On 22/03/2024 17:22, Tweed wrote:
> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 21/03/2024 16:31, Marland wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <l62gaaFq3vvU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:26:18 on Thu, 21
>>>> Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <l61ep4Fl86lU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:53:56 on Thu, 21
>>>>>> Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <uteaku$1dsdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:35:26 on Wed, 20 Mar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the foxes around here are quite happy to dine out on
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rotting food in bins I suspect they'd have nabbed it. Perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>> urban foxes have a hardier digestive system than their country cousins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you not get the memo that WE DON'T HAVE ANY URBAN FOXES ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Which part of "their country cousins" confused you?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I also said we don't have any country cousins around here either (wrong
>>>>>>>>>> type of landscape). Or did you add that to your list of things to
>>>>>>>>>> conveniently forget?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I can guarantee you have foxes somewhere near you. Just because
>>>>>>>>> you haven't seen or heard them doesn't mean they're not there. If
>>>>>>>>> they can survive in urban areas they can survive in the fens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They survive in urban areas because there's a food supply. I'm not sure
>>>>>>>> if they like turnips and onions. And there's precious few houses, with
>>>>>>>> or without bins or chickens.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As Boltar says, you will have foxes in Fenland ,People have got used to
>>>>>>> seeing them in Urban areas because Urban Humans think they are sweet and
>>>>>>> provide enough food and convenient places to build a Den.
>>>>>>> Their Country cousins still have to defend a territory and search out food
>>>>>>> to survive and are harder to see as they retain the natural caution that
>>>>>>> goes with survival.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We have one that passes through the garden every so often , managed to see
>>>>>>> it in the flesh once , other occasions it was caught on the wild life
>>>>>>> cameras and it also leaves a distinctive pong around the compost heap.
>>>>>>> Don’t mind it going there as the odd rat also lives around there and foxes
>>>>>>> will catch and eat them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These links are about Foxes in Fenland.
>>>>>>> <https://www.oldsite.cpre.org.uk/magazine/out-and-about/item/4604-hail-t
>>>>>>> he-fenland-foxes>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> She doesn't say which town she lives in, but if it has thickets of trees
>>>>>> it might be on the fringe of Fenland District Council, but not what we'd
>>>>>> normally call fenland[tm].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Similarly the talk of rabbits and horses competing for grazing - there
>>>>>> simply aren't any grazing horses in most of fenland[tm] and without
>>>>>> wishing to increase the list of absent-things, I've never seen a rabbit
>>>>>> round here either. Compared to say mid-Essex where they are everywhere.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/s1ttIAWQkBg?si=eJ6l5LVbalETtTzV>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Fire Brigade even found one a few years back.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48154540>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So they do live there despite your concerns about their diet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wilburton is not in the fens[tm]. It's much more of a necklace village
>>>>>> of Cambridge, and quite a different landscape and demographic.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So I think we've cleared up all this confusion (aka sloppy reporting).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And remember, I'm still quite sure no type of fox is going to be eating
>>>>>> a dead pike a few feet away from a busy riverside footpath with people
>>>>>> passing along it almost all day long (many of them dog-walkers), and
>>>>>> only six feet from moored boats with people on board essentially 24x7.
>>>>>
>>>>> That I think we have gone beyond debate out, but to say Foxes don’t do not
>>>>> live in the Fens because only Turnips and Onions are available to eat is to
>>>>> be honest quite barmy.
>>>>
>>>> And vexatiously over-reading what I wrote. I wouldn't like to say "there
>>>> are no alligators in Fenland" because they probably turn up from time to
>>>> time. But there are very slim pickings for foxes, so they'll not find it
>>>> very attractive, nor prosper.
>>>>
>>>> ps Welney is set in a rather different landscape, predominantly
>>>> permanent wetland, plus that which is flooded every year for three
>>>> or four months. I never rated foxes as aquatic mammals. Do they get the
>>>> fire brigade to pump out their sets in the Spring? Welney is about a
>>>> mile outside Fenland District (this time on the eastern side).
>>>>
>>>>> I know we Joke about the Ely effect as if it is some sort of force field
>>>>> but I doubt there is one that affects Foxes.
>>>>
>>>> It's a not very veiled dogpiling ad-hom, is way beyond "just banter",
>>>> and gets a bit old. But serves to illustrate, how deep down, so many
>>>> contributors have very little in the way of constructive criticism.
>>>>
>>>>> This person claims to have filmed these in the Fens
>>>>> <https://youtu.be/z2CkIMypakI?si=JZTN9oANvQSJLbM2>
>>>>>
>>>>> Ely museum has them on a list of Fenland Wildlife
>>>>> <http://www.elymuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Fenland-animals.pdf>
>>>>
>>>> "Foxes live underground in 'earths' or 'dens' and give birth to cubs."
>>>> Rather challenging in a landscape of a few hundred square miles of flat
>>>> as a pancake peat fields, annually ploughed and seeded with onions and
>>>> turnips.
>>>>
>>>>> This one was hit on a Fenland road
>>>>> <https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/20719124.1-000-rescue-effort-saves-life-fo
>>>>> x-trapped-underneath-car-hit-fenland-road/>
>>>>
>>>> That sounds like another example of something happening on the
>>>> Peterborough-facing fringe of Fenland District, not in fenland[tm].
>>>>
>>>>> I believe Welney is in the Fens
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-40013177>
>>>>
>>>> Isolated examples, like alligators. They are only news because they are
>>>> so unusual, like finding an alligator in your swimming pool.
>>>>
>>>>> So ample examples they do live in Fenland despite your hopes that the
>>>>> previous example were edge cases so could justify your silly supposition
>>>>> that it was “The wrong Kind of Landscape”.
>>>>
>>>> It certainly *is* the "wrong kind of landscape".
>>>>
>>>>> You just cannot bear to be wrong can you.
>>>>
>>>> There are shades of grey, rather than right/wrong, especially in the
>>>> middle of the City (which is where Boltar wrongly said a fox would
>>>> finish off a dead pike in a couple of days)
>>>
>>> Ah the old Perry diversion tactic , we had left that point , the subsequent
>>> debate has-been your erroneous statement that the Fens cannot support “
>>> Country Foxes”
>>> after actually “Shouting WE DON’t HAVE URBAN FOXES” after misreading that
>>> Boltar was talking about their country cousins. You nave been on the
>>> defensive back foot ever since.
>>>
>>> and I know which end of that
>>>> spectrum of grey it is. Hint: a very different end to Gloucestershire.
>>>
>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>
>
> Is Shetland a county ? :)
>

