On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 23:30:23 +0000, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> In message <APodN.450$ogWb.246@fx14.ams1> at Sun, 10 Dec 2023 20:02:39,
> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>>On 10-Dec-23 18:05, Vicky wrote:
> []
>>> for a few years. In both the hybrid and all E i love that on cold
>>> mornings I can heat the car with a phone command before I go
>>> out to it.
>
> Technically, there's no reason why a fuel-only car can't have this,
> though you'd have to be able to remotely start the engine; however, I
> think hardly any such _do_ offer it.

Though technically there might potentially be law about doing so in
some circumstances.

"Your neighbour is correct that it is a breach of the Highway Code,
Rule 123, to leave a parked vehicle unattended with the engine
running or to leave a vehicle engine running unnecessarily whilst
that vehicle is stationary on a public road.

"Whilst a breach of the Highway Code is not always a criminal offence,
this rule is also contained in the Road Vehicle (Construction and Use)
Regulations 1986 at Regulation 107(1) and Section 42 Road Traffic
Act 1988 which makes a breach of Regulation 107(1) a criminal offence."
<https://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/opinion/the-law-explained-on-leaving-your-car-unattended-with-the-
engine-running-139058>

On Sunday, December 10, 2023 at 7:18:39 PM UTC-5, Joe Kerr wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 23:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> >
> > Technically, there's no reason why a fuel-only car can't have this,
> > though you'd have to be able to remotely start the engine; however, I
> > think hardly any such _do_ offer it.

I've had that on a couple of cars. One had it already, and on the second I had installed. Something like these: https://cartoys.com/collections/remote-starts

It provided an additional fob for the key ring, with a button to press and hold to start the engine, but leaving the vehicle locked. It was very convenient.

> I'm not an expert on this but I'm pretty sure that it is fairly common
> across the pond in the areas that are unpleasantly cold in winter
> (rather than unpleasantly hot in summer). Vehicles have a small
> rectangular socket sticking put of the grill where they can be plugged
> in to the mains to heat the vehicle and the engine so it can actually be
> started.

That's a whole other system, where one plugs in the vehicle which creates a small amount of heat to keep the oil more liquid - this prevents engine damage when parked for a long time, and makes starting the vehicle much easier as very cold oil is heavy for the starter motor to turn (and is not doing a good job of lubricating the metal parts). Public places (offices, hotels, supermarkets) often have plugs for this purpose. https://fm.kuac.org/energy-environment/2017-11-06/200-additional-vehicle-engine-heater-plug-ins-at-public-buildings-to-improve-area-air-quality

On 10-Dec-23 23:15, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> In message <ul4ice$2n4qo$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 10 Dec 2023 14:35:58,
> Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> writes
>> Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> wrote:
> []
>>> Ah, boilers I have known.....We had a Servowarm at one time.  Was that
>>> the one in the form of a gas fire with boiler behind/attached?  The
>
> I have that sort - the gas fire is entirely separate from the boiler,
> and is only used in extreme circumstances.
>
>>> memory is misty, probably a good thing.  I know with more than one
>>> boiler the flame would go out and have to be re-lit to make it do its
>>> thing.
>>>
> I had that - the pilot light would go out increasingly often. (Initially
> I thought it was only when the wind was in a certain direction - I think
> initially it was - but eventually it got tedious.) The guy who came to
> fix it - he just replaced the unit with the pilot light in it - as a
> matter of course took the whole boiler apart and cleaned it; I didn't
> mind, I _didn't_ think he was just dong it to up the bill, he seemed a
> conscientious chap. I was amazed how clean it was anyway: it certainly
> hadn't had any attention since I moved in, which I think was at least
> ten years by that point. Natural gas burns very cleanly.

It does, but as a gas appliance needs a steady inflow of air, it can
accumulate a surprising amount of fluff and dust over time.

--
Sam Plusnet

On 11-Dec-23 0:18, Joe Kerr wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 23:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <APodN.450$ogWb.246@fx14.ams1> at Sun, 10 Dec 2023
>> 20:02:39, Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>>> On 10-Dec-23 18:05, Vicky wrote:
>> []
>>>> for a few years.  In both the hybrid and all E i love that on cold
>>>> mornings I can heat the car with a phone command before I go out to
>>>> it.
>>
>> Technically, there's no reason why a fuel-only car can't have this,
>> though you'd have to be able to remotely start the engine; however, I
>> think hardly any such _do_ offer it.
>>>
> I'm not an expert on this but I'm pretty sure that it is fairly common
> across the pond in the areas that are unpleasantly cold in winter
> (rather than unpleasantly hot in summer). Vehicles have a small
> rectangular socket sticking put of the grill where they can be plugged
> in to the mains to heat the vehicle and the engine so it can actually be
> started.

