On 02/07/2023 23:14, Java Jive wrote:
> Conservatives: Self-inflicted damage to the economy from Brexshit and
> the Liz Truss economic fiasco, and of course there's also the major
> external effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War.

We will never know how successful Liz Truss could have been because the
Civil Service obstructed and blocked her. She was blamed for things
outside her control.

On 03/07/2023 07:43, Andy Burns wrote:
> charles wrote:
>
>> I've been in two all-electric London Taxis.  One certainly had an
>> owner-driver.
>
> If it's a TX5, they're petrol/electric hybrids ...
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TX5_(taxi)>
>

BEV now 40% of all "black cabs" in London. The way the wind is blowing...

https://www.cityam.com/black-cabs-londons-electric-taxis-overtake-diesel-for-first-time/

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 03/07/2023 09:14, Robin wrote:
> BEV now 40% of all "black cabs" in London. The way the wind is blowing..

Nothing to do with the 'wind' - they have been forced to change by the
taxi licensing people.

On 03/07/2023 09:19, MB wrote:
> On 03/07/2023 09:14, Robin wrote:
>> BEV now 40% of all "black cabs" in London.  The way the wind is blowing..
>
>
>
> Nothing to do with the 'wind' - they have been forced to change by the
> taxi licensing people.
>
>
Yes. But the 2018 requirement was that all new taxis must be Zero
Emission Capable (ZEC)[1] - not BEV.

But I was wrong that 40% are now BEV. I believed the reports in March
in City AM et al that there are now "fully electric" cabs. They were
counting the hybrids Andy mentioned. Sorry.

[1]

To meet the PHV ZEC requirements a vehicle must:

Emit no more than 50g/km CO2 and be capable of being operated with
no (zero) exhaust emissions for a minimum range of 10 miles (16.093 km); or
Emit no more than 75g/km CO2 exhaust emissions and be capable of
being operated with no (zero) emissions for a minimum range of 20 miles
(32.187 km)

As a minimum, the vehicle must meet the Euro 6 emissions standard if an
internal combustion engine is part of the vehicle specification (i.e.
hybrid vehicles).

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/emissions-standards-for-phvs#on-this-page-1

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

> On 03/07/2023 09:19, MB wrote:
>> On 03/07/2023 09:14, Robin wrote:
>>> BEV now 40% of all "black cabs" in London.  The way the wind is
>>> blowing..
>>
>>
>>
>> Nothing to do with the 'wind' - they have been forced to change by the
>> taxi licensing people.
>>
>>
> Yes.  But the 2018 requirement was that all new taxis must be Zero
> Emission Capable (ZEC)[1] - not BEV.
>
> But I was wrong that 40% are now BEV.  I believed the reports in March
> in City AM et al that there are now "fully electric" cabs.  They were
> counting the hybrids Andy mentioned. Sorry.

Yes, that was my point, they're not pure electric.

> [1]
>
> To meet the PHV ZEC requirements a vehicle must:
>
>     Emit no more than 50g/km CO2 and be capable of being operated with
> no (zero) exhaust emissions for a minimum range of 10 miles (16.093 km); or
>     Emit no more than 75g/km CO2 exhaust emissions and be capable of
> being operated with no (zero) emissions for a minimum range of 20 miles
> (32.187 km)
>
> As a minimum, the vehicle must meet the Euro 6 emissions standard if an
> internal combustion engine is part of the vehicle specification (i.e.
> hybrid vehicles).
>
> https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/emissions-standards-for-phvs#on-this-page-1
>

On 03/07/2023 09:50, Andy Burns wrote:
> Robin wrote:
>
>> On 03/07/2023 09:19, MB wrote:
>>> On 03/07/2023 09:14, Robin wrote:
>>>> BEV now 40% of all "black cabs" in London.  The way the wind is
>>>> blowing..
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Nothing to do with the 'wind' - they have been forced to change by
>>> the taxi licensing people.
>>>
>>>
>> Yes.  But the 2018 requirement was that all new taxis must be Zero
>> Emission Capable (ZEC)[1] - not BEV.
>>
>> But I was wrong that 40% are now BEV.  I believed the reports in March
>> in City AM et al that there are now "fully electric" cabs.  They were
>> counting the hybrids Andy mentioned. Sorry.
>
> Yes, that was my point, they're not pure electric.