Tweed wrote:

> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 21/03/2024 16:31, Marland wrote:
> >>
> >> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common
> >> in all Counties,
> >
> > Not true, some counties do not have them!
> >
https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
> >
>
> Is Shetland a county ? :)

No, it's a pony! ;-)

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>
>
>
> Not true, some counties do not have them!
> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>

I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
usage?

GH

In message <l635moFt9o5U1@mid.individual.net>, at 16:31:20 on Thu, 21
Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all
>Counties ,

That's simply not true, like all wildlife their distribution varies
enormously. I picked Gloucestershire because it has many famous "hunts",
and a landscape that's wildly different to hundreds of square miles of
flatness growing onions and turnips.

>> Sorry, but you started this argument.

>It’s not an argument, its watching someone with a personality defect deny
>the truth.

Are you looking in the mirror?

>That you blatantly refuse to accept several sources of evidence that
>Foxes do inhabit the Fens is just another example that you can not
>accept being wrong, Is Ely Museum miles away?

Only a handful of them. I've explained that over and over again. So few
in fact, that a sighting gets in the papers.

>Is there are another Cambridgeshire Fire Brigade ? Of course not.
>People dogpile on you because you make stupid comments and stick by them
>because of your personality defect that you cannot ever be wrong.

No, it's your personality defect that you have to pursue extreme corner
cases in a desperate attempt to prove *you* are right.

>It makes you look silly and also makes anything else you say untrustworthy
>even if it may be right.

