..and some countries send their young people off to fight in wars
> which must have an effect on life espectancy, and then there's gang
> wars and poverty, and babies born to drug addicts.

I'll assume #7 'poison' includes ODs:
https://deadorkicking.com/death-statistics/us/2023/

Many of the most popular exit strategies (not merely
suicide) are behaviorally influenced.

--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971