Such devices used to be very common on Norway, I have no idea if it is
still true.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet wrote:

>On 11-Dec-23 0:18, Joe Kerr wrote:

>> I'm not an expert on this but I'm pretty sure that it is fairly common
>> across the pond in the areas that are unpleasantly cold in winter
>> (rather than unpleasantly hot in summer). Vehicles have a small
>> rectangular socket sticking put of the grill where they can be plugged
>> in to the mains to heat the vehicle and the engine so it can actually be
>> started.
>
>Such devices used to be very common on Norway, I have no idea if it is
>still true.

Back in the 70s, on a winter trip to Sweden, I was told that many
cars had fuel-fired heaters on timers, and that if you walked
through the works car park near finishing time you would hear the
whoosh of them firing up.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham
'48/33 M B+ G++ A L(-) I S-- CH0(--)(p) Ar- T+ H0 ?Q
chris@cdixon.me.uk @ChrisJDixon1
Plant amazing Acers.

On 10/12/2023 16:05, krw wrote:
> On 10.12.23 10:50, BrritSki wrote:
>> nor the possibility (probability according to some) that the Luton
>> fire started in a hybrid Evoque.
>
> I believe the fire service confirmed that the fire commenced in diesel
> powered vehicle.
>
They report I saw said that it started in a car with a diesel engine.
The Evoque hybrid has a diesel engine. The picture of the car showing
the fire starting had flames coming from under the passenger seat where
the battery is on the hybrid.
Someone claims to have the Reg and that it's a diesel on Gov.uk, but
with the lower emissions that are appropriate for the hybrid.
Other conspiracy theories are available

My initial thought was an EV but when I heard the fire was put out in a
couple of hours I changed my mind as EV fires are very hard to
extinguish. So I think it's inlikely to be an EV but I still have an
open mind about it though.

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 10-Dec-23 18:15, Vicky wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 16:22:39 +0000, Chris J Dixon <chris@cdixon.me.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Joe Kerr wrote:
>>>
>>>> As for your Ascot: I found that far more entertaining than I'm sure you did.
>>>
>>> I once spent a few weeks in a grotty flat in darkest Salford (so
>>> long ago that Salford Van Hire only hired vans in Salford) (1)
>>> with a temperamental water heater which gave astonishing
>>> explosions whenever you tried to use it, no matter what technique
>>> you employed.
>>>
>>> In the end I bequeathed it a Dymo label:
>>>
>>> "To avoid explosions, turn tap on quickly. Or was it slowly?"
>>>
>>> (1) The cinema slide advertising them showed three of their vans
>>> on the adjacent cobbled street, where I lived for a few months.
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> My mum had an ascot for many years in her rented flat and it just did
>> water I think and was fine. The coal-fired heating was included with
>> the rent and we kept toasty from when they turned it on, I think it
>> was October, until it went off. There were electric fires in the
>> living room and mum's bedroom, but not in mine.
>
> This thread reminds me of the school's 'method', which was to start up
> the heating on a certain date on the calendar - heedless of the actual
> weather.
>
> Oh how we boiled/froze.
>

British Rail used the same philosophy.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 10-Dec-23 8:55, Mike McMillan wrote:
>> Clive Arthur <clive@nowaytoday.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 09/12/2023 17:06, Mike McMillan wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Just checked our consumption on this very mild day and over the last 16
>>>> hours, our heat pump consumption has averaged 625 watt/h.
>>>
>>> As you know, a watt is a unit of power. Power is the rate at which
>>> energy is used or generated, for example, a 2kW heater uses energy twice
>>> as quickly as a 1kW heater and gives out twice as much heat.
>>>
>>> A watt per hour (watt/h as you put it) is rate of change of power - not
>>> really a useful unit in this context, and certainly not germane to power
>>> consumption.
>>>
>>> A watt-hour (watts x hours) is a unit of energy. Power used times the
>>> amount of time it was used for. Energy is what you pay for, or what you
>>> generate, or what a battery stores. The proper SI unit is joules or
>>> watt-seconds, but watt-hours is maybe more convenient.
>>>
>>> To lift, say, a 1 tonne weight up 1 meter needs a certain amount of
>>> energy, approx 10kJ or 2.6 watt-hours[1]. You can do that (assuming
>>> mechanical perfection) slowly or quickly, using low power for a long
>>> time or high power for a short time, but the energy required is the same.
>>>
>>> So I suspect your heat pump averaged 625 watts over the last 16 hours
>>> which amounts to 10kWh.
>>>
>>> [1] Interesting to note that lifting say a 2T car up 100m uses a bit
>>> over half a kWh costing about 16p. I wouldn't do it for that.
>>>
>>
>> Or on my tariff, 8.2505p. (Very approx.).
>>
> Don't forget the standing charge (you were intending to stand at some
> point?)
>

