On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:32:18 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/9/2024 12:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>>>
>>>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>>>
>>> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>>> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>>> lower costs and much better results.
>>>
>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>>
>> My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
>> job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
>> and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
>> over many months.
>>
>> Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
>> stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
>> it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
>> the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.
>>
>> And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
>> example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
>> mine was fairly smack in the middle really.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
>I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
>unreasonable expectations. Our modern medical arts are very
>good at setting broken bones and repairing wounds etc.
>Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is well beyond their
>purview.
>
>There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
>appendix and promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis.
>My brother the doc has a pet peeve about that; internists
>who see a lot of them are very good diagnosticians but your
>average MD is more often wrong than right on an appendix.
>
>Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
>world of variables and most decisions are made under
>uncertainty at best. People expect more than is actually
>possible.

But diagnosing appendicitis, or diagnosing in general, is basically an
educated guess.

I once helped carry a welder to the base hospital with "galvanizing
poisoning". The doctors took one look and immediately said "Severe
Appendicitis" and seemed ready to hack the guy open almost on the
spot. Meanwhile I and the welding Boss are jumping up and down and
saying, "It's galvanizing". Finally a doctor, probably to shut us up,
gets out the "Poison Book" and asks, "what's galvanizing?" We tell
him, "Zinc" and he flips a few pages, reads a bit, and says to his
mates, "Hey Guys slow down a bit here."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/9/2024 4:50 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 12:32:18 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 12:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>>>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>>>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>>>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>>>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>>>>
>>>> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>>>> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>>>> lower costs and much better results.
>>>>
>>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>>>
>>> My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
>>> job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
>>> and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
>>> over many months.
>>>
>>> Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
>>> stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
>>> it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
>>> the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.
>>>
>>> And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
>>> example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
>>> mine was fairly smack in the middle really.
>>>
>>> Roger Merriman
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
>> unreasonable expectations. Our modern medical arts are very
>> good at setting broken bones and repairing wounds etc.
>> Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is well beyond their
>> purview.
>>
>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
>> appendix and promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis.
>> My brother the doc has a pet peeve about that; internists
>> who see a lot of them are very good diagnosticians but your
>> average MD is more often wrong than right on an appendix.
>>
>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
>> world of variables and most decisions are made under
>> uncertainty at best. People expect more than is actually
>> possible.
>
> But diagnosing appendicitis, or diagnosing in general, is basically an
> educated guess.
>
> I once helped carry a welder to the base hospital with "galvanizing
> poisoning". The doctors took one look and immediately said "Severe
> Appendicitis" and seemed ready to hack the guy open almost on the
> spot. Meanwhile I and the welding Boss are jumping up and down and
> saying, "It's galvanizing". Finally a doctor, probably to shut us up,
> gets out the "Poison Book" and asks, "what's galvanizing?" We tell
> him, "Zinc" and he flips a few pages, reads a bit, and says to his
> mates, "Hey Guys slow down a bit here."

Exactly.
Miss a burst appendix and the guy dies.
Remove a good appendix (routine procedure but not without
its own risks) and you've ignored whatever the real problem
is and meanwhile it's likely not resolved itself.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Catrike Ryder <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2024 18:06:53 GMT, Roger Merriman <roger@sarlet.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>>>
>>>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>>>
>>> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>>> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>>> lower costs and much better results.
>>>
>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>>
>> My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
>> job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
>> and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
>> over many months.
>>
>> Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
>> stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
>> it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
>> the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.
>
> Never heard of such a thing. My medical insurance renews every year.
> Mybe the two year thing is with ObamaCare.

It’s decades old, long before Obama as ever with medical and sports myths
they get repeated without any evidence just asserted.
>
>> And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
>> example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
>> mine was fairly smack in the middle really.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>