Every time this meme arises I ask for examples of substantive mainstream
issues I get wrong, and no-one ever produces an example (which is
unsurprising considering the volumes of source material uniquely I
quote). All they can do is pursue even more bizarre edge cases scraped
from loony blogs and local newspapers written by illiterate interns.
--
Roland Perry

In message <l635moFt9o5U1@mid.individual.net>, at 16:31:20 on Thu, 21
Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:

>>> You just cannot bear to be wrong can you.
>>
>> There are shades of grey, rather than right/wrong, especially in the
>> middle of the City (which is where Boltar wrongly said a fox would
>> finish off a dead pike in a couple of days)
>
>Ah the old Perry diversion tactic ,

That's a figment of your imagination. I have far better things to do.

>we had left that point , the subsequent debate has-been your erroneous
>statement that the Fens cannot support “ Country Foxes” after
>actually “Shouting WE DON’t HAVE URBAN FOXES” after misreading
>that Boltar was talking about their country cousins. You nave been on
>the defensive back foot ever since.

Not surprising, given the ridiculous degree of vexatious pedantry and
nit picking I've been subjected to.
--
Roland Perry

On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
wrote:

>ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>
>>
>>
>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>
>
>I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>usage?
>
Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
government administration, one current function being land
registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
counties.

On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>
>>
>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>> usage?
>>
> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
> government administration, one current function being land
> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
> counties.

In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>
>>>
>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>>> usage?
>>>
>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>> government administration, one current function being land
>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>> counties.
>
>In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>
Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
See also Hjaltland.

On 22/03/2024 21:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>>>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>>>> usage?
>>>>
>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>> counties.
>>
>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>
> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
> See also Hjaltland.

I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one name.
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/03/2024 21:30, Graeme Wall wrote:
> I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one
> name.

I am sure there are exceptions?

Like other counties, the County Palatine was often known as the County
of Lancaster.

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:30:52 +0000, Graeme Wall
<rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:

>On 22/03/2024 21:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>>>>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>>>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>>>>> usage?
>>>>>
>>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>>> counties.
>>>
>>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>>
>> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
>> See also Hjaltland.
>
>I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one name.
>
Most have an everyday and a more formal "County of...." version -
Lancashire - County of Lancaster
Hertfordshire - County of Hertford
etc.

On 22/03/2024 22:02, JMB99 wrote:
> On 22/03/2024 21:30, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one
>> name.
>
>
> I am sure there are exceptions?
>
> Like other counties, the County Palatine was often known as the County
> of Lancaster.
>
>