And don’t forget to lift the seat!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 10-Dec-23 18:10, Vicky wrote:
>> On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 08:10:38 -0800 (PST), Ben Blaney
>> <benblaney@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On Friday, December 8, 2023 at 12:28:04?PM UTC-5, Chris J Dixon wrote:
>>>> BrritSki wrote:
>>>>
>>>> BOFE now has an electric car, which has increased our demand
>>>> somewhat.
>>>
>>> I don't have solar, but we do have an electric car. To my amazement,
>>> after we got it, there was barely a noticeable increase in our
>>> utilities bill. To be fair, that car is used by Mrs B, who has a commute of 4 miles.
>>
>> I, too, was mostly just going 5 miles to swim daily, until I broke my
>> nuggering arm, and now haven't driven since October, with no chance
>> until after physio signs me off as legal to drive, and that doesn't
>> begin until 20/12. They turned out to be picky about using both
>> hands, the Dr said.
>
> There seem to be far more reasons for withholding driving licences these
> days.
>
> Wofe has a CPAP machine, and the sleep clinic have now said she is now
> OK to drive again after a year's track record shows sufficient 'progress'.
> She hasn't actually driven for several years now, but she occasionally
> threatens me with the prospect of giving her a refresher course.
>

The Cardiac Care Unit nursing staff have told me not to drive until the
medical mysteries are sorted out. That is such a shame for I was looking
forward to being able to not drive anyway!

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <ul4ice$2n4qo$1@dont-email.me> at Sun, 10 Dec 2023 14:35:58,
> Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> writes
>> Vicky <vicky.ayech@gmail.com> wrote:
> []
>>> Ah, boilers I have known.....We had a Servowarm at one time. Was that
>>> the one in the form of a gas fire with boiler behind/attached? The
>
> I have that sort - the gas fire is entirely separate from the boiler,
> and is only used in extreme circumstances.
>
>>> memory is misty, probably a good thing. I know with more than one
>>> boiler the flame would go out and have to be re-lit to make it do its
>>> thing.
>>>
> I had that - the pilot light would go out increasingly often. (Initially
> I thought it was only when the wind was in a certain direction - I think
> initially it was - but eventually it got tedious.) The guy who came to
> fix it - he just replaced the unit with the pilot light in it - as a
> matter of course took the whole boiler apart and cleaned it; I didn't
> mind, I _didn't_ think he was just dong it to up the bill, he seemed a
> conscientious chap. I was amazed how clean it was anyway: it certainly
> hadn't had any attention since I moved in, which I think was at least
> ten years by that point. Natural gas burns very cleanly.
>
> (I think more modern boilers have electric ignition, rather than a pilot
> light.)
>>
>> No Vicky. McT Towers never lived with this type of set up
>>
>> Mrs McT
>>

The sensor mechanism was no more than a very basic thermocouple, of course
if you place a delicate sensor device in the middle of a flame ….

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

Joe Kerr <joe_kerr@cheerful.com> wrote:
> On 10/12/2023 23:30, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> In message <APodN.450$ogWb.246@fx14.ams1> at Sun, 10 Dec 2023 20:02:39,
>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> writes
>>> On 10-Dec-23 18:05, Vicky wrote:
>> []
>>>> for a few years.  In both the hybrid and all E i love that on cold
>>>> mornings I can heat the car with a phone command before I go out to
>>>> it.
>>
>> Technically, there's no reason why a fuel-only car can't have this,
>> though you'd have to be able to remotely start the engine; however, I
>> think hardly any such _do_ offer it.
>>>
> I'm not an expert on this but I'm pretty sure that it is fairly common
> across the pond in the areas that are unpleasantly cold in winter
> (rather than unpleasantly hot in summer). Vehicles have a small
> rectangular socket sticking put of the grill where they can be plugged
> in to the mains to heat the vehicle and the engine so it can actually be
> started.
>
>