Roger Merriman

AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 12:06 PM, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>> On 1/8/2024 12:21 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/8/2024 11:19 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/8/2024 10:43 AM, sms wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/8/2024 12:15 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Went to the big city to renew my resident visa and while I was there I
>>>>>>> stopped at the hospital to get my eyes checked... full check,
>>>>>>> strength, focus, pressure, visit to the doctor. Diagnosis -, "Dry Eyes
>>>>>>> due to old age". Total cost include medicine - 2 months, drops and a
>>>>>>> cream - 1,990 baht about US$ 57.68
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Note that this was at a private hospital. Had I gone to a Government
>>>>>>> Hospital, the cost would have been in the $20.00 range :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We were in Austria a few years ago. My son had not brought his
>>>>>> inhaler (albuterol) for asthma because he hadn't needed it for years.
>>>>>> Went to a hospital in Melk to get a prescription. They insisted on a
>>>>>> full exam before writing a prescription, including chest x-rays. They
>>>>>> warned me that my U.S. insurance would not be accepted but I assured
>>>>>> them that it was no issue that when we got home Kaiser would
>>>>>> reimburse me for whatever I spent on ER care. After about two hours
>>>>>> being examined, including a doctor and a nurse/translator, the bill
>>>>>> was around €120. In the U.S., an ER visit like that, without
>>>>>> insurance, would easily be over $1000. I never bothered to submit the
>>>>>> bill to Kaiser, it was more trouble than it was worth.
>>>>>
>>>>> We had exactly the same experience in 2007, also in Austria, and it
>>>>> may even have been Melk.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did ask them to mail me the relevant paperwork, and I did submit it
>>>>> to my insurance company. Their response was "This isn't in English. We
>>>>> need the paperwork in English or we won't cover it."
>>>>>
>>>>> So I dropped the issue because it was, indeed, more trouble than it
>>>>> was worth. The bill was only about $100.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thank Gaston Glock and his taxes to Austria for that.
>>>
>>> Whatever. In nation after nation, those with universal health care are
>>> much, much more satisfied than Americans. And their systems see much
>>> lower costs and much better results.
>>>
>>> There's no rational way to say the U.S. system of health care is better.
>>>
>> My wife was told by American colleagues that we’d of lost the house and my
>> job in America due to cost of the acute care let alone rehabilitation later
>> and getting months of full sick pay, even during my phased return to work
>> over many months.
>>
>> Has even led to an urban myth even over here that brain injury recovery
>> stops after 2 years as that is when American medical insurance stops. And
>> it’s a myth rehabilitation is essentially relearning how to do stuff and
>> the brain doesn’t stop learning far from it.
>>
>> And later on after folks have recovered from the physical trauma, I for
>> example was always cold and a bit fragile for a good year afterwards, and
>> mine was fairly smack in the middle really.
>>
>> Roger Merriman
>>
>>
>
> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
> unreasonable expectations. Our modern medical arts are very
> good at setting broken bones and repairing wounds etc.
> Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is well beyond their
> purview.
>
> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
> appendix and promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis.
> My brother the doc has a pet peeve about that; internists
> who see a lot of them are very good diagnosticians but your
> average MD is more often wrong than right on an appendix.
>
> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
> world of variables and most decisions are made under
> uncertainty at best. People expect more than is actually
> possible.
>
>
Medial doesn’t have magic bullet to fix all conditions, and after all
within my experience the prognosis of both acute and chronic are
essentially impossible to accurately predict. Ie it’s quite clear how
little we know.

As more folks survive brain injuries and other medical emergencies not
funding rehabilitation properly leads to folks dropping out not
functioning, and this means less wages and thus taxes paid if they can’t
hold down a job, and possibly end up in and out of courts and so on.

Ie even if it’s not a moral obligation it’s just short sighted financially
admittedly that is a common political position! Hence I’ve been to
parliament to help encourage people!

Roger Merriman

On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>> system of health care.
>>
>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>
> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
> 'health services' racket.

.... for some value of "often."

U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
services because of cost.

People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
trivially easy to find.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022

https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/health/us-health-care-spending-global-perspective/index.html

Our system imposes much higher costs and delivers much worse results.
It's obviously inefficient. Anecdotes that disagree don't change those
facts.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>
> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
> well beyond their purview.
>
> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
> appendix.
>
> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
> expect more than is actually possible.

Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
publicly funded health care.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>> system of health care.
>>>
>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>
>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>> 'health services' racket.
>
>... for some value of "often."
>
>U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>services because of cost.
>
>People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>trivially easy to find.

Easy to find...
....by looking for leftist propaganda sites... See below:

>https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022
>
>https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/health/us-health-care-spending-global-perspective/index.html
>
>Our system imposes much higher costs and delivers much worse results.
>It's obviously inefficient. Anecdotes that disagree don't change those
>facts.

On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>> well beyond their purview.
>>
>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>> appendix.
>>
>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>> expect more than is actually possible.
>
>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>publicly funded health care.

Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>
>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>> appendix.
>>>
>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>
>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>publicly funded health care.
>
>
>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.

I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.

--
Cheers,

John B.

Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>
>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>
>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>> 'health services' racket.
>>
>> ... for some value of "often."
>>
>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>> services because of cost.
>>
>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>> trivially easy to find.
>
> Easy to find...
> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...

It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
information are dodgy.

don't look up!

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>
>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>> appendix.
>>>>
>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>
>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>publicly funded health care.
>>
>>
>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>
>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.

https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:44:04 +0100, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>>
>>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>>> 'health services' racket.
>>>
>>> ... for some value of "often."
>>>
>>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>>> services because of cost.
>>>
>>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>>> trivially easy to find.
>>
>> Easy to find...
>> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...
>
>It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>information are dodgy.
>
>don't look up!

Anyone who doubts that CNN and the Commonwealth Fund are leftist
propaganda sites is a fool. The Commonwealth Fund's entire stated
reason for existance is to promote socialized medicine.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>
>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>
>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>
>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>
>>>
>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>
>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>
>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to

No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021

I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.

Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
their medicines through international biding managed by the government
and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:44:04 +0100, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>>
>>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>>> 'health services' racket.
>>>
>>> ... for some value of "often."
>>>
>>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>>> services because of cost.
>>>
>>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>>> trivially easy to find.
>>
>> Easy to find...
>> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...
>
>It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>information are dodgy.
>
>don't look up!

Well, I'm not a leftist but my Housekeeper tells me that her total
cost for 9 visits to the doctor during her pregnancy and 3 days in the
hospital giving birth cost her a total of 300 baht - at today's
exchange rate is $8.57 and less then one day's salary at minimum
salary rates :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>
>>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>
>>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>
>No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>
>I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>
>Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.

Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
countries are lower.

On 1/10/2024 6:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>>
>>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>>> 'health services' racket.
>>>
>>> ... for some value of "often."
>>>
>>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>>> services because of cost.
>>>
>>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>>> trivially easy to find.
>>
>> Easy to find...
>> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...
>
> It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
> information are dodgy.
>
> don't look up!
>

+1
--
Add xx to reply

On 1/10/2024 4:46 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>
>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>> appendix.
>>>
>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>
>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>> publicly funded health care.
>
>
> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.

So I'm guessing you never signed up for medicare?

--
Add xx to reply

On 1/10/2024 7:36 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>
>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>
>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>
>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>
>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>
>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>
> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
> countries are lower.

Floriduh dumbass was a proponent of this healthcare plan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSRo51SbQQs

--
Add xx to reply

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>
>>>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>
>>>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>
>>No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>
>>I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>
Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>
>Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>countries are lower.

The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
buying in large quantity prices do go down.

How is that "interference"?
--
Cheers,

Schweik

Am 10.01.2024 um 13:01 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:44:04 +0100, Rolf Mantel
> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>
>> Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>>>
>>>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>>>> 'health services' racket.
>>>>
>>>> ... for some value of "often."
>>>>
>>>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>>>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>>>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>>>> services because of cost.
>>>>
>>>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>>>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>>>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>>>> trivially easy to find.
>>>
>>> Easy to find...
>>> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...
>>
>> It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>> information are dodgy.
>>
>> don't look up!
>
> Anyone who doubts that CNN and the Commonwealth Fund are leftist
> propaganda sites is a fool. The Commonwealth Fund's entire stated
> reason for existance is to promote socialized medicine.

The leftist fool says "andbody who claims the right-wing-bastards from
CNN are leftist needs their head examined".

don't look up!

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>
>>>>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>
>>>>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>
>>>No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>
>>>I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>
>Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>
>>Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>countries are lower.
>
>The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>
>How is that "interference"?

Governments have coersive power.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 14:22:04 +0100, Rolf Mantel
<news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:

>Am 10.01.2024 um 13:01 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:44:04 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>
>>> Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>>>>> 'health services' racket.
>>>>>
>>>>> ... for some value of "often."
>>>>>
>>>>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>>>>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>>>>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>>>>> services because of cost.
>>>>>
>>>>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>>>>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>>>>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>>>>> trivially easy to find.
>>>>
>>>> Easy to find...
>>>> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...
>>>
>>> It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>>> information are dodgy.
>>>
>>> don't look up!
>>
>> Anyone who doubts that CNN and the Commonwealth Fund are leftist
>> propaganda sites is a fool. The Commonwealth Fund's entire stated
>> reason for existance is to promote socialized medicine.
>
>The leftist fool says "andbody who claims the right-wing-bastards from
>CNN are leftist needs their head examined".
>
>don't look up!

Most people, perhaps everybody in the USA knows what CNN is all about.
Some pay attention to CNN because of that, others, (me) just roll
their eyes. ..and yeah, I roll my eyes at some of the Fox News
programs, too.

On 1/9/2024 9:15 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the
>>>> hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>> system of health care.
>>>
>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health
>>> care. Actually,
>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>
>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by
>> avoiding the 'health services' racket.
>
> ... for some value of "often."
>
> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries
> that have publicly funded health care, which is really all
> similar countries. Perhaps part of the reason is that in the
> U.S. people avoid health services because of cost.
>
> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid
> medical treatment. They are much healthier on average than
> Americans, and they spend much less on their health care.
> Articles documenting this are trivially easy to find.
>
> https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2023/jan/us-health-care-global-perspective-2022
>
> https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/31/health/us-health-care-spending-global-perspective/index.html
>
> Our system imposes much higher costs and delivers much worse
> results. It's obviously inefficient. Anecdotes that disagree
> don't change those facts.
>

Unclear at best. Hard to balance obesity, diabetes, heart
failure, ODs and violence (at all of which we are outliers)
against medicalization of 'health'.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/9/2024 9:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>
>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
>> unreasonable expectations.  Our modern medical arts are
>> very good at setting broken bones and repairing wounds
>> etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is well beyond
>> their purview.
>>
>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
>> appendix and promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis.
>> My brother the doc has a pet peeve about that; internists
>> who see a lot of them are very good diagnosticians but
>> your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>> appendix.
>>
>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
>> world of variables and most decisions are made under
>> uncertainty at best.  People expect more than is actually
>> possible.
>
> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex
> problems are solved more accurately and far less expensively
> in nations with publicly funded health care.
>

That's unclear. Correlation is not causation and our US
culture shows decidedly unhealthy aspects for some
significant number (perhaps a majority).
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/10/2024 3:46 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>
>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>
>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>> appendix.
>>>
>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>
>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>> publicly funded health care.
>
>
> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.

+1
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971