I thought the County Palatine was Durham?
--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 22/03/2024 17:25, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 22/03/2024 17:22, Tweed wrote:
>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 21/03/2024 16:31, Marland wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <l62gaaFq3vvU1@mid.individual.net>, at 10:26:18 on Thu, 21
>>>>> Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <l61ep4Fl86lU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:53:56 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 21
>>>>>>> Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <uteaku$1dsdi$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:35:26 on Wed,
>>>>>>>>> 20 Mar
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Given the foxes around here are quite happy to dine out on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rotting food in  bins I suspect they'd have nabbed it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> urban foxes have a hardier  digestive system than their
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> country cousins.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you not get the memo that WE DON'T HAVE ANY URBAN FOXES ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Which part of "their country cousins" confused you?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I also said we don't have any country cousins around here
>>>>>>>>>>> either (wrong
>>>>>>>>>>> type of landscape). Or did you add that to your list of
>>>>>>>>>>> things to
>>>>>>>>>>> conveniently forget?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I can guarantee you have foxes somewhere near you. Just because
>>>>>>>>>> you haven't  seen or heard them doesn't mean they're not
>>>>>>>>>> there. If
>>>>>>>>>> they can survive in  urban areas they can survive in the fens.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They survive in urban areas because there's a food supply. I'm
>>>>>>>>> not sure
>>>>>>>>> if they like turnips and onions. And there's precious few
>>>>>>>>> houses, with
>>>>>>>>> or without bins or chickens.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As Boltar says, you will have foxes in Fenland ,People have got
>>>>>>>> used to
>>>>>>>> seeing them in Urban areas because Urban Humans think they are
>>>>>>>> sweet and
>>>>>>>> provide enough food and convenient places to build a Den.
>>>>>>>> Their Country cousins still have to defend  a territory and
>>>>>>>> search out food
>>>>>>>> to survive and are harder to see as they retain the natural
>>>>>>>> caution that
>>>>>>>> goes with survival.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We have one that passes through the garden every so often ,
>>>>>>>> managed to see
>>>>>>>> it in the flesh once  , other occasions it was caught on the
>>>>>>>> wild life
>>>>>>>> cameras and it also leaves a distinctive pong around the compost
>>>>>>>> heap.
>>>>>>>> Don’t mind it going there as the odd rat also lives around there
>>>>>>>> and foxes
>>>>>>>> will catch and eat them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These links are about Foxes in Fenland.
>>>>>>>> <https://www.oldsite.cpre.org.uk/magazine/out-and-about/item/4604-hail-t
>>>>>>>> he-fenland-foxes>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> She doesn't say which town she lives in, but if it has thickets
>>>>>>> of trees
>>>>>>> it might be on the fringe of Fenland District Council, but not
>>>>>>> what we'd
>>>>>>> normally call fenland[tm].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Similarly the talk of rabbits and horses competing for grazing -
>>>>>>> there
>>>>>>> simply aren't any grazing horses in most of fenland[tm] and without
>>>>>>> wishing to increase the list of absent-things, I've never seen a
>>>>>>> rabbit
>>>>>>> round here either. Compared to say mid-Essex where they are
>>>>>>> everywhere.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/s1ttIAWQkBg?si=eJ6l5LVbalETtTzV>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Fire Brigade even found one a few years back.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-cambridgeshire-48154540>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> So they do live there despite your concerns about their diet.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wilburton is not in the fens[tm]. It's much more of a necklace
>>>>>>> village
>>>>>>> of Cambridge, and quite a different landscape and demographic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So I think we've cleared up all this confusion (aka sloppy
>>>>>>> reporting).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And remember, I'm still quite sure no type of fox is going to be
>>>>>>> eating
>>>>>>> a dead pike a few feet away from a busy riverside footpath with
>>>>>>> people
>>>>>>> passing along it almost all day long (many of them dog-walkers), and
>>>>>>> only six feet from moored boats with people on board essentially
>>>>>>> 24x7.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That I think we have gone beyond debate out, but to say Foxes
>>>>>> don’t do not
>>>>>> live in the Fens because only Turnips and Onions are available to
>>>>>> eat is to
>>>>>> be honest quite barmy.
>>>>>
>>>>> And vexatiously over-reading what I wrote. I wouldn't like to say
>>>>> "there
>>>>> are no alligators in Fenland" because they probably turn up from
>>>>> time to
>>>>> time. But there are very slim pickings for foxes, so they'll not
>>>>> find it
>>>>> very attractive, nor prosper.
>>>>>
>>>>> ps Welney is set in a rather different landscape, predominantly
>>>>> permanent wetland, plus that which is flooded every year for three
>>>>> or four months. I never rated foxes as aquatic mammals. Do they get
>>>>> the
>>>>> fire brigade to pump out their sets in the Spring? Welney is about a
>>>>> mile outside Fenland District (this time on the eastern side).
>>>>>
>>>>>> I know we Joke about the Ely effect as if it is some sort of force
>>>>>> field
>>>>>> but I doubt there is one that affects Foxes.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's a not very veiled dogpiling ad-hom, is way beyond "just banter",
>>>>> and gets a bit old. But serves to illustrate, how deep down, so many
>>>>> contributors have very little in the way of constructive criticism.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This person claims to have filmed these in the Fens
>>>>>> <https://youtu.be/z2CkIMypakI?si=JZTN9oANvQSJLbM2>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ely museum has them on a list of Fenland Wildlife
>>>>>> <http://www.elymuseum.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/Fenland-animals.pdf>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Foxes live underground in 'earths' or 'dens' and give birth to cubs."
>>>>> Rather challenging in a landscape of a few hundred square miles of
>>>>> flat
>>>>> as a pancake peat fields, annually ploughed and seeded with onions and
>>>>> turnips.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This one was hit on a Fenland road
>>>>>> <https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/20719124.1-000-rescue-effort-saves-life-fo
>>>>>> x-trapped-underneath-car-hit-fenland-road/>
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds like another example of something happening on the
>>>>> Peterborough-facing fringe of Fenland District, not in fenland[tm].
>>>>>
>>>>>> I believe Welney is in the Fens
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cambridgeshire-40013177>
>>>>>
>>>>> Isolated examples, like alligators. They are only news because they
>>>>> are
>>>>> so unusual, like finding an alligator in your swimming pool.
>>>>>
>>>>>> So ample examples they do live in Fenland  despite your hopes that
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> previous example were edge cases so could justify your silly
>>>>>> supposition
>>>>>> that it was “The wrong Kind of Landscape”.
>>>>>
>>>>> It certainly *is* the "wrong kind of landscape".
>>>>>
>>>>>> You just cannot bear to be wrong can you.
>>>>>
>>>>> There are shades of grey, rather than right/wrong, especially in the
>>>>> middle of the City (which is where Boltar wrongly said a fox would
>>>>> finish off a dead pike in a couple of days)
>>>>
>>>> Ah the old Perry diversion tactic , we had left that point , the
>>>> subsequent
>>>> debate has-been your erroneous statement  that the Fens cannot
>>>> support “
>>>> Country Foxes”
>>>> after actually “Shouting WE DON’t HAVE URBAN FOXES” after misreading
>>>> that
>>>> Boltar was talking about their country cousins.   You nave been on the
>>>> defensive back foot ever since.
>>>>
>>>> and I know which end of that
>>>>> spectrum of grey it is. Hint: a very different end to Gloucestershire.
>>>>
>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all
>>>> Counties ,
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>
>>
>> Is Shetland a county ? :)
>>
>
> Not any more, since 1996 it's bee a Council Area.