My brother lives in Raymond, Canada and they use this system to warm (or
stop from freezing anyway) the engine block - common practice I believe.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <ul6kmd$33vui$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 11 Dec 2023 09:27:41,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
>J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
[]
>> I had that - the pilot light would go out increasingly often. (Initially
[]
>> (I think more modern boilers have electric ignition, rather than a pilot
>> light.)
[]
>The sensor mechanism was no more than a very basic thermocouple, of course
>if you place a delicate sensor device in the middle of a flame ….
>
Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and switched
the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not necessarily
metals though usually are) with different expansion coefficients, that
physically operated the valve, through a tube not dissimilar to a
bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were commoner, as more
robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics. The latter usually
identifiable by having a stiff tube.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What's awful about weird views is not the views. It's the intolerance. If
someone wants to worship the Duke of Edinburgh or a pineapple, fine. But don't
kill me if I don't agree. - Tim Rice, Radio Times 15-21 October 2011.

In message <ul6kg1$33v1d$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 11 Dec 2023 09:24:17,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
[]
>The Cardiac Care Unit nursing staff have told me not to drive until the
>medical mysteries are sorted out. That is such a shame for I was looking
>forward to being able to not drive anyway!
>
"Doctor, will I be able to play the piano when the plaster comes off?"
"I see no reason why not."
"Great - I never could before!"
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

What's awful about weird views is not the views. It's the intolerance. If
someone wants to worship the Duke of Edinburgh or a pineapple, fine. But don't
kill me if I don't agree. - Tim Rice, Radio Times 15-21 October 2011.

J. P. Gilliver <G6JPG@255soft.uk> wrote:
> In message <ul6kg1$33v1d$1@dont-email.me> at Mon, 11 Dec 2023 09:24:17,
> Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
> []
>> The Cardiac Care Unit nursing staff have told me not to drive until the
>> medical mysteries are sorted out. That is such a shame for I was looking
>> forward to being able to not drive anyway!
>>
> "Doctor, will I be able to play the piano when the plaster comes off?"
> "I see no reason why not."
> "Great - I never could before!"

As said by Clarrie Grundy on one occasion some years back.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On 11/12/2023 01:08, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> On 10-Dec-23 23:15, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

<snip>

>> I had that - the pilot light would go out increasingly often.
>> (Initially I thought it was only when the wind was in a certain
>> direction - I think initially it was - but eventually it got tedious.)

>
> ...as a gas appliance needs a steady inflow of air, it can
> accumulate a surprising amount of fluff and dust over time.

We had the situation where the pilot light was going out with increasing
frequency. I assumed it was the thermocouple (these actually generate
sufficient current to hold a solenoid valve open against a spring, and
they do wear out), but when I took the cover off the wall-mounted combi
boiler the problem was obvious.

There was, no exaggeration, a 1 1/2 inch thick carpet of dead wasps in
the bottom of the boiler, and a few around the pilot. It seems that the
warmth from the pilot light attracted them into the nice cosy space
where they danced and caroused till someone turned a hot tap on.
Whoomph! The odd one or two must have landed on the pilot flame and
extinguished it.

Rinse and repeat for several weeks. Henry dealt with the corpses and
luckily it didn't happen again, either no wasps left or one of them
managed to escape and warn the others with his dying breaths.

--
Cheers
Clive

On 11/12/2023 09:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
<snip>

> Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
> something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and switched
> the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not necessarily
> metals though usually are) with different expansion coefficients, that
> physically operated the valve, through a tube not dissimilar to a
> bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were commoner, as more
> robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics. The latter usually
> identifiable by having a stiff tube.

No electronics, the thermocouple generates enough current to hold a
solenoid in against a spring. Not enough to pull the solenoid in - you
do that by pushing a button/twisting a knob and waiting till the
thermocouple is hot enough.