Indeed. And my apology was meant to be directed particularly to you.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 08:34:05 +0100, MB <MB@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 29/06/2023 22:23, NY wrote:
>> Except that current electric cars require you to keep your existing horse(s)
>> and wait until it is / they are fed and rested before you can continue.
>
>
> In many areas, the horses would self-refuel overnight. If not then you
> can eat them.

You'd need to find a Tesco first.

In article <stmq9i54afq4u128shblas3io3lrb2ujvp@4ax.com>, Roderick
Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:12:40 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>On 29/06/2023 06:50, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>
>>> The size of replaceable battery packs wouldn't need to be the same as
>>> the built-in ones, as drivers would more readily accept a reduced
>>> range if they could rely on battery swapping being available at all
>>> fuel stations and if it could be done in minutes. Some vehicles might
>>> accommodate several battery packs for extended range, but would be
>>> capable of running on a single one.
>>
>>How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>>station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>>
>>Even my local street corner petrol station does a constant trade with 8
>>petrol pumps being occupied for many hours during the day. All the
>>tanks are underground and just enough space for the 8 pumps and parking
>>for those using the mini-Tesco. I doubt if that could be converted to
>>battery swapping for more than one car at a time and with enough spare
>>battery capacity to service more than a few 10s of vehicles.
>
>If we wanted to do it, we would find a way of managing it. Of course
>it would be far from ideal, but I think slightly less far from ideal
>than the present arrangement that effectively makes an electric car
>unusable while the built-in battery is charging.
>
>For the time being (i.e. until somebody invents a magic battery with a
>weight and a driving range comparable with a tank full of petrol and
>which can be recharged or replaced in a few minutes) I think the best
>compromise is probably a hybrid. The electric motor only works at low
>speeds, where a petrol engine is especially inefficient and can't even
>provide power down to zero speed, and because its battery doesn't need
>enough range for a full journey it can be smaller and lighter than for
>a fully electric vehicle. They seem quite popular now. I wish I could
>afford one.
>
>Rod.

Wot we want is a battery system where you can change the electrolyte
that contains the "energy" so no charge on the car, the "fluid" is
altered to have the charge in it so a much quicker turnaround.

Just needs inventing simples eh;?..

Sort of electrical petrol or diesel fuel equivalent;)..
--
Tony Sayer

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person.

Give him a keyboard, and he will reveal himself.

On 03/07/2023 11:06, tony sayer wrote:
> In article <stmq9i54afq4u128shblas3io3lrb2ujvp@4ax.com>, Roderick
> Stewart <rjfs@escapetime.myzen.co.uk> scribeth thus
>> On Thu, 29 Jun 2023 08:12:40 +0100, alan_m <junk@admac.myzen.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/06/2023 06:50, Roderick Stewart wrote:
>>>
>>>> The size of replaceable battery packs wouldn't need to be the same as
>>>> the built-in ones, as drivers would more readily accept a reduced
>>>> range if they could rely on battery swapping being available at all
>>>> fuel stations and if it could be done in minutes. Some vehicles might
>>>> accommodate several battery packs for extended range, but would be
>>>> capable of running on a single one.
>>>
>>> How big would the mega warehouse have to be at a motorway service
>>> station to cope with the number of swap outs required in a day?
>>>
>>> Even my local street corner petrol station does a constant trade with 8
>>> petrol pumps being occupied for many hours during the day. All the
>>> tanks are underground and just enough space for the 8 pumps and parking
>>> for those using the mini-Tesco. I doubt if that could be converted to
>>> battery swapping for more than one car at a time and with enough spare
>>> battery capacity to service more than a few 10s of vehicles.
>>
>> If we wanted to do it, we would find a way of managing it. Of course
>> it would be far from ideal, but I think slightly less far from ideal
>> than the present arrangement that effectively makes an electric car
>> unusable while the built-in battery is charging.
>>
>> For the time being (i.e. until somebody invents a magic battery with a
>> weight and a driving range comparable with a tank full of petrol and
>> which can be recharged or replaced in a few minutes) I think the best
>> compromise is probably a hybrid. The electric motor only works at low
>> speeds, where a petrol engine is especially inefficient and can't even
>> provide power down to zero speed, and because its battery doesn't need
>> enough range for a full journey it can be smaller and lighter than for
>> a fully electric vehicle. They seem quite popular now. I wish I could
>> afford one.
>>
>> Rod.
>
> Wot we want is a battery system where you can change the electrolyte
> that contains the "energy" so no charge on the car, the "fluid" is
> altered to have the charge in it so a much quicker turnaround.
>
> Just needs inventing simples eh;?..
>
> Sort of electrical petrol or diesel fuel equivalent;)..

What you are thinking of is called a Flow battery

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_batter

https://energy.mit.edu/news/flow-batteries-for-grid-scale-energy-storage/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/flow-battery

On 03/07/2023 08:19, MB wrote:
>
> On 02/07/2023 23:14, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> Conservatives:  Self-inflicted damage to the economy from Brexshit and
>> the Liz Truss economic fiasco, and of course there's also the major
>> external effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War.
>
> We will never know how successful Liz Truss could have been because the
> Civil Service obstructed and blocked her.  She was blamed for things
> outside her control.

Where is your *EVIDENCE* for this claim that the civil service
obstructed a British PM? If false, that would be no surprise for any
claim of yours; if true, perhaps the British Civil Service ought to be
accountable to Parliament in some way, perhaps by Parliament voting on
whether to accept the proposed team of senior officials, as happens in
the EU.

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On 02/07/2023 09:00 pm, charles wrote:
> In article <u7slap$3d50v$3@dont-email.me>, Vir Campestris
> <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 23/06/2023 08:24, MB wrote:
>>> On 22/06/2023 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>> In quite a lot of countries the poverty line is seen as a dollar a
>>>> day. I've used taxis where the off duty drivers sleep by the road.
>>>> They have nowhere else.
>>>
>>>
>>> And what is the chance of one of them being able to afford a battery
>>> car to use as a taxi and earn some money?
>
>> None whatsoever. The taxi driver does not own the car, he drives it for
>> somebody rich who owns a fleet of taxis.
>
>>
> I've been in two all-electric London Taxis. One certainly had an
> owner-driver.

I was about to make the same point. Ownership of a hackney carriage (ie,
a taxi) by the driver is the majority situation in England and Wales
(even if the owner lets out the vehicle for the night shift, though this
tends to happen only in larger cities).

But the original point seems to have referred to Third World countries,
with the mention of a dollar a day.

On 02/07/2023 23:14, Java Jive wrote:
> On 02/07/2023 21:09, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>> On 23/06/2023 15:32, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>> This time I do agree with Bob.
>>
>> Have a look at what the past few Labour and/or coalition governments
>> have managed to do to the economy. Even worse than this lot.
>
> Let's see now ...
>
> Conservatives:  Self-inflicted damage to the economy from Brexshit and
> the Liz Truss economic fiasco, and of course there's also the major
> external effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War.
>
> Labour:  Self-inflicted 2nd Iraq War, and the external effect of the
> depression, though it could be argued that that was largely caused by
> the de-regulation of the financial markets by preceding Tory governments
> coming home to roost, and therefore another self-inflicted wound by the
> Tories.
>
> So, when it comes to tanking the economy, we have a clear loser: the
> Conservatives lose by at least 2, arguably 3, needlessly self-inflicted
> wounds to 1.
>
> Also:
>
> -  Inflation is currently at its highest since 1989-1991 when the Tories
> were also in power, and in the entire post-war period has tended to peak
> when the Tories were in or had just lost power.
>
> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2647/economics/history-of-inflation-in-uk/
>
> -  Although, as I pointed out in reply to Bob, in fact the National Debt
> is currently somewhere about average over the last two centuries,
> nevertheless, as Bob has originally pointed out, it is higher than most
> of us can remember (just not for the reasons he tried to claim).
>
> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
>
> -  How many Labour PMs were even subject of a Commons Enquiry of lying
> to The House, let alone actually found guilty?  How many Labour MPs were
> found to have been reading or watching pornography within The House? How
> many Labour MPs have attempted to abuse illegally the human rights of
> immigrants by trying to deport them to an African country?
>
> Etc, etc.
>
> Only a deeply biased person could still peddle such bullshit as you do
> after the unprecedented misgovernmental fiasco of the last few years!
>
It is clear we will not agree on this. I will however make one point:
After the biggest European war since WW2, and the biggest pandemic in
100 years, I don't think the effect of Brexit is detectable. You might
want to look at the economy of Germany.

Andy

On 03/07/2023 13:43, JNugent wrote:
> On 02/07/2023 09:00 pm, charles wrote:
>> In article <u7slap$3d50v$3@dont-email.me>, Vir Campestris
>> <vir.campestris@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 23/06/2023 08:24, MB wrote:
>>>> On 22/06/2023 21:39, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>>>> In quite a lot of countries the poverty line is seen as a dollar a
>>>>> day. I've used taxis where the off duty drivers sleep by the road.
>>>>> They have nowhere else.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And what is the chance of one of them being able to afford a battery
>>>> car to use as a taxi and earn some money?
>>
>>> None whatsoever. The taxi driver does not own the car, he drives it for
>>> somebody rich who owns a fleet of taxis.
>>
>>>
>> I've been in two all-electric London Taxis.  One certainly had an
>> owner-driver.
>
> I was about to make the same point. Ownership of a hackney carriage (ie,
> a taxi) by the driver is the majority situation in England and Wales
> (even if the owner lets out the vehicle for the night shift, though this
> tends to happen only in larger cities).
>
> But the original point seems to have referred to Third World countries,
> with the mention of a dollar a day.

You are correct. I was in fact thinking of Jakarta in Indonesia.

Andy

On 03/07/2023 21:20, Vir Campestris wrote:
>
> On 02/07/2023 23:14, Java Jive wrote:
>>
>> Let's see now ...
>>
>> Conservatives:  Self-inflicted damage to the economy from Brexshit and
>> the Liz Truss economic fiasco, and of course there's also the major
>> external effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War.
>>
>> Labour:  Self-inflicted 2nd Iraq War, and the external effect of the
>> depression, though it could be argued that that was largely caused by
>> the de-regulation of the financial markets by preceding Tory
>> governments coming home to roost, and therefore another self-inflicted
>> wound by the Tories.
>>
>> So, when it comes to tanking the economy, we have a clear loser: the
>> Conservatives lose by at least 2, arguably 3, needlessly
>> self-inflicted wounds to 1.
>>
>> Also:
>>
>> -  Inflation is currently at its highest since 1989-1991 when the
>> Tories were also in power, and in the entire post-war period has
>> tended to peak when the Tories were in or had just lost power.
>>
>> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2647/economics/history-of-inflation-in-uk/
>>
>>
>> -  Although, as I pointed out in reply to Bob, in fact the National
>> Debt is currently somewhere about average over the last two centuries,
>> nevertheless, as Bob has originally pointed out, it is higher than
>> most of us can remember (just not for the reasons he tried to claim).
>>
>> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
>>
>> -  How many Labour PMs were even subject of a Commons Enquiry of lying
>> to The House, let alone actually found guilty?  How many Labour MPs
>> were found to have been reading or watching pornography within The
>> House? How many Labour MPs have attempted to abuse illegally the human
>> rights of immigrants by trying to deport them to an African country?
>>
>> Etc, etc.
>>
>> Only a deeply biased person could still peddle such bullshit as you do
>> after the unprecedented misgovernmental fiasco of the last few years!
>
> It is clear we will not agree on this. I will however make one point:
> After the biggest European war since WW2, and the biggest pandemic in
> 100 years, I don't think the effect of Brexit is detectable. You might
> want to look at the economy of Germany.

I already did, months ago. As the following links show in different
ways, it's a mixed picture, but the Brexit factor is certainly
detectable ...

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/19/britain-economic-woes-europe-figures-uk-inflation

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65962027

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/01/brexit-historic-economic-error-larry-summers-former-us-treasury-secretary

--

Fake news kills!

I may be contacted via the contact address given on my website:
www.macfh.co.uk

On Mon, 3 Jul 2023 11:06:30 +0100, tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk>
wrote:

>Wot we want is a battery system where you can change the electrolyte
>that contains the "energy" so no charge on the car, the "fluid" is
>altered to have the charge in it so a much quicker turnaround.
>
>Just needs inventing simples eh;?..

Possibly not so simples. I was never brilliant at chemistry but I
understand that the energy stored in a battery is not just in the
electrolyte but in the reactions that occur at the surface of the
electrodes. If the composition of the electrodes is also changed by
storing the energy then they would need to be replaced as well.

Having said that, I see that something called a 'flow battery' has
been suggested. This appears to be a system involving two electrolytes
that react with each other through a membrane but not with the
electrodes, so you could just replace the two liquids and the
electrodes would remain unchanged. I've never heard of this but it
sounds promising. All that needs to be worked out is the cost of the
chemicals and the logistics of handling them. Simples eh?..

Rod.

Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> wrote:
> On 03/07/2023 21:20, Vir Campestris wrote:
>>
>> On 02/07/2023 23:14, Java Jive wrote:
>>>
>>> Let's see now ...
>>>
>>> Conservatives:  Self-inflicted damage to the economy from Brexshit and
>>> the Liz Truss economic fiasco, and of course there's also the major
>>> external effects of the pandemic and the Ukraine War.
>>>
>>> Labour:  Self-inflicted 2nd Iraq War, and the external effect of the
>>> depression, though it could be argued that that was largely caused by
>>> the de-regulation of the financial markets by preceding Tory
>>> governments coming home to roost, and therefore another self-inflicted
>>> wound by the Tories.
>>>
>>> So, when it comes to tanking the economy, we have a clear loser: the
>>> Conservatives lose by at least 2, arguably 3, needlessly
>>> self-inflicted wounds to 1.
>>>
>>> Also:
>>>
>>> -  Inflation is currently at its highest since 1989-1991 when the
>>> Tories were also in power, and in the entire post-war period has
>>> tended to peak when the Tories were in or had just lost power.
>>>
>>> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2647/economics/history-of-inflation-in-uk/
>>>
>>>
>>> -  Although, as I pointed out in reply to Bob, in fact the National
>>> Debt is currently somewhere about average over the last two centuries,
>>> nevertheless, as Bob has originally pointed out, it is higher than
>>> most of us can remember (just not for the reasons he tried to claim).
>>>
>>> https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
>>>
>>> -  How many Labour PMs were even subject of a Commons Enquiry of lying
>>> to The House, let alone actually found guilty?  How many Labour MPs
>>> were found to have been reading or watching pornography within The
>>> House? How many Labour MPs have attempted to abuse illegally the human
>>> rights of immigrants by trying to deport them to an African country?
>>>
>>> Etc, etc.
>>>
>>> Only a deeply biased person could still peddle such bullshit as you do
>>> after the unprecedented misgovernmental fiasco of the last few years!
>>
>> It is clear we will not agree on this. I will however make one point:
>> After the biggest European war since WW2, and the biggest pandemic in
>> 100 years, I don't think the effect of Brexit is detectable. You might
>> want to look at the economy of Germany.
>
> I already did, months ago. As the following links show in different
> ways, it's a mixed picture, but the Brexit factor is certainly
> detectable ...
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/nov/19/britain-economic-woes-europe-figures-uk-inflation

That was written at a time when the UK economy was forecast to go into
recession. It didn’t. Germany’s did.

> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-65962027

“…academics at Oxford Economics believe food is 7% cheaper in the UK than
on average in the EU.
And official statistics show a smaller part of spending in the UK goes on
food - less than £1 in every £8 - than in France or Germany”

> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/01/brexit-historic-economic-error-larry-summers-former-us-treasury-secretary

One German manufacturer found a way to export its bicycles to the UK while
selling them at pre-Brexit prices.

The problem with businesses is that their business models couldn’t cope
with changes, and those running the businesses seemed unable to deal with
the situation. Brexit was a godsend to the inefficient , because it was
much easier to blame than management inefficiency and malaise.

--
Spike