On 22/03/2024 22:06, Graeme Wall wrote:
> I thought the County Palatine was Durham?

Just checked and there are several but it does seem to use mainly for
Lancashire.

On 22/03/2024 21:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all
>>>>> Counties ,
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>
>>>
>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout
>>> much of
>>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word
>>> Regions
>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just
>>> historic
>>> usage?
>>>
>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>> government administration, one current function being land
>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>> counties.
>
> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>

Back in the day there were two council areas in Shetland, Lerwick Town
Council and Zetland County Council which were all but distinct from each
other.

"As it represented a much larger area than the Lerwick-based Town
Council, it had a greater number of councillors; up to 27. Initially, it
did elect County Councillors for Lerwick, but this practise was
abolished from the 1932 election onward. The body was led by a convenor
and vice convenor, while later other positions were added, such as
Treasurer and Dean of Guild."
http://shetlandhistory.com/Zetland_County_Council

A "relic", but still in force:
"The Zetland County Council Act 1974 gave the new Shetland Islands
Council extraordinary powers over the seas around Shetland. They are
powers which, in the whole of the UK, remain unique to Shetland to this
day."
https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/04/05/shetland-a-model-for-the-future

As a result of this SIC is one of the few councils that I know of where
a council department earns millions each year for the council when most
council departments spend money!

--
Colin

ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
> On 22/03/2024 21:08, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all
>>>>>> Counties ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout
>>>> much of
>>>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word
>>>> Regions
>>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just
>>>> historic
>>>> usage?
>>>>
>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>> counties.
>>
>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>
>
> Back in the day there were two council areas in Shetland, Lerwick Town
> Council and Zetland County Council which were all but distinct from each
> other.
>
> "As it represented a much larger area than the Lerwick-based Town
> Council, it had a greater number of councillors; up to 27. Initially, it
> did elect County Councillors for Lerwick, but this practise was
> abolished from the 1932 election onward. The body was led by a convenor
> and vice convenor, while later other positions were added, such as
> Treasurer and Dean of Guild."
> http://shetlandhistory.com/Zetland_County_Council
>
> A "relic", but still in force:
> "The Zetland County Council Act 1974 gave the new Shetland Islands
> Council extraordinary powers over the seas around Shetland. They are
> powers which, in the whole of the UK, remain unique to Shetland to this
> day."
> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2013/04/05/shetland-a-model-for-the-future
>
> As a result of this SIC is one of the few councils that I know of where
> a council department earns millions each year for the council when most
> council departments spend money!
>