--
Cheers
Clive

On Sun, 10 Dec 2023 11:42:04 +0000, Kate B <elvira@nospam.demon.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 09/12/2023 18:08, Vicky wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2023 17:37:53 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
>> <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Mined Ewe, that system was better than the very first system we had
>>> installed at our previous Toodle Villas in the seventies, it was a
>>> ‘Servowarm’ system. One delightful ‘feature’ was the three way valve with a
>>> rocking lever used to send the energy to the heating or the hot water. Any
>>> attempt to have a mixture resulted in an horrendous noise due to turbulence
>>> in the valve. The outcome being that one needed to select one route or the
>>> other and remember to change over so as to have a warm house and hot water!
>>> Just don’t get me started about the very lightweight (supposedly for fast
>>> response to heat demand) heat exchanger which had burning gas applied
>>> seconds before the pump got going to circulate the energy, and as a result,
>>> scaled up the heat exchanger body so that it ‘kettled’. We had quite a few
>>> hx’s in the first year of life!
>>
>>
>> Ah, boilers I have known.....We had a Servowarm at one time. Was that
>> the one in the form of a gas fire with boiler behind/attached? The
>> memory is misty, probably a good thing. I know with more than one
>> boiler the flame would go out and have to be re-lit to make it do its
>> thing.
>
>Here I have a new-fangled Alpha boiler controlled from my phone which it
>has taken me over a year to get used to.
>
>I miss the old system in the London house, which was a pair of
>fifty-year-old Ideal Mexico boilers set up to fire in rotation (or
>together if needed), controlled by a Drayton box which balanced external
>and internal temperature readings to keep the house steady at whichever
>temperature was required. We too had a three-way valve but it just
>controlled the heating, the hot water had separate piping.
>
>The Drayton box was monumentally sophisticated (I think it was actually
>an industrial unit) and had the bewilderingly nested menus of a nineties
>mobile phone. My husband the engineer spent many delightful hours
>tweaking lags, hystereses, and compensation flows. Oh how we shivered,
>or boiled, when the Fat Controller had a fit of the vapours and invented
>wild sensor readings. There was only one gas engineer in south London
>who knew how the boilers worked and who could fashion replacement bits.
>I often wonder how the people who bought the house are managing, but
>dare not ask...

I scanned through the online papers for whereabouts you used to live
and didn't come across any unscheduled rapid disassembly of houses
around there recently so I think you probably got away with it.

Nick

On 11-Dec-23 10:31, Clive Arthur wrote:
> On 11/12/2023 09:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> <snip>
>
>> Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
>> something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and
>> switched the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not
>> necessarily metals though usually are) with different expansion
>> coefficients, that physically operated the valve, through a tube not
>> dissimilar to a bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were
>> commoner, as more robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics.
>> The latter usually identifiable by having a stiff tube.
>
> No electronics, the thermocouple generates enough current to hold a
> solenoid in against a spring.  Not enough to pull the solenoid in - you
> do that by pushing a button/twisting a knob and waiting till the
> thermocouple is hot enough.
>
I've found that the best way to treat a boiler thermocouple is to very
pointedly buy its replacement, muttering:

"You can be replaced quite easily you know."

I did this around nine years ago, having had a series of thermocouples
die after only a couple of months.

Suitable warned, the present incumbent has worked flawlessly for the
whole nine years.

--
Sam Plusnet

Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
> On 11-Dec-23 10:31, Clive Arthur wrote:
>> On 11/12/2023 09:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>>> Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
>>> something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and
>>> switched the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not
>>> necessarily metals though usually are) with different expansion
>>> coefficients, that physically operated the valve, through a tube not
>>> dissimilar to a bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were
>>> commoner, as more robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics.
>>> The latter usually identifiable by having a stiff tube.
>>
>> No electronics, the thermocouple generates enough current to hold a
>> solenoid in against a spring.  Not enough to pull the solenoid in - you
>> do that by pushing a button/twisting a knob and waiting till the
>> thermocouple is hot enough.
>>
> I've found that the best way to treat a boiler thermocouple is to very
> pointedly buy its replacement, muttering:
>
> "You can be replaced quite easily you know."
>
> I did this around nine years ago, having had a series of thermocouples
> die after only a couple of months.
>
> Suitable warned, the present incumbent has worked flawlessly for the
> whole nine years.
>

Splutter - spluttter, phizzzz, clunk …. Brrrrr

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 09:13:30 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
<toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:

>Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>> On 11-Dec-23 10:31, Clive Arthur wrote:
>>> On 11/12/2023 09:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
>>>> something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and
>>>> switched the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not
>>>> necessarily metals though usually are) with different expansion
>>>> coefficients, that physically operated the valve, through a tube not
>>>> dissimilar to a bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were
>>>> commoner, as more robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics.
>>>> The latter usually identifiable by having a stiff tube.
>>>
>>> No electronics, the thermocouple generates enough current to hold a
>>> solenoid in against a spring.  Not enough to pull the solenoid in - you
>>> do that by pushing a button/twisting a knob and waiting till the
>>> thermocouple is hot enough.
>>>
>> I've found that the best way to treat a boiler thermocouple is to very
>> pointedly buy its replacement, muttering:
>>
>> "You can be replaced quite easily you know."
>>
>> I did this around nine years ago, having had a series of thermocouples
>> die after only a couple of months.
>>
>> Suitable warned, the present incumbent has worked flawlessly for the
>> whole nine years.
>>
>
>Splutter - spluttter, phizzzz, clunk …. Brrrrr

I wouldn't be so sure. I'm convinced of the sentience of inanimate
objects when their very exixtence is in peril.

I keep a duplicate set of cameras and accessories in Argentina so that
I don't have to lug heavy hardware back and forth. Last time I was
here, one of the cameras failed so I've brought its replacement over.
Guess what? The failed camera refuses to fail again and its
replacement is sitting quietly on the side, unused.

Nick

Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 09:13:30 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
> <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>
>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>> On 11-Dec-23 10:31, Clive Arthur wrote:
>>>> On 11/12/2023 09:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
>>>>> something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and
>>>>> switched the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not
>>>>> necessarily metals though usually are) with different expansion
>>>>> coefficients, that physically operated the valve, through a tube not
>>>>> dissimilar to a bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were
>>>>> commoner, as more robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics.
>>>>> The latter usually identifiable by having a stiff tube.
>>>>
>>>> No electronics, the thermocouple generates enough current to hold a
>>>> solenoid in against a spring.  Not enough to pull the solenoid in - you
>>>> do that by pushing a button/twisting a knob and waiting till the
>>>> thermocouple is hot enough.
>>>>
>>> I've found that the best way to treat a boiler thermocouple is to very
>>> pointedly buy its replacement, muttering:
>>>
>>> "You can be replaced quite easily you know."
>>>
>>> I did this around nine years ago, having had a series of thermocouples
>>> die after only a couple of months.
>>>
>>> Suitable warned, the present incumbent has worked flawlessly for the
>>> whole nine years.
>>>
>>
>> Splutter - spluttter, phizzzz, clunk …. Brrrrr
>
> I wouldn't be so sure. I'm convinced of the sentience of inanimate
> objects when their very exixtence is in peril.
>
> I keep a duplicate set of cameras and accessories in Argentina so that
> I don't have to lug heavy hardware back and forth. Last time I was
> here, one of the cameras failed so I've brought its replacement over.
> Guess what? The failed camera refuses to fail again and its
> replacement is sitting quietly on the side, unused.
>
> Nick
>

Snigger

Mrs McT

Chris <chris.mcmillan@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Nick Odell <nickodell49@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>> On Tue, 12 Dec 2023 09:13:30 -0000 (UTC), Mike McMillan
>> <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Sam Plusnet <not@home.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11-Dec-23 10:31, Clive Arthur wrote:
>>>>> On 11/12/2023 09:36, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Two sorts: thermocouple, i. e. two dissimilar metals, connected to
>>>>>> something that detected the varying voltage they generate, and
>>>>>> switched the gas accordingly; and two dissimilar materials (not
>>>>>> necessarily metals though usually are) with different expansion
>>>>>> coefficients, that physically operated the valve, through a tube not
>>>>>> dissimilar to a bicycle brake cable mechanism. I think the latter were
>>>>>> commoner, as more robust _and_ didn't need the sensing electronics.
>>>>>> The latter usually identifiable by having a stiff tube.
>>>>>
>>>>> No electronics, the thermocouple generates enough current to hold a
>>>>> solenoid in against a spring.  Not enough to pull the solenoid in - you
>>>>> do that by pushing a button/twisting a knob and waiting till the
>>>>> thermocouple is hot enough.
>>>>>
>>>> I've found that the best way to treat a boiler thermocouple is to very
>>>> pointedly buy its replacement, muttering:
>>>>
>>>> "You can be replaced quite easily you know."
>>>>
>>>> I did this around nine years ago, having had a series of thermocouples
>>>> die after only a couple of months.
>>>>
>>>> Suitable warned, the present incumbent has worked flawlessly for the
>>>> whole nine years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Splutter - spluttter, phizzzz, clunk …. Brrrrr
>>
>> I wouldn't be so sure. I'm convinced of the sentience of inanimate
>> objects when their very exixtence is in peril.
>>
>> I keep a duplicate set of cameras and accessories in Argentina so that
>> I don't have to lug heavy hardware back and forth. Last time I was
>> here, one of the cameras failed so I've brought its replacement over.
>> Guess what? The failed camera refuses to fail again and its
>> replacement is sitting quietly on the side, unused.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>
> Snigger
>
> Mrs McT
>
>

