On 1/10/2024 4:30 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:56:57 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 11:07 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> > On 1/9/2024 9:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> >> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
>>> unreasonable
>>> >>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at
>>> setting
>>> >>> broken bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and
>>> subsequent
>>> >>> degradation) is well beyond their purview.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
>>> appendix and
>>> >>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother
>>> the doc has a
>>> >>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them
>>> are very good
>>> >>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong
>>> than right on
>>> >>> an appendix.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
>>> world of
>>> >>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty
>>> at best.
>>> >>> People expect more than is actually possible.
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these
>>> complex problems
>>> >> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in
>>> nations with
>>> >> publicly funded health care.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > That's unclear.
>>>
>>> Not to those with less bias.
>>>
>>> > Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>> > decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number
>>> (perhaps a
>>> > majority).
>>>
>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in
>>> this forum. It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the
>>> available data, so I'm going to pretend there's hidden magic
>>> at work."
>>>
>>> You appear to be claiming that Americans are unique in
>>> choosing unhealthy behavior. But smoking, drinking and fatty
>>> foods are much more common in Europe than in the U.S. Yet
>>> European health care results are way better than ours, at
>>> far lower costs.
>>>
>>> If you have studies that prove America's bad habits are the
>>> real reason, you should post links.
>>>
>>
>> Peruse population-level death rates of obesity, diabetes,
>> heart disease, violence and ODs. We're special.
>
> Well, as far as obesity, etc., you are certainly correct as the most
> noticeable thing about U.S. tourists is that they are FAT!.
>
> But as for diet I wonder. Growing up in a small New England village I
> don't remember anyone that was fat and have always attributed it to
> the fact that people walked. I walked a mile to school from the age of
> 6. There was a school bus but it didn't stop for anyone who lived 1
> mile or less from the school. My father usually, weather depending,
> walked to work, about a mile, and so did the other men in the town.
>
> And yes most families had a car but that was for church on Sunday and
> maybe a Sunday afternoon drive with the wife and kids.
> Why would want to waste gasoline just to get to work? It was only a 20
> minute or so walk.

The set of 'people who ride bicycles and discuss them on
RBT' may not be representative of all US citizens.

Then again 'morbid obesity' doesn't describe all US citizens
either, Mr Christie, Mr Pritzger and FatCon attendees
notwithstanding.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:46:12 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 9:44 AM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>
>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>
>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>
>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>
>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>
>>>
>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>
>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>> countries?
>>
>
>Yes. This is not an accident.

You'll have to explain this as I don't understand. Are you saying that
the U.S. government somehow causes the cost of medicine, no matter
where manufactured to be sold for higher prices in the U.S.?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/10/2024 4:39 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:59:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 11:07 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>  > On 1/9/2024 9:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>  >> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>  >>>
>>>>  >>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>  >>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting
>>>>  >>> broken bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent
>>>>  >>> degradation) is well beyond their purview.
>>>>  >>>
>>>>  >>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>  >>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc
>>>> has a
>>>>  >>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>  >>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on
>>>>  >>> an appendix.
>>>>  >>>
>>>>  >>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>  >>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.
>>>>  >>> People expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>  >> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>  >> publicly funded health care.
>>>>  >>
>>>>  >
>>>>  > That's unclear.
>>>>
>>>> Not to those with less bias.
>>>>
>>>>  > Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>>  > decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number (perhaps a
>>>>  > majority).
>>>>
>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in this
>>>> forum. It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the available data,
>>>> so I'm going to pretend there's hidden magic at work."
>>>>
>>>> You appear to be claiming that Americans are unique in choosing
>>>> unhealthy behavior. But smoking, drinking and fatty foods are much
>>>> more common in Europe than in the U.S. Yet European health care
>>>> results are way better than ours, at far lower costs.
>>>>
>>>> If you have studies that prove America's bad habits are the real
>>>> reason, you should post links.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Peruse population-level death rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease,
>>> violence and ODs.  We're special.
>>
>> The question is whether those factors actually account for the huge
>> differences in higher costs and worse outcomes. If you've got actual
>> numbers demonstrating that those are the entire explanation, please show
>> us.
>>
>> But then again, if you do post proof, one Florida guy will yell
>> "Correlation is not causation!!!" ;-)
>
> ..or perhaps, Mr Muzi himself will say it. He did a little further up
> in this thread.

I think we all understand the concept and its limits.

I'm more on the side of the grammar nazis on this one; I was
inexact in my composition earlier.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/10/2024 4:40 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:47:42 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 6:36 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:44:04 +0100, Rolf Mantel
>>> <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Am 10.01.2024 um 10:45 schrieb Catrike Ryder:
>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:15:09 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:20 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 11:06 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:34:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That's still not an argument in favor of the hyper-inefficient U.S.
>>>>>>>>> system of health care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've never had any efficiency problems with my health care. Actually,
>>>>>>>> I've never had ANY problems with my health care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Resolving medical problems is often more effective by avoiding the
>>>>>>> 'health services' racket.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... for some value of "often."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> U.S. health data is dismal compared with similar countries that have
>>>>>> publicly funded health care, which is really all similar countries.
>>>>>> Perhaps part of the reason is that in the U.S. people avoid health
>>>>>> services because of cost.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> People in other countries have far less reason to avoid medical
>>>>>> treatment. They are much healthier on average than Americans, and they
>>>>>> spend much less on their health care. Articles documenting this are
>>>>>> trivially easy to find.
>>>>>
>>>>> Easy to find...
>>>>> ...by looking for leftist propaganda sites...
>>>>
>>>> It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>>>> information are dodgy.
>>>>
>>>> don't look up!
>>>
>>> Well, I'm not a leftist but my Housekeeper tells me that her total
>>> cost for 9 visits to the doctor during her pregnancy and 3 days in the
>>> hospital giving birth cost her a total of 300 baht - at today's
>>> exchange rate is $8.57 and less then one day's salary at minimum
>>> salary rates :-)
>>
>> Either her MDs are earning 2c per hour or someone else is
>> bearing the cost.
>
> No the government hospital employees work for the national government
> just as do school teachers, police, military, etc, and receive a
> salary and retirement when they get old.

Nine pregnancy/delivery hospital visits cannot possibly cost
the provider $8.57, not even with slavery or robots.

I conclude the price reflects some other source of revenue
than your housekeeper.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/10/2024 5:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:46:12 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 9:44 AM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>>
>>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>>
>>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>> countries?
>>>
>>
>> Yes. This is not an accident.
>
> You'll have to explain this as I don't understand. Are you saying that
> the U.S. government somehow causes the cost of medicine, no matter
> where manufactured to be sold for higher prices in the U.S.?

Absolutely. Else the industry could not afford high levels
of kickbacks and bribes.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:54:11 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>
>>>>>>No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>
>>>>Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>
>>>>>Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>countries are lower.
>>>>
>>>>The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>
>>>>How is that "interference"?
>>>
>>>
>>>Governments have coersive power.
>>
>>And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>countries?
>
>No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>countries.

???? I'm told that medicines used in Thai Government Hospitals are
purchased through bidding for large quantities from international
suppliers.
How is this causing medicine costs to be lower? Sounds like good
business practice to me.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:37:55 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:55:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>>On 1/10/2024 4:27 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 12:21 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:07:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>>>> decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number (perhaps a
>>>>>> majority).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in this forum.
>>>>> It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the available data, so I'm
>>>>> going to pretend there's hidden magic at work."
>>>>
>>>> No, "correlation is not causation" is a fact.
>>>
>>> No, it isn't. First off, dumbass, the phrase is "correlation does not
>>> imply causation", as you've been told a dozen times.
>>> 2nd, correlation can in fact demonstrate causation.
>>> - riding over broken glass increases the likelihood of getting a flat tire
>>> - licking a 120VAC household line increases the likelihood of being
>>> elctrocuted
>>>
>>> The phrase "correlation is not causation" is not, in fact, fact. It is
>>> demonstrable false.
>>
>>I'd prefer to improve on the common version of the phrase, which as you
>>say is "correlation does not imply causation."
>
>So Krygowski concedes that simply having a gun in your home does not
>mean that you are more likely to get shot.
>
>>Correlation often _does_ imply causation, and merits at least
>>investigating to see if causation is real. What else would be
>>investigated instead? Random variables or random occurrences?
>
>No, I think it takes more than a correlation to justify any kind of an
>investigation, or somebody would have long ago investigated the
>correlation between ice cream sales and drownings.
>
>>What the tricycle rider probably means is "correlation does not _prove_
>>causation." But as with much else, his knowledge is garbled and
>>distorted by his prejudices, and he expresses himself badly.
>
>Actually, I prefer to say "correlation does imply causation," but
>"correlation is not causation" says it just as well, and I was just
>using that phrase that Mr Muzu used further up in this thread.
>
>>The man is far from brilliant.
>
>That's from the guy who says:
>
>"I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
>that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted
>above were not bragging."
>--Frank Krygowski
>
>https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/DyBp-Is96bs/m/d04XP9qBBwAJ

I rather like Frank's statement. But it does seem to be a bit of
"patting myself on the back" as here cyclists ride on public roads and
highways, some with posted speed limits of 120 KM/H and have never
heard of Frank.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:07:37 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:54:11 -0500, Catrike Ryder
><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>>prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>>prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>>their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>>and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>>government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>>countries are lower.
>>>>>
>>>>>The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>>medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>>buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>
>>>>>How is that "interference"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Governments have coersive power.
>>>
>>>And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>>causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>>countries?
>>
>>No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>>countries.
>
>???? I'm told that medicines used in Thai Government Hospitals are
>purchased through bidding for large quantities from international
>suppliers.
>How is this causing medicine costs to be lower? Sounds like good
>business practice to me.

"negotiating" with an entity that has the power to burden your
bushiness may not be entirely fair.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:01:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 4:39 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:59:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2024 12:56 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 11:07 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>  > On 1/9/2024 9:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>  >> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>  >>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting
>>>>>  >>> broken bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent
>>>>>  >>> degradation) is well beyond their purview.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>  >>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc
>>>>> has a
>>>>>  >>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>  >>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on
>>>>>  >>> an appendix.
>>>>>  >>>
>>>>>  >>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>  >>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.
>>>>>  >>> People expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>  >> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>  >> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>  >>
>>>>>  >
>>>>>  > That's unclear.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not to those with less bias.
>>>>>
>>>>>  > Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>>>  > decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number (perhaps a
>>>>>  > majority).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in this
>>>>> forum. It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the available data,
>>>>> so I'm going to pretend there's hidden magic at work."
>>>>>
>>>>> You appear to be claiming that Americans are unique in choosing
>>>>> unhealthy behavior. But smoking, drinking and fatty foods are much
>>>>> more common in Europe than in the U.S. Yet European health care
>>>>> results are way better than ours, at far lower costs.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you have studies that prove America's bad habits are the real
>>>>> reason, you should post links.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Peruse population-level death rates of obesity, diabetes, heart disease,
>>>> violence and ODs.  We're special.
>>>
>>> The question is whether those factors actually account for the huge
>>> differences in higher costs and worse outcomes. If you've got actual
>>> numbers demonstrating that those are the entire explanation, please show
>>> us.
>>>
>>> But then again, if you do post proof, one Florida guy will yell
>>> "Correlation is not causation!!!" ;-)
>>
>> ..or perhaps, Mr Muzi himself will say it. He did a little further up
>> in this thread.
>
>I think we all understand the concept and its limits.

Some still seem confused about it.

>I'm more on the side of the grammar nazis on this one; I was
>inexact in my composition earlier.

Like I said, I prefer to say "Correlation does not prove or imply
causation," but I have no problem with "Correlation is not causation."

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:40:27 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 3:31 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>> On 1/10/2024 1:25 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 2:00 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 3:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>>>>> information are dodgy.
>>>>>
>>>>> don't look up!
>>>>
>>>> “Facts are stupid things.” ? Ronald Reagan

That is actually a misquote, what he actually said was "‘Facts are
stupid things – stubborn things, should I say"

>>>>
>>>
>>> Not the alternative facts, however...
>>
>> Exactly.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15RjcRJ3Z70
>> (19 seconds)
>
>Except when the truth isn't truth, then you have to rely on alternative
>facts.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/10/2024 2:46 PM, Tommy ranted:

> Part of the reason for Brexit was the overload of the BMS from Illegal aliens.
Hmmm, First off, it's the NHS, not BMS. Second, When Britain was part
of the EU, the immigrants weren't illegal. They became undocumented
_after_ Brexit. Besides your usual specious "facts", I can't find
anything on the burden undocumented migrants are creating on the
NHS....Roger, care to comment?

> But the communists like Krygowski won't admit it and we have commercials on the media 24 hours a day implying that black people aren't getting medical care at the same rate as white people

I've never seen/heard a commercial stating that, care to provide a link?

> when Whites are presently a minority in the USA

Whites are a minority in the US? You don't say!

> and have the same medical problems because Obamacare etc. have forced more and more companies to stop issuing medical care as part of their benefits packages.

LOL, that's so far from the truth it's beyond laughable.
https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/u-s-spending-healthcare-changed-time/
"On a per enrollee basis, private insurance spending has typically grown
much faster than Medicare and Medicaid spending"

>
> I worked in the medical business to invent more and more automation into the system to reduce costs of medical care. I traded a higher salary for the medical insurance and I'm none the worse off for it.

Well, maybe on the west coast they offer medical insurance as an offset
to salary, but on the east coast I can truthfully say my salary was
never affected by whether I participated in the company sponsored heath
care program or not.

> Today I am able to pay what coverage costs because of that.

You're on medicare, you aren't paying anything.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:53:04 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 9:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>
>>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>>
>>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>>
>>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>> countries?
>>
>> No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>> countries.
>
>As with other economic interventions, for someone to win,
>someone else has to lose. The actual cost of development
>(highly skilled and highly compensated staff, in expensive
>facilities, with regulatory oversight, over often a decade
>or more, with no guarantee of results for any given product)
>has to be borne somewhere and if not Thailand then it will
>be here. Failing a middling ROI, capital will flow to other
>industries which explains the lack of Thai breakthrough
>drugs. (actual manufacture of drugs is another system,
>often outsourced, and not significant to development cost in
>most cases.)
>
>No different from artificially high union wages- that system
>only works with plenty of non-union labor.

I'm not sure what you are saying but the larger government hospitals
here are "teaching hospitals" and it isn't unusual when you are
examined by the doctor to have a number of students present to watch.

As for breakthrugh drugs? I can only comment that the Thai deaths due
to Covid were 493/1 million pop. while the U.S. was 3559/1 million.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 07:01:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:53:04 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>>On 1/10/2024 9:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>>>
>>>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>>> countries?
>>>
>>> No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>>> countries.
>>
>>As with other economic interventions, for someone to win,
>>someone else has to lose. The actual cost of development
>>(highly skilled and highly compensated staff, in expensive
>>facilities, with regulatory oversight, over often a decade
>>or more, with no guarantee of results for any given product)
>>has to be borne somewhere and if not Thailand then it will
>>be here. Failing a middling ROI, capital will flow to other
>>industries which explains the lack of Thai breakthrough
>>drugs. (actual manufacture of drugs is another system,
>>often outsourced, and not significant to development cost in
>>most cases.)
>>
>>No different from artificially high union wages- that system
>>only works with plenty of non-union labor.
>
>I'm not sure what you are saying but the larger government hospitals
>here are "teaching hospitals" and it isn't unusual when you are
>examined by the doctor to have a number of students present to watch.
>
>As for breakthrugh drugs? I can only comment that the Thai deaths due
>to Covid were 493/1 million pop. while the U.S. was 3559/1 million.

Well, perhaps in Thailand, they only counted the deaths that were
actually caused by Covid instead of any death of a person who had
Covid.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:57:41 -0800, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 4:45 AM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>> On 1/10/2024 4:46 AM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>
>> So I'm guessing you never signed up for medicare?
>
>And of course the lack of national health care means that taxpayers
>still end up paying for those without insurance, only they end up paying
>a lot more than they would otherwise pay since the health care for the
>uninsured is delivered in the least cost-effective manner.
>
>In 1986, Ronald Reagan signed a law that requires hospitals to treat
>poor people and undocumented immigrants: "the Emergency Medical
>Treatment and Active Labor Act requires hospitals to treat patients in
>need of emergency care regardless of their ability to pay, citizenship
>or even legal status. It applies to any hospital that takes Medicare
>funds, which is virtually every hospital in the country."
>
>But the cost of not having national health care go beyond the high cost
>of treating uninsured people. At some point, it became the expectation
>that employers in the U.S. should be the source of health insurance for
>their workers. This led to the export of many living wage jobs to
>countries where there is national health care.

I'm not sure whether the results are measurable but here as the cost
to see the doctor is only 30 baht, less then 1 hour's pay at minimum
salary rates , it seem that the average bloke goes to the doctor when
he feels a bit under the weather rather then wait until he is so sick
that he has to be carried in on a stretcher.
I can't quantify it but logically it must be easier to cure a chap
with a slight cough then when it becomes full scale Pneumonia.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/10/2024 5:37 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:55:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 4:27 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 12:21 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:07:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>>>> decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number (perhaps a
>>>>>> majority).
>>>>>
>>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in this forum.
>>>>> It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the available data, so I'm
>>>>> going to pretend there's hidden magic at work."
>>>>
>>>> No, "correlation is not causation" is a fact.
>>>
>>> No, it isn't. First off, dumbass, the phrase is "correlation does not
>>> imply causation", as you've been told a dozen times.
>>> 2nd, correlation can in fact demonstrate causation.
>>> - riding over broken glass increases the likelihood of getting a flat tire
>>> - licking a 120VAC household line increases the likelihood of being
>>> elctrocuted
>>>
>>> The phrase "correlation is not causation" is not, in fact, fact. It is
>>> demonstrable false.
>>
>> I'd prefer to improve on the common version of the phrase, which as you
>> say is "correlation does not imply causation."
>
> So Krygowski concedes that simply having a gun in your home does not
> mean that you are more likely to get shot.

no, that's just you being a dumbass...again

>
>> Correlation often _does_ imply causation, and merits at least
>> investigating to see if causation is real. What else would be
>> investigated instead? Random variables or random occurrences?
>
> No, I think it takes more than a correlation to justify any kind of an
> investigation, or somebody would have long ago investigated the
> correlation between ice cream sales and drownings.

and how would you make a determination that there was more than just a
correlation without an investigation?

>
>> What the tricycle rider probably means is "correlation does not _prove_
>> causation." But as with much else, his knowledge is garbled and
>> distorted by his prejudices, and he expresses himself badly.
>
> Actually, I prefer to say "correlation does imply causation," but
> "correlation is not causation" says it just as well,

giving latitude for the deleted negation, "correlation is not causation"
is _not_ a reasonable restatement of "correlation does imply causation".
The word "imply" changes the statement rather dramatically, though I'm
not surprised you don't get that

> and I was just
> using that phrase that Mr Muzu used further up in this thread.

Which would have been fine if you just left it at that, but you had to
expound upon your ignorance.

>
>> The man is far from brilliant.
>
> That's from the guy who says:
>
> "I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
> that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted
> above were not bragging."
> --Frank Krygowski
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/DyBp-Is96bs/m/d04XP9qBBwAJ

Yup, Frank wrote that, and it in no way takes away from the fact that
you are "far from brilliant", or as I prefer to say - 'floriduh dumbass,
making the dumbshine state proud....again'.

On 1/10/2024 6:33 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:01:30 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> I think we all understand the concept and its limits.
>
> Some still seem confused about it.

Yes, you are, as is proven by

>
>> I'm more on the side of the grammar nazis on this one; I was
>> inexact in my composition earlier.
>
> Like I said, I prefer to say "Correlation does not prove or imply
> causation," but I have no problem with "Correlation is not causation."

"Correlation does not prove or imply causation" is in no way equivalent
to "Correlation is not causation" except in the mind of a willfully
ignorant floriduh dumbass

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:20:26 -0500, zen cycle
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 5:37 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:55:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2024 4:27 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 12:21 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:07:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>> Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>>>>> decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number (perhaps a
>>>>>>> majority).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in this forum.
>>>>>> It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the available data, so I'm
>>>>>> going to pretend there's hidden magic at work."
>>>>>
>>>>> No, "correlation is not causation" is a fact.
>>>>
>>>> No, it isn't. First off, dumbass, the phrase is "correlation does not
>>>> imply causation", as you've been told a dozen times.
>>>> 2nd, correlation can in fact demonstrate causation.
>>>> - riding over broken glass increases the likelihood of getting a flat tire
>>>> - licking a 120VAC household line increases the likelihood of being
>>>> elctrocuted
>>>>
>>>> The phrase "correlation is not causation" is not, in fact, fact. It is
>>>> demonstrable false.
>>>
>>> I'd prefer to improve on the common version of the phrase, which as you
>>> say is "correlation does not imply causation."
>>
>> So Krygowski concedes that simply having a gun in your home does not
>> mean that you are more likely to get shot.
>
>no, that's just you being a dumbass...again
>
>>
>>> Correlation often _does_ imply causation, and merits at least
>>> investigating to see if causation is real. What else would be
>>> investigated instead? Random variables or random occurrences?
>>
>> No, I think it takes more than a correlation to justify any kind of an
>> investigation, or somebody would have long ago investigated the
>> correlation between ice cream sales and drownings.
>
>and how would you make a determination that there was more than just a
>correlation without an investigation?
>

Well, I'd just take a wild guess that ice cream sales don't cause
drownings nor do drownings cause ice cream sales. Or maybe it would be
a conclusion based on logic or common sense.

>>
>>> What the tricycle rider probably means is "correlation does not _prove_
>>> causation." But as with much else, his knowledge is garbled and
>>> distorted by his prejudices, and he expresses himself badly.
>>
>> Actually, I prefer to say "correlation does imply causation," but
>> "correlation is not causation" says it just as well,
>
>giving latitude for the deleted negation, "correlation is not causation"
>is _not_ a reasonable restatement of "correlation does imply causation".
>The word "imply" changes the statement rather dramatically, though I'm
>not surprised you don't get that
>
>> and I was just
>> using that phrase that Mr Muzu used further up in this thread.
>
>Which would have been fine if you just left it at that, but you had to
>expound upon your ignorance.
>
>>
>>> The man is far from brilliant.
>>
>> That's from the guy who says:
>>
>> "I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
>> that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted
>> above were not bragging."
>> --Frank Krygowski
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/DyBp-Is96bs/m/d04XP9qBBwAJ
>
>Yup, Frank wrote that, and it in no way takes away from the fact that
>you are "far from brilliant", or as I prefer to say - 'floriduh dumbass,
>making the dumbshine state proud....again'.

On 1/10/2024 5:30 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:56:57 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 11:07 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> > On 1/9/2024 9:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>> >> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
>>> unreasonable
>>> >>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at
>>> setting
>>> >>> broken bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and
>>> subsequent
>>> >>> degradation) is well beyond their purview.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
>>> appendix and
>>> >>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother
>>> the doc has a
>>> >>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them
>>> are very good
>>> >>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong
>>> than right on
>>> >>> an appendix.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
>>> world of
>>> >>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty
>>> at best.
>>> >>> People expect more than is actually possible.
>>> >>
>>> >> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these
>>> complex problems
>>> >> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in
>>> nations with
>>> >> publicly funded health care.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> > That's unclear.
>>>
>>> Not to those with less bias.
>>>
>>> > Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>> > decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number
>>> (perhaps a
>>> > majority).
>>>
>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in
>>> this forum. It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the
>>> available data, so I'm going to pretend there's hidden magic
>>> at work."
>>>
>>> You appear to be claiming that Americans are unique in
>>> choosing unhealthy behavior. But smoking, drinking and fatty
>>> foods are much more common in Europe than in the U.S. Yet
>>> European health care results are way better than ours, at
>>> far lower costs.
>>>
>>> If you have studies that prove America's bad habits are the
>>> real reason, you should post links.
>>>
>>
>> Peruse population-level death rates of obesity, diabetes,
>> heart disease, violence and ODs. We're special.
>
> Well, as far as obesity, etc., you are certainly correct as the most
> noticeable thing about U.S. tourists is that they are FAT!.
>
> But as for diet I wonder. Growing up in a small New England village I
> don't remember anyone that was fat and have always attributed it to
> the fact that people walked. I walked a mile to school from the age of
> 6. There was a school bus but it didn't stop for anyone who lived 1
> mile or less from the school. My father usually, weather depending,
> walked to work, about a mile, and so did the other men in the town.
>
> And yes most families had a car but that was for church on Sunday and
> maybe a Sunday afternoon drive with the wife and kids.
> Why would want to waste gasoline just to get to work? It was only a 20
> minute or so walk.

It has more to do with the (puts on tin foil hat)

"The Great Sugar Conspiracy"
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/article-abstract/2548255

(takes off tin foil hat) Or not....

https://www.publichealth.columbia.edu/news/researchers-challenge-claims-sugar-industry-shifted-blame-fat

https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/23/17039780/sugar-industry-conspiracy-heart-disease-research-mark-hegsted-harvard

On 1/10/2024 7:30 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:20:26 -0500, zen cycle
> <funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 5:37 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:55:34 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 1/10/2024 4:27 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>>> On 1/10/2024 12:21 PM, floriduh dumbass wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:07:02 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>> Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>>>>>> decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number (perhaps a
>>>>>>>> majority).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in this forum.
>>>>>>> It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the available data, so I'm
>>>>>>> going to pretend there's hidden magic at work."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No, "correlation is not causation" is a fact.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it isn't. First off, dumbass, the phrase is "correlation does not
>>>>> imply causation", as you've been told a dozen times.
>>>>> 2nd, correlation can in fact demonstrate causation.
>>>>> - riding over broken glass increases the likelihood of getting a flat tire
>>>>> - licking a 120VAC household line increases the likelihood of being
>>>>> elctrocuted
>>>>>
>>>>> The phrase "correlation is not causation" is not, in fact, fact. It is
>>>>> demonstrable false.
>>>>
>>>> I'd prefer to improve on the common version of the phrase, which as you
>>>> say is "correlation does not imply causation."
>>>
>>> So Krygowski concedes that simply having a gun in your home does not
>>> mean that you are more likely to get shot.
>>
>> no, that's just you being a dumbass...again
>>
>>>
>>>> Correlation often _does_ imply causation, and merits at least
>>>> investigating to see if causation is real. What else would be
>>>> investigated instead? Random variables or random occurrences?
>>>
>>> No, I think it takes more than a correlation to justify any kind of an
>>> investigation, or somebody would have long ago investigated the
>>> correlation between ice cream sales and drownings.
>>
>> and how would you make a determination that there was more than just a
>> correlation without an investigation?
>>
>
> Well, I'd just take a wild guess that ice cream sales don't cause
> drownings nor do drownings cause ice cream sales. Or maybe it would be
> a conclusion based on logic or common sense.

This is how they teach science in floriduh.

>>>> What the tricycle rider probably means is "correlation does not _prove_
>>>> causation." But as with much else, his knowledge is garbled and
>>>> distorted by his prejudices, and he expresses himself badly.
>>>
>>> Actually, I prefer to say "correlation does imply causation," but
>>> "correlation is not causation" says it just as well,
>>
>> giving latitude for the deleted negation, "correlation is not causation"
>> is _not_ a reasonable restatement of "correlation does imply causation".
>> The word "imply" changes the statement rather dramatically, though I'm
>> not surprised you don't get that
>>
>>> and I was just
>>> using that phrase that Mr Muzu used further up in this thread.
>>
>> Which would have been fine if you just left it at that, but you had to
>> expound upon your ignorance.
>>
>>>
>>>> The man is far from brilliant.
>>>
>>> That's from the guy who says:
>>>
>>> "I ride as a competent adult on normal roads. I've taught others to do
>>> that, and I've been recognized for such work. The remarks I posted
>>> above were not bragging."
>>> --Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/DyBp-Is96bs/m/d04XP9qBBwAJ
>>
>> Yup, Frank wrote that, and it in no way takes away from the fact that
>> you are "far from brilliant", or as I prefer to say - 'floriduh dumbass,
>> making the dumbshine state proud....again'.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:13:59 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 07:01:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:53:04 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On 1/10/2024 9:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>>>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>>>> countries?
>>>>
>>>> No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>>>> countries.
>>>
>>>As with other economic interventions, for someone to win,
>>>someone else has to lose. The actual cost of development
>>>(highly skilled and highly compensated staff, in expensive
>>>facilities, with regulatory oversight, over often a decade
>>>or more, with no guarantee of results for any given product)
>>>has to be borne somewhere and if not Thailand then it will
>>>be here. Failing a middling ROI, capital will flow to other
>>>industries which explains the lack of Thai breakthrough
>>>drugs. (actual manufacture of drugs is another system,
>>>often outsourced, and not significant to development cost in
>>>most cases.)
>>>
>>>No different from artificially high union wages- that system
>>>only works with plenty of non-union labor.
>>
>>I'm not sure what you are saying but the larger government hospitals
>>here are "teaching hospitals" and it isn't unusual when you are
>>examined by the doctor to have a number of students present to watch.
>>
>>As for breakthrugh drugs? I can only comment that the Thai deaths due
>>to Covid were 493/1 million pop. while the U.S. was 3559/1 million.
>
>
>Well, perhaps in Thailand, they only counted the deaths that were
>actually caused by Covid instead of any death of a person who had
>Covid.

I don't know and I can only go by what I read -
some 1,165,118 in the U.S.
https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home
Or maybe Deaths - 1,104,000
https://usafacts.org/visualizations/coronavirus-covid-19-spread-map/
or
Total Deaths - 1,191,564
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
or
Deaths - 1,123,836
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/region/united-states
or
1,137,641
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

I believe U.S. death certificates are standard see
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/dvs/death11-03final-acc.pdf
Read Section 32 -" Immediate cause"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:27:27 -0500, Catrike Ryder
<Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 06:07:37 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:54:11 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>>><Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>><frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>>>publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>>>health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>>>example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>>>to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>>>prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>>>prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>>>their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>>>and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>>>government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>>>countries are lower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>>>medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>>>buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>How is that "interference"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Governments have coersive power.
>>>>
>>>>And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>>>causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>>>countries?
>>>
>>>No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>>>countries.
>>
>>???? I'm told that medicines used in Thai Government Hospitals are
>>purchased through bidding for large quantities from international
>>suppliers.
>>How is this causing medicine costs to be lower? Sounds like good
>>business practice to me.
>
>"negotiating" with an entity that has the power to burden your
>bushiness may not be entirely fair.

How is offering to buy a large quantity of a medicine, sufficient to
supply 900 hospitals, from the lowest bidder, "negotiating"?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:59:59 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 1/10/2024 4:30 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:56:57 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2024 11:07 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 9:34 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> > On 1/9/2024 9:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>> >> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have
>>>> unreasonable
>>>> >>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at
>>>> setting
>>>> >>> broken bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and
>>>> subsequent
>>>> >>> degradation) is well beyond their purview.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed
>>>> appendix and
>>>> >>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother
>>>> the doc has a
>>>> >>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them
>>>> are very good
>>>> >>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong
>>>> than right on
>>>> >>> an appendix.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a
>>>> world of
>>>> >>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty
>>>> at best.
>>>> >>> People expect more than is actually possible.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these
>>>> complex problems
>>>> >> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in
>>>> nations with
>>>> >> publicly funded health care.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> > That's unclear.
>>>>
>>>> Not to those with less bias.
>>>>
>>>> > Correlation is not causation and our US culture shows
>>>> > decidedly unhealthy aspects for some significant number
>>>> (perhaps a
>>>> > majority).
>>>>
>>>> "Correlation is not causation" is being taken to extremes in
>>>> this forum. It's become shorthand for "I don't like all the
>>>> available data, so I'm going to pretend there's hidden magic
>>>> at work."
>>>>
>>>> You appear to be claiming that Americans are unique in
>>>> choosing unhealthy behavior. But smoking, drinking and fatty
>>>> foods are much more common in Europe than in the U.S. Yet
>>>> European health care results are way better than ours, at
>>>> far lower costs.
>>>>
>>>> If you have studies that prove America's bad habits are the
>>>> real reason, you should post links.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Peruse population-level death rates of obesity, diabetes,
>>> heart disease, violence and ODs. We're special.
>>
>> Well, as far as obesity, etc., you are certainly correct as the most
>> noticeable thing about U.S. tourists is that they are FAT!.
>>
>> But as for diet I wonder. Growing up in a small New England village I
>> don't remember anyone that was fat and have always attributed it to
>> the fact that people walked. I walked a mile to school from the age of
>> 6. There was a school bus but it didn't stop for anyone who lived 1
>> mile or less from the school. My father usually, weather depending,
>> walked to work, about a mile, and so did the other men in the town.
>>
>> And yes most families had a car but that was for church on Sunday and
>> maybe a Sunday afternoon drive with the wife and kids.
>> Why would want to waste gasoline just to get to work? It was only a 20
>> minute or so walk.
>
>The set of 'people who ride bicycles and discuss them on
>RBT' may not be representative of all US citizens.
>
>Then again 'morbid obesity' doesn't describe all US citizens
>either, Mr Christie, Mr Pritzger and FatCon attendees
>notwithstanding.

Yes, of course, but the fact remains that as a whole the U.S. tourists
I see here are FAT and I read that "more than two-thirds of U.S.
adults in the United States are overweight or have obesity."
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/10/2024 5:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 16:40:27 -0500, Zen Cycle <funkmaster@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 3:31 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 1/10/2024 1:25 PM, Zen Cycle wrote:
>>>> On 1/10/2024 2:00 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 1/10/2024 3:44 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> It's a fool's best strategy to claim that all sources of unpleasant
>>>>>> information are dodgy.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> don't look up!
>>>>>
>>>>> “Facts are stupid things.” ? Ronald Reagan
>
> That is actually a misquote, what he actually said was "‘Facts are
> stupid things – stubborn things, should I say"
>
>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not the alternative facts, however...
>>>
>>> Exactly.
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15RjcRJ3Z70
>>> (19 seconds)
>>
>> Except when the truth isn't truth, then you have to rely on alternative
>> facts.

The original was from John Adams.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/10/2024 6:01 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:53:04 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 1/10/2024 9:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>>>
>>>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>>> countries?
>>>
>>> No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>>> countries.
>>
>> As with other economic interventions, for someone to win,
>> someone else has to lose. The actual cost of development
>> (highly skilled and highly compensated staff, in expensive
>> facilities, with regulatory oversight, over often a decade
>> or more, with no guarantee of results for any given product)
>> has to be borne somewhere and if not Thailand then it will
>> be here. Failing a middling ROI, capital will flow to other
>> industries which explains the lack of Thai breakthrough
>> drugs. (actual manufacture of drugs is another system,
>> often outsourced, and not significant to development cost in
>> most cases.)
>>
>> No different from artificially high union wages- that system
>> only works with plenty of non-union labor.
>
> I'm not sure what you are saying but the larger government hospitals
> here are "teaching hospitals" and it isn't unusual when you are
> examined by the doctor to have a number of students present to watch.
>
> As for breakthrugh drugs? I can only comment that the Thai deaths due
> to Covid were 493/1 million pop. while the U.S. was 3559/1 million.

You were not burdened by Dr Fauci.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 1/10/2024 6:13 PM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 07:01:20 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:53:04 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/10/2024 9:54 AM, Catrike Ryder wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:44:31 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 08:57:01 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:12:43 +0700, goodsoldierschweik@invalid.junk
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 07:36:58 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:29:08 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 06:53:51 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:26:43 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 10 Jan 2024 04:46:05 -0500, Catrike Ryder
>>>>>>>>>>> <Soloman@old.bikers.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 22:21:30 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 1/9/2024 1:32 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not dismissing your suffering but many people have unreasonable
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expectations.  Our modern medical arts are very good at setting broken
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bones and repairing wounds etc. Obesity (and subsequent degradation) is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well beyond their purview.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's a big difference between removing an inflamed appendix and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> promptly, correctly diagnosing appendicitis. My brother the doc has a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pet peeve about that; internists who see a lot of them are very good
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> diagnosticians but your average MD is more often wrong than right on an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> appendix.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Short answer= it's complex. Medical services comprise a world of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> variables and most decisions are made under uncertainty at best.  People
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> expect more than is actually possible.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, it's complex. But the data indicates that these complex problems
>>>>>>>>>>>>> are solved more accurately and far less expensively in nations with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly funded health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Seems to me that the majority of people who want taxpayer funded
>>>>>>>>>>>> health care simply want other people to pay for their health care.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I think it is more complex then the simple "somebody else pay". For
>>>>>>>>>>> example I believe that some people actually travel to Mexico or Canada
>>>>>>>>>>> to buy medicines as the same pill is cheaper there then in the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://ashpublications.org/ashclinicalnews/news/1748/Medicare-Drug-Price-Negotiation-Plan-Continues-to
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No., disregarding any government interference US prescription drug
>>>>>>>>> prices were 218% of prices in Canada, 170%of prices in Mexico, 779% of
>>>>>>>>> prices in Turkey, and 209% of prices in Japan.Feb 3, 2021
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I didn't post a reference but you can easily find one.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here, for example, there are over 900 public hospitals who obtain
>>>>>>>>> their medicines through international biding managed by the government
>>>>>>>>> and open to makers world wide with the result that the Public, i.e.,
>>>>>>>>> government, hospital medicine costs are extremely low.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Government negotiations (interference) is why drug prices in some
>>>>>>>> countries are lower.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The government here supports more then 900 hospitals and obtains most
>>>>>>> medicines through bids from international companies. When you are
>>>>>>> buying in large quantity prices do go down.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is that "interference"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Governments have coersive power.
>>>>>
>>>>> And what is that supposed to mean? That the U.S. government somehow
>>>>> causes medicine prices in the U.SA. to be so much higher then in other
>>>>> countries?
>>>>
>>>> No, that other governments cause medicine prices to be lower in their
>>>> countries.
>>>
>>> As with other economic interventions, for someone to win,
>>> someone else has to lose. The actual cost of development
>>> (highly skilled and highly compensated staff, in expensive
>>> facilities, with regulatory oversight, over often a decade
>>> or more, with no guarantee of results for any given product)
>>> has to be borne somewhere and if not Thailand then it will
>>> be here. Failing a middling ROI, capital will flow to other
>>> industries which explains the lack of Thai breakthrough
>>> drugs. (actual manufacture of drugs is another system,
>>> often outsourced, and not significant to development cost in
>>> most cases.)
>>>
>>> No different from artificially high union wages- that system
>>> only works with plenty of non-union labor.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you are saying but the larger government hospitals
>> here are "teaching hospitals" and it isn't unusual when you are
>> examined by the doctor to have a number of students present to watch.
>>
>> As for breakthrugh drugs? I can only comment that the Thai deaths due
>> to Covid were 493/1 million pop. while the U.S. was 3559/1 million.
>
>
> Well, perhaps in Thailand, they only counted the deaths that were
> actually caused by Covid instead of any death of a person who had
> Covid.

....to collect the Federal payment for Wuhan Virus on the
death certificate.
--
Andrew Muzi
am@yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971