Interesting, I could see opposition to say Wind farms off Bournemouth or
the I.O.W to be far less if Council Tax payers could start to benefit from
revenue from them.

GH

In message <1jvrvi98mi653akj20c410ierefhbrdqc9@4ax.com>, at 22:04:25 on
Fri, 22 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:30:52 +0000, Graeme Wall
><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On 22/03/2024 21:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in
>>>>>>>>Counties ,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-
>>>>>>>taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common
>>>>>>throughout much of Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so
>>>>>>avoided adding the word Regions as well , Is Shetland sill a
>>>>>>County in the old sense or is it just historic usage?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>>>> counties.
>>>>
>>>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>>>
>>> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
>>> See also Hjaltland.
>>
>>I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one name.
>>
>Most have an everyday and a more formal "County of...." version -
>Lancashire - County of Lancaster
>Hertfordshire - County of Hertford

City of Peterborough - County of Peterborough (previously part of the
County of Huntingdon and Peterborough, and before that County of the
Soke of Peterborough).
--
Roland Perry

On 22/03/2024 22:19, ColinR wrote:
> Back in the day there were two council areas in Shetland, Lerwick Town
> Council and Zetland County Council which were all but distinct from each
> other.

Similar in many places. There was a Inverness and Inverness-shire each
with council and own police force.

And of course the small village of Kinlochleven had a county boundary
through the middle of the village so had two police stations!

On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:14:52 +0000, Charles Ellson wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>
> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.

Actually it's the same name. The first letter is supposed to be a yogh.
But as England doesn't use the letter yogh, it was written as Z - which
looks similar, but is not pronounced at all the same. So the more modern
version used "Sh", which looks nothing like a yogh but is pronounced
something fairly close.

See also the name Menzies, which is also originally spelled with a yogh
and pronounced something like "Ming-iss". Menzies Campbell is the only
person I've heard of that uses the old pronunciation, most people seem to
pronounce it as spelled "Men-zees".

Mike

Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>>>> Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>>>> usage?
>>>>
>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>> counties.
>>
>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>
> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
> See also Hjaltland.

See also Shropshire and Salop.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 17:30:23 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
<ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:

>Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in all Counties ,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>>> https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common throughout much of
>>>>> Scotland I wasn?t sure about all of it so avoided adding the word Regions
>>>>> as well , Is Shetland sill a County in the old sense or is it just historic
>>>>> usage?
>>>>>
>>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>>> counties.
>>>
>>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>>
>> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
>> See also Hjaltland.
>
>See also Shropshire and Salop.
>
That is a different two versions from what I had in mind, e.g. the
everyday "XYZshire" and the more formal "County of XYZ" as typically
encountered in legal notices and records etc.

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 06:55:45 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
wrote:

>In message <1jvrvi98mi653akj20c410ierefhbrdqc9@4ax.com>, at 22:04:25 on
>Fri, 22 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:30:52 +0000, Graeme Wall
>><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On 22/03/2024 21:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in
>>>>>>>>>Counties ,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-
>>>>>>>>taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common
>>>>>>>throughout much of Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so
>>>>>>>avoided adding the word Regions as well , Is Shetland sill a
>>>>>>>County in the old sense or is it just historic usage?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>>>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>>>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>>>>> counties.
>>>>>
>>>>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>>>>
>>>> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
>>>> See also Hjaltland.
>>>
>>>I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one name.
>>>
>>Most have an everyday and a more formal "County of...." version -
>>Lancashire - County of Lancaster
>>Hertfordshire - County of Hertford
>
>City of Peterborough - County of Peterborough (previously part of the
>County of Huntingdon and Peterborough, and before that County of the
>Soke of Peterborough).
>
Those were "City and County of..." which were shireless other than in
terms of the immediate surrounding area rather than the county which
contained them.

On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 08:38:09 +0000, JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

>On 22/03/2024 22:19, ColinR wrote:
>> Back in the day there were two council areas in Shetland, Lerwick Town
>> Council and Zetland County Council which were all but distinct from each
>> other.
>
>
>
>Similar in many places. There was a Inverness and Inverness-shire each
>with council and own police force.
>
>
>And of course the small village of Kinlochleven had a county boundary
>through the middle of the village so had two police stations!
>
Until counties were formally set up (with suitably adjusted
boundaries) as local government units in the 19th century there were
many parishes in Scotland which had county boundaries running through
them or had detached portions of an adjacent county.

In message <l657vaF8ghsU1@mid.individual.net>, at 11:22:18 on Fri, 22
Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>> In message <l6398uFtql7U1@mid.individual.net>, at 17:32:14 on Thu, 21
>> Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <l61ep4Fl86lU1@mid.individual.net>, at 00:53:56 on Thu, 21
>>>> Mar 2024, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>> These links are about Foxes in Fenland.
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.oldsite.cpre.org.uk/magazine/out-and-about/item/4604-hail
>>>>> -the-fenland-foxes>
>>>>
>>>> I have never, ever, seen anyone riding a horse in the Fens[tm]; again
>>>> it's completely the wrong sort of landscape.
>>>>
>>>> What we do have, though is a couple of smallholdings (I think) which
>>>> have a horse and 4-wheel trap, and are seen up to several times a week.
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.perry.co.uk/images/Horse%20and%20Trap%202023.jpg>
>>>
>>> There seem to be several equestrian centres in Fenland and a few
>>> campaigns about Bridle Paths some of which are riders who have used a track
>>> for decades and want it legally designated a legal bridle path.
>>>
>>> If you have never seen someone riding a horse in the area it must be
>>> because your lifestyle means your and their paths never cross,
>>
>> Over much of fenland[tm] you can see as far as the horizon, and any
>> horse rider in the middle of a field of turnips would stand out like
>> a sore thumb.
>>
>>> and the same will apply to Foxes who are deliberately elusive.
>>
>> Cowering in their flooded dens under the fields of onions?
>>
>> Why don't you come down and see for yourself, rather than rely on
>> secondhand gossip (often with a poor grasp of the difference between
>> Fenland District and Fenland[tm], scraped from t'Internet?
>>
>
>For someone who often asks for cites to back up statements which unless
>people are going to post books to you will usually be on the t’internet
>your refusal to recognise several valid examples of Foxes
>existing in Fenland says more about your mindset , the one that cannot bear
>they may be wrong.

I have very clearly explained (with the crocodile analogy) that only an
argumentative arch-pedant disparate to prove *they* were right, would
approach a discussion like this on the basis that one swallow makes a
summer.

Another analogy would be saying things (which I have heard with my own
ears) "it never snows in Nottingham". Another thing that's based on the
geography. It's simply not good enough to dismiss someone like that as a
pathological liar because there's a newspaper report of one snow shower
back in 2010.

Or if you prefer something with trains "There are no HSTs on the Fen
Line". Even if we add the disclaimer "In passenger service" (on account
of the transfers to and from the Papworth graveyard), there have been
two weekends in the past ten years with diversions Peterborough-March-
Ely-Cambridge-Royston-Hitchin. Which apparently (in some eyes) proves
how consistently unreliable the person making the assertion is.

And then there's the Flying Banana, but its passengers aren't the
general public.

>Foxes are very adaptable, they will be finding somewhere . Not all Fenland

Do you mean Fenland District Council, or the area known as "the Fens".

Conflating the two is at least 80% of the problem in this discussion.

And of course, not all of Fenland District is "fens", nor is there an
absence of fens in other districts such was East Cambs.

>is underwater all the time

Nobody said that. And by "All the time" I don't rely upon that meaning
24x7x365, but I have commented that quite large areas are literally
under water for several months each year, and much of the rest is
waterlogged apart from a couple of months a year.

>otherwise it would not be Fenland but Fenlake.

Historically, the Fens are peat *bog* out of which rises a few outcrops
like the Isle of Ely. Over the centuries it has been drained so as not
to be permanently literally under water, but that results in the peat
shrinking and the surface sinking further and further, often to below
sea level. So the effect of the water table means it's still very wet.
but of course that's why it's also good for certain crops which thrive
in such conditions.

Farmers however, often need to go to extremes to cultivate it, not only
do the use tracked tractors, but also monsters with four double-width
tyres, which are a particular hazard if encountered on the narrow fen
roads.

<https://www.alamy.com/large-green-claas-arion-640-tractor-with-double-
tyres-pulling-agricultural-equipment-on-road-on-a-sunny-day-of-may-salo-
finland-may-13-2021-image491752715.html>

Yes, different country, but same configuration.

Meanwhile, Fen*land* is the land of the Fens. There's several lakes,
too, as it happens. Dig a big hole (to mine for clay or something) and
it rapidly fills up with water. Just like a fox's underground den would.

>As for visiting, must get there one day, Eastern England is a neglected
>part of my itinerary with only a few brief incursions . The first of which
>was when I was about 4 and visited some of Grandmothers
>family somewhere near Newmarket.

The Fens don't get quite as far as Newmarket. Maybe to Soham.

>To get some railway content in that was
>where I first saw a DMU but it was the unusual looking steam engine which
>has stuck. It was the cab Windows that were different to the WR and SR ones
>I had seen up to then, they seemed more arched.
>Possibly a B1 but may have something older. It would have circa 1958.
>
>GH
>
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <1ba10jloupk8idebdhtenio41urpt42f9i@4ax.com>, at 22:32:25 on
Sun, 24 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Sat, 23 Mar 2024 06:55:45 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <1jvrvi98mi653akj20c410ierefhbrdqc9@4ax.com>, at 22:04:25 on
>>Fri, 22 Mar 2024, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>remarked:
>>>On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:30:52 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>><rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 22/03/2024 21:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 22 Mar 2024 21:08:56 +0000, Graeme Wall
>>>>> <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 22/03/2024 20:14, Charles Ellson wrote:
>>>>>>> On 22 Mar 2024 17:42:52 GMT, Marland <gemehabal@btinternet.co.uk>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ColinR <rail@greystane.shetland.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any reason for picking Gloucestershire , Foxes are common in
>>>>>>>>>>Counties ,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not true, some counties do not have them!
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>https://www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2008/10/03/dead-fox-may-have-been-
>>>>>>>>>taken-to-isles-as-a-hoax
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I used Counties deliberately as though Foxes are common
>>>>>>>>throughout much of Scotland I wasn’t sure about all of it so
>>>>>>>>avoided adding the word Regions as well , Is Shetland sill a
>>>>>>>>County in the old sense or is it just historic usage?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Counties still exist in Scotland for purposes other than local
>>>>>>> government administration, one current function being land
>>>>>>> registration whose counties predated the creation of local government
>>>>>>> counties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In which case Shetland is not a county, it is Zetland.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Same place, different name; most counties have at least two versions.
>>>>> See also Hjaltland.
>>>>
>>>>I assume you mean Scottish counties, English counties tend to have one name.
>>>>
>>>Most have an everyday and a more formal "County of...." version -
>>>Lancashire - County of Lancaster
>>>Hertfordshire - County of Hertford
>>
>>City of Peterborough - County of Peterborough (previously part of the
>>County of Huntingdon and Peterborough, and before that County of the
>>Soke of Peterborough).
>>
>Those were "City and County of..." which were shireless other than in
>terms of the immediate surrounding area rather than the county which
>contained them.

"City and County of Huntingdon and Peterborough" doesn't sound right.
--
Roland Perry