For AnyRats with ‘unsmart’ metere ‘cos they can’t to the the DCC, here is
some reading for you:
https://smartenergycodecompany.co.uk/download/52709/?tmstv=1702377795
Please note this will downlaod a PDF for your delectation.

--
Toodle Pip, Mike McMillan

In message <ulbqbn$37jo$1@dont-email.me> at Wed, 13 Dec 2023 08:35:03,
Mike McMillan <toodle.pip1@virginmedia.com> writes
[]
>For AnyRats with ‘unsmart’ metere ‘cos they can’t to the the
>DCC, here is
>some reading for you:
>https://smartenergycodecompany.co.uk/download/52709/?tmstv=1702377795
>Please note this will downlaod a PDF for your delectation.
>
(I presume "DCC" means "the mobile network".)

A couple of concerns (the above is about providing "smart meter"
functionality using the user's own internet connection) - both of which
I'm sure have been considered and overcome, but aren't mentioned in the
PDF:

1. Something will need to be done to prevent the user turning off their
internet (or perhaps disabling access to it to the smart
meter/controller) in order to stay on a "cheap tariff" time period. [I
presume this will be reasonably simply implementable by downloading a
schedule into the smart kit, that free-runs.]

2. There will need to be protection so that, if the consumer's access to
electricity and/or gas is cut off for whatever reason (e. g. at certain
high/low load periods, load shedding, etc.), and the internet goes down,
they have some override mechanism to turn it back on.
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Sarcasm: Barbed ire

Anyone know how to get a link to one of the intrusive ad.s on YouTube? I
accept ad.s on YouTube as a way of paying for getting the service free -
I _don't_ run any ad-blockers, for that reason. But there's one that's
really bugging me at the moment - it's for electric heaters, which "will
warm a room in seconds, for a fraction of the electricity cost" - and I
_really_ want to report them to the ASA (and anything else I can think
of). Of course, no electric heater can warm even a small _room_ in
seconds (it can warm a _person_, if they're standing right in front of
it), and if it's going to have a perceptible effect even on a person,
it's going to need to be of a fair power. They also use the word
efficient (and/or inefficient, for competing products); for an electric
heater, there is no such thing as inefficiency (unless they put out a
lot of _light_ and are right by a window).

Sorry, rant over - I just get cross when adverts mislead as blatantly as
these do. As I said, I don't mind ad.s when just pushing one product
over another (as long as they do so reasonably honestly), or are
genuinely informative.

[I'd hoped _gambling_ ones would by now have gone the way of tobacco,
and some alcohol, ones, but obviously society has changed for the worse,
and they're not ever going to. )-:]
--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

I remember a lot of questions on a vocalist forum about the problems singing
"There is a balm in Gilead" without making it sound like a security alert. -
Linda Fox in UMRA, 2010-11-19

On 13/12/2023 13:41, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> Anyone know how to get a link to one of the intrusive ad.s on YouTube? I
> accept ad.s on YouTube as a way of paying for getting the service free -
> I _don't_ run any ad-blockers, for that reason. But there's one that's
> really bugging me at the moment - it's for electric heaters, which "will
> warm a room in seconds, for a fraction of the electricity cost" - and I
> _really_ want to report them to the ASA (and anything else I can think
> of). Of course, no electric heater can warm even a small _room_ in
> seconds (it can warm a _person_, if they're standing right in front of
> it), and if it's going to have a perceptible effect even on a person,
> it's going to need to be of a fair power. They also use the word
> efficient (and/or inefficient, for competing products); for an electric
> heater, there is no such thing as inefficiency (unless they put out a
> lot of _light_ and are right by a window).

Can't answer your question, but I did listen to an episode of Sliced
Bread a while ago which talked about these heaters. Can't remember now
if they were actually categorised as BS but I am sure they weren't